Old thread hit 19 pages, figured it was probably about done.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2379016#Post2379016I ended that post done. Ready to quit last night. W had texted me awesome pics of the step-kids, and joked and teased with me. It was a great exchange and I messed it up by going into relationship talk and she immediately clammed up. She initiated the contact, kept the conversation going, and I believe it's those types of little steps that are gonna bring her back. But if I keep taking it into R talk, she's going to stop those.
I believe 100% she doesn't want divorce; she won't even say it herself. She's backing into because she sees no other option but being forced to stay in a relationship that she is scared we'll mess up, even though she'll readily admit she loves me, and not the ILYB kind of love.
I told her I had filed a continuance on our divorce because I wasn't getting any response from her - she had refused to consider a continuance to give us more time. When I told her, I cringed expecting the backlash, but instead I just got "Ok". Tells me that she's in no rush...
I'm so tired of the back and forth, and it's only been a month since I signed back on here! It's revealed to me that my patience is sorely lacking, and I need to man up. That's why this new thread is called "Digging In".
Great article I found from NY Times - woman who did divorce busting and didn't even know it! Her technique was a little different.
http://lists101.his.com/pipermail/smartmarriages/2009-August/004030.html
Whew, W texted me more pictures this morning, and joked around. Luckily, I just kept it light, and let her send the last text. Live and learn...
Glad you're still here Jon. From other posts on this forum it seems that some have figured out how to keep DBing while getting off the emotional roller coaster. I am not there yet. But the support here does help. Even if you can't control your emotions, you can control your actions, I know you can! Do what works!
Love the article Jon. Nice she had the foresight to be calm and cool in the very beginning, something so many of us wish we had upfront. I loved her responses.
Yep, I have been re-reading it over and over - trying to almost memorize. I have been responding too emotionally; forcing myself on the roller coaster. The last week of being almost dark helped clear my head immensely.
This morning, W called me three times; I waited 20 minutes then called her back as I was going into work so it'd have to be a short conversation. Apparently she had texted me, and my cell provider is having an issue, and they didn't come through. She then said she had to go because she was at work, so sort of a weird convo. Didn't even tell me what the texts were for. Oh well, I got work to do!
Jon this is difficult. We talk about the WAS being on an emotional roller coaster and their "script," but we do the same, we're up and down, we all say the same things in the beginning. Work on you for awhile, let her do whatever she needs to do right now. Go dark, really, because that's the space you need to figure yourself out. That doesn't mean you don't respond to texts or questions, you just do it in as few words as possible.
You're on her roller coaster because you react from an emotional place to everything she does or says. You mindread a lot, work on that for the next week or so. Every time you start to make up a story in your mind about what she's doing or what her words or actions mean, stop it. It's sounds simple but it's not however, it can be done. You have to commit to doing it.
Thanks bug, I'm getting there!
So W dropped off the updated dissolution paperwork today. We did talk a little bit about R. It's so weird to me that she still says she loves me, says she wants to be in a happy marriage, says she knows divorce is wrong - but still pressing divorce.
I did have my attorney file a blanket denial to her case - this will actually extend things by quite awhile.
This is a little mindreading, but I have waited a couple of weeks to observe: I really think W is starting to lose her standing - the theme she has had was that I was all to blame and I'm a bad guy, you know the script. She even said for like two months that just because I was "nice" now didn't change things - but I think she's realizing that things are permanently different. So I think she is pushing the divorce before she realizes that she has nothing to stand on, and really has to look hard at herself. End mindreading.
She even said today, "
If we get back together, then we'll need to change some things with the kids." I told her, "I know you're worried about that, but that's months down the road, let's just worry about what we can handle today. If we try to figure it out all right now, we'll just drive ourselves crazy."
Dunno, weird place right now.
You talked about "if" you get back together???
You've been apart over a month and you still haven't been dark one bit.
She meant that "if" as in reconciled...
Yes that's how I understood it.
Part of being dark is being mysterious and being disinterested in her game. By having that conversation you've confirmed to her that you are still on her hook and that she has some power over you.
If you have to have a conversation, just seem distant and somewhat bored, keep it short and just business.
Some good news as far as my stepkids!!! W called me again; she has been really funny about me seeing step-kids, saying that I won't be a part of their life going forward. She has a lady watch them for a couple of hours on Wednesday afternoon because she works later. She asked me if I wanted take over Wednesdays and the kids would get to see me and vice versa. My first thought was cake-eating: but this lady will still do it, and W only gives her like $5.00.
This is so odd - if we're getting divorced, and not going to be a part of each other's lives, why have me start hanging with the kids? She actually even said maybe we could do dinner, but only as a FAMILY. Again, are we a family? Not sure how I feel about this whole thing, but if it means I get to see my kiddos, I don't really care if she eats dinner or not.
Also, she dropped something off at the house, and I had the garage open, and she called me and was like, "You really did a nice job with the garage - it's so neat and organized, and it's all roomy."
Sheesh, this woman.
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Moving on, it's time to get off the rollercoaster, so here goes. I need to stick with my new topic, "Digging In".
I talked with my friend the other day about the whole "going dark" thing, and they suggested setting a goal of a month, minimum - since a week had good results, and especially since it seems like W is running out of excuses.
So that's my goal I set right now, and record it in public for all of you to see and slap me around on it.
Zero contact initiated by me for a month - October 24th. If W contacts me, I will be polite, quick, and off the phone. Of course, once a month is up, I'm not necessarily gonna start contacting again; just was a date to pick, and then check on things. Even if W wants to do the Wednesday family thing, I will have zero contact outside of that.
I have even decided minimal texting. If she texts me, I will have a two text limit and I will then call and, if necessary, just leave a voice mail. I also will keep a minimum of an hour buffer or more, unless it's extremely important. Even this morning, W called me twice, but since she didn't leave a voice mail, I waited like 20 minutes to call her back.
So, here goes! Yeehaw!
Jon, that doesn't really sound like "dark" to me. But I am not the expert. Hopefully a vet will chime in. At best it might be more distant that is normal for you. You can't be dark for a month and have family meals on Wednesdays. I am not saying that it won't work for you. I think to be dark you have to have ZERO contact for days at a time and only respond when absolutely necessary. And when you do have to respond be extremely concise ... 1 text and done for another week or whatever. Maybe that's not possible in your situation. I haven't been dark in a long time myself.
Yeah, I may be misusing "dark" in this context - I meant no contact from Wednesday at 7:30ish until the next Wednesday at 5:45ish. I'll just say extremely dim - 2 hours out of 168 in a week.
What Is it that you do (or don't do) that you equate to going dim? It seems like you are in contact with w every day. Is that you don't jump to respond when your w contacts you? Every situation has enough unique parameters that it is hard to know if I should be taking out a 2x4 here or not. But when you talk about being dark between Wednesdays meetings it just seems odd to me. I think most on here would agree that I am pretty far from being dark, but there have been many times I have gone a week plus with absolutely zero contact. My w and I are scheduled to have drinks on Thursday. We set that up Sunday. If we have zero contact between Sunday and Thursday, do I get 4 days credit for being dark?
Yes. Dark, very dim, is a state of mind, to me. It's where you've capably said, "I have achieved dominance over my desire to contact WAS" to satisfy your emotions.
Just my opinion.
Id your interested in reading more, the article you posted is the shortened version of the book "this is not the story you think it is, a season of unlikely happiness" by laura munson. It was a good read. Really gave me hooe at the time I read it a few months ago. Glad you're still talking to your wife Jon....stay light hearted w/ her and keep your emotions under your control.
Yes that's how I understood it.
Part of being dark is being mysterious and being disinterested in her game. By having that conversation you've confirmed to her that you are still on her hook and that she has some power over you.
If you have to have a conversation, just seem distant and somewhat bored, keep it short and just business.
I am not a dark fan. Sometimes the WAS has to know you are solid and there. You can have your own life, go out, GAL and do things. THAT's what makes you unavailable.
But saying that you have to look at how you were before. Were you always available to her or more distant? In my case I was distant, so I 180'd it and it worked for me.
Jon, if your W says "if" it's a good step, but she's not ready. Continue with your own life where she sees that her coming back is an addition to your wonderful life, not the cause to your life being wonderful.
In my version of "dark" I let H initiate convos other than kids or finance. I always reply and go where the convo leads. Do what works for you
You are really early on in this. I was the LBS and didn't know my own mind a month or so in. Take time...a lot of time here. One thing I've seen is an early reconciliation seems to not have addressed any of the problems, because as humans, we are lazy and it is easy to fall back into the patterns.
Good Luck
Yes. Dark, very dim, is a state of mind, to me. It's where you've capably said, "I have achieved dominance over my desire to contact WAS" to satisfy your emotions.
In DB'ing terms it means zero contact. There have been people here that have gone truly dark- they've had no contact whatsoever with their spouse for weeks or even months. As KP warns, this is risky because if the LBS was cold and distant in the M (as often is the case as perceived by the WAS) then going dark just looks like "more of the same" to the WAS.
For LBS's with kids, going dark is usually not sustainable. So they go "dim"- they still have some contact but keep it strictly kid-related. Short, businesslike and to the point. No chatting, no getting together for meals, etc.
You are right. If you were a distant, cold person, going dark is probably not a smart move unless a situation specifically calls for it. I think that's why people use words like "dim" - it's semantics, but I think it's important to be clear.
My W felt like I didn't care about her, etc, so going completely dark is a mistake. However, I know she needs time and space to clear her head, and she is battling against her feelings, so I've got to let that play out.
Going dark for me helped break the irresistible urge to text/call W. I don't go out of my way to contact her unless its for a specific reason, i.e. legal reasons.
Many have pointed out that I haven't truly gone dark for a long period of time - but with the kids involved I don't know that I ever truly could; so it's as dim as possible.
