Original thread here
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2458882#Post2458882I took this from another post because it does have importance here as well as to most other readers. So it is good to share
Case in point, look at what Pilot said. (And not picking on him, but showing how men see the option of being her friend.)
Take it for what it is and accept the positive steps forward. Do not be too afraid of the friend zone. At this point you are not even in friend zone, so friend zone is a step forward. Plus friend zone could be a stepping stone back to M. Just keep the positive momentum and see where it ends up.
What men need to realize is the high importance of having your W to respect you as a man and as her husband! I mean, if she doesn't want you for her H in her intimate and private life.......how do see being demoted to just a friend as a step forward? Do not mistakenly believe that being her "friend" is better than not being in the friend zone at all. She does not see it with the mind you see it. You have ulterior motives to get the MR back, to restore her feelings, etc. That's the furthest thing from her mind and intentions.
Think about it. You were her leader, protector and partner.....and she no longer found it attractive enough to stay in a R with you. But now you are so greatful to accept what crumbs she offers as a
friend? You think she will see you more attractive
then? Why and how could she when she so obviously thought you failed as a H?I granted you she lost respect was why she lost the attraction. So, you might as well be her gay guy friend?
You have it in the back of your mind that it will be a stepping stone back to the M. The trap, as I explained in previous post, becomes terribly painful and frustrating as you see her contented with the friend zone and you feel very "used". What is really happening is emotional blackmail.
Guys, she won't respect you even like she respects her other real friends. Know why? B/c you SETTLED to be a freakin friend instead of holding out for the position of H! In the back of her mind, she respects you more for not settling for her crumbs. If she didn't respect you in the most important position of her life, do you really think she will respect you in a lesser role? And if you could not change her mind to be your W while you were in the
higher position, what makes you think you can change her mind to be your W when you are in a
demoted position? It is a point of respect and attraction. If she doesn't have it for you in M, I doubt seriously she'll have it for you in the friends zone.
Again, I'm not picking on what Pilot said, and I know you all are newcomers and learning. I'm not trying to fight about it......but do admit to being strongly opinionated over the subject. I just want you to see how a WAW thinks so differently from you.
I agree with everything you say Sandi. So you are not picking on me. My post if I recall the OP story right was more towards when a WAW is very confrontational/hateful. So moving towards a friendship is at least a step in the right direction. But you are spot on about respect. It has to be there.
My WAW said early on that she was afraid we would not be friends. I told her of course we would not be friends. I told her she was taking a course of action which would be taking my kids away from me for at least half of their lives until they were 18. I told her I planned on having a relationship with her like my mother and father have (she was a WAW and they rarely speak at all). Her attitude towards me has shifted significantly since our S. I am no longer the pursuer. I am the indifferent confident happy guy who does not contact her except to speak to my kids. She has been making overtures more and more frequently seemingly to reestablish some kind of relationship. But I am not interested until she throws the R on the table to discuss as well as her involvement with OM. Then I will listen.
I did offer an olive branch as I mentioned in my prior post regarding helping her pay some bills. A one time deal to see if she offers up something greater in return.
Why would you second guess that decision?
You say "her" credit cards bills which makes it sound like the expenses are hers. Just because it has her name on it or she carries it, doesn't make it "her" debt, as you've explained.
If she's been a SAHM all these years, how is she suddenly supposed to pay family debts.
I think you did the right thing.
I posted this on your last thread and you didn't respond. Did I misread/misinterpret your earlier post on this subject that the things on the CC were family expenses?
If she filed, what did your response include? Have you legally separated finances and as of what date?
You can take the route that you make her pay it all and it can go in arrears and the court will find that it's debt incurred during the marriage and you will have to pay it.
Or she can go to her L and get it hammered out now, creating more expense. Is that really what you want?
There are (at least)2 aspects to marriage, the emotional and the business. Don't try to solve the emotional issues with the business/money part. Using money to try and teach her a lesson won't work. It won't make her respect you. You can't make anyone respect anything. You can scare the heck out of them, but that's not respect.
Why would you second guess that decision?
You say "her" credit cards bills which makes it sound like the expenses are hers. Just because it has her name on it or she carries it, doesn't make it "her" debt, as you've explained.
If she's been a SAHM all these years, how is she suddenly supposed to pay family debts.
I think you did the right thing.
I posted this on your last thread and you didn't respond. Did I misread/misinterpret your earlier post on this subject that the things on the CC were family expenses?
If she filed, what did your response include? Have you legally separated finances and as of what date?
You can take the route that you make her pay it all and it can go in arrears and the court will find that it's debt incurred during the marriage and you will have to pay it.
Or she can go to her L and get it hammered out now, creating more expense. Is that really what you want?
There are (at least)2 aspects to marriage, the emotional and the business. Don't try to solve the emotional issues with the business/money part. Using money to try and teach her a lesson won't work. It won't make her respect you. You can't make anyone respect anything. You can scare the heck out of them, but that's not respect.
Hi labug,
Sorry if I did not answer. Yes, the vast majority of her cc bills are family. Hence my feeling of obligation to pay them. My hesitation to pay them immediately stems from that I also have a huge amount of family bills to pay for. For every $10 of bills I have to pay, I have about $4 to pay them with. This has been the case for a couple of years. In the past I have ALWAYS paid her bills first. (please do not latch on to my terminology of hers/mine...ultimately they are family expenses, I am just identifying ownership of the names on the bills). I did this to protect her credit. The bills which were paid late, or not at all were those under my name. My credit is shot.
Yes, my wife has filed D, but she has not served me. So I am under no legal obligation at this point to do anything. We have no separation agreement. We had worked one out prior to our S where I would have made sure she had the money to pay any bill under her name. This was predicated on our cooperating when filling out the D papers to ensure we had an uncontested divorce. When she filed her D papers, she had the assistance of a L who wrote the petition in a nasty manner. Because of this, I told her I would not be able to pay the bills I had previously agreed to because of the impact it would have since we would now have a contested D.
The state we live in is a community property state. Which means assets and debts are divided equally. Since most of the assets were put in her name, and most of the debt was in my name, I gain an advantage of leverage during any negotiating should the D proceed. It was my intention that during the S, I was going to file Chapt 7 bankruptcy. However, my bankruptcy L advised me to wait until after the D to file Chapt 7...because of the leverage I had with the debt.
I really appreciate the perspective of the 2 aspects of divorce...emotional and business. I had not looked at it in that way before. Ultimately should the D proceed and come through, I fully expect and plan to pay those bills she carries. My leverage is mainly a tool to ensure the best chances of me being able to locate in an area where I have the best opportunity to restore my financial wellbeing, and ensure the kids will be living nearby.
So back to the original question, it is not that I plan on NOT paying them, it is more a question of timing. I am working 2 jobs now. My objections rise from the continuation of ensuring the bills in her name are paid on time at the expense of repairing my own financial situation. In other words, what I SHOULD do is take the bills she has to pay, put them in the pile of the bills I am paying, and they get paid as the money comes available. If they end up being paid late, then they are late just like mine. No more preferential treatment.
Does that make more sense?
Thanks again for following my S. Your advice and input is ALWAYS welcome!
Thanks for the honest response.
So I am under no legal obligation at this point to do anything.
Not true. You clearly are but I get your point about which bills you pay first. If you're entering bankruptcy, it's moot, I guess. Does your W know you'll be filing bankruptcy?
Is she working now?
(L) wrote the petition in a nasty manner.
What does that mean? Forget the language, were the terms unreasonable?
Yes, I had discussed my plan on filing Chapt 7 with W prior to our S. It is my understanding she is working. But that came from my dad who said she had put a place of employment under her FB status. I have never done anything to verify whether or not she is working. She is living at her parents so her bills would be minimal.
Nasty language aside, the terms were ridiculous and very unreasonable. I understand why it was written the way it was. You shoot for the stars and hope you hit the moon at the end of the day. However, because of this, IF/WHEN I have to file a reply, it will also have to be in a fashion where I go way out in my own favor. Ultimately I am pretty certain of where it will end up. But if I start from that point, I will only end up drifting more towards her petition in any negotiations. Paying all the bills under her name is one of the conditions. While not unreasonable, if I concede those now, I lose the ability to negotiate them in the future.
what do you mean by that?
You've entered into this with an adversarial mindset. In D things will be split pretty much equitably as far as assets, no matter how much you negotiate. I've seen it here many times and IRL, people spend 1000s on attys just to get $1000 moved to their side of the ledger. In most cases it's not the money, it's pride and wanting to teach the other a lesson.
Think of her as a business partner, what's your bottom line? When you remove the emotion and the sentiment and look at what you have as just assets, how much of it is worth spending more in atty's fees. You haven't been married long.
Please don't think I'm suggesting you give away the farm, but if you're going into bk, doesn't sound like you have a farm to give away. What was unreasonable about the original terms? Was it really the terms or the language? How it made you feel? It's all just words.
Even tho I didn't get D, I had to ask myself all these same questions. It's difficult but it's doable.
Just to add to the above, when we were contemplating D, I wanted everything and I wanted to teach my H a lesson. I was hurt and I wanted to hurt him. My thought process was, "You left me, so everything should be mine now." All emotion driven and would have led to a lot of heartache and lost $$$$ had I stayed on that track.
When I was able to see that and step back from it, things got easier.
labug,
An example of something unreasonable she is asking for is she wants to be compensated for her 'marital contribution' to our airplane. Since our airplane is owned under an LLC (strictly for liability protection...I am the sole member) her belief is that she is owed half of everything that has ever been spent on the airplane since we were married. Which would come out to about $100k for her.
You are correct. I have no farm to give away any more. I have not spent $1 on a L yet because 1) I do not have $1 to spend, and 2) Unless the kids become an issue, there really is nothing to fight over.
I probably do have an adversarial mindset when it comes to D, because that is exactly what a D is. I have spent hundreds of thousands in L fees over the years for many different lawsuits (on both sides) so I am fully aware of just how adversarial lawsuits can be. A D is no different...it is a lawsuit. My initial gut reaction when she filed the D was extremely adversarial, I will admit. However, since finding this site, and reading DB and DR as well as forums here, I have decided I will do nothing towards the D. I have not been served yet, and in our state, that means nothing has happened 'to' me yet. I have no responsibility to do anything. Legally it is as if we are still married and D has never entered the picture. IF/WHEN she serves me, then things change. She has 120 days from the time she filed (late May) to serve me, otherwise it gets dismissed. She has not said a word about D since our S began.
My reluctance to pay for anything while S stems from a defensive posture. IF I pay the cc bills under her name while S, and our D proceeds in front of a judge, I would be very hard pressed to argue I was unable to pay them if I was already paying them. I had already explained all of this to my W while we were planning our S prior to her filing. And by not paying them, my intent is not to be an ahole. My intent is to provide for my family FIRST. Until I get my financial house back in order, money is in short supply. After a D, my family is myself and my kids. So I want to be able to devote as much resources to the family. If W gets stuck with bills that drain her resources after D, well, that is not really a concern of mine after a D.
Bottom line is I have no idea where her mindset is right now. I really have not spent much time thinking about it to be honest. Her attitude has warmed significantly towards me, that is a given. She is showing much more initiative to interact with me than prior to S. She has even 'caved' on her hardline of moving back to where we lived prior to our S and seems fine with moving to the area I will be living. While these events do not mean a R is around the corner, they are positive signs. So I want to protect my steps forward, but I also want to protect myself should the D continue.
I get what you are saying, and I am extremely appreciative of your time to convey your thoughts. A big problem with expressing oneself on a median such as this as at lot of times our thoughts come out as 1 dimensional...or we state something and that becomes the narrative of our thinking. While it may seem that way for myself in a lot of instances, rest assured I am just as conflicted about my actions (past, present, and future) as the next person!
labug,
An example of something unreasonable she is asking for is she wants to be compensated for her 'marital contribution' to our airplane. Since our airplane is owned under an LLC (strictly for liability protection...I am the sole member) her belief is that she is owed half of everything that has ever been spent on the airplane since we were married. Which would come out to about $100k for her.
Why is that unreasonable? Did marital assets purchase and maintain the aircraft?
I'm not an atty, don't even play one on TV but I'd check this out with one before you get too firmly entrenched. Is it a business asset purchased and maintained with business proceeds? Otherwise, it seems it would be part hers. Again, peanut gallery advice.
I probably do have an adversarial mindset when it comes to D, because that is exactly what a D is.
It is if you allow your mind to tell you that it is. It doesn't have to be. And again, that doesn't mean you roll over and play dead,
I have spent hundreds of thousands in L fees over the years for many different lawsuits (on both sides) so I am fully aware of just how adversarial lawsuits can be.
Wow, maybe you are an adversarial guy. That's just sad. I can understand why it gets your nerves jangling.
Were the lawsuits worth whatever the outcome was?
A D is no different...it is a lawsuit.
True. And you get to define how that goes with your thoughts and your actions.
What are your values, what is your mission in life?
How do you see yourself?
What kind of father and husband would you like to be seen as?
Is "winning" a big deal for you?
I have no responsibility to do anything.
You've said this a couple of times, and I don't understand it. Can you explain more fully what you mean?
My reluctance to pay for anything while S stems from a defensive posture. IF I pay the cc bills under her name while S, and our D proceeds in front of a judge, I would be very hard pressed to argue I was unable to pay them if I was already paying them.
This is how you're choosing for this to be adversarial. Is there another way that this could be done?
If W gets stuck with bills that drain her resources after D, well, that is not really a concern of mine after a D.