Hah, AS, didn't see your post before I hit submit.
I think you're using the term "going dark" (which has a specific meaning in DB which doesn't describe what you're doing) to mean "detaching" (which also has a specific meaning in DB that sounds a lot like what you are doing).
Detachment is good. It's necessary to survive this and to become someone only a fool would leave. You are doing a good job of learning to detach.
Do what works for you.
Adinva - thanks, you're right, detaching is probably the right word. I think that's what I meant anyway - in the context of DB/DR, going dark usually does mean an extended period of separation with very little contact. As they say, "Absence makes the heart grow fonder".
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I had a great exchange over Facebook with a mutual friend. W had really latched on to her a few weeks back and basically told her all of our dirty laundry, blamed me for everything. This woman had taken it, hook line and sinker, and actually had bashed ME to some of my closer friends, saying my W should leave, and so on.
I never said a word to this woman, would just smile and talk to her when I saw her - I knew she was getting one side of a story. However, she has seen me love my W through all of this.
She messaged me last night and told me that W just didn't know what she wanted right now. She said she was actually praying for us to have our family back under one roof! She recommended a book for me to read about loving abused people. It was just awesome to me that my changes and GALing and working on me are so obvious externally that a woman who has only heard bad things about me will begin to defend me and pray for me.
Simply awesome to get confirmation - along with 2x4s!
This woman had taken it, hook line and sinker, and actually had bashed ME to some of my closer friends, saying my W should leave, and so on.
I never said a word to this woman, would just smile and talk to her when I saw her - I knew she was getting one side of a story. However, she has seen me love my W through all of this.
PERFECT reaction!! That is exactly what the LBS should do. Don't try to convince anyone otherwise, just SHOW them you're a spouse that only a fool would leave. Sooner or later they will realize that your actions don't align with the stories they're hearing, and they'll start questioning what they hear.
Thanks AS - I wish I was as successful with W, but I'm getting there.
Tomorrow I get to see my stepkids for the first time in a week and a half, and I can barely wait! I love those nerds. I texted W tonight to make sure step-D10 knew I was coming to pick her up after school (she walks to W's apartment after school and lets herself in), and she responded "Yes". So I didn't respond back, not even an OK or thanks. Strictly business for now.
I'm curious if W will stay for dinner or not - she has been extremely tired, has told me more than once, and the times we have talked I can hear the exhaustion in her voice. I think moving, working 3-4 days a week, having kids full-time on top of depression is wearing her down, because it all happened at once. That's a bit of mind-reading/guessing, but interesting thoughts.
What's cool is that I know I am detaching more and more, and just keep lowering my expectations, because although I'm curious and it's popped in my head, I really don't have any expectations of her staying or not - I'm mostly happy to see my kids!
On the flip side, I have been really lonely today; must be obvious because S11 asked me, "Dad, do you get lonely now that W is gone?" What a great kid! I think I've just felt that way because I've been missing the step-kids, and knew they are coming over tomorrow...
No expectations, detach.
Interesting - a very attractive single girl that I met a couple weeks ago, and is a bit younger than me messaged me on Facebook, and we ended up talking for 20 minutes. She is single, never been married, engaged for like 6 years.
It was nice to be honest and up front with someone and have them say NBD - no big deal.
Of course, I'm not one of the folks I see on here that hook up with some floozy and pronounce themselves "fixed", but it was an interesting point to hear her say, "I've seen you with your kids, and you're an awesome person and dad."
Huh.
I hate to say this because I am not sure it's a good suggestion, but in a weird way it worked for me.
After 2-3 months of separation, I too met a pretty young gal. I was 43 and she was only 29. I knew I wasn't ready for a relationship, but she was special and I didn't know what to do and didn't want to miss my chance. After 2-3 weeks, we luckily fell into the "friend-zone" but what a friend she turned out to be. She gave me a female perspective on my sitch and myself as I learned to detach and GAL. She showed me hot spots and introduced me to things I had never done before. Frankly, I had a freaking blast! I did have trouble keeping up at times because we would sometime stay out until 2-3am on work nights and I had to turn around and get up at 5:30 for work. I handled it pretty well - I guess part of it was the adrenaline and thrill of hanging out with her and her hot friends.
Anyway, sorry, to my point: This young lady ended up being a great, close friend, and helped me go dark and GAL, but more importantly give me the female perspective. She felt some of the same things about her ex-fiancee that my W said she felt about me. That made me realize some of my mistakes, and frankly accelerated my healing and reinventing myself.
As a side effect, even though we weren't dating, it did create a cloud of mystery which would get back to my W. She started hearing I was running around with these young, successful ladies and going to the trendy places in town, and that did have some effect on her.
Oddly enough, now that we are back together, my W insists I stay friends with this gal, and now my W is friends with her too. In fact, my W and I spent this past Saturday afternoon and evening running around town and hanging at her house.
Well, I'm 35 and this girl was 30 - but she's single, never been married, no kids, and I have a 13 and 11 year old, and can't have any more kids. I'm almost positive it wouldn't develop into a relationship, even if there was a divorce and all that. I even told her a bit about my situation with W, so she knows what's going on.
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W got really nasty last night - man, as my rollercoaster smooths out, her rollercoaster seems to get more choppy. She has yo-yoed down to "we're not a family, I don't want us to talk, we're not friends". She even changed and said she didn't want to come in for dinner anymore. Sheesh. This from a woman who a week ago was hugging me, talking about our future, and who yesterday was talking about some things that she would want to happen if we got back together. She also made a point to tell me she was going to go get pictures taken with just her and the step-kids. Gloating, almost...
Then this morning, she called me about needing to pick up some groceries, so she might be a little late getting to the house for dinner. She told me, "Don't go snooping around my apartment when you pick up D10" - and I was like, "I helped you unload some stuff, and you showed me all around it. I already know what your underwear looks like, I'm not gonna be sifting through your drawers."
I did say one thing to her R-related. Whether it's true or not, she feels like everyone in her life has let her down or quit on her - her parents, her ex-husband, friends, etc. That's part of the reason I don't go completely dim. She asked me why I wasn't just signing off on the divorce. I told her, "I'm not against divorce because it's 'sin', or because of some moral code, or I can't let go. The fact of the matter is, you can push me into divorce eventually - I can't stop it. I realize that. I'm against it because I will not be a part of the group of people that quit on you." I know the general rule here is to let them think they've lost you, or you are uninterested, but I think that would have the opposite effect for me. It's been said - she knows it now, I'm not going to keep repeating it or bringing it up.
And actually, after that, she kind of calmed down and started telling me about her new job, and we talked for awhile about more mundane stuff. As we hung up, she said, "I guess I'll come in tonight and we can talk for a little bit more."
Sigh. I'm glad I chose to step off the roller-coaster! It still swings a little bit, but it's usually minutes that I'm thrown off, instead of days...
Jon!!!! You still aren't being dark or GALing.
But you know that by now.
It sounds to me like you are still heavily involved in each others lives but sleeping in separate buildings.
I'm pulling for you my friend, you can do this.
Well, I am GALing, believe it or not. Have lost 22 pounds, been going Monday nights to a local brewery with friends, Tuesday night S11's football practice and I work out, Wednesdays I have my kids and will have step-kids now, Thursday more football practice and another workout, and Friday-Sunday I have my kids (XW1 has them Mon, Tues, Thurs). I am working on the house Saturday, taking the kids to the zoo on Sunday, and we are planning our winter vacation!
From a faith standpoint, I firmly believe that W is desperately still fighting God, and losing the battle, and just doing anything she can think of to keep fighting. Today, she literally brought up one time like during the first couple of months we were dating when I found a few pages of poetry she had written. It wasn't even a private journal or diary; but she was like "I don't like it when you mess with my private crap". I was just dumbfounded she would bring up something from like 2.5 years ago! I just said, "I understand that was very personal, and I'm sorry that it happened like that."
I'm really stuck against time - my attorney is filing a request for more time to "review" which will buy us a couple of weeks. Unless W would agree to a stay or a delay, I'll have to file a response and push the divorce out, or I can sign dissolution paperwork, and it'll be over in 30-90 days. I know the general feeling on here is don't help them with D, but don't stop it either. If it wasn't for the pressure of that... I don't know how to proceed honestly.
Lastly, I think it's a huge step that she has allowed the step-kids to start coming over every Wednesday - even while she says "we're not a family". A classic case of actions speaking louder than words. Of course, she could change her mind, that's why tonight is going to be light, no R talk, just kids and chatting.
Man, I feel very scattered! I think I'm going to go take some chill time!
Well, had a good time with the kids. It's obvious that the four kids have been a part awhile. Ds argued, but Ss got along OK. S5 found a little football helmet, and he went with me to S10's football practice and sat and watched them for a few minutes wearing that little helmet - cutest thing ever!
W called me a couple of times to coordinate, and was very grumpy. She DID come in, and stayed longer than I thought she would. The kids were all eating pizza in the kitchen, and I was in the family room, and she actually walked in and sat in a chair in the room with me; talked mostly small talk, about work and stuff. I just told her what the kids did and stuff. She dyed her hair a darker color, and it looks really good, complimented her on it.
She finally left, and told my kids that they could come over whenever - I had to run grab D10s coat, and when I came back out, W rolled down her window and asked me if I wanted to keep the kids again; said it was fine unless I "made her mad", and grinned at me.
She was very tired,and I told her I could tell, and generally asked about her sleep and stuff. She has gone from basically lying around - to being a full-time single mom, working 4 days a week, sometimes a 10-hour day, taking care of all the cleaning and cooking. I did a lot of that for her before. Also, just in the past 6 weeks, S5 has gotten very mouthy and disrespectful. W told me he has been awful. When I met W, and S5 was barely 2, he was out of control, and it took me a year to get him in line.