Really? You have 2 babies with her who need care, so I don't see how financially kneecapping her helps them. Again, I'm not saying you roll over, just think about your motives, your choices and the consequences of those choices, not just to you. Your sons are watching you.
Bottom line is I have no idea where her mindset is right now. I really have not spent much time thinking about it to be honest. Her attitude has warmed significantly towards me, that is a given. She is showing much more initiative to interact with me than prior to S. She has even 'caved' on her hardline of moving back to where we lived prior to our S and seems fine with moving to the area I will be living. While these events do not mean a R is around the corner, they are positive signs. So I want to protect my steps forward, but I also want to protect myself should the D continue.
I don't think it matters what her mindset is, the important thing is your mindset.
And that's the only thing you can control.
Hi Pilot,
Labug you have given me some great wisdom in your post. Thank you. I like your use of the word "kneecapping" in describing hurting the W along with the 2 babies. It struck home with my sitch also.
Pilot I am an attorney but likely not one in your state. And I agree with Labug on the marital contribution on the airplane issue. To me on its face it appears quite reasonable, and not at all "unreasonable" as you suggest, but of course it all depends on the facts. But don't dismiss her claim so quickly. Be humble about this and take off your boxing gloves.
Why is that unreasonable? Did marital assets purchase and maintain the aircraft?
The airplane was a tool for personal transportation. The same as a car. It would be no different in her saying I owe her the money we put into a family car during our marriage, even though she enjoyed the use of it.
Wow, maybe you are an adversarial guy. That's just sad. I can understand why it gets your nerves jangling.
Were the lawsuits worth whatever the outcome was?
It is sad, but it is the cost of doing business in real estate development. Lawsuits were everything from defending easements to enforcing contracts. The chapt 11 I ran our development company through alone was $200k in legal fees.
As for the outcomes, they are what they are. Id love to have the legal fees back though!
(sorry Wet!!!)
What are your values, what is your mission in life?
How do you see yourself?
I have strong Christian values. I am a fair person. And a pretty decent person all things considered. There are very few people who ever have bad things to say about me.
What kind of father and husband would you like to be seen as?
Obviously the best I can be.
Is "winning" a big deal for you?
Depends on what we are talking about. I am not the guy who has to always be right. I do not feel the need to win just to prove myself to anyone. Divorce is not about winning. It is more about losing to the smallest degree possible.
You've said this a couple of times, and I don't understand it. Can you explain more fully what you mean?
By that I mean I do not HAVE to send W $xxxx.xx a month in support. I am not obligated to do anything to help her during the S. She is a young person and fully capable of earning an income. The state we reside in says we have not been married long enough to entitle her to a standard of living or alimony. Now, support for the children is a different story. I still maintain insurance for the kids and anything the kids may need she can come to me for. She has not done so to this point as she is staying with her parents. Heck, I can barely spend money on day to day stuff for the kiddos because I am staying with my father and he LOVES shopping for the little guys. Grandparents
This is how you're choosing for this to be adversarial. Is there another way that this could be done?
I had thought of different ways, including sending the money directly to her parents so it does not funnel through her. But at the end of the day, she left, she filed, and she has OM. Not exactly enthusiastic about going out of my way to make her life a disney experience.
Really? You have 2 babies with her who need care, so I don't see how financially kneecapping her helps them. Again, I'm not saying you roll over, just think about your motives, your choices and the consequences of those choices, not just to you. Your sons are watching you.
I never implied I would deprive the kids, as I never would. She is not helpless. She can get a job like the rest of the world (I think she has one right now).
I don't think it matters what her mindset is, the important thing is your mindset.
And that's the only thing you can control.
point taken!
Pilot I am an attorney but likely not one in your state. And I agree with Labug on the marital contribution on the airplane issue. To me on its face it appears quite reasonable, and not at all "unreasonable" as you suggest, but of course it all depends on the facts. But don't dismiss her claim so quickly. Be humble about this and take off your boxing gloves.
Thanks for chiming in Wet. It is a moot point anyways, because there is NO money to divide anyways. She can want want want, but if it is not there, it is not there
There can not have been a better time financially for me to get a D than right now
Yes, "she can get a job like the rest of the world." (I can hear the anger in that sentence) What was her job before?
What kind of job is she going to get after taking herself out of the work force for, what 5-6 years, to be a mother to your children? Unless she has a professional education (and that job market is difficult these days) she's going to be starting over, and having to pay daycare etc, etc.
There's often a hint of "well I made the money and all she did was stay home with the kids" in some LBH posts. Are you feeling that just a little bit?
This goes both ways, if we do something to get back at our spouse, we also hurt our children. That's why I say be transparent with your motives. Ask yourself, "Why am I doing this?"
Do you have the kids 50% of the time now?
I didn't suggest that you support her financially. My point was that the expenses on the credit card up to the time you S were family expenses and that as you said nothing has changed so they are your responsibility as the wage-earner in the household. Your contract for repayment of loans isn't with your W, it's with the CC company.
If you don't pay it, what is owed will be split at the time of D and then you'll have added fees/interest on top of what you already owe.
Same for any other assets such as cars. You either decide who gets what or they're sold.
I have strong Christian values. I am a fair person. And a pretty decent person all things considered. There are very few people who ever have bad things to say about me.
...
Obviously the best I can be.
Think about his some more. I don't know what Christian values means to you. I was raised in a very conservative Christian church and I can tell you, many of those tolks' values were all over the place.
This is where the rubber meets the road, Pilot. This experience can be your crucible if you're up to it. It sounds trite, but you get to decide whether this makes you better or bitter. Right now the bitter is winning.
What does your faith tell you about facing trials?
How this changes you is truly up to you.
Spring for a L consult. Sounds like you should have some good contacts due to your previous legal dealings.
As always labug, thanks for taking the time to interact with me during my ordeal. And please never take my "back and forth' as arguing or disagreeing with you. Discussions are my best way of learning, even if I sometimes play devils advocate against my own position.
Yes, "she can get a job like the rest of the world." (I can hear the anger in that sentence) What was her job before?
What kind of job is she going to get after taking herself out of the work force for, what 5-6 years, to be a mother to your children? Unless she has a professional education (and that job market is difficult these days) she's going to be starting over, and having to pay daycare etc, etc.
She was 6 months out of college when I met her and started dating her. She was working as an exec assistant for the local cable/internet company we used in our projects. Shortly after we dated, I gave her a job with our company which really had no responsibility...it was more to give her the freedom to travel with me and have time off whenever we wanted. I realize she will have to start from scratch with a new job. And I sympathize. After we married, I never pushed one way or another for her to work, or not work. It was always her choice. She chose not to. She enjoyed a very active social life. I absolutely see the value in SAHM. The income we had was never "my" income, it was always "our" income and I referred to it as such. As our income began to shrink and was no longer sufficient to cover all the bills, our income went to pay the bills under her name first. This was a choice I made. During this time, I never pressed for her to work, but she always knew it was an option for her. So there is no anger in my tone. My tone reflects a reality most people have to live by. Which is we cannot always have everything we want, and money does not grow on trees.
Do you have the kids 50% of the time now?
I didn't suggest that you support her financially. My point was that the expenses on the credit card up to the time you S were family expenses and that as you said nothing has changed so they are your responsibility as the wage-earner in the household. Your contract for repayment of loans isn't with your W, it's with the CC company.
If you don't pay it, what is owed will be split at the time of D and then you'll have added fees/interest on top of what you already owe.
Yes, we split the kids 50% timewise right now. I understand you are not asking or inferring full financial support. And yes, her cc bills are family expenses. As are mine, as well as all the other bills I have pilled up. My conflict comes in not in paying her cc bills in the long term, but the priority of paying her cc bills before my own bills get paid at this point. I have not paid a cc bill of mine in months, and some have even been charged off at this point. But hers have been paid. Yes, I could continue to pay her cc bills and continue to neglect my own bills. Not going to hurt my credit any, and if I do end up filing chapt 7 not really an issue. But why should she be able to cake eat? OM is good enough to fulfill her emotional needs, and possibly her physical needs. Why is OM not good enough to fulfill her financial needs? And please do not take that as a bitter statement. It is more of a rhetorical question probably asked by a lot of LBS. She wants the cake of what OM offers, and has no problem with the hurt that causes me. But wants to eat it too by having me meet her financial needs.
I have strong Christian values. I am a fair person. And a pretty decent person all things considered. There are very few people who ever have bad things to say about me.
...
Obviously the best I can be.
Think about his some more. I don't know what Christian values means to you. I was raised in a very conservative Christian church and I can tell you, many of those tolks' values were all over the place.
fair enough question. Think 10 Commandments.
This is where the rubber meets the road, Pilot. This experience can be your crucible if you're up to it. It sounds trite, but you get to decide whether this makes you better or bitter. Right now the bitter is winning.
I would not say I am bitter...although I may have started out that way. I would say it is more that I have detached to the point where I am indifferent to her problems. While I accept my actions in the past played a role to in getting our marriage where it is now, she has to accept her own actions. It is not my responsibility to make this process as comfortable and painless as possible for her. It is my responsibility to be the best dad I can be and take care of my kids. At this point I am living with my own father to save money to make sure I can provide for the kids. Paying cc bills in my name or her name are not on the list of priorities.
Spring for a L consult. Sounds like you should have some good contacts due to your previous legal dealings.
I have consulted with a L, as well as continued contact with many of my friends who are L. They all say do NOT pay her anything at this point. They encourage a much more aggressive posture than one I have adopted.
I just met my W to get my kids today. Everything was pleasant as always. We ate at Cracker Barrel and everything was upbeat and positive. Conversation was benign like last time. She did not compliment me on my appearance for the first time since we started swapping kids during our S. I had never returned the compliments to her. When saying goodbye she initiated a hug again, but it was a much shorter one than last time when she intentionally prolonged it.
No mind reading, but I am concerned as discussed earlier that maybe the 'road home' does not look too well paved for her. Perhaps some suggestions on how to smooth out that road without jeopardizing my DB efforts. She has been initiating text messages outside of kid related stuff. She also turns the facetime onto her herself when I am talking to the kids so she can idle chat. I have maintained a NC unless kid related stance. I also have not paid her any compliments. I think I have the LRT/NC/detach part down...perhaps too well.
Any suggestions from vets or those who have walked in my shoes? I have no problem continuing on the path I am on and waiting for her to make a more direct approach to discuss R. I just want to make sure she knows there still is a road home (especially since I pretty much told her there was not going to be, then went dark).
Thanks!
Pilot,
This will go against the grain here but I'll share anyway. I went 7 weeks NC (me initiating with WAW). When I finally did, she was receptive and that's when I noticed she started to increase contact and initiate contact with my mom.
I talked to her today on the phone, she wants to date again! She said that she was always the one in the R to extend the olive branch and that's why she didnt reach out sooner even though she wanted to. She didnt want that to be a part of a new relationship IF we were to reconcile.
That made no sense to me because she LEFT ME. But alas, that is how she feels.
For me, contacting WAW a few weeks ago was a thing I had to do for ME. I was tired of being stuck in paraylsis by analysis. I was either going to make things better or blow them sky high and ruin them. But either way, I needed to do something, anything.
I'm not giving you the green light to start texting her. I just wanted to give you my .02 cents.
I think there comes a time where you need to switch it up and monitor your results. For me, that was 7 weeks NC.
Thorn,
Thanks for your input. I read your posting. Great news for you! I will post over there with some thoughts.
I am sure there is some merit to testing the waters in my sitch. I am really just not sure to what extent. I did do something earlier. I had the kids at a really popular 'tourist' place for dinner. I took picts of the kids, and ended up sending one of each of the kids to her. She has done this frequently in the past 10 days or so. I do not expect any kind of response, as I assume she is working this evening. But nevertheless, I broke the NC I had been doing.
Another interesting turn (no mind reading, just journaling) was today she referred to me as her husband twice in conversation. Once when she was telling me a story about her interaction with someone in the past day or so, and another today when we were interacting with a 3rd party. I am sure it is nothing, but it has been a while since she used that term to describe me.
Ok you reached out and sent her some pics. Now lay low and let's see how she responds in the next week or so.
There's some good things happening in your sitch. Stay the course.
Well we have been texting back and forth this evening. Idle fun stuff mostly. She replied about the kid picts and left an opening for me to reply to her. I did, and a back and forth started.
Dunno if I should be doing this....
Go for it, just make sure you end the convo before she does.
I think it's great that you sent her pictures of the kids. Even when things were at their worst between my W and I, I would text her a good night picture of the kids. I started this when she started to go off the rails in hopes that it would remind her of the two sweet faces that were waiting for her. At first, I didn't think it really meant that much to her because she was so cold most of the time. Then she told me one night that it meant a lot to her that I sent those pictures and that she had been saving all of them. When school started back up for them, I would send a good morning picture from each of them and she would respond to them. There have been nights and mornings where I haven't particularly felt like sending pictures to her and she actually texts me to ask why there wasn't a morning/night picture. (I always take one)
Anyway, it's good to hear that it seems to have been a positive for you!
Thanks Thorn and top. I let her send the last text about an hour ago. I did not reply. Strangely as I was typing "top" she sent another text just now.
I have no expectations of this going anywhere. I just kinda feel like I caved on the NC for no apparent reason. Oh well, what is done is done. Things seem to be going in a pleasant direction so I will leave it at that.
Ok so our texting went on till after midnight. She ended it with a "Goodnight!"
The texts were all positive happy things. I had sent her a picture of a bushwhacker I had earlier this evening, and we talked about drinks we liked from one of our vacation spots. She wanted to make one so she did and sent me a pict. You get the gist. She had asked me to run an errand for her when we swapped kids earlier today that she is unable to do because of where she is. She asked me again tonight if I would be able to do it, I said yes, and threw in I would be looking at another school for the kids while I was out doing it. Then she threw me and said she had looked at a school where her parents are as well. 10 days ago she seemed on board with locating here, now it seems that might not be the case. So that was a negative moment. Other than that, everything went well.
Now again, I should be happy for a positive interaction. But since my W had an A and I do not know the status, am I not supposed to have these kinds of interactions until I know it is over?
Any advice on how to proceed would be greatly appreciated!
Good stuff, Pilot!
Dont worry about the A right now. The timing isn't right to talk about it IMO.
She seems to be warming up. Keep doing what works in your sitch. Timing is important.
Ok, so today was pretty much non stop texting from her. She initiated texting this morning. I was always pleasant, happy, but I never asked/text replies which would carry on an extended conversation. It would always end with her text. When I would not reply in 20-30 minutes, she would send another text...new subject. Never R talk or anything serious. Always fun stuff. Example, she would send a text with an album cover and lyrics from a song...and she would say "this is you".
So I get that it was a good day. Not sure her motives...would be mind reading to speculate. However, getting close to dinner time, while she was texting, she sent one saying she had time to facetime the kids if they were able. We had just gotten in the car, so that is always a good time since they are strapped in. She started talking to my oldest (5) asking if we were going to our regular Tuesday night place to eat. He said yes, and we were meeting a friend. Since she was on speaker, I could hear everything. She said "What? Who are you meeting?" Then my son asked me who we were meeting. I told him (and she could hear me) we were meeting the friend you have played with before. There was a pause on her side, then she resumed talking to him for a bit, then my younger son, then she got off the phone. She has not sent a text since. Heh. Whoops
Things are getting interesting, Pilot.
Is the friend you met for dinner, someone you are dating?
Not dating. And I would not really call it dinner. It was at Moes Southwest Grill. I take my kids there every Tuesday night (free kids night). It has been a tradition for a couple years. A little more difficult where I live now because the closest one is 45 minutes away. The person who joined us was the same girl I invited to our kids bday party the first week we started our S and my wife was there as well. W does not know that it was her who I was with. I am reasonably certain she may suspect, but honestly I am not concerned. This girl and I are friends...nothing physical. IF the texting stopped as a reaction to her learning I was meeting someone for dinner, I would think it odd/hypocritical for her to take that position. But there is no certainty she was reacting negatively to that news. Perhaps she had planned to not text anymore for the rest of the day anyways.
Still looking for advice on how to proceed.
Pilot,
FWIW, my H has done something similar, more than once.
Hypocritical? You betcha!
Are you surprised?
Don't worry about it until you see the smoke coming out of W's ears...
"The opposite of love isn't hate. It's APATHY."
As long as they still get mad, there is something there.
---GGG
"The opposite of love isn't hate. It's APATHY."
As long as they still get mad, there is something there.
---GGG
Never really thought of it that way. I suppose there is always that
Goatgal,
That's a great line. I love it. I'll keep reminding myself that every time I feel the chimney starting to explode
Dev
New wrinkle/problem developing. I said earlier I always thought the discussion of where the kids will end up in school this year would become an argument. About 2 weeks ago, it seemed that argument would never materialize as she seemed ok with the idea of coming to the area I am in.
We had a text discussion about schools and stuff for the kids. She is now saying she wants to stay up where she is now, and wants the kids to go to school there. Ok, so I know I only have 50% say so, and i do not get to dictate where the kids go. For that reason I validated her 'reasons' and did not shut the idea down completely. I said I would look into it. However, where she lives now is in the middle of nowhere in an economically depressed county. I would not have a clue what to do to make a living up there. She also said she was only thinking for a year. And that she has a job (from what I have hear it is a bartender/manager at a local restaurant) that will help her with future jobs. Keep in mind she also told me she got her course work in to take classes in a completely different career field yesterday.
The flip side where I live is that there is a lot of economic activity and opportunity. I can definitely recover financially much easier here. The schools (public) in this county rank amongst the best in the state as this county is the cash register for the state. The private schools are also top notch for the state and I have been looking at those this past week. While her family is not here, she does have many friends who live in this area as this is where we both lived together for 5 of our 7 years together.
While I see her point of having her family close as an advantage as well as lower cost of living, I had a couple of friends (girls) say she is reacting to what happened yesterday. I know this is all mind reading and speculation on their part, but they believe she is reacting to me possibly being with another person, and wants that to end. And to make that happen she wants me out of this area. Not far fetched as that was admittedly a reason I wanted to leave our old place and S...to get her away from OM.
So far I have been amicable to her suggestion and validated her reasonings. However, it is not high on my list of places to go. And neither one of us wants to live away from the kids. I have to be careful how I approach this as she has just as much right to pick where the kids live as I do. I plan on drafting my proposal for why they should live and go to school here, and back it up with as much factual information relating to how the kids will be better off short term as well as long term. Then she should realize she will have to do the same.
We will see....
I would definately get a free consultation with a lawyer. Once the kids are involved, it can quickly escalate.
And yes, she is probably reacting to the girl you met for dinner. Are you sure that's something you want to keep doing?
Anytime a mother sees or hears about another woman around her kids, out come the claws. Even if they were the one to leave the relationship.
My exW just about went off the deep end when I started dating and introduced my daughter to my girlfriend. It was not pretty.
Continuing from the previous post, I wanted to say our texting about the schools was pleasant and upbeat. Yesterday she had been initiating texts all day, which ended abruptly when my 5 year old said we were going to meet a friend for dinner. This morning she sent me a text letting me know she got some documents I had sent UPS to her and she closed with a THANK YOU!!!!. I said you are welcome and she sent more texts afterwards which included winks and lols and different 'cute' emoticons. Even our text discussion about moving to her hometown included all of these things. The texting on her end came to an abrupt stop when I had replied I did not know where I would live up there, but I would search the internet for places for myself.
Now, it would be mind reading to speculate as there could have been a million reasons as to why she stopped at that point. But this is twice her texting has come to a sudden halt when the subject pointed to a life of me without her in it (a possible date and a home for myself). Two times could purely be coincidental. 3 or 4 times would make a pattern. However IF, and purely speculative for the sake of discussion, but IF it was a reaction for that very reason, how would that even be possible when she was the WAS?
I have to say I was much more comfortable while being NC and detached. Out of sight out of mind. These past few days has definitely thrown everything back into my mind.
Thanks Thorn for replying. I get the whole 'around the kids thing'. And I know from her perspective she does not know what is going on so she is probably speculating, and maybe even worse casing it. The girl I met for dinner is definitely someone I would consider a relationship with should my marriage end. But the motive for meeting her was so our kids could play. I try and arrange things so my kids have a chance to interact with other kids their age. My relationship with this person has been strictly plutonic so if I do end up R, I could have a clear conscience. She even made a remark about this, and how we only meet during day light hours.
So IF she is reacting, I should probably just lay off the school talk for a week or so and let any emotions on her end simmer down. Because I do not want to base the future of my kids education on an emotional response. No decision has to be made today, but one really needs to be made in the next couple of weeks, as one of us will have to be making a move.
Hey Pilot. Sorry, I just saw you flag me down on another post. I have gotten a little behind the last few days. I scanned through this thread to get a review. I'm not clear about the plans for relocating, and it doesn't sound like you are either. Has she implied she would be moving to live "with" you, or just living with the kids in the same area? But then she says something about looking at schools near her parents, right?
Since she has not clarified the status of her A, I would move with caution. Especially since she dropped this about possibly living near her folks. She seems to be warming toward you, and this could be a positive.....but be on guard. There is much that needs to be resolved, yet. This is a fragile period when the WAW begins to show more friendliness.
By her kind of taking over the face time and turn in on herself, and the sudden increase of texting, etc., I tend to think she really misses you being there as her friend. So many LBH's mistake this gesture as her wanting to reconcile the M. She may want to only reconcile the friendship! So, proceed with extreme caution.
I suggest you continue to wait on her to initiate the contacts, unless of course, there is something important regarding the kids. I also think it would be wise to be a little less available. Like when you are out to dinner, etc., you could turn off your phone. It is a balancing act between being nice/ tolerating and indifference. You don't want to come across as cold & mean-spirited, but you cannot afford to pursue her or get gushy over her contacts. If you start initiating a bunch of contacts, she'll get disinterested and withdraw. You cannot pressure her with too much of "you", know what I mean? She
has to be the one to really "work" and "run" her a$$ off to catch you this second time around.
Don't make it too easy by trying to "help" her catch you. Yeah, you can leave the road paved smooth by not placing a lot of barriers there, but she still needs to be the one to travel down the road to get you! A WAW who's had an A, would like to avoid conversations around OM/A, or see a MC, or anything unpleasant for her.....and just pick up with the M and continue on. I don't advise any couple to do that. Have a plan and an agreement in place....before you ever agree to live under the same roof with her.
Thank you very much sandi for your time and input.
Hey Pilot. Sorry, I just saw you flag me down on another post. I have gotten a little behind the last few days. I scanned through this thread to get a review. I'm not clear about the plans for relocating, and it doesn't sound like you are either. Has she implied she would be moving to live "with" you, or just living with the kids in the same area? But then she says something about looking at schools near her parents, right?
I am NOT clear as to what her intention of relocating is, nor am I clear on if that includes any sort of moving in with me. Her texts use the words "we" when discussing it, but that could mean anything. 2 weeks ago, it seemed she was ok with the idea of relocating to where I am so the kids can go to school in this area (better schools). Now it seems she is set on staying where she is now with her parents. That threw me for a loop, and puts the potential for a confrontation on the table. After some reflection, I think the most possible reason for her wanting to stay where she is stems from economic reasons vs. any kind of reaction to anything I have done. She most likely does not see her as being able to make the move to relocate here. Just speculating though. However, if I am correct, in the best interest of the kids, it would help knowing this as I would be able to work to rectify the situation to ensure the kids are at the best schools.
Since she has not clarified the status of her A, I would move with caution. Especially since she dropped this about possibly living near her folks. She seems to be warming toward you, and this could be a positive.....but be on guard. There is much that needs to be resolved, yet. This is a fragile period when the WAW begins to show more friendliness.
Absolutely correct about being on guard. This is where I get 'lost' as I am unsure of her motives, and thereby unsure of how to proceed. She has not discussed the A or any R issues. So far all of our contact has been mostly benign but friendly, sometimes borderline flirty on her part.
By her kind of taking over the face time and turn in on herself, and the sudden increase of texting, etc., I tend to think she really misses you being there as her friend. So many LBH's mistake this gesture as her wanting to reconcile the M. She may want to only reconcile the friendship! So, proceed with extreme caution.
Yea, its the misses me as a friend part which worries me. And I believe I eluded to this as I do not want to be friends if she still has OM in her life. But I am not able to verify or even ask about it as per DB protocol. I have not concluded she wants to work on the M or R yet. The most I figure is she is testing the waters to see if I am still around, or as you say, trying to be friends. I was hoping your 'trained' eyes would help spot which path she was headed.
I suggest you continue to wait on her to initiate the contacts, unless of course, there is something important regarding the kids. I also think it would be wise to be a little less available. Like when you are out to dinner, etc., you could turn off your phone. It is a balancing act between being nice/ tolerating and indifference. You don't want to come across as cold & mean-spirited, but you cannot afford to pursue her or get gushy over her contacts. If you start initiating a bunch of contacts, she'll get disinterested and withdraw. You cannot pressure her with too much of "you", know what I mean? She
has to be the one to really "work" and "run" her a$$ off to catch you this second time around.
I have continued to require her to be the one to make contact. But your idea of becoming less available seems a valid one, and I will work towards that. I probably did get caught up in hindsight in the rush of contact she was making. Now pulling back a bit seems a wise thing. Thanks for bringing that up!
Don't make it too easy by trying to "help" her catch you. Yeah, you can leave the road paved smooth by not placing a lot of barriers there, but she still needs to be the one to travel down the road to get you! A WAW who's had an A, would like to avoid conversations around OM/A, or see a MC, or anything unpleasant for her.....and just pick up with the M and continue on. I don't advise any couple to do that. Have a plan and an agreement in place....before you ever agree to live under the same roof with her.
I agree completely about not helping her catch me. I definitely will require discussions about the A and assurances it is over before any R can proceed. Where I was confused and was hoping for advice was about the time our S began , I pretty much went from begging/wanting to work at our M, to slamming that door shut in her face, and followed it up with NC, then appearing happy without her and lots of GAL and 180s of which she has noticed. I just wanted to make sure I was able to ensure she knew there was a path back in the first place.
Again, thanks for your time Sandi. Your input is ALWAYS appreciated here!!!
I just wanted to make sure I was able to ensure she knew there was a path back in the first place.
I don't know that you should, at least until you know a lot more. You can keep your own doorsteps cleaned off (if you know what I mean) and not get into another R or complication that would hinder things if she wanted to reconcile. But I wouldn't be telling her that's what you're doing.
The way I see it is the more she is assured she can have you back whenever "she" chooses......the easier it is for her to stay undecided, play games, keep you dangling on the end of a line, etc. Why would she feel the need to work to catch you if she knows she can have you whenever she gets ready? I maintain that if WAW's who have been in an A were not so sure their H would even want them back again......or were concerned someone else might replace her in his life, it would be more effective than all the other things he's tried so hard to do.