Anyway, I used to lie in bed with W and massage her hands - one of her favorite things in the world. When we were talking at the car about her being tired, I said, "You know what you need?" and took her hand and massaged it for about 10 seconds. W didn't pull away, just said, "Ah, yes". Then I dropped her hand and said, "See you next Wednesday" and left.
We did text a little more later - mostly about next Wednesday. I thanked her for letting the kids come over, and that I appreciated her going from "We're not friends" to coming and hanging out even though things are weird right now.
Man, I see this little odd glimpses of her poking through, bleah! So now, I'm going to not contact at all until next Wednesday. I'm making home-made chicken and dumplings!
OH, I almost forgot!
When W came in, I was wearing jeans I haven't been able to fit into for a long time (down 22 pounds now). They were the jeans I wore on our first date, and W always said they drove her crazy.
I also was wearing a blue shirt that she said made my eyes all crazy hot, and made her weak at the knees.
I don't know if she's even close to reality, but I bet I messed her up! Workin' it!
You seem to be handling things well. I'm envious. As we learn how to respond and make changes, we're going to make mistakes, but you seem to be learning quickly. It sounds like your children help fill your time. I need to find something as fulfilling.
Well, I'm not as all put together as maybe you get from my posts. I did talk to W about starting out as "friends". She was VERY against it this morning, but wouldn't say no tonight.
I know that I looked good, smelled good, the step-kids love me, and she is VERY confused. I know that friends and family are praying like crazy for her. So, I have made a significant impression on her, and now I believe it is time to go completely dark until next Wednesday. I have bought a couple of weeks legally, so a week of darkness will be perfect. I know that she is struggling financially, that S5 is way more than she can handle, and that every day that goes by is another day for her to lose the "new car smell" of having a new apartment and being alone brings. She's trying to fill it with parties and other friends, but its falling flat.
So you asked her twice today? And who's on the roller coaster?
Do you want her to come back just cause things are difficult? I get it, I had those thoughts too early on, but I want a loving partner, I don't want to be just any port in a storm.
Tell me more about this: "to being a full-time single mom, working 4 days a week, sometimes a 10-hour day, taking care of all the cleaning and cooking. I did a lot of that for her before." Did you see yourself as a partner to your wife in maintaining your home? I'm guessing you lived there, ate there, etc. Or was it her job and you helped her out?
Bug - right now, I'm still on the roller coaster. I'm not gonna try to sugar-coat it. It's getting better. A week from now, I guarantee it'll be better.
I want to just be FRIENDS. We were best friends; there was no one who I would have rather spent time with. But I also know she is still seeking out crappy high school friends she hasn't spoken with for 15+ years, and going to shallow meaningless parties with kids in tow.
Finally, no, I wasn't a partner. I took care of crap because W didn't take care of it. She was too messed up emotionally. Why did I do that? I dunno. Because I believed with medication and counseling, she would become the woman I knew she could be.
So right now, I know she's considering being friends. Thus my reasoning for going dark for a week - let her see for another weekend how shallow her new "best friends" are.
I'm not questioning why you did it, but what you said earlier was you "did a lot of that for her." You lived in the house so it was yours to do just as much as it was hers.
Has she become the woman you knew she could be? From the way you describe her, it doesn't sound like it.
Back off, you both need it. You're all over the place. You go dark for you, it's not to teach the S a lesson or punish, it's to get your sh!t together. You don't have children together so you could go dark until you figure out who you want to be.
What were some of your W's complaints about you? Have you turned those around?
Well, I'm not as all put together as maybe you get from my posts. I did talk to W about starting out as "friends". She was VERY against it this morning, but wouldn't say no tonight.
Brother, stop with the pressure. You're slipping and backsliding. Review Sandi's DB tips every single day until they're burned into your mind.
I know that I looked good, smelled good, the step-kids love me, and she is VERY confused.
Yes she's confused, but not about the M. She doesn't want the M. What she's confused about is why her emotions are all over the map. She WANTS to be happy outside of the M and she's trying to convince herself she is, but she's still in turmoil and that is confusing her.
So, I have made a significant impression on her, and now I believe it is time to go completely dark until next Wednesday.
Many of your posts like this one smack of "strategy". Strategies don't work with a WAS. They see right through them. They KNOW why the LBS is implementing strategies and they see them for what they are- tricks to get them back. DB'ing is not about strategies. It's about focusing on YOU. Detaching, GALing. Leaving your W to travel her path. You're not doing this, you're still trying to "wake her up" by strutting around in tight jeans and making contact with her interspersed with your version of "going dark" which rarely lasts more than a couple of days.
so a week of darkness will be perfect
What exactly does that mean? It will be perfect for what, waking her up? Quit thinking that way, it's going to be many, many more months or a year or more before she comes out of the fog (if she ever does).
I know that she is struggling financially, that S5 is way more than she can handle, and that every day that goes by is another day for her to lose the "new car smell" of having a new apartment and being alone brings. She's trying to fill it with parties and other friends, but its falling flat.
Take it from the king of mind-readers, that is total mind-reading. I too thought that my W would "wake up" once she moved out. Once she was in her own home and had to do everything herself, once she didn't have me to carry half the workload around the house, once she had the realities of bills and less income and more headaches to address well OF COURSE she would realize what a huge mistake she had made!! Except the opposite has happened, she loves living on her own. She loves having her own place and decorating it with nick-nacks that I would have turned my nose up at. She loves the independence. All of that was a wakeup call for me. I quit waiting for her to "see the light" and really rolled up my sleeves and doubled down on my efforts to be the best me I could be. THAT is where your focus needs to be.
I was going to type a reply but AnotherStander wrote everything that I was thinking.
I just want to add - the talking about being friends or not, that is pursing and will drive her further away. You need to be indifferent and disinterested. You can show interest in the kids of course, but don't question or talk about what kind of relationship you have right now or will have in the future. It just sounds needy and makes it sound like you need some kind of reassurance from her.
I'd almost be careful about the kids. After the way she dumped them off on that other family, she may start taking advantage of you for free babysitting. Have the one day a week reserved is perfect. If you feel the need to see them more, I wouldn't plan it too far in advance and ask just a few hours before. Just my two cents.
@labug - she's not even close, and she knows it... That's why, even when she wanted to reconcile a couple weeks back, I sort of suggested she stay with the 1 year lease in her apartment, to give us both time.
I have changed significantly. W even says it, but doesn't believe that it will last. Apparently, I'm a professional actor since I've been the same for almost 8 straight weeks! There are many more things I can improve, believe me, but I have really asked God to change my heart, and focused on releasing crap that doesn't matter.
AS - thanks. I needed to get a good punch. Not sure if anyone on here is a spiritual person, but I actually was praying this morning, and very clearly felt God saying, "You need to get out of the way if you want me to work!" So, God and you agree!
P.S. My jeans weren't tight, just cool. Guys in tight jeans are gross.
NTX - yep, it's once a week on Wednesdays for about two hours, and W is working, so it's not like I'm taking them so she can go party. But my mindset has shifted. W is not a good parent right now, and she can't handle S5, never has been able to. The kids only get to see their biological dad for 6 weeks in the summer. And none of this is their fault - so if I can be a dad to them, and a place of security for them while W is rattling all over the place, then I think that's a blessing for them. I don't want to play games with them to try to tweak W.
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I dunno why I've been so thick about this ~ I've seen many posts that talk about how DBing is counter-intuitive, and it really is. However, it's finally become increasingly clear that my efforts to "connect" are not going anywhere; even though you all have told me about 50 times! It's sort of dumb of me to try to connect when we already have that, even if W is fighting it. W says she loves me, and it's clear that she likes being with me, even hugging me. She admits it. But for whatever reason, she is locking it down so she doesn't feel anything. Maybe back to what AS said about "She WANTS to be happy outside of the M and she's trying to convince herself she is, but she's still in turmoil and that is confusing her."
It's clear now that whatever "block" is in her mind has to come off before anything I say will have any impact, or any time spent together will mean anything, and I'm pretty darned sure that the block is not gonna come off from me yakking at her.
I guess when even God shows me I need to stop, then maybe it's time to listen!
JonF, sure looks like your on the rollercoaster. Not sure which is worse the idea you see and talk with W alot or like my sitch very little contact with distance between us. Something tells me the distance we have will be better once I am fully take control of me again. I'm definately getting there but it does take some time.....
Anyways, here's something that was given to me several weeks ago when I decided to start walking like a man again.........
"Let Go, Let God"
nuff said.....
Not sure if anyone on here is a spiritual person, but I actually was praying this morning, and very clearly felt God saying, "You need to get out of the way if you want me to work!" So, God and you agree!
LOL! I haven't had to just learn to have patience with myself and with my sitch, but with God too. After BD I went on a praying binge like none other. All hours of the day and night. Often at times like that it seems like our prayers are not being answered. But eventually I came to understand I was praying for what "I" wanted, and at the time thought I really needed (reconciliation) just to survive. But looking back I can see how damaged I was then, and how a quick reconcilation would not have fixed me. Even though I would never want to go through that again, I do see that it has made me a better person and maybe that's what God had in mind all along. I wish he had found an easier way to break it to me though
P.S. My jeans weren't tight, just cool.
Hahaha! Point taken
I dunno why I've been so thick about this ~ I've seen many posts that talk about how DBing is counter-intuitive, and it really is. However, it's finally become increasingly clear that my efforts to "connect" are not going anywhere; even though you all have told me about 50 times!
Hey, it's like the old saying goes, 50th time's a charm!
I'm sure we've all done the same, I know I have. Back after BD I was a master of making persuasive arguments about why DB'ing didn't apply to MY sitch, and why smothering my W with attention and affection was a better path. Of course it didn't work, because it was NOT the better path. Sometimes we have to prove it to ourselves before we believe it. It's a good thing it really is a marathon, because that means we have plenty of time to make adjustments and compensate for the backslides.
But for whatever reason, she is locking it down so she doesn't feel anything. Maybe back to what AS said about "She WANTS to be happy outside of the M and she's trying to convince herself she is, but she's still in turmoil and that is confusing her."
Right, it's sort of a protection mechanism. She's also probably "trying it on" to test her feelings for you, to double-check that the feelings really are gone. My W did a lot of that after BD, there was still a lot of physical contact and even ML.
It's clear now that whatever "block" is in her mind has to come off before anything I say will have any impact, or any time spent together will mean anything, and I'm pretty darned sure that the block is not gonna come off from me yakking at her.
EXACTLY!! Only she can take the wall down, and it usually happens as slowly as it went up- brick by brick. All you can do is leave her to it, any time you try to intervene she starts putting the bricks back up again.
Rough day today. I feel like I've pretty much come full circle with W, back to crazy land.
But I feel more focused than ever, going dim except kids on Wednesday, and that will be for a few minutes. Also, focusing on detaching. Dropped S11 at practice, meeting a friend at practice to chat.
I honestly miss my wife, I think more so now because I've released her to God, and it feels like giving up.
But I keep telling myself that this truly is the only chance I have at our reconciliation, and God knows what he's doing better than me!
Hey, Jon,
It is extremely difficult to release any control we thought we had... and to give it to God.
We can only control ourselves and that needs to be our focus.
Of course you miss your wife. It is still early in your sitch- everything is raw. LEt yourself feel the pain and then release it. But, one thing I have learned is that neither of you will be the same people on the other side of this. In fact she is evolving and YOU are evolving right now...the question is when you both change into these new people will you be on the same path? Not the same path as before, but a new same path.
Only time will tell. Be patient, try to find the small moments in life to enjoy, GAL when you can, and really try to focus on you!
Thanks GTO!
I feel much better now. I really focused in on what I was feeling, allowed myself to feel it, and released it. Took S11 to football practice and then went and got some pizza and brewskis with some new friends.
I've decided to start setting weekly goals for myself - my weight loss is going great, I am committed to going dim, but I want to start moving forward.
My first goal is recommitting at work: I've had to take some sick/leave time the last couple weeks - just have been so unmotivated and lethargic. I took the entire day off tomorrow so I can just get re-charged. So 9/30-10/4, my goal is to be working by 7:30am, and be done with all the necessary work by 4:30pm. At 4:30pm, I will stop working, and do whatever I want. Go for a run, read a book, take a nap, etc.
I am going to a chili cook-off with a bunch of guys on Friday, a bonfire at a friend's house on Saturday, and church and the zoo with the kids on Sunday. Gonna be an awesome weekend!
Zero contact with W until maybe Wednesday, and even then, civil, polite, short, and no attempts to engage like I usually do.
I honestly miss my wife, I think more so now because I've released her to God, and it feels like giving up.
DB'ing is counterintuitive. It is right, but it doesn't FEEL right. The reason is when we're happily married, whenever our spouse is distant/ sad/ mad/ etc. the solution is for us to reach out, pursue and build up their self-esteem to bring them back around. But BD is something else entirely and all of those techniques that work in a healthy marriage are the OPPOSITE of what you should do in a dead marriage. It's just really hard to rewire our brains though.
And like Turtle said, it's important to process the pain properly. Too many people convert pain into anger towards their WAS and their own healing slows to a crawl or completely stops.
Sounds like you've got some good GAL activities coming up this weekend, good! Keep it up!
Hi Jon...
Just following along... Its important to get back to work, it will help keep your mind busy and off your M for awhile. I try not to "allow" myself to think about my R during "office hours". It doesn't always work, as I find myself on here often. But, its a goal and I keep working towards it.
Good for you to have such a GREAT weekend planned. Enjoy!
Thanks for the encouragement AS and magic. I have made such resolutions before and fell through, but even though it's sad, I know I can do it this time.
W has always had what we called "her movie crush" with Norman Reedus who plays Daryl on the Walking Dead tv show (mine is Charlize Theron). She got to see him at a convention a few days ago, and sent me a picture this morning she took with him, and teased me, "Dont be jealous".
I had like 15 jokes or comments that sprung to mind, then it struck me that its not necessary to respond. So I didn't.
I'm just chiming in with the others, you are getting great advice here.
It's weird, when I was in your shoes two years ago, this advice didn't make sense at all, and I tried to mind read and cling to every word and interaction with my W hoping for some glimmer of hope.
But now that I've made it through the other side, this all makes sense now and it actually works.
Early in my sitch, I hoped for a quick fix, I hoped she would see the madness and come running home. But now that I am wiser, I know that would have been a big mistake, we would have eventually gone right back to our "old" marriage which I can see now wasn't working. And now I know I don't WANT that old marriage.
The year apart was crucial, my wife and I both needed to grow up some, learn about ourselves, and have new experiences and make new friends. We both went to counseling (not together). I went a lot more than her and I learned so much about who I am and how to work on problems constructively.
And as an added bonus, I implemented some great projects at work that still are making me a hero here, I got into way better shape, and I met some new friends that are in my and W's life now.
So hang in there, learn about you, and try to enjoy this time alone. We are rooting for you!
I'm just chiming in with the others, you are getting great advice here.
It's weird, when I was in your shoes two years ago, this advice didn't make sense at all, and I tried to mind read and cling to every word and interaction with my W hoping for some glimmer of hope.
But now that I've made it through the other side, this all makes sense now and it actually works.
Early in my sitch, I hoped for a quick fix, I hoped she would see the madness and come running home. But now that I am wiser, I know that would have been a big mistake, we would have eventually gone right back to our "old" marriage which I can see now wasn't working. And now I know I don't WANT that old marriage.
The year apart was crucial, my wife and I both needed to grow up some, learn about ourselves, and have new experiences and make new friends. We both went to counseling (not together). I went a lot more than her and I learned so much about who I am and how to work on problems constructively.
And as an added bonus, I implemented some great projects at work that still are making me a hero here, I got into way better shape, and I met some new friends that are in my and W's life now.
So hang in there, learn about you, and try to enjoy this time alone. We are rooting for you!
It's stories like yours that give me hope.
Thanks, NTX - glad to see you made it through, and congratulations on your efforts!. I have no expectations at this point, and have mentally prepared myself for a very long haul.
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I just actually had to put up a bit of a boundary. I have W's grandmother's piano still in my house, and she texted me demanding a Monday or Friday where she could bring people to come get it.
I replied that I worked those days, but I worked from home Tuesday and Thursday. She said she had movers (one of which is the guy she had an EA with and broke it off), and I simply said that I didn't want people I didn't know in my home, but I'd be happy to help her on either Tuesday or Thursday. She started cussing at me, so I simply said, "Please contact me again when you can speak to me politely." Then I quit responding. She called me an "a$$hole", but I ignored it.
I wasn't nasty, didn't respond to her cussing, and set a boundary. It IS her piano, and it is been passed down to her, and I absolutely think she should have it, but I'm certainly not going to try to take off work to accommodate her demanding a time.
It is a little scary - my head screams at me, "You're gonna ruin any chance you have at reconciling", but my heart says, "It's time to quit rolling over." I remember a very similar scenario with XW1, and our dynamic changed from her demanding and me scurrying to make her happy, to her politely asking permission (and typically getting it).
Oh, well, it's chili time!
Good for you Jon!
I think you did very well. I think it will give her room to think now. Hopefully. Eh, you can always hope right?
See the chili. Be the chili. have fun!
Oh, and I forgot, down another 2 pounds, 23 total! Within 10 pounds of my first goal. I have a goal pair of pants, and I was able to easily button them. Still a bit snug, but wearable.
I'm about to step up my exercise routine a little, so the next 10 should be a breeze!
On the piano, can you move it into the garage (if you have one) so she can pick it up up whenever she wants? That's what I did with my W's stuff. OM was helping her move and I didn't really want him in the house, so I put the stuff in the garage. If it were me I wouldn't particularly want to be there when they're moving it out.
Great work on losing that weight! I'm actually on the opposite track, I'm on a bulk phase right now so my progress is measured by how much weight I gain
Not as easy as it sounds though, because I'm doing a clean bulk which is a lot harder than a dirty bulk (IE, pizza, ice cream, etc.)
That reminded me when W1 left almost 20 years ago. I actually sat in the living room while her friends moved her stuff out.
Let me preface by saying she was not the tidiest person. She kept herself looking good, but cleaning the house was a different story.
Anyhoo, one of the last things she insisted on taking was our new vacuum cleaner. She was like, "oh, and I'm taking this with me too!" I ran to my filing cabinet, and rushed back to her, and said "here, you'll probably need this", as I handed her the owners manual. Even she couldn't hold back a smile.
I don't want any man who's had any relationship with her, past or present, on my property. Period.
I don't want any man who's had any relationship with her, past or present, on my property. Period.
When my w moved out she specifically asked me not to be there. I thought for sure an OM would be there helping her. That was very painful to think about at the time. But I knew that asking about this or complaining about this would just push my w away. To this day I don't know if she was helped by an OM or not. Draw that line if you need to, but my gut says you should let it go. What she is doing is disrespectful for sure. But she will see you as controlling if you try and stop her.
The boundary is the way she spoke to me. I haven't decided on the garage yet, but that's probably a good plan.
However, nothing will happen until she speaks respectfully. It was a big problem in our marriage so this is a 180 for me to basically stop the conversation when she is rude. Its also the first time I've really stood up to her since BD, so it feels good! I'm not angry or looking for revenge, just calmly stated my case. I even dropped off a piece of mail that came to the house and let W know. No response. Knowing her the way I do, she is probably seething that I pushed back, but I guess that's mind-reading...