Some men make the mistake when she drops the bomb of assuring her he'll always be there and support her no matter what, yadda, yadda. If she is a wayward wife, he shouldn't try to convince her he's going nowhere. He should make her think otherwise. If she thinks he's dumping her (instead of the other way around) it has a way of yanking her out of her fog and quickly seeing what she really wants. But all this other stuff he tries........not so effective. Or, he waits too long and then tries to leave after nothing else has worked, and so it doesn't have the same strength of effectiveness, and in some cases, not any at all. But that's JMO.
The spot you are currently in calls for good poker playing. I have seen others do it right here on this board. So, it can work in your favor. I don't think she's ready yet, but she may be tossing the idea around. And......she is definitely going to check the relationshio temperature or your emotional feelings for her. That's why this calls for a good poker player. Don't give away what you hold in your hands. Make her show her cards.
Sorry Pilot but I need to ask Sandi a question.
Sandi, I have not assured my W I would always be there but Just recently I did tell her I loved her and if she stopped A we could work on things. Did I go too far?
Sorry again Pilot.
Brilliant as always sandi. I think I am on pretty solid ground as far as giving her the impression I am already moving on, and not looking back (hence my apprehension of wanting to know the proper way of making the path clear without screwing up my efforts thus far). Sometimes I worry if my efforts have given too clear of that message.
I am definitely in the poker game right now. When we see each other swapping the kids, I am happy, outgoing, PMA, dressed well, looking fit, and all the good things you try and show when you are first dating. I am not overbearing, I do not initiate conversations nor let them drag. I always answer pleasantly and with a smile. So basically our face to face interactions have been nothing but positive. She compliments me a lot as well. She has gone as far as 'following' me at the good bye time and initiating hugs and not wanting to let go. I play it off as James Bond would. Hah. This past week she had been very aggressive in texting me...really about nothing important, just the casual benign conversations. That of course stopped after my 5 year old blurted out we were meeting a friend. So who knows how she took that. Now if she only knew what was REALLY going on in my head.... But I attribute the success of our interactions to my detachment. I really think I did well on that...especially given where I used to be.
I just do not want to be 'overly cautious' and give the wrong signal. In other words, if she is skittish, I do not want to spook her into thinking there is NO chance. I want her to know there IS a chance, but it will not be a simple 'hey im back, lets be like it was'. So for that reason I do plan on making her be the one to initiate R talk first. Then I will listen to what she has to say. But I would love to have constant feedback from those who see things from different angles as myself along the way to ensure I stay on the most effective path possible.
What is going to possibly throw a wrench into the gears of all of this is the kids school year and where they will be living. We absolutely have to have this conversation soon as the school year is approaching and my 5 year old has to be enrolled somewhere. I spoke to the school she wants to send him to and it is nothing more than a glorified daycare. A prek3-k5 church where they stick them in one room for the whole day...giving lessons till noon then letting them free play for the rest of the day. When my son was 4 at his school last year they had separate classrooms for art, spanish, PE, music, library, lego robotics, and theater. I am working to get him into a school with comparable curriculum near me right now. So since she has already stated she wants to remain where she is, and neither of us wants to be away from the kids, it means one of us has to move. I always said that I will go wherever we can offer the kids the best education and living situation. The kids will have grandparents at either place, so that cancels out. One of us will have to find a new job so that cancels out. Her job is a night job so she would not see the kids much anyways, where as I have much greater freedom in my scheduling so I can drop the kids off, as well as pick them up, and spend the evenings with them. Ultimately it comes down to the better schools are here. And she may not be able to move here financially. Then again, I may not be able to move there financially. So it has to come down to what is best for the kids. This will be an interesting conversation to say the least.
Sorry to jump in and hijack but this is me all over. Saying I'll be there for u etc. always available. Meeting WAW tomorrow to help her with a letter but have been advised by counsellor to hand all my documentation over that she needs then tell her I need my own space and that I'll get her any stuff in my name she needs but anything else I won't be able to help with. Just need to get my wording right.... and some guts!
I know the school is important to you, but I wouldn't count on her being ready by the time to enroll him. When I was kid we moved around all the time. I was in high school before I knew what it was like to attend the same school an entire term. One year I attended four schools in one term. And look how I turned out!
Seriously, I understand. But they are very young and it's important you not put yourself in a pressure cooker over the school situation. The more up tight you get about it, the less I think she'll do what you are wanting. In the big picture, you have to ask yourself which is more important, having the kids attend a better school in the fall or your M standing a better chance at reconciling maybe at midterm......or at the end of the school term. Is it worth rushing or pushing for the sake of which preschool your child attends?
(hugs)
I know the school is important to you, but I wouldn't count on her being ready by the time to enroll him.
Oh I totally agree. Which is why I fear a problem looming. I will obviously do my best to minimize any confrontation, and I already think I did a halfway decent job by not disagreeing with her idea, and validating her point of view.
Seriously, I understand. But they are very young and it's important you not put yourself in a pressure cooker over the school situation. The more up tight you get about it, the less I think she'll do what you are wanting. In the big picture, you have to ask yourself which is more important, having the kids attend a better school in the fall or your M standing a better chance at reconciling maybe at midterm......or at the end of the school term. Is it worth rushing or pushing for the sake of which preschool your child attends?
I am not in a pressure cooker so to speak. I understand they are not even in 1st grade yet. But schools have always been important in my family. I always attended a private school. The school I am looking to send my kids to is the same one I attended when I was younger. My brother as well, and he went off to Princeton at 16 as a Princeton Scholar (top 2% to be accepted) I had my own nifty choices as well. The prek3 and prek4 my oldest attended in our old town was nearly $20k a year for him. The courses and education he got there was second to none. It was definitely an elite school. I have looked at the public and private schools in my area. Only one compares. The rest (even private schools) would essentially be a step backwards in curriculum for my 5 year old. The last thing you want is your child to become bored or not challenged at such a young age which may cause lasting impressions on his future years.
So maintaining a level of excellence in my kids education is important. Now, if it was not possible to send my kids to a very nice private school, then I would accept that and put them in the very best public school I could find. Fortunately my father has agreed to pick up the tab for the private school this year for my kids as I am still on the verge of chapt 7. So now that my kids have this opportunity, it is definitely one we (as parents) should take advantage of.
As to your question of which is more important, my kids at a better school or my M standing a better chance at R by midterm. Easy answer. My kids' education.
As to your question of which is more important, my kids at a better school or my M standing a better chance at R by midterm. Easy answer. My kids' education.
Well if that's the case, then I suggest you get a shark lawyer and go get custody of the kids. That's the only way of being able to put them in the schools of your preference. Otherwise, you will never know if, or when, she may yank them up and go someplace else. And, since they both are preschool, you have many years ahead.
The kid is 5 and you've already got him going to Princeton! Let go a little. Life is going to be full of twists and turns that you can't even begin to imagine. Let up on the control switch.
I came back here to respond to your previous response to me but I guess that's moot, at least for now, based on your last statement above.
Someday you'll be in a position to slow down and really look inside. If you read the threads around here of people who are successfully DBing, not necessarily saving their marriages, the thing they have in common is that they all looked inside, dropped their defensiveness, realized they were lacking in some areas and worked like he!! to change that.
I hope you and the W can work put something that's good for all of you.
Pilot sorry to hijack your board....sandi2 please pop back for a second, I need your advice on something about tomorrow.
Labug I agree with you on that one!!!
It is not about control. It is about giving my kids the best opportunity for their future I am able. Part of that includes giving them the best education I am able. My kids are more important than me and more important than my M. I would be a pretty selfish person if I consciously made a choice to give my kids the lessor of two choices (even if for a short while) so I could possible get something I wanted. And for that, I will never apologize trying to do the best I can for my kids.
My W has always been on the same page as far as giving them the best education possible. Right now that probably conflicts with what she wants for her best interest. On the flip side, if she was able to find a good school where she was, and that was their best option, I would bend over backwards to find a way to be close to them.
I have no idea what the actual conversation will go. She may decide to go with the better school for the kids, or she may stick to her guns and push for them to be up there. If that happens, then I guess it will have to be decided by a judge.
So had another text conversation with W about kids and where they will be living. She expressed her concern that she would not be able to afford to live where I am and have the kids go to school here. I just "listened" to her texts. I had asked her for more details as to how she saw things if the kids went to school in her town. During her conversation she used phrases like "depending on our plans" (referring to me and her) and asking questions like "are you thinking we would both rent places close to <the school near me>? No mind reading but those phrases could have numerous meanings. I half wanted to ask her to clarify what she meant by 'our plans'. It just seems she has been dodging the R talk or anything that might seem like she is asking me what I thought about the R. Heck, she is DBing me!! Haha.
Our texting frequently has subsided ever since my son said we were meeting a 'friend' for dinner. She texted me a photo of a grilled cheese sandwich yesterday with the caption 'in honor of S3' (his fav food). I waited about 5 minutes, went outside with a plate broke off a leafy branch from the landscape, grabbed some pine straw and a pine cone on the plate and took a picture. I texted her the picture with the caption "in honor of you". She replied almost immediately saying she laughed out loud. (I always gave her a hard time when she ate lots of veggies saying it looked like she just went out in the yard and put stuff on her plate) Other than that and the school talk, nothing. Oh well.
I waited about 5 minutes, went outside with a plate broke off a leafy branch from the landscape, grabbed some pine straw and a pine cone on the plate and took a picture. I texted her the picture with the caption "in honor of you".
I burst out laughing when I read this. Well done! Confidence shining through.
Our texting frequently has subsided ever since my son said we were meeting a 'friend' for dinner
For Now. Thats all, I bet anything they will start increasing again. She had the initial confusion with thinking you had someone else, but then comes the phase of making sure that you are still there for her.
I also liked the picture you sent her LOL. Very clever and not over the top like pursuit. These are the little things that leave a lasting impression on them. Good job man and keep it up, you got this!
For Now. Thats all, I bet anything they will start increasing again. She had the initial confusion with thinking you had someone else, but then comes the phase of making sure that you are still there for her.
I also liked the picture you sent her LOL. Very clever and not over the top like pursuit. These are the little things that leave a lasting impression on them. Good job man and keep it up, you got this!
Not sure I'd say I've got this by any means. Our communication will undoubtably turn more confrontational over the school issue during the next week. So much for progress!
Both of you are using the schools as the major issue. I don't agree with that, but it's not my life. When the kids are older, they may resent the fact that their preschool cost the absence of both parents in the home. And if your father foots the bill this year, what happens if you aren't able next year? I know you are confident you will, but one never knows. I'm just saying you are putting a heavy price on which school to start. It just seems having a chance for a solid home life with both parents living with them should be more important.
During her conversation she used phrases like "depending on our plans" (referring to me and her) and asking questions like "are you thinking we would both rent places close to <the school near me>?
To me, it sounds as if she is wanting you to tell her something, without her asking.
Neither of you know where the other one stands in this stitch. You want to know if she's finished with OM, and it sounds as if she's wanting to know where she would live if she move to your town. The real issues are not about which school the kids attend in the months ahead, but the status of the M.
How did you respond to her question above?
As always sandi, you are on the mark.
It just seems having a chance for a solid home life with both parents living with them should be more important.
IF, and a big IF, I thought there was a better than average chance at R the M, then yea, I would prob soften my stance on even living in her town for a short period of time. However, as is commonly referred to here, no timeline setting. Some people have been DBing for years, and have even been successful after that period of time. Some quicker. But I do not even have a handle if my M can even be saved. I have seen progress yes. But that progress can mean anything from she is wanting to just be friends after the D to she is having second thoughts and wants to work on the M. I wont bother speculating on it because it would be mind reading.
To me, it sounds as if she is wanting you to tell her something, without her asking.
Neither of you know where the other one stands in this stitch. You want to know if she's finished with OM, and it sounds as if she's wanting to know where she would live if she move to your town. The real issues are not about which school the kids attend in the months ahead, but the status of the M.
It really DOES feel as if she was trying to say something, or more to the point, wanted me to say something. And I am not even suggesting she was wanting to say she wants to work on the marriage or wants to reconcile. It just seems as if she wants clarification on where I stand or even just what I am doing. She probably has a lot of unanswered questions because of my GAL, PMA, and the possibility of me even 'dating' someone else. I do not know where I stand in the situation because of DB and the rules. So for that reason, I will not broach the subject.
And yes, she DOES have concerns of where she would live if she moved here. She does not have the money to do it. Or even if she did get the money to do it, how would she support herself. One of the problems is I believe, is her expectation of lifestyle. People get by on a lot less than she would be making with a lot greater expenses needing to be met. I am not suggesting by any means living here would be easy for her. But I am not going to, at least while the D is pending, offer to do anything (per advice of L) The laws in the state where our D is pending say we have not been married long enough to entitle her to any alimony or maintain her standard of living. That does not mean a judge would not require short term assistance. But if it came to the point where it went before a judge, we would cross that bridge when we got there.
I cannot answer the question for her as to where or how she would live if she relocated here. She is an adult and those are questions for her to answer. If she asks me directly, then yes, I will get involved. Until then, it is not my place to figure it out for her.
On a separate note, W has been texting me this morning. More benign 'non essential' texts. Where she is going to have lunch...things like that. She also said she will come into town here on Wednesday to look at the school (I suggested she tour the school a few days ago, and I would go up to her place and tour schools there)
So at least there is still positive interaction...
It really DOES feel as if she was trying to say something, or more to the point, wanted me to say something. And I am not even suggesting she was wanting to say she wants to work on the marriage or wants to reconcile. It just seems as if she wants clarification on where I stand or even just what I am doing. She probably has a lot of unanswered questions because of my GAL, PMA, and the possibility of me even 'dating' someone else. I do not know where I stand in the situation because of DB and the rules. So for that reason, I will not broach the subject.