Thanks for advice! I almost post my thoughts here for a gut check now!
I respect where you're coming from. I hope to get to the point where I don't have to worry that if I stop taking her crap our marriage will end. Right now she gets it eat cake while I eat crap.
The boundary is the way she spoke to me. I haven't decided on the garage yet, but that's probably a good plan.
However, nothing will happen until she speaks respectfully. It was a big problem in our marriage so this is a 180 for me to basically stop the conversation when she is rude. Its also the first time I've really stood up to her since BD, so it feels good! I'm not angry or looking for revenge, just calmly stated my case.
I'm working on the same thing too. I just let my W walk all over me before and even more after BD. This has to stop.
What exactly did you tell your W when she acts up?
She was rude to me via text and I simply said, "You are welcome to contact me when you can be polite.". Then I stopped texting. I later was nice and dropped off an important piece of mail later and let her know. She ignored me, and when we picked up our kids today, she drove by real snotty; she usually pulls up and lets S5 wave. She will do that expecting me to text her and apologize and accommodate, but I won't until she speaks respectfully. Its scary when you are feeling like you're walking a tightrope. But I guarantee if done as a man, not a jerk, any woman will respect it, even if they throw a fit.
W is going to get her first taste of me contacting only for important stuff, and not taking her crap. I will do it with respect for her as my wife, and I won't attempt any control. So either she's worth something and will see a man deserving respect or she's a total waste of time and will be walk further away. Now, I get to see.
Just realized I hit 48 hours of extremely dim, and letting W go. I initiated one contact about an insurance paper, which I thought might be important, but it was a short text.
W sent me a picture of her, didn't respond. She texted me later about getting her piano, and was disrespectful, so I ended that convo. Have heard anything since. I know 48 hours is a blip, but I'm just reminding myself baby steps.
I was certain she'd try to take away me seeing stepkidd, but so far nothing...
She's invited to a mutual friends bonfire tonight, but would be shocked if she showed up. If she does, its PMA, and I won't initiate any chatting.
Struggling a lot with anger these days, really don't want to go down that path, so just putting feelings out here.
Jon. What would it be like if you had 48 hours actual zero contact? What if you let the piano issue wait for a few days, did not respond to her requests at all, did not drop off letters, waited a few days on the insurance,... Try and do 48 hours even when there seem to be business issues that need to be tended to... What do you think would happen? Have you already had 48 hours where nothing came up? Could you wait an extra day if something did come up? Since you backing off like you do it seems to work for you, could you step it up?
Sure. Assuming W doesn't come to cookout tonight, I won't need to see her until Wednesday when she gets kids, so at least 4 days. Even then, I'm planning on being on my riding mower when she gets there, so she'll have to go out of her way to come see me if she wants to talk.
I am still having sad moments when stuff comes up that we would do, but the detaching is really starting to kick in. Certainly a long ways to go, but feeling stronger.
W is going to get her first taste of me contacting only for important stuff, and not taking her crap. I will do it with respect for her as my wife, and I won't attempt any control. So either she's worth something and will see a man deserving respect or she's a total waste of time and will be walk further away. Now, I get to see.
Jon, detachment isn't something you do out of hostility. And it's not something you do to teach the WAS a lesson. It's something you do to save yourself. Your above comment and your comment about staying on the mower when she comes by tells me you are not detached, you are still trying to do things to control her. You're still trying to snap her out of it, to teach her a lesson. But there are no quick fixes for a WAS, there is absolutely nothing you can do that will speed her along her journey. MWD uses the term "loving detachment" in some of her writings, she didn't say that in DR that I can recall but I wish she had because if "loving" were always placed in front of "detachment" then people would have a much more appropriate idea of what detachment is. It's not being cold and indifferent, it's just removing yourself from the roller coaster so that you're no longer affected by her mood swings. You retain your PMA no matter what she's going through. You said you're struggling with anger, I'm glad you recognize it because I do hear it in your posts. You're not going to get relief by trying to control her, you've got to reach within to deal with the pain that is causing your anger. Not sure if anyone has suggested The Happiness Trap to you, but it helped me a lot in understanding and dealing with my emotions.
I for sure think you need to go dim, but just remember it's for you and stick to it regardless of how your W reacts to it.
I am angry - furious even. I think the LBS fog is lifting, and it hit me today that my W really is a WAS. I think for a long time I kept thinking, "No she loves me and the kids too much, she's always done the right thing morally, she loves God, she won't really do something like this". But then I had to just kinda face the truth: at least right now, she's a lying flaky horrible person who will hurt everyone around her - she isn't my W.
I also have had like 3 mutual friends approach me - one even apologized today and was in tears because they were supporting W and very much against me, but have seen over the past few weeks how I just was not willing to say bad things about W while she went everywhere blaming me and lying about me.
I will be mowing not to teach W a lesson but because I just can't even stand seeing her right now. It really is for me - and again, not because I'm trying to teach her a lesson, but simply because it's what I need right now.
I dunno - maybe by Wednesday through prayer and focus I'll feel differently.
Man, after an awesome weekend, I feel like I have been rudely introduced into full-time detaching and AS IF living.
On Friday, I went to a guys night chili cookoff with ping-pong and a movie, it was awesome. My shoulder is still sore for 4 hours of ping-pong. Saturday, I enjoyed S11's football game (even though they had an off day), then took a nap, and went to a gathering of friends' bonfire. Finally Sunday, joined in worship at church, then left early and spent several hours at the zoo, hit the mall, and ended up with wings/pizza at our favorite restaurant.
W would've loved the bonfire and was invited, but didn't show up. She was invited to the zoo, but was taking pictures of just her and the step-kids to push in my face (she admitted this). But I had a great time - I was able to enjoy the animals, love on my two kids, and although I missed my step-kids, I had a fantastic time.
It sort of feels like peeling off a scab before it's ready, but my path is becoming clearer without W. It stings a little still, but not the all-consuming stomach-churning crap it was before. It feels good to be done with the nauseating junk!
Now, on to bigger and better things! Every day, I realize I ate so much crap for W, and she never gave a THING; never committed, never loved, never sacrificed. Only when things got tough, she went for an EA, got drunk and made out with a guy and only didn't have a PA because friends dragged her out, ran up $25,000 in debt, and went around telling all my friends I was awful and lying about me.
Although I believe in unconditional love, I would challenge anyone to tell me what I'm waiting for? I'm seriously considering just signing the dissolution and handing it to her, but I don't want to make an emotional decision to close my marriage.
She was invited to the zoo, but was taking pictures of just her and the step-kids to push in my face (she admitted this).
Did you communicate with her? Did she just send the pics and say in your face?
I would say despite all the things she is doing/you are feeling you are not ready to make that decision.
It will be like when they wake up from their fog, it will be like that for you, one day you will just know. So don't do it if you still don't feel there yet.
I admit, I am feeling the same way lately, what am I waiting for? But it's all part of the process of healing, some just take a little longer than others.
Sounds like you had an awesome weekend! I would love to have that kind of stuff going on. I seemed to have lost a lot of my going out friends, because most of them were bitter angry, drink a lot kind of people and that started to get old.
Thanks, 2nd and Pud. W did tell me she wouldn't go hear a pastor we both loved and go to the zoo because she had pictures scheduled. She told me, "It's just the kids and I". She really made a point to understand it was just the three of them - she's a b1tch right now.
Again the fog has lifted. I am $10k in debt, and without her, I'd have $50k in the bank, and that's an extremely low estimate. She gave away $8k that'd I'd have in a retirement fund, and I have the text where she admitted doing it out of spite just to make sure I wouldn't have access to it. I have a 7 minute video I took where she calls my kids jerks, [censored], idiots, then punches me in the face to stop the recording. I would have my Civic with less than 140,000 miles that gets 32mpg, and instead I have an Odyssey I bought for her that gets 20-22mpg that I have to fill up once a week; she took the other car that gets 28mpg because I paid it off for her.
So, I think right now, good bye...
It's so weird to me that the LBS fog is as blinding as the WAS fog...
Man, why is it that when you have the best times it causes the worst feelings?
I feel better now getting all that off my chest. It's true about W, and I spent a lot of time hiding her behavior even before BD.
But I went to drop off S11s friend at school (S11 is sick) and W pulled up and said S5 wanted to walk in with S11. I told her he was sick, but S11 piped up and wanted to give them a couple little things we got them at the zoo. It was sort of funny because S11 had tested out the toy by blowing in it, so I had to tell S5 we'd clean it. I just said bye to S5, and drove off. So I was civil to W, and left as soon as no further conversation was necessary.
God woke me up this morning feeling pretty badly about my anger. W COULD be an amazing woman and I need to focus on her potential not juat her bad behavior, and being angry isn't going tk
Oops, on phone... "being angry isn't gonna help either of us"
Ugh, morning devotions in Corinthians, "love is patient, love is kind... Love never fails.".
Guess that answers my question!
Jon. What would it be like if you had 48 hours actual zero contact?
2nd - It just struck me that I went from Friday at 1:48 to Monday at 8:30 am with ZERO contact, so 60 hours - and even then W drove over to me and initiated the contact. I basically spoke one polite sentence to W, then ended conversation, rolled up my windows and left. I got a letter for a bill of hers that's over due, so I just scanned it in and emailed it with no comments. Didn't text about it, didn't drop it off.
I know I'm on a bit of a roller coaster with the anger and stuff - I'm not even gonna try to pretend I'm not, but that's slowly fading even today. I think I just needed to have this weekend completely without W as sort of ripping off the band-aid kind of thing...
Man, sorry for all the little posts, but my boundary worked! I told W not to contact me about the piano again until she could speak civilly/politely (this as last Friday morning). She, of course, got mad and called me names, and I just ignored it.
So, today, I finally get:
"Can you please let me know what's going on with the piano?"
Woohoo! It feels good to stand up for yourself! I will probably respond after a couple of hours, and maybe agree to move it into the garage or something.
Good for you Jon!
I think she got used to be so cruel to you, it probably felt normal to her. Hopefully you made her realize her total negativity<--and that's putting it mildly from what I read in your posts.
Now, just don't let your anger get the best of you when returning positive chatter...
I decided to not respond to W. About 5 hours later, she sent just "????". I decided not to respond again. I also am going to take S5 and D10 to the YMCA pool on Wednesday so I can just drop them off and not see W - that way I don't have to decide how to act at this point.
Interestingly enough, I had a great night - ate dinner with a friend, and went over to another friends house to watch some Monday Night Football. My one friend told me several people pointed out that they noticed I had lost weight, and was funny, relaxed, and just enjoyed hanging around with me. The guy that hosted our Friday night get-together even told my friend "YES! JonF is coming!"
In talking with several people, it was my first realization that everyone around me has given up on W. I'm not a doormat. On the contrary, I could walk away right now and everyone that knows us would know it was her - including her entire family that she now shuns. I could look like the loving devoted hero that stood with a horrible woman.
But I won't be that guy. Even if she pushes me into D, I will be the one that stood for her, fought for her, and never quit on her.
I'm glad I'm here. I'm not angry anymore, I'm not really expecting any changes from her, I'm doing this for ME, so that I can look back with honor, dignity, and knowing I did the right thing no matter what.
JonF!
With every post I see growth in you. You can tell you have become a changed person for the better. Sure you slip up every once in a while. But I'll just bet people can see the light shining in your eyes now!
This is what I am looking forward to again someday, being a person with glowing energy. Keep up the good work.
"But I won't be that guy. Even if she pushes me into D, I will be the one that stood for her, fought for her, and never quit on her.
I'm glad I'm here. I'm not angry anymore, I'm not really expecting any changes from her, I'm doing this for ME, so that I can look back with honor, dignity, and knowing I did the right thing no matter what."
Well written! And, really, you stated simply what this whole DB'ing thing is all about. We can only change ourselves, and in doing so, we become better people, no matter what happens to our M.
You are a great example to the rest of us! Thanks for sharing.
Oh, man, I just sat and cried until I thought my heart would break... D13 always is Facebooking and Instagraming and all that.
She logged onto Instagram on my PC, and when I clicked someone's pictures tonight (she is at XW1), it pulled up her Instagram, and she had pictures of herself and I and she put, "Yeah, my daddy and I are cool." Oh, man, my heart!
Thanks Pud and Angela - it's been a long journey, much more than the month I've been on here!
It's amazing how the balance of control shifts by just putting up a boundary.
I didn't respond to W's texts and she texted me again this AM, and said, "It'd be really nice if you'd acknowledge what I'm asking. Geez". Cracks me up a little that someone can have an EA, leave church, dump her friends, parents, and extended family, and break up a family, but by gosh, it'd be nice if someone acknowledged her!
Now ahe is the one asking nicely, and its crucial to note here that I made no efforts at control. I simply set a clear boundary then went dim, almost dark. Zero contact of any kind except for one email with an overdue bill, and that was sent with no comments. (I didn't want to be on the hook for the bill)
I may or may not respond today; I will have to text her tomorrow to let her know I'm taking kids to the Y, but that will be one text, very matter of fact... It feels good to not feel helpless; and it hasn't flipped to anger or hatred, just simple patience!
I decided to not respond to W. About 5 hours later, she sent just "????". I decided not to respond again.
There's no reason not to at least be civil about it. She's no doubt perceiving this as you exacting some revenge on her for BD. Just reply back and work something out with her, get the silly thing out of your house.
I also am going to take S5 and D10 to the YMCA pool on Wednesday so I can just drop them off and not see W - that way I don't have to decide how to act at this point.
You should act "as if" whenever you see her. That means to act as if everything is fine, like you fully accept your sitch and you are OK with it. Also project PMA. Be confident, happy, independent.
Interestingly enough, I had a great night - ate dinner with a friend, and went over to another friends house to watch some Monday Night Football. My one friend told me several people pointed out that they noticed I had lost weight, and was funny, relaxed, and just enjoyed hanging around with me. The guy that hosted our Friday night get-together even told my friend "YES! JonF is coming!"
Awesome stuff, that's EXACTLY what you should be projecting around your W as well!
In talking with several people, it was my first realization that everyone around me has given up on W.
Don't read anything into that. They're just telling you what they think you want to hear. They'll turn around and do the same with your W.
I could walk away right now and everyone that knows us would know it was her
As 25 says, "drop the scorecard".
Be patient with yourself, you're still cycling. It was just 3 days ago that you wrote "I am angry - furious even." I know you want to be "cured" of this, but it's a long journey and you'll cycle back and forth through a full range of emotions. You're not done yet!
Well you ask that she ask nicely and now she is, so don't punish her for that!
You are still bringing in what she did in the past and that has nothing to do with the question she is asking, right?
It's amazing how the balance of control shifts by just putting up a boundary.
"Control"?
I didn't respond to W's texts and she texted me again this AM, and said, "It'd be really nice if you'd acknowledge what I'm asking. Geez". Cracks me up a little that someone can have an EA, leave church, dump her friends, parents, and extended family, and break up a family, but by gosh, it'd be nice if someone acknowledged her!
You sound just a little too gleeful about this, like you're finally getting one over on her. You need to really search your heart on this. Feeling a need for revenge is not going to help you along your path.
Now ahe is the one asking nicely, and its crucial to note here that I made no efforts at control.
And yet, what did you say above? That you shifted the balance of "control"? I do think you're trying to control her.
I may or may not respond today
Quit holding the piano over her head. Get it done and over with.
Hi Jon,
I agree with the others.... she is now asking "politely", why can't/won't you just respond? Are you trying to "contro" a situation?
Easy guys, don't beat me up yet!
I actually did text her back this AM - I have been reaching out to some friends because, even with working out, I can't move a piano by myself! Just told her it would have to be next week, and she said that was fine. Also, I am not interested in control, other than control of myself - it was just an observation that when I stopped letting her push me around, things very quickly changed in her demeanor.
W then asked me if I had signed her dissolution (which I had already said I wasn't going to) - and I just said no. She was mad about it, and initiated a bit of R talk. I told her I couldn't sign it because it was wrong. She said I had two years to do the "right thing", it was too late, she's moving on, etc, etc, standard script. One thing that is different is the excuses she has for divorce are running pretty thin because of my DBing. I know I vent and spazz out on here sometimes, but have been pretty calm and collected with W.
She said, "You can't stop me from divorcing you", and I said, "You're right. I'm simply doing the right thing and not quitting on you as I promised."
I felt like a DB champ instead of a DB chump (don't laugh)! I validated, told her I was sorry she felt so badly, that I understood her fears, that I regretted that things had been in bad shape. She told me she couldn't believe me when I said things, and I responded that made sense, that's why I was willing to show actions.
Then I said, "If you want to discuss further, you're welcome to call me later, but I have a meeting now. Have a nice day."
No response, but I'm pretty happy. I know I probably didn't do perfectly, but my first real R conversation where there was no trying to change her mind, no feeling queasy, etc. Just calm clear responses for the first time in almost 2 months.
I think you did well with your responses. You validated all of her fears and worries without blaming anyone.
Good for you Jon. You are becoming a changed man.
P.S. It was pretty funny, I almost called her "W" as her name!
Hey Jon. I think that you are mostly doing great.. There are a couple of things that might have a huge effect in the wrong direction. Unfortunately not signing dissolution papers because you are standing for the marriage is getting in the way of the D. This will push her to want it more. You could slow it down by having an lawyer look at it or whatever. Be busy, be unavailable.... But I think you need to come across like you are going to allow it to happen. Again, not getting in the way of the D is a big part of DBing
The problem is that W has a D filed, and that clock is ticking. I have the dissolution in hand, but if I don't sign it, W just keeps pushing the D itself.
By the way, in our instance, a D has grounds that must be proven, but a dissolution is basically an agreed D.
I do know for a fact that W filed the D to try to push me/scare me - her grounds are a joke, and she asked for like 65% of my net income. Two attorneys assured me she wouldn't get anything. Also, the two grounds she filed on, I have a ton of evidence against the one, and the other one she had a friend that she said would testify (lie) for her, and that friend has disconnected with W because she found out the truth about our situation.
So I'm honestly curious what she'll do now that she actually has to move forward with it.
If her dissolution is unreasonable, then just say to her that you have decided to go ahead and agree to a dissolution but she needs to have her L draw one up that is reasonable. Stand in the way of that particular agreement but not in the way of the idea. Maybe others have thoughts....
My L doesn't need to do anything until Friday so I'm just going to wait and see how W responds, IF she responds to the continuance request and stuff. Whew, it's a sign that at least my work is starting to pay off. I wanted to text or email and clarify, but I just stopped myself. Wrote a long email up, then deleted it.
I just remembered also: she said if we got divorced that she could apply for welfare; I wonder if that's the urgency. I know she is broke as a joke right now, and all her credit cards are maxed out.
I am confused. She filed for Divorce but wants you to sign a dissolution?
But since you won't sign the dissolution, she's threatening to press the divorce and ask for everything except the kitchen sink?
I know this is a divorce busting site, but I almost feel like you should just sign the dissolution to protect YOU. There will be no winners if this turns into a divorce, and if she's offering a dissolution instead, I'd take that.
I'm not there and don't know either one of you, but let's face it, she's all over the board and has mainly shown signs of pulling away. Granted she's actually probably more confused than anything but if she's offering a "get out of jail free" card, its something to consider.
It may be a bluff, it may not. But if you sign and she files it and your marriage is dissolved, it's not the end of the world. Your relationship will continue as-is for a while... you will both more than likely be involved in each others life for some time to come. Who's to say you can't get back together in the future?