It might be worth anticipating some of these questions and how you'd answer them, just in case she gives in and asks them. Being blindsided by an unexpected question might make it harder to answer in a way that's beneficial for you.
Thanks Meghan. I intend to answer her question with a question. IF she asks what I am thinking about our R, I will ask her to tell me what SHE is thinking. As long as she starts, and I can get a handle on where she is, I can decide at that point how many of my cards to show. There is no point in showing the 'bluff' of detach and moving on if she still has no intention of working on the M. It would just set me back to the beginning. Or so that is how I see it.... Maybe someone else has another idea?
I think a question with a question is a great idea, if you think she'll go ahead and respond when you turn it back on her. I only say that because I know my H would get really annoyed with that approach (he has before, and for much lesser things), but if your W wouldn't be bothered, it seems to be the best way to get the info you need and it leaves you with a great deal of control.
I would think if my W was at the point of wanting to discuss R, she will have something, even if small, she would want to contribute. If all she wanted was to know what I was thinking, and had nothing to contribute, then I lose nothing by not talking.
Yeah Pilot you are wise to let her lead. The showing some interest but not being enthusiastic is what I would practice in the detaching realm and make sure you have tons of validiation as your first answer to her :"that must have really hurt you....I can see why you have felt that way"stuff. Great that you are still the turtle and not the hare... Slow and steady buddy. 4Cs .....like reeling in a walleye....that line is only so strong but with the right finesse you will have some good eatting ! Cheering you on
Not too much new from today. Maybe a dozen benign texts from her. I sent her a couple of videos I took while sitting with my S5 at lunch...he was being cute drawing on his menu and she was texting me about her being at a place with her parents. She is supposed to be here Wednesday to look at a couple of schools with me, but I really have no idea if she plans on going back that evening (4 hour drive) or if she plans on staying here. I guess I will know on Wednesday. Or probably sooner. I will ask the next time we are talking if she plans on leaving Thursday morning because she may not even think she is welcome to stay. This would give the implication she is welcome without me actually having to ask her to stay overnight.
So here I was wondering if my W was going to be staying overnight Wednesday when she comes into town to view the schools. She Facetimes with my S5 today, and she tells him she will be seeing him on Wednesday and bringing him back to <her parents> on Thursday. Ok, so that question answered. Should be interesting because there if she stays here, there is really only one choice and that is in my room in my bed. Being a resort town in season means I doubt she will go the hotel route. Maybe a friends place? All irrelevant anyways, but interesting to see how it plays out as *Spoiler Alert...mind reading* it will in some way play into her line of comfort.
Taking bets now...
Looking for some helpful advice. I have the detach part down, and as I have discussed earlier, probably too well. So well that I really am stuck on "reaching out". My W is coming into town tomorrow morning and we will be viewing schools. She will be staying overnight at a friends place down the street. She will be spending the day however with the kids and I, and swimming with us after the school stuff is over.
My question is, I am reasonably sure if I asked her to dinner/drinks in the evening after the kiddos are settled in for the night, she will accept. I say reasonably because I am guessing based on her past actions of reaching out plus just knowing her as a person.
Do I do this? Do I do it prior to her getting here as she was asking about what time we (me, the kids, her) were doing things so she could make plans for the rest of the time she was here? Do I wait until to tomorrow and play it by ear and hope that IF she is amicable she has not already made other plans? Or do I not even do it at all?
I am not chomping at the bit to go on a date nor am I trying to rush things, but i also recognize given her recent outreach, and the circumstances of her being here overnight, gives an opportunity to have an evening together. Its the reaching out part I am uncertain of how or even when to proceed. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!
pilot I say do it only if you don't care what her response is, meaning that if she says no then you are good either way. You have come a long way, don't loose your ground...maybe suggest to her at the pool if she would like a drink, then as the day goes by casually say "man im hungry, how about you?" then if you make it that far order drinks at dinner, that way she wont feel like you asked her out on a date, it will look like it just happened.
That was my thinking as well. My only concern is if she makes plans prior, then I will no ask. So even if she was amicable, it would have been a missed opportunity.
I hear ya...that's a pickle. If you ask her first and she says no would you feel akward at the pool with her?
not at all. the joys of detachment
then by all means ask her...maybe say something like"Hey you got plans for after the pool? I was wondering if we can grab a bite to eat and then maybe go back to my place for some desert..." ok leave the desert part out...lol but you get my drift..
Oh well. It's done. I saw an opening in our text conversation. We were discussing where we were going to meet when she got in town.
W: At Moe's or somewhere else?
Me: Moes if you want. Or <another place> or anywhere else is fine
Me: We can have moes for lunch if you would like to get something nicer for dinner after the kiddos are settled in for the evening
W: Ok that is fine.
Me: I thought we could try the 'fine dining' at <a beachy touristy spot but lots of fun>. (The fine dining is kinda a joke between us because there really is no fine dining near here)
W: Haha ok!
So it seems we will be having dinner...
dude way to go!!! happy for you buddy!!! dam now its my turn to score a dinner date...first thorton now you, happy 4 u!! ok celebration is over...get back to work...lol
Brilliant pilot. Following your story for a while. Keep up the good work man!
Thanks guys. Not sure there is any brilliance in what I'm doing. Just good at throwing darts I guess...
You are obviously aiming well my friend and not throwing blindly. Keep us informed...
Ok, here is my day. I met W at the local private school around 11ish. We toured it, and everything was pleasant. We then went to a BBq place she really likes and had a nice lunch. Again, more pleasant benign conversation (kids were with us). Then drove the 45 minutes back to my dads place i am staying, and we took the kids swimming for a couple of hours. More pleasantness. Afterwards, I gave the kids a bath, got them in their pjs, and my W and I went to this big touristy (but fun) place to have dinner. There was an hour and a half wait, so we had bushwhackers and a couple of beers while talking sitting on a pier. Nothing R or M related, just happy talk. We then had dinner, a bottle of wine, and finished off with dessert and a fireball shot (she had mentioned these in an earlier conversation). More just really happy 'first datish' kinda conversations. She complimented me left and right on how I looked, how I dressed, my cologne, how different things seemed about me...etc. She talked a lot about what she was doing up there, I gave eye contact and listened. Afterwards, we drove back to my place, went in and the kiddos were still awake. So we helped my dad tuck em into bed. We went back downstairs, and she hugged me several times at length. I helped her with her stuff out to her car so she could go stay at her friends place. She wanted to hug more and halfway looked like I could move in for a kiss. But I did not. I was more interested in the kids future...go figure. So I asked her 'so you still want the kids to be up in <her town>. She said yes. I said I am willing to go look at the schools there, but our decision has to be about what is going to give our kids the best education. I told her I understand her concerns about her being able to afford living here, but our kids have to be the primary concern. This kinda set her into a different mood. And you know what? I do not care. I know things were going great, and I know I prob could have convinced her to stay. She was moving closer and closer, but I wanted to shut that door, at least for now. For one, I did not want her to play on my emotions (if she was) to get me to agree to the kids staying up with her. If that was not her intent, but her intent was to move 'closer' to me, I wanted to shut that down as well as we have not had OM talk or discloser yet.
Do not get me wrong. There was a part of me that really wanted to just 'hook up' with her tonight. And Id say it was at least a coin toss as to whether or not that could have happened. But I chose to bring up the kid issue now because I knew it would turn the waters cold (on my terms and by my doing) on the evening we were having. Not that I think it took away from any of the positive feelings we were having. But it brings back the cold reality of why she was here in the first place. Plus I knew I was vulnerable at that moment if I let things progress and had to regain some control.
Dunno if what I did was right, but I did not want to allow anything physical to cloud my judgement. Worse case, IMO, I figured she would assume I would not be that easy to get back.
Or maybe I fudged up....
Either way, she wants me to text her in the morning so we can have breakfast and hang out with the kiddos. We planned on having lunch as well before she left to head back to her home town. She said could stay as long as Friday, but I told her I had plans.
Oh, and just so I do not seem like a complete a$$, after she left, I waited a few minutes and texted "I had a good time :)' She replied "me too :)"
I only sent that because she had told me that a couple of times prior to her leaving.
Interesting development, P-Diddy.
I have to admit, I like your style. You are staying true to your beliefs, I respect that. And I think WAW has to respect that as well.
I wouldn't bring up kid talk tomorrow. Just have a good time. You can always talk about the kids on the phone after she's left. Just focus on giving her something to think about when she makes that long drive home.
You are right about how to approach (today) Thorn. I do not plan on talking schools or anything negative. I want her to leave and drive back on a positive.
I am seriously conflicted here, and why I had hoped to get more advice prior to her arrival. Things went really well all day up to the point I threw a wrench in with the kid talk at the end of our evening. It was kinda like going on a first date and when you are on the front steps of her house about to have that first kiss you blurt out 'oh btw, i have herpes'. Hah.
My concern was things were going too well, and maybe too quickly. I want the path back smooth, but the path back HAS a toll booth so to speak. There are things she has to disclose/discuss. She had plans to stay at a friend's house last night. Well, during our evening, we were talking about the HBO/Starz shows we used to watch all the time together, and how now neither of us really watch any tv at all. One of those was the True Blood show (although I think it has gone down hill since season 1). Neither of us has watched any of the new season. I made a comment in a half hearted manner that we could always stay at my place and see how many episodes we could make it through. She said ok. I think this is what kinda got me. Because when we got back to my place and had helped put the kids to bed and we were downstairs alone together, she was initiating hugs and holding, and at the end of one, she pulled back a bit so our faces were right in front of each other, and this is where it seemed the time COULD have been right for a kiss. The look was in her eyes. My response was to smile nicely, and let go, and say I will help her get her bags into the car. As much as I wanted the night to progress, I did NOT want it to progress without certain steps being met first.
Let me be clear. I do NOT think she is ready to work on M or our R at this time. She may or may not. But I have not gotten any clear signal or indication she is there yet. Yesterday and last night could have been anything from a great 'first date' towards that path to a nice night out amongst friends. Trying to figure out which is pointless (mindreading). I do kind of get the impression she now not only wants to know what I am thinking, but why I am thinking it. An example of why I say that is one of her comments during our evening when she was talking about my appearance (lost weight, new clothes, cologne she liked...all stuff she complimented) she again wondered why I never wore the colors I was wearing while we were together. I said I just felt great and was happy (or something along those lines). When I said I was happy, she asked why. I did not answer her, but I just smiled and after a brief pause, talked about something else.
At any rate, it all goes back to my fear of undetaching. While detached my mind is at relative peace and I have more control. To allow myself to undetach takes away the two things which have been godsends to me these past couple months.
Wow, pilot, that's how it's done.
Pilot - you're doing great.
I love the idea that the path back has a toll booth. Yes - it should!
good job pilot.....baby steps, you left her yearning for that kiss. I say next time a kiss opportunity arrises you take it, you don't want to give her the impression that you just want to be friends. give her a nice peck and continue your strategy. Im taking notes for the day im in your shoes, hopefully soon.
Wow. Way to go pilot. I second oad in being jealous of you and in the give her a little kiss to show non friendship intention. But do what your gut is telling you and as for detaching....there is no rule that says you can't walk alongside the freshly mowed grass by the paved road when you need to....but then there's that darn tollbooth.
Praying wisdom for you and behind you all the way man
Im taking notes for the day im in your shoes, hopefully soon.
Dont take notes from me. I do not have a clue what I am doing. But thanks for the encouragement oad and rayzz.
She just left. She texted me in the morning, and we went and had breakfast together...kids were with my dad. Then we came back here and got the kids ready for the beach, and W kids and I went to the beach for a few hours so they could all play. Conversation again was friendly but benign. We left the beach and went to a marina restaurant and had a nice lunch. Came back here and gave the kids a bath, I got a bath, then she did. Interesting because there was none of the modesty that set in during the heat of the A and emotional crap I was pitching a few months ago.
As we were loading her car, she cornered me in the in the garage (away from the kids and my dad) and wanted another long hug. She told me thank you for the dinner, lunch, beach, and all the other stuff. I made a joke about something, and she laughed. We then loaded the kids in the car, and again, she hugged me, and kept squeezing tight over and over. My dad came out and that ended the hug. Haha. He wanted to say bye to the kids too.
She left, called me after about 30 minutes to ask about a turn she could make and if it would save time. Then sent me a text 45 minutes later about the kids falling asleep.
I am supposed to go to her town in about 10 days or so to get the kids, and look at schools up there. She did stay at her friends place, so I dunno if I am supposed to get a hotel (I dont have any friends there). I am sure she will offer for me to stay at her parents, as her parents still love me tons. I think I would rather have a hotel room than sleep on the couch at her parents. Of course, there is an ex gf I have who lives about an hour away....hahahah
How do you 'properly' limit progress until OM/A is covered? As I stated before, I really do not think W is ready to work on M. We have had a lot of progress from where we were a couple of months ago, but for all I know, it is just towards a friendship and nothing more. If that is the case, then I do not want a friendship while she is still in contact with OM. But the catch 22 is I cannot ask about OM. If her intent is to maybe rebuild our M, it would seem she is trying to ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room which is OM. That also, cannot happen. But, I cannot ask about OM.
So how do you get past this? Wait until she brings it up? What if it is never brought up by her? It would stand to reason she would NOT want to discuss OM regardless of what her intentions were. How does the subject get broached when you are uncertain if her intentions are just a friendship or possible R?
Suggestions? Thoughts? Winning lotto numbers?