This whole thing doesn't make sense, are you sure she hasn't won the lottery or something and she doesn't want to share it with you?
I am stunned someone would offer you an easy way out.
She won't get anything from a divorce either, and she knows it. I've had two attorneys tell me that, especially with her actions.
Quite honestly, it's VERY tempting to just sign the dissolution. The only reason I can think of for her wanting to move it so quickly, again, is because she is broke and can get gov't support.
Regardless, I can't really think straight about it, but I know I have prayed about it quite a bit, and each time I'm ready to quit, God has said, "Wait", whatever that means. So, I'm waiting...
One of W's depression habits was to sit in bed all day and watch shows over and over on Netflix. Well, her account was signed in on my one laptop that the kids use, and the usage showed the same pattern over and over, even today. Watching a specific show that I would bet she's watched 30 times, all 7 seasons.
It was sort of surprising to me. I thought she'd be out doing fun stuff, enjoying her new free life, living it up; not still sitting in the new house all day watching old shows. Kinda makes me feel sad for her. Here she has a new house, new life, everything - and she just follows the same patterns.
Maybe this is sort of weirdly snooping I guess, so I won't look again, just interesting.
Well the going dark and standing ground works again!
I was completely dark from Friday through Monday, only responded this morning to W initiating conversation where I said I wouldn't sign dissolution, then I ended it. I thought she was furious and throwing a fit, and quite honestly doubted myself quite a bit, even though I knew it was the right thing...
But then she sent me a YouTube video about mending broken hearts, and asked me if I remembered what I'd said to her about it when she sent it to me several weeks ago. (I had said something about not believing her). I told her I wished I had handled differently.
W got pictures taken of the kids, and continued by saying, "I'm feeling nice so here's some pics of the kids". She then sent me one that was super hot of her, and was like, "oops didn't mean to send that". Yeah right!
.
I told her they looked nice, and complimented her, and she said they were just samples and she'd have a lot more.
Then I told her I was really tired, and going to sleep. So good night, DBers!
Well handled, just be prepared, there could be another 3-5 day NC period by her choice. Today feels like a roller coaster high, but know that a low usually follows, no expectations.
Staying mysterious, and slightly unavailable seems counter intuitive but its what keeps them wondering. In all honesty, you still need the time apart, your getting there thou.
What I'm happy about is that I controlled myself, validated again, and ended convo. Not really hinging anything on W's actions, they could mean nothing.
Good job Jon. It's hard stuff.
Well W got off a bit earlier so she came to pick up S5; I told her I was going out so I was getting in the shower. Didn't even see her. I did email her about a continuance to delay the divorce proceedings because she has to file it tomorrow, or we go to full trial. No response.
What's interesting is that about 20% of me hoped she'd file the delay, and about 80% didn't care.
I met with great friends for a birthday party, had an awesome time, and only thought about W once, when someone else brought her up. It was a good day! Now I feel a fever coming back, so I'm taking some flu meds and going to bed.
Boooo on the flu. Feel better Jon!
Texted W about the continuance as my attorney had to file it by 3:00pm to get it in. She said she didn't want to wait.
Then she started into a very interesting R talk - rehashing some old stuff about a song she had sent me, said that since I responded "mean" to her, that she had just decided to never put her heart on the line for me, no matter how much she loved me because she couldn't stand to get her heart broken. I told her I understood that she must be very hurt, and my response had been wrong.
She had suggested the step-kids could spend the night with us this weekend, but we are gonna be very busy, so I asked if I could take them to breakfast one day instead. She said yes, and then said she would come along too. (go figure!)
She started talking about me not liking country music (I'm not a huge fan) and making fun of her music, which was an odd topic. I told her that I didn't mind it, just wasn't my favorite, and I DID take her to see two huge stars, Tim McGraw and Keith Urban. We actually got about 5 feet from Tim McGraw, and we were only about 12 rows back for Keith Urban. They were great shows; Keith Urban can SHRED a guitar. She said, "Well, you didn't like them." I responded, "Shoot, I'd take you to a country concert tomorrow, and wear cowboy boots, and do the boot-scoot boogie." I was cracking myself up - but she responded, "Whatever."
Finally, a weird thing happened - I found my wedding ring. I had lost it several months ago, and found it wedged in the corner of some shelves I have. I know DBing says not to wear - but W had been really hurt by me losing it, so I told her I had found something, and sent a pic of it on my finger. She responded, "Well, good, but you'll just lose it again." I actually had taken it off initially because I got too fat, but now it fits just fine! Woot!
I dunno - a very weird conversation as you can see, maybe I need a 2x4 for the ring? Very confusing!
Freaky weird.
I don't usually swing the 2x4 too often, others are much better at it than I am.
I do have to ask you tho since you brought it up. Why send her the pic of ring anyway?
Don't put too much thought into the convo. Just continue doing your thing.
Jon... Sometime we get positive responses for doing odd things. There is a push pull dynamic of attraction... I would just say next time she sees you don't be wearing it... It is a crazy ride
Jon,
I would suggest that you try wearing your wedding ring for a while. If W asks about it, just say "I'll take it off when we sign off the D papers."
Your W gave you two key clues in regard her internal thought process as it relates to the song and "you'll lose it again" comment which leads me to think that she's testing your resolve for her and the M. Which is why I'm suggesting that you put on your ring.
Then watch and monitor W's reactions.
I'm re-thinking on the ring comment....
"I'll leave the ring on until we sign off the D papers. Don't want to lose it again after finding it...right."
I like how Wonka is thinking about this. Not just the wearing the ring = pressure, so don't so it. Clues and insights that we might miss ourselves are always helpful. I am always looking for clues from my w that would help me choose ways to change my actions in my situation.
@Spartan - mostly because when I lost it, it really hurt her feelings. Maybe other feelings came into play; maybe "end" of our marriage to go with it? I dunno. EVERY once in awhile, something just feels 'right' to me, even after thinking about it.
@2nd - I appreciate it. I really have only seen W once in 3 weeks, so I'm not sure it's something I have to worry about .
@Wonka - I'm the type that believes you ARE married until you sign divorce papers, although I fully understand when people talk about their M being "dead". So, I'm probably leaning toward wearing it because of what it meant to her.
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The conversation got even weirder. Later on:
W: "I love you, but I don't have warm feelings."
Me: "Well that stands to reason since we've barely seen each other or spoken for 2 months, and the times we have spoken typically haven't been very nice at all."
W: "Well, I love my dad, but I would never be around him, or let him hurt me again."
Me: "I'm not your dad, and you've never been able to stand your dad for more than a few hours at a time, but you and I have a good time almost every time we're together." (That wasn't very validating, but it exposes her daddy issues for sure, and how she connects them to me.)
W: "Well, there still aren't much emotions."
(Interrupted myself to send a picture of a margarita, W's favorite drink, as I was out with friends)
Me: "Don't b jealous." I have no idea why I did this!
I probably then broke every DB rule in the book, but it felt exactly right, I dunno why:
Me "I understand that you don't feel much emotions right now, but emotions are fleeting, and can change based on whether someone get a good night's sleep. If you are 'done', we'll take the kids out for a nice breakfast, and we can tell them that you've decided to finalize the divorce, and it'll be done in a few months. If so, I will not be contacting you again, and I will wish you the very best in life. If you decide that's not what you want, you know where I stand and how I feel. Have a great night."
Now, I'm going out with ANOTHER friend to watch a football game for a little bit. My GALing is full steam ahead.
To be completely honest, when W initially said she didn't want to wait for a continuance, for about 60 seconds, I was a bit knotted up, then realized it was OK. I have had a total blast the last couple of weeks, and every day I have thought less and less about W, and the stomach knot has continued to loosen. She does not control who I am, doesn't make my happiness, doesn't "complete" me. I would love to have her as a part of my life, but if not, time to move on.
Off to football!
Jon Jon Jon - you STILL haven't gone dark. Every time I visit your thread, you share conversations about R.
And while I understand the one last night was intended to show her that you can move on, instead it's put pressure and guilt on her, and makes you appear clingy.
And the margarita picture? I feel like that's a slap in her face - which I personally like considering what she's done to you, but it wasn't a good idea either... again it looks clingy and manipulative.
I don't know what you decided about the ring, but I wouldn't wear it. That too looks clingy. It's just a ring. I understand the symbolism when you got it during the wedding, but she's done nothing but pull away from you, so not wearing the ring sends a message to her that you'll be fine without her, in my humble opinion.
Jon, you're getting a lot of conflicting advice. All of it sounds like good advice. You need to do what works in your situation if you want to save your M. If you have two possible paths and one is more in line with your values, you tend to go in that direction. You might want to try to go outside of your comfort zone and see what happens. Do you want to exit your M feeling you did what was RIGHT or do you want to save your M by doing what WORKS. This is actually an extremely difficult choice for many on here. I personally would always want to choose to do what works, but even then, I get caught up in the moment and make bad choices.
One of the things we all get caught up in is the particular circumstances of the moment. I do this. We make choices choices based on what is going on in a particular moment rather than focussing on the bigger picture.
Can you detach the state of your relationship from the legal proceedings? An M is so much more than legal paperwork.
Jon, I always come here hoping to see new growth from you, but then I start reading and can't help but reach for a 2x4, LOL! I sense that you're trying to convince yourself you don't care what happens to the M, but I really don't think you're there. Your emotions are still all over the place. When you get to the point that you can go MONTHS without cycling through emotions over your sitch, but can instead meet it head-on with calm, poise and zero anger, and have gotten to the point where you aren't trying to "go dark" or "go dim" or other "tricks" but instead are just living your life and leaving your W to live hers, THEN you have gotten to the place you need to be. THEN you can decide if you're done and ready to move on. You are NOWHERE CLOSE to that place right now. I think you're in the throes of a false sense of being there, that happened to me too, and it happened right around the same timeframe after S that you're in right now. Take it from me, you need to step back, take a deep breath and gather yourself. Stop the pressure, stop the R talks, stop trying to convince yourself you're done. Find yourself.