Good question. I'm looking forward to hearing the answers.
I have the same questions!
Pilot, I share that same question. Not all WAS are going to come back to the LBS saying 'I'll do whatever it takes.' Those are the 'lucky' ones. I imagine some come back with the mind set of 'Let's be friendly and see if there's a future for us.' In this case, I would see no reason for WAS to want to remove OP from their life (just yet) or even address their status. I guess it would be up to each LBS to decide if that's something they're willing to accept or not??
At least that's what I struggle with.
Pilot
I'll have to read your whole thread to better advise, but can you update me on what your w has SAID she wants from you, if anything,
or are there a lot of positive interactions, without specific comments made?
I do see more value in the actual interactions than comments made, meaning actions speak louder than words.
I'll try to find your whole thread, but see if you can give the answer to the above question.
If that is the case, then I do not want a friendship while she is still in contact with OM. But the catch 22 is I cannot ask about OM
Why not?
I would ask her....I would say that things are good for you right now and that you are doing very well, but you refuse to continue down this path as long as the O/M is in the picture...set your boundary.
Pilot
I'll have to read your whole thread to better advise, but can you update me on what your w has SAID she wants from you, if anything,
or are there a lot of positive interactions, without specific comments made?
I do see more value in the actual interactions than comments made, meaning actions speak louder than words.
I'll try to find your whole thread, but see if you can give the answer to the above question.
Our interactions have been very positive. It started a few weeks ago with her initiating 'long' hugs, progressed into her sending frequent texts (non essential/kid related) and phone calls. Our only immediate 'obstacles' or potential conflict points are money for bills and where the kids will be living in 3 weeks to go to school. She has not stated anything along the lines of our M or our relationship, nor has she said she wants anything from me in terms of behavior/changes which could affect a future relationship. The only communication if you will in regards to our D is basically non communication. She filed for D 60 days ago, but never served me. She has not made mention of our D since she filed. She has 60 days give or take from now to serve me or it disappears.
Her demeanor during her 2 day trip here was even more friendly/close than any prior. She gave what COULD be interpreted as openings for progression. I emphasis COULD because there is no way of knowing. By openings I mean she was supposed to come down for 1 night, but after she was here she said she can stay an extra night. She had made plans to stay at a friends, but made a comment she would be willing to stay with me. Her frequent hugs that she never seems to want to let go of, and the tight squeezes during the hugs. Her enthusiastic acceptance when I asked her to dinner the night she was here, her making plans for us the day she was leaving (early breakfast, beach outing) when she could have easily just left. She was very heavy on the compliments, and acknowledging/thanking me for things we did, as well as stating how she was having/had a good time.
It is all positive, but at the same time, could be meaningless in regards to working on M or any kind of R other than just friendship. It could even be just a ploy to play my emotions to get what she wants (financial support, kids living with her, etc). That would be a worse case, but anything is possible.
If that is the case, then I do not want a friendship while she is still in contact with OM. But the catch 22 is I cannot ask about OM
Why not?
sandi I was under the impression the LBS is not supposed to bring up the OP.
Pilot, I share that same question. Not all WAS are going to come back to the LBS saying 'I'll do whatever it takes.' Those are the 'lucky' ones. I imagine some come back with the mind set of 'Let's be friendly and see if there's a future for us.' In this case, I would see no reason for WAS to want to remove OP from their life (just yet) or even address their status. I guess it would be up to each LBS to decide if that's something they're willing to accept or not??
At least that's what I struggle with.
From what I have read, a R or M cannot be worked on while there is OP in the picture. I can see how she might want to test the waters to see if there is even a road home. But I am not interested in being an alternative. In my situation, IF, and big IF, she was telling the truth about who OM was in the first place, odds are extremely good she has not seen him since May, and likely will not again for some time. He is supposed to be headed back to his home country. But I will not accept any contact, including email/FB/texting if I was to return. Too easy for an EA to pop back into the picture.
I would ask her....I would say that things are good for you right now and that you are doing very well, but you refuse to continue down this path as long as the O/M is in the picture...set your boundary.
Good point. But that makes the assumption I know what path she is walking down. At this point, I KNOW nothing. I can assume a lot, but am certain of nothing.
Continuing from the previous post, I wanted to say our texting about the schools was pleasant and upbeat. Yesterday she had been initiating texts all day, which ended abruptly when my 5 year old said we were going to meet a friend for dinner. This morning she sent me a text letting me know she got some documents I had sent UPS to her and she closed with a THANK YOU!!!!. I said you are welcome and she sent more texts afterwards which included winks and lols and different 'cute' emoticons. Even our text discussion about moving to her hometown included all of these things. The texting on her end came to an abrupt stop when I had replied I did not know where I would live up there, but I would search the internet for places for myself.
Now, it would be mind reading to speculate as there could have been a million reasons as to why she stopped at that point. But this is twice her texting has come to a sudden halt when the subject pointed to a life of me without her in it (a possible date and a home for myself). Two times could purely be coincidental. 3 or 4 times would make a pattern. However IF, and purely speculative for the sake of discussion, but IF it was a reaction for that very reason, how would that even be possible when she was the WAS?
You need to STOP saying this^^. Do you have amnesia? You put D papers in her face more than once & you did it first. You filled out parts of it too, and told her where "She had to fill it in". You kept telling her to "Confess all" OR get a divorce...(what kind of choice is that when we know you'd file if she did confess or have her file if she didn't....what??)
You admit you totally "reacted in emotion" but then seem to excuse it b/c after all, you were upset. Then you told her YOU wanted to wait and see before filing, presumed that = agreement, but when she filed "behind your back" and told you the next day, you continue to act as if HER actions were unfounded, out of the blue, and horribly sneaky. She reacted emotionally, like you. Stop with all the double standards.
I have to say I was much more comfortable while being NC and detached. Out of sight out of mind. These past few days has definitely thrown everything back into my mind.
And maybe SHE feels the same?
Here are some things you've written lately I want to explore.
You wrote:
One of my W's complaints with me was my lack of verbalizing affection/recognition. For example, I used to never say I love you that much. I worked on that during the first reconciliation. One of the things that drove her to her A according to what her dad said she told him was that I never would say how pretty she was etc.
Fast forward to the present. The past few meetings in person she has complimented me on my appearance. And while she looked nice, I never returned the compliments...per DB as I interpreted. Am I correct?
No you are not correct. The "rules" are NOT Rules! They are guidelines Sandi assembled based on MWD's writings. They are not meant to counter the180s you need to do or to counter the needs of your w.
She TOLD YOU that she needed WOA and you know it's one of her LL and that you have NOT fulfilled it...I cannot believe you actually think it's a "rule" to do what your wife does NOT feel loved by. I think you wanted to punish her some more or just do what's easiest for you. If you notice, except for a few financial things (and those are hotly debated by you) you take the easiest emotional path for yourself at every turn. You don't put yourself out there at all. You want to "minimize your risk" while maxing out hers.
I know it keeps within the Sandis rules,
They are NOT "Sandi's rules", they are just some general bullet points she gathered based on the books teachings. They even say "if this does not apply to your situation don't apply it" and in yours ---WOA are something that was missing in your m (and in your childhood), which your wife needs (and most women, I daresay).
but at the same time, it would be a 180 of importance. As of now, I do not plan on starting complimenting. Unless one of the many who are smarter than I chime in and tell me I am missing something.
I don't know that I'm smarter but I do know your approach of withholding compliments and words of affirmation is you choosing to NOT speak in your wife's love language and to continue in the same old destructive patterns she found so unrewarding and which you once admitted was a flaw you wanted to work on.
Stop getting amnesia.
Also,
You wrote:
She was pretty happy about the compliments during the first R. She would always say thank you or acknowledge my compliments in some way. So they worked in that regards.
So you chose to stop a behavior that was working??? Wow...
Now when I do not compliment her in return as part of my detach/DB I guess its kinda like having her ask a question and I do not answer. It almost becomes a gorilla in the room. Which is why I brought it up. I suppose I could try a small one or two next time, just to see how she responds. But I do not want to give the impression I am rushing back.
You worry she'd believe you are "rushing back"? Really? and if she thought that, it would mean, WHAT?? (You "lose"?)
it's a freaking sentence. You "suppose" you could "try a small one or two next time"...OMG, Why does it "cost" you so much to say a kind remark to your w? I think this is revealing and you need to dig a bit here.
You also wrote this about your R with your mom, (who had written you and your w a letter about working on the M, in part based on HER experience as a WAW with regrets)...
As for the relationship with my mom, I guess a part of me wishes I had a good relationship with my mom. It is not from her lack of trying, that is for sure. But I also remember how she left my dad, how she treated him, how she basically walked from me and my brother to pursue what she thought was greener grass with her OM. And when that grass turned out to be astro turf, she tried to come running back. My brother barely speaks to her period. I just found it annoying she would send that letter. I understand she had good intentions, but she really has less than 10% of the info as to what has gone on in my M.
I want to make an observation here. Seems to me that you have zero frame of reference for forgiveness in your family history.
You refuse to forgive your mom for leaving your dad, despite her MANY overtures to you and your brother (and father). They "still rarely speak."
Also, if I read it correctly, you never asked her for any type of explanation or to find out why she did what she did, nor did you want to hear if or why she regrets it.
Her letter to you and your w was borne out of hard learned lessons she had the humility to share with you and your w. I think you totally missed that. Yet It's huge.
But you were mad at her for writing a note to you two. Gosh, no offense Pilot b/c I know you want to take the high road, but IMO, that was very small of you. You are missing the big picture here.
In the grand scheme of things, your inability to forgive is probably part of why you don't address conflicts openly. You fear that "too much damage" will happen if problems are actually looked at.
Maybe that is b/c You never saw conflict resolution, you never saw forgiveness and you don't seem able to envision what redemption looks like (b/c you won't allow your mother to redeem herself, even as just a parent).
So how would you know how to do any of those? That applies to yourself, to your mom and to your wife.
What kind of legacy do you want to leave your children? Bear in mind the legacy your parents left you with...
Here are some things you've written lately I want to explore.
You wrote:
One of my W's complaints with me was my lack of verbalizing affection/recognition. For example, I used to never say I love you that much. I worked on that during the first reconciliation. One of the things that drove her to her A according to what her dad said she told him was that I never would say how pretty she was etc.
Fast forward to the present. The past few meetings in person she has complimented me on my appearance. And while she looked nice, I never returned the compliments...per DB as I interpreted. Am I correct?
No you are not correct. The "rules" are NOT Rules! They are guidelines Sandi assembled based on MWD's writings. They are not meant to counter the180s you need to do or to counter the needs of your w.
She TOLD YOU that she needed WOA and you know it's one of her LL and that you have NOT fulfilled it...I cannot believe you actually think it's a "rule" to do what your wife does NOT feel loved by. I think you wanted to punish her some more or just do what's easiest for you. If you notice, except for a few financial things (and those are hotly debated by you) you take the easiest emotional path for yourself at every turn. You don't put yourself out there at all. You want to "minimize your risk" while maxing out hers.
I know it keeps within the Sandis rules,
They are NOT "Sandi's rules", they are just some general bullet points she gathered based on the books teachings. They even say "if this does not apply to your situation don't apply it" and in yours ---WOA are something that was missing in your m (and in your childhood), which your wife needs (and most women, I daresay).
but at the same time, it would be a 180 of importance. As of now, I do not plan on starting complimenting. Unless one of the many who are smarter than I chime in and tell me I am missing something.
I don't know that I'm smarter but I do know your approach of withholding compliments and words of affirmation is you choosing to NOT speak in your wife's love language and to continue in the same old destructive patterns she found so unrewarding and which you once admitted was a flaw you wanted to work on.
Stop getting amnesia.
Believe me I struggled internally with this. Every ounce of me WANTED to return compliments, and even offer them freely. I am keenly aware of them 'working' and being something she wanted. However, it was my understanding (right or wrong) that I was to give the impression of detachment and moving on. So my actions were to basically show indifference. Yea she looked really nice when I would see her. And yes I could have very easily given a genuine reply of "thanks, you look very nice yourself'. I just did not think that was keeping in line with what was outlined in DB. Kind of like not saying "i love you". If was was wrong, i was wrong. It was not done out of apathy, but out of a conscious and controlled effort to maintain what I had understood as the best path to rebuild my marriage...as counterintuitive as it was.
And it may very well be WOA are her love language. But am I supposed to show love while she is in the middle of an A? That is a serious question btw. I thought the intent was to show her what life without me was going to be like.
I honestly have no clue as to the right path. I am guessing the best I can based on what I read, and do my best to get insight when possible. Sometimes replies to questions posted do not come in time to deal with an upcoming situation and I have to revert to the safest choice.
How do you 'properly' limit progress until OM/A is covered? As I stated before, I really do not think W is ready to work on M.
All ^^^guess work & mind reading on your end, which you do a lot of and it's part of how you got here. Remember? Why would your wife believe YOU wanted to work on the m?
Be honest here...if I were her, and I had hugged you often, reached out repeatedly, complimented you with no return comment b/c you cannot manage a single kind remark on my looks or appearance, including when I've made an effort to look good to/for you, I would think
"he's done. Maybe we can be decent co-parents" (what some folks mean by the word 'friends')...
We have had a lot of progress from where we were a couple of months ago, but for all I know, it is just towards a friendship and nothing more.
Maybe you could keep guessing and not knowing...b/c you think the "rules" are laws that are one size fits all (They are NOT!) and plus, not asking means you take no responsibility for a risk or result...right? See how self serving this can get? I know ---b/c I'm a great rationalizer. As a L, that's what I did professionally, i.e. rationalize for others choices.
And we do it very well when we are in our own marriages with our egos and pride and emotional investments...but it's a dangerous thing when we no longer recognize the difference between a well thought out HONEST approach, based on articulable goals, and a simple justification for doing what is easiest or most appealing to us, or a punitive response we label as "just" or "fair".
If that is the case, then I do not want a friendship while she is still in contact with OM. But the catch 22 is I cannot ask about OM.
Yes you can. There needs to be an R talk of some sort at some point. When there is, however that takes place or whenever (we'll get to that), THEN you have to say how you feel without first waiting to see if she takes the first risk.
Stop making this about who "caves" in first or who puts out the olive branch first. That's a scorecard habit and it's destructive and based on false pride (as opposed to healthy self respect) and not based on love. In my eyes, she has already reached out physically, more than once and you have withheld, knowingly, more than once. I'm mildly surprised she is still hanging in there.
If her intent is to maybe rebuild our M, it would seem she is trying to ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room which is OM. That also, cannot happen. But, I cannot ask about OM.
You're both ignoring it! And what about your role in things? Remember how long she put up with your "medicated self" and the campaign and the financial problems and the zero pay for all that work? Remember when you admitted she put a lot of deposits in the love bank, for months, and you didn't.... Remember?
Is it now ALL about the EA/PA she had or might have had? (I love that you have no proof an OM still exists at all, but are planning on conditions that need to be met by her, while not discussing any of this....more of the same old poor communications).
So how do you get past this? Wait until she brings it up? What if it is never brought up by her?
Gee, I don't know... maybe you constructively confront it? And maybe that requires a 3rd party who is pro marriage, to facilitate a healthy discussion.
She has to know that you ARE open to working your butt off to save this m b/c you know how good it once was and that's not a small thing...but it would take effort on both parts obviously.
She also has to know that you won't keep rehashing history and throwing the "A" (whatever it was) in her face or hang it over her head like the sword of Damacles.
I'm not sure you can do that b/c you keep bringing up the "she filed behind my back" issue and how it had "nasty" wording in it, WHILE ALSO agreeing that the lawyer was just doing his job.
You keep wanting to punish her for it, even while knowing that it's uncalled for, (mixing business and emotions), but I am more and more of the belief
that this goes back to your inability to forgive, which I think is part of the whole "shebang" here.
Meaning, if you could forgive and you knew it, you'd be a lot quicker to admit flaws in yourself (b/c you'd believe YOU could be forgiven, so it's not such a huge ordeal to admit making mistakes ). You would not be so fearful of communicating openly, b/c you'd know that bumps in the road were not fatal...
Pilot, you are not your father and she is not your mother.
Maybe there is something to that^^^ sentence you need to process??
It would stand to reason she would NOT want to discuss OM regardless of what her intentions were.
Wow, I don't agree at all. You are presuming negatively, again.
If it were me, (and about 22 years ago it almost was) I would think I'd address my "affair", WHY it happened and how we'd guard against finding ourselves there again, and I would think you'd want that too. (If you don't own your part of it, why wouldn't it happen again? That's another reason why I'd think you'd be very motivated to learn from this).
I'd be very open to doing what it takes to regain your trust. But I'd want to know that you are not going to make me climb Mt Everest for years, BEFORE you decide IF you'll do your part in the m, or before you give me a compliment (before I've "really earned it")...you can't mistreat me to 'get even" or make me "prove my love" by aborbing nasty treatment in retaliation --or watch you date or hint about dating...
BTW, why didn't you tell her "it's just a friend" when she asked who you were going with to dinner?
Pilot...I know why. But face that yourself.
In short...I think She needs as many guarantees as you do, maybe more.
How does the subject get broached when you are uncertain if her intentions are just a friendship or possible R?
Suggestions? Thoughts? Winning lotto numbers?
You talk, that's how. Yes that means taking a risk. But it's what healthy adults do, & it sure beats the guessing game.
Continuing from the previous post, I wanted to say our texting about the schools was pleasant and upbeat. Yesterday she had been initiating texts all day, which ended abruptly when my 5 year old said we were going to meet a friend for dinner. This morning she sent me a text letting me know she got some documents I had sent UPS to her and she closed with a THANK YOU!!!!. I said you are welcome and she sent more texts afterwards which included winks and lols and different 'cute' emoticons. Even our text discussion about moving to her hometown included all of these things. The texting on her end came to an abrupt stop when I had replied I did not know where I would live up there, but I would search the internet for places for myself.
Now, it would be mind reading to speculate as there could have been a million reasons as to why she stopped at that point. But this is twice her texting has come to a sudden halt when the subject pointed to a life of me without her in it (a possible date and a home for myself). Two times could purely be coincidental. 3 or 4 times would make a pattern. However IF, and purely speculative for the sake of discussion, but IF it was a reaction for that very reason, how would that even be possible when she was the WAS?
You need to STOP saying this^^. Do you have amnesia? You put D papers in her face more than once & you did it first. You filled out parts of it too, and told her where "She had to fill it in". You kept telling her to "Confess all" OR get a divorce...(what kind of choice is that when we know you'd file if she did confess or have her file if she didn't....what??)
You admit you totally "reacted in emotion" but then seem to excuse it b/c after all, you were upset. Then you told her YOU wanted to wait and see before filing, presumed that = agreement, but when she filed "behind your back" and told you the next day, you continue to act as if HER actions were unfounded, out of the blue, and horribly sneaky. She reacted emotionally, like you. Stop with all the double standards.
I have to say I was much more comfortable while being NC and detached. Out of sight out of mind. These past few days has definitely thrown everything back into my mind.
And maybe SHE feels the same? I use the phrase 'behind my back' because she specifically addressed me one afternoon, letting me know she had the papers filled out and was ready to file. She wanted to know what I thought we should do. I asked her if we could discuss this later this evening. She agreed. Even though she agreed, she went and filed before that evening. So whether you call it behind my back, or something else, it was not expected per a very civil and somewhat friendly conversation minutes before she got into the car to file.
As for the content, we had agreed we would discuss terms/custody and come up with the best agreement we could, and anything we did not agree on, fill in the spot where you could put things you did not agree on, and a judge would help figure it out. We were going to leave the lawyers out of it if possible. She went to a L, as did I for a consultation. The L she went to helped her fill out her petition. He did it as if he was representing her, and by that I mean he did it in an aggressive fashion. It just cemented that we would have a contested divorce because of the way it was written, and the way it portrayed me, and other content. I do not blame the L. That is what he is supposed to do. It just complicated things IF the intention was to keep things as amicable as possible.
I am not upset at the fact she filed, as we had previously discussed the benefits of filing before our S because we would be leaving the state. It was that she filed after asking to talk about it, but before we actually talked about it (8 hour span). And then not even telling me, but allowing me to tell her why I think it would now be best to wait and see if a S would make a difference. Just seemed underhanded.
Again, I am not perfect. I did throw it in her face under emotional duress. And I was pushing for it. And I get that maybe she did it thinking she had to take a defensive position in fear of something I might do. She did mention she thought I had gone to my home state the week prior to file and not tell her.
Detachment is not indifference.
Here...a post originally by a DBer named Peanut.
II. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done.
Our ego gets wounded, and then we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
We cannot control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness.
If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals. On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them."
Hope that helps. Complimenting your wife costs you nothing emotionally or in any other way. Considering it would have been a reciprocal compliment anyhow, it appears like a cold response in return for a warm one from her.
Also,
You wrote:
She was pretty happy about the compliments during the first R. She would always say thank you or acknowledge my compliments in some way. So they worked in that regards.
So you chose to stop a behavior that was working??? Wow...
Now when I do not compliment her in return as part of my detach/DB I guess its kinda like having her ask a question and I do not answer. It almost becomes a gorilla in the room. Which is why I brought it up. I suppose I could try a small one or two next time, just to see how she responds. But I do not want to give the impression I am rushing back.
You worry she'd believe you are "rushing back"? Really? and if she thought that, it would mean, WHAT?? (You "lose"?)
it's a freaking sentence. You "suppose" you could "try a small one or two next time"...OMG, Why does it "cost" you so much to say a kind remark to your w? I think this is revealing and you need to dig a bit here.
The 'cost' I was afraid of paying was backsliding. Remember, the concept of DB was extremely new to me, maybe a month or so. And when people here say sometimes STFU is the best course of action, I chose STFU. I knew I was making progress, and I did not want to ruin it. I would rather take the tortoise approach and get to the finish line than the rabbit approach and miss my exit. Again, I am not perfect, and I will not do this right most of the time. I posted weeks ago about wanting to make sure she knew there was a road back, but I also wanted to make sure she knew the road was not as simple as we pick up where we were prior to all of this. The A and OM has to be discussed/disclosed to move forward. And while I do not think we are there yet, I do not want to get it wrong and miss the proper or best opportunity to ensure the discussion/disclosure happens prior to something physical taking place between us. And I was really concerned about that happening the other day.
As for my mom, yea, maybe I never forgave her completely. I have had a much better relationship with her than my brother, but that means little. She really screwed my dad over. I have heard her reasonings. I heard the bs from her OM at the time. I even told my W when this first started I saw us having the same relationship as my dad does with my mom. It is a flaw I have for sure. I will not deny or hide from it.
I get why my mom wrote what she did. I get it was done from the heart and with good intentions. I just wish she had not.
How do you 'properly' limit progress until OM/A is covered? As I stated before, I really do not think W is ready to work on M.
All ^^^guess work & mind reading on your end, which you do a lot of and it's part of how you got here. Remember? Why would your wife believe YOU wanted to work on the m?
Be honest here...if I were her, and I had hugged you often, reached out repeatedly, complimented you with no return comment b/c you cannot manage a single kind remark on my looks or appearance, including when I've made an effort to look good to/for you, I would think
"he's done. Maybe we can be decent co-parents" (what some folks mean by the word 'friends')...
We have had a lot of progress from where we were a couple of months ago, but for all I know, it is just towards a friendship and nothing more.
Maybe you could keep guessing and not knowing...b/c you think the "rules" are laws that are one size fits all (They are NOT!) and plus, not asking means you take no responsibility for a risk or result...right? See how self serving this can get? I know ---b/c I'm a great rationalizer. As a L, that's what I did professionally, i.e. rationalize for others choices.
And we do it very well when we are in our own marriages with our egos and pride and emotional investments...but it's a dangerous thing when we no longer recognize the difference between a well thought out HONEST approach, based on articulable goals, and a simple justification for doing what is easiest or most appealing to us, or a punitive response we label as "just" or "fair".
If that is the case, then I do not want a friendship while she is still in contact with OM. But the catch 22 is I cannot ask about OM.
Yes you can. There needs to be an R talk of some sort at some point. When there is, however that takes place or whenever (we'll get to that), THEN you have to say how you feel without first waiting to see if she takes the first risk.
Stop making this about who "caves" in first or who puts out the olive branch first. That's a scorecard habit and it's destructive and based on false pride (as opposed to healthy self respect) and not based on love. In my eyes, she has already reached out physically, more than once and you have withheld, knowingly, more than once. I'm mildly surprised she is still hanging in there.
If her intent is to maybe rebuild our M, it would seem she is trying to ignore the 800 lb gorilla in the room which is OM. That also, cannot happen. But, I cannot ask about OM.
You're both ignoring it! And what about your role in things? Remember how long she put up with your "medicated self" and the campaign and the financial problems and the zero pay for all that work? Remember when you admitted she put a lot of deposits in the love bank, for months, and you didn't.... Remember?
Is it now ALL about the EA/PA she had or might have had? (I love that you have no proof an OM still exists at all, but are planning on conditions that need to be met by her, while not discussing any of this....more of the same old poor communications).
So how do you get past this? Wait until she brings it up? What if it is never brought up by her?
Gee, I don't know... maybe you constructively confront it? And maybe that requires a 3rd party who is pro marriage, to facilitate a healthy discussion.
She has to know that you ARE open to working your butt off to save this m b/c you know how good it once was and that's not a small thing...but it would take effort on both parts obviously.
She also has to know that you won't keep rehashing history and throwing the "A" (whatever it was) in her face or hang it over her head like the sword of Damacles.
I'm not sure you can do that b/c you keep bringing up the "she filed behind my back" issue and how it had "nasty" wording in it, WHILE ALSO agreeing that the lawyer was just doing his job.
You keep wanting to punish her for it, even while knowing that it's uncalled for, (mixing business and emotions), but I am more and more of the belief
that this goes back to your inability to forgive, which I think is part of the whole "shebang" here.
Meaning, if you could forgive and you knew it, you'd be a lot quicker to admit flaws in yourself (b/c you'd believe YOU could be forgiven, so it's not such a huge ordeal to admit making mistakes ). You would not be so fearful of communicating openly, b/c you'd know that bumps in the road were not fatal...
Pilot, you are not your father and she is not your mother.
Maybe there is something to that^^^ sentence you need to process??
It would stand to reason she would NOT want to discuss OM regardless of what her intentions were.
Wow, I don't agree at all. You are presuming negatively, again.
If it were me, (and about 22 years ago it almost was) I would think I'd address my "affair", WHY it happened and how we'd guard against finding ourselves there again, and I would think you'd want that too. (If you don't own your part of it, why wouldn't it happen again? That's another reason why I'd think you'd be very motivated to learn from this).
I'd be very open to doing what it takes to regain your trust. But I'd want to know that you are not going to make me climb Mt Everest for years, BEFORE you decide IF you'll do your part in the m, or before you give me a compliment (before I've "really earned it")...you can't mistreat me to 'get even" or make me "prove my love" by aborbing nasty treatment in retaliation --or watch you date or hint about dating...
BTW, why didn't you tell her "it's just a friend" when she asked who you were going with to dinner?
Pilot...I know why. But face that yourself.
In short...I think She needs as many guarantees as you do, maybe more.
How does the subject get broached when you are uncertain if her intentions are just a friendship or possible R?
Suggestions? Thoughts? Winning lotto numbers?
You talk, that's how. Yes that means taking a risk. But it's what healthy adults do, & it sure beats the guessing game.You are right. She probably has no reason to believe I want to work at our M or R. Some of it was by design, and some of it just fell into place. I suppose I could take a risk and bring it up. I had kind of hoped and maybe somewhat expected she would bring it up.
That is why I am here asking the questions. So people like you who have been down this road can help point me in the right direction.
As always 25, I appreciate your input and insight. You are always welcome to chime in on my thread
Pilot,
I get why my mom wrote what she did. I get it was done from the heart and with good intentions. I just wish she had not.
Why not? Because you feel compelled to side with your Dad and display your loyalty to him? Or does the letter bring up uncomfortable truths under the surface about your M?
PIlot
Hey I'm not trying to do a tit for tat thing here but there is a lot in your thread and much of it overlaps with other people's issues so maybe it's worth looking at this in depth.
In other words I'm not trying to pick apart everything you say but I will say there are positives in your situation I hope you won't over look.
I sense a lot of love on both sides but wounded egos, too. You both sound prideful and resentful, and neither of you talks openly enough.
I think you are understating how wounded she was and for how long. I really don't think you recall how you behaved while medicated (I had surgery in November and the pain meds were wonderfully effective, but I have very little recall of the holidays and that's a lot of weeks!)
Thank God I was confined to an 8 ft radius (broken leg/hip) so I can't have done too much damage. But don't skim over that so frequently, or so easily, b/c I think you tend to ignore how ignored she was and for how long. That's not to mention the whole campaign ordeal, for which you both earned nothing. I noticed you again mentioned her inability to earn much, but again, you minimize or skim over how much she invested in YOU. HER career did not benefit by you running, but yours probably did. So you do have "something to show for it", whereas she doesn't. And aren't you both living at parents homes right now?
Anyhow, let's check this out...
You wrote:
Yes, I had discussed my plan on filing Chapt 7 with W prior to our S. It is my understanding she is working. But that came from my dad who said she had put a place of employment under her FB status. I have never done anything to verify whether or not she is working. She is living at her parents so her bills would be minimal.
See how the communication has improved so much....(yes, I'm being snarky. But this is an issue YOU identified as a problem. Yet you are continuing with it as before). Still No direct talks that are "uncomfortable"...and whole a lot of mind reading and planning based on things that might not be real or ever happen. How needlessly painful and what a waste of time.
Continue this old negative behavior, at your peril.
Nasty language aside, the terms were ridiculous and very unreasonable.
Excuse me but YOU said that her lawyer "was just doing his job" to make you look bad and get her the most he could (zealous representation, etc). Sure, Your pride was wounded and your feelings were hurt, but if I understood you correctly, nothing she said was a lie. And you had gotten over it, so why keep bringing it up?
May I submit why I think you do harp on it so often? It goes back to the inability to forgive or let go of past hurts. It's what you learned from your parents and continue practicing. But Pilot, I think forgiveness is a learned skill and though it's a critical element of Christian belief, which you profess to have, it's not taught to us nearly enough. I also know of NO long term marriage that is happy, that did not contain chunks of forgiveness on both sides, usually one side more than the other.
The marriage vows often say "from this day forward", which I think is genius and mandatory.
you also wrote:
[/b]
I understand why it was written the way it was. You shoot for the stars and hope you hit the moon at the end of the day. However, because of this, IF/WHEN I have to file a reply, it will also have to be in a fashion where I go way out in my own favor. Ultimately I am pretty certain of where it will end up. But if I start from that point, I will only end up drifting more towards her petition in any negotiations. Paying all the bills under her name is one of the conditions. While not unreasonable, if I concede those now, I lose the ability to negotiate them in the future.
This^^^ is all part of legal strategizing which you keep wanting to punish her for. Either let it go, compartmentalize it (business versus emotion) or fall on your sword for it.
But there are too many mixed signals on this. Move on...
____
Pilot,
I get why my mom wrote what she did. I get it was done from the heart and with good intentions. I just wish she had not.
Why not? Because you feel compelled to side with your Dad and display your loyalty to him? Or does the letter bring up uncomfortable truths under the surface about your M?
One it was a letter based on less than all of the information available. Two, letters go against the non pursuing. And last, maybe some resentment at her trying to insert herself into something important in my life when she made a choice to be absent from much of it.
Pilot,
Oh boy..boy..it is clear that you still have tons of unresolved anger and resentment toward your mother. Better get working on the forgiveness process. From that point and on, maybe...just maybe...you can mend and restore your broken relationship with your mother. Why not be the bigger man here?
I would hope that your heart isn't made out of granite.
Here is the thing...
I have parents who were both WASes and engaged in affairs on both sides. Divorces, acrimonious times, and alll that. I look at them as humans who tried THEIR best at that time and their past actions didn't lessen my love for them at all. Yeah, they sure could have handled certain things differently. They know that I have complete unconditional love for them.
Why? Because I forgive them for their stupid actions.
Pilot,
I get why my mom wrote what she did. I get it was done from the heart and with good intentions. I just wish she had not.
Why not? Because you feel compelled to side with your Dad and display your loyalty to him? Or does the letter bring up uncomfortable truths under the surface about your M?
One it was a letter based on less than all of the information available. Two, letters go against the non pursuing.
Pilot, I am screwing my head in the ceiling at this moment. 
Please stop saying it's against the RULES...OMG...
And the letter came from your mother, not you. The "rules' would not apply anyhow, not to mention that they are guidelines and merely assembled one afternoon and used as generalities
with the proviso that you NEED to know your own situation well enough to know when NOT to apply something. Hence your claim about the confusion re: "not complimenting your wife'
even though it's her LL and
even though it was an identified problem between you two AND
even though you knew it was having positive results
you claim to believe you had to stop doing what worked, b/c it was "pursuit".
Pilot, I call BS on that. You're a lot smarter than this^^. At least be more honest with yourself if not us.
And last, maybe some resentment at her trying to insert herself into something important in my life when she made a choice to be absent from much of it.
Okay, So you are still punishing your mom. She is either literally unforgivable and or you are literally incapable of forgiving. So, what do you want to teach your kids about this?
(What about when they "fail" you?)
And YES there is a pattern here.
Do you see it?
Pilot,
You may not realize how you're coming across to us here.
What I am seeing from you here is that situations are very Black & White to you as evidenced by your comments that this "falls under Sandi's rules" or "is contrary to DBing." How's that helping you develop and maintain healthy relationships?
Flexibility and acceptance, buddy....ok?
sorry pilot..my turn to hijack....;) 25yrs do you think you can look at my sitch your advice will be most appreciated
sorry pilot..my turn to hijack....;) 25yrs do you think you can look at my sitch your advice will be most appreciated
Done.
I sense a lot of love on both sides but wounded egos, too. You both sound prideful and resentful, and neither of you talks openly enough.
Probably a lot of truth in that.
I think you are understating how wounded she was and for how long. I really don't think you recall how you behaved while medicated (I had surgery in November and the pain meds were wonderfully effective, but I have very little recall of the holidays and that's a lot of weeks!)
You bring up a good point. I honestly have not given much consideration as to what my actions were during this time. It was mostly a blur. I know my W coined the phrase "I am just going to blame the medication for that" during my medicated time. So yea, I will begin to give this serious thought and consideration.
See how the communication has improved so much....(yes, I'm being snarky. But this is an issue YOU identified as a problem. Yet you are continuing with it as before). Still No direct talks that are "uncomfortable"...and whole a lot of mind reading and planning based on things that might not be real or ever happen. How needlessly painful and what a waste of time.
Continue this old negative behavior, at your peril.
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I get what you are saying 100%. But this was during a time I was 'dark' NC and detached. I had blocked her on FB and never once took a peek at it through mine or anyone else's account. <funny story about the FB blocking. When we were at dinner, a banker who used to be a good friend of ours stopped by our table and was talking to us. After he left, my W was saying how she had unfriended the guy's wife and him from her fb and I replied in a lighthearted manner 'hey, I unfriended you" She laughed> I never asked anyone who may know her anything about what she was doing. I had to separate like this in order to detach.
I get it that we are now communicating more often, and in very friendly terms while face to face. I still do not call her or initiate texting. I am not saying I am right, I am saying I have NO IDEA how to proceed. Should I initiate a text here and there? Should I call? Should I ask her questions about what she is doing personally? Noting in any of our recent interactions has given me any indication she would be anything but ok with it. It is just that I read here on the forum that sometimes LBS get 'over anxious' when contact becomes more frequent. I just do not want to do anything wrong, so I error on the side of caution.
May I submit why I think you do harp on it so often? It goes back to the inability to forgive or let go of past hurts. It's what you learned from your parents and continue practicing. But Pilot, I think forgiveness is a learned skill and though it's a critical element of Christian belief, which you profess to have, it's not taught to us nearly enough. I also know of NO long term marriage that is happy, that did not contain chunks of forgiveness on both sides, usually one side more than the other.
You may very well be right that I am tough on forgiveness. And yes, it is a Christian value. But even God requires you ask forgiveness to receive it
Jokes aside, I get your point and will reflect on it.
you also wrote: [/color]
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This^^^ is all part of legal strategizing which you keep wanting to punish her for. Either let it go, compartmentalize it (business versus emotion) or fall on your sword for it.
It is not that I want to punish her, I just want to protect myself the best I can if it comes to the point we are sitting on opposite sides of the isle in a courtroom. And yea, I agree adopting a protective position from a legal standpoint can be very counter productive to trying to resolve a M.
Ultimately, I try to be as detailed as I can here on my thoughts and actions. I want to make sure any positive AND negative actions on my part are identifiable to others so I can continue what works and work on what does not. I appreciate the in depth responses because you articulate areas I have faults and may have not been aware of them. I clearly have a lot of work to do and will work on it the best I am able.
Thanks again for your time in your responses!
Pilot,
You may not realize how you're coming across to us here.
What I am seeing from you here is that situations are very Black & White to you as evidenced by your comments that this "falls under Sandi's rules" or "is contrary to DBing." How's that helping you develop and maintain healthy relationships?
Flexibility and acceptance, buddy....ok?
Wonka,
Thanks for the post. I do get how I am coming across. I have been pretty black and white when it comes to my situation and applying DB. As I have stated before. My actions are not because I am overly confident in what/how to proceed. It stems more from a fear of doing something wrong. I did everything in the world wrong while my W and I were still under the same roof after BD. Only after our S and over a month of NC did things begin to show signs of improvement. I just have a hard time accepting or understanding the depth of improvement, so I am more comfortable continuing what I was doing the past 7 weeks vs. taking a chance at exposing myself to the unknown.
I am up for all the flexibility in the world on this. I just like to have an idea that what I am doing or about to do at least keeps me pointed in the right direction.
Thanks again for your thoughtful insight.
Pilot,
I get why my mom wrote what she did. I get it was done from the heart and with good intentions. I just wish she had not.
Why not? Because you feel compelled to side with your Dad and display your loyalty to him? Or does the letter bring up uncomfortable truths under the surface about your M?
More along the lines of how I would feel if my air condition repair person decided to try and fix my computer without being asked. My M and where it is now is very important to me. I have done enough to screw things up and and working to correct those actions. I really did not want someone who have very little knowledge of what was going on, and who has been 98% absent in my life jumping in and inserting themselves and making statements which just do not help. I would have been just as annoyed had it been anyone. It just happened to be my mom.
First, let me try to explain what is called sandi's rules. BTW, that was a title that came from newcomers forwarding to one another my list of things to do and not doSome refer to the list as 180's and some say LRT. It was meant to be guidelines for those who were dealing with a WAS when they had no clue as what to do. I did not make extended explanations for each one b/c it would have been a book. But I've been surprised at times when I would read someone refer to something as per sandi's rules that was nowhere included in the list. But I allow that everyone can misinterpret, and newcomers do a ton of reading and under a lot of stress.
Secondly, there are many things that could have been included in that list. Those 37 things were just the ones that came off the top of my head when I was posting to a LBS one time (and then started using the same list to give others). Some of them may be indeed be a 180 for one person, but not necessarily every person. It may seem like actions of the LRT to some, but I have learned everyone does not understand the LRT. Every stitch has to be considered and 1&0's tailored to fit. But if it doesn't work after applying it for a considerable time, Michele says to change and do something that gets better results.
I think there should be a list or guidelines for those who are trying to reconcile and those in piecing. But in most cases, you have to adjust it to apply to the individualized stitch. Every stitch goes at a different pace. And understand this point, what you were doing as the LRT has to shift or readjust when you start entering the period of reconciling. That is where some who are so rigid with "rules" don't grasp. It is a difficult, confusing, trying, and sensitive time.
So, take the above as a disclaimer, or whatever. I don't back away from anything on the list, and I do think it works if applied correctly. But sometimes people say it says things that it doesn't. And this is directed at one individual, but anyone who may read this post.
This is a long post, so I will start another one to address your stitch, Pilot.
Thanks sandi. Put it into my new thread, as this one should lock up soon.
You can use the notify button to have the mods to lock it.