W: "I love you, but I don't have warm feelings."
Me: "Well that stands to reason since we've barely seen each other or spoken for 2 months, and the times we have spoken typically haven't been very nice at all."
Anytime your W shares her feelings (good, bad or otherwise) you need to validate. A validating response might have been: I hear you saying you don't have warm feelings towards me and I understand why that might be, can you expand on how that makes you feel?
W: "Well, I love my dad, but I would never be around him, or let him hurt me again."
Me: "I'm not your dad, and you've never been able to stand your dad for more than a few hours at a time, but you and I have a good time almost every time we're together."
You basically told her "what you feel doesn't matter because I'm not your dad". You negated her feelings. Instead you should validate- "It must have been very difficult on you being around someone you loved, but that hurt you that way. How did that feel, were you angry, or sad, or frustrated? Do you see parallels between that and our relationship?"
W: "Well, there still aren't much emotions."
Me: "Don't b jealous." I have no idea why I did this!
Again, she's talking about feelings and you should be validating. Sending a pic of a margarita doesn't quality as validation, LOL!
I probably then broke every DB rule in the book, but it felt exactly right, I dunno why
"Why" is because DB'ing is counterintuitive. It "feels" wrong. That's why you have to set your feelings aside, they betray you.
Me "I understand that you don't feel much emotions right now, but emotions are fleeting, and can change based on whether someone get a good night's sleep.
You went into fix it mode. Don't try to fix her, you can't. Validate her feelings.
If you are 'done', we'll take the kids out for a nice breakfast, and we can tell them that you've decided to finalize the divorce, and it'll be done in a few months. If so, I will not be contacting you again, and I will wish you the very best in life. If you decide that's not what you want, you know where I stand and how I feel. Have a great night."
To me that sounds controlling and manipulative, like you're trying to force her to do things on your terms. And certainly it's applying a lot of pressure on her. Again, I think you need to step back and just let things be for a while. A LONG while.
Jon,
From what I've read about W's thoughts and comments, I get the sense that she's looking to you to fight for her and the M. Doesn't mean that you need to go all out for it.
Are you truly listening to your W? Listen quietly and carefully. All the clues are right there. It isn't about you right now. It is all HER and her thoughts/emotions at the moment. Be her friend when you go have the face-to-face interactions and let her initiate R talks.
Your frustrations are bleeding out and comes out in a push-pull dynamic. This is why you told W that she needs to tell the kids she is pulling the plug on the M and initiating D paperwork. It seems to me that you want to deflect and heap all the guilt onto W so you'll come out as the "nice guy" in this. Not good thinking on your part.
Look inward and talk to yourself to see if you can sidestep the discomfort and antsy feelings. There's no firm timetable that you have to do A, B, C in order to arrive at X. It is all an illusion.
Man. What an insane two days. This post is long, apologies in advance.
First of all thanks everyone for your comments and thoughts. I will respond to them when my head is a little clearer.
Anyway, today, I was supposed to let W know about taking the kids to breakfast this week; she had suggested a certain restaurant (Bob Evans for those of you that know it). I texted her this morning letting her know that it would have to be Sunday after church. I then said Bob Evans sounds good right now, I'm starving! Just a chatty text, then was going to go about my day.
W: "Why don't you just come over here and grab something to eat. I'm about to get in the shower."
Me: *sit in stunned silence, no response*
W: "Door's unlocked, getting in shower."
I threw on a nice shirt, cologne, combed hair in about 10 seconds!
I went over, and she was walking around in her bathrobe getting coffee, and offered me some. I helped her open a box with a dresser in it (joked that she just needed manual labor), and then we sat and drank coffee and chatted about kids, school, work, life, etc.
W: "Come in the bedroom and talk to me while I get dressed."
Me: "uh."
W: "I can stand behind the closet door, silly."
So I sat in a chair in her room, and she talked about S5 misbehaving (W has a hard time handling him). She reached around the door to show me that her panties matched a pillow on her bed, then she walked out in a shirt and panties (oh, that bootie, yes I looked), and went to get a pair of pants, and nonchalantly walked back over.
Anyway the conversation spanned probably 2 hours - I actually said I needed to leave a couple of times to pick up D13's prescriptions, and W was like "You don't have to rush, the pharmacy is open all day." After much internal debate, I did decide to wear my ring. I didn't try to flash it around, actually kinda forgot I was wearing it, but W touched it and said, "ooooooo" and kinda smiled at it. I really think it was the right decision; even though it went a little against the grain. Maybe since I never took it off in "anger", it was a little different situation.
Very little R talk other than she asked me about the hearing Monday, said she had never gotten a notice. I kinda chuckled and told her it was a little odd to be hanging out having coffee when we would be meeting in court to start a divorce trial on Monday - she laughed and said, "Well, maybe we can grab breakfast together before the hearing to make it weirder!" Then, "Even if we have that hearing that doesn't mean anything is final."
She then said she really didn't know what to do about D; that she felt there was so much junk that had been said and done that maybe it was impossible to come back from. I told her I understood and sometimes it seemed overwhelming to me as well. I said if we wanted to have any chance of success, we'd have to go one day at a time and start very small. She talked about the one time about a year where she left for about a month, and when she came back, nothing was different. I told her I had pushed for her to come back too soon because, quite honestly, I missed her, and we should have allowed more time, and gone to marriage counseling, etc, but that's a lesson we can learn from.
She said, "I don't know" about 8 times, then asked me if she could think about it until Sunday when we went to lunch. I said sure, I was just listening, but didn't want to pressure her, and left.
I need to take a little while to digest this now!
Yep, been there, done that. I visited my W a handful of times while we were separated and she would try to tease me like that. I am not sure why. Maybe it was to torture me. Or maybe it was for her to see if she still had power over me.
And I have to admit, one of the times we ended up ML, and it was one of the best we had ever had, went on for hours.
I can't tell you if it was a good idea or not.... it probably wasn't in the grand scheme of things, but at that moment we both needed some stress relief. Things did get worse and the D got closer after that, but luckily we never made it to the end.
Good job!
Now it's a good time to go dim and make W want to seek you out. The ring...I was right in suspecting that W has attached some sentimental value to it. Check off on that list of yours as a positive in the column.
Jon .. I have been following your situation for a while now and you have been in a similar place before. Last time after your w was giving you positive responses, you did your version of going dim and your w said she wanted to continue with the D. What can you do different this time? Maybe go darker, maybe don't go dark at all. Go back and read your own posts for clues. Also, take a close look at your actions just prior to your W seemingly a thinking that she might want want to stick around. Go back and read your own posts and see if you can find a pattern. That's what I would do anyway
Just real quick, still thinking and digesting, fantastic feedback from everyone! As far as contact, my plan is not to contact W until we meet for lunch Sunday.
However, I'll probably see her at the "First Friday" shindig our town does once a month tonight, and will see her tomorrow because I'm watching step-kids while she goes to a birthday party. I'm actually sort of excited about her going to the party because it'll be with our old circle of friends, who she has mostly avoided for the last few weeks.
I'm not sure how to handle tonight. I'm thinking maybe just say hi and be nice, hug the step-kids, then just talk to other people...
Have you been in a similar situation? What did you do? What happened? Wasn't there a street fair or something... Maybe that was totally different
The street fair (First Friday) is every month. Last month I didn't speak to her, but she sort of took care of it tonight. Asked me if I was going and I said I was there, so she asked me where I was, and that she was walking down. I hung out with my kids for about a half hour, and walked to meet a group of friends, and she texted me again asking where I was. She found me and walked over and stood by me. I was gonna get a coffee and offered her one, and as we were adding cream, she muttered, "This isn't a date."
Apparently she found out about the hot single chick that had been real flirty with me, and she asked me where my "girlfriend" was, and maybe we were "meant to be". I bit my tongue to not remind her she has hung out more with her EA's family, and I had one conversation.
So I and took S10 and SS5 to get food, and left her there. When I came back she was talking to a bunch of church women, and they were loving on her, so that was good! She also is having coffee Monday with a good friend of mine who actually has had a similar experience to W with an abusive ex-husband. W came back out and talked to me, which I was surprised because all our friends could see her. I then made it a point to tell her I was heading out, and left.
Sort of exhausting, honestly. The stepkids kept begging to spend the night, but I said no, D13 has been having really bad headaches, and S5 has been really bad, and quite honestly I don't think it's fair to be buddying them up with D pending. I did text W and tell her that I wanted to wait until we had everything settled to determine how to handle kids. I don't want this awkward situation where I'm their dad until W hooks up with a new guy, then it's, "Oh this guy is now your dad". Maybe I'm over thinking that...
I was gonna get a coffee and offered her one, and as we were adding cream, she muttered, "This isn't a date."
shrug your shoulders and say "ok". I probably see myself doing just that.
Apparently she found out about the hot single chick that had been real flirty with me, and she asked me where my "girlfriend" was, and maybe we were "meant to be".
Feels good to be noticed, eh? Both parties on top of that. You dog!
I bit my tongue to not remind her she has hung out more with her EA's family, and I had one conversation.
It's not about who's right.
Sort of exhausting, honestly. The stepkids kept begging to spend the night, but I said no, D13 has been having really bad headaches, and S5 has been really bad, and quite honestly I don't think it's fair to be buddying them up with D pending. I did text W and tell her that I wanted to wait until we had everything settled to determine how to handle kids. I don't want this awkward situation where I'm their dad until W hooks up with a new guy, then it's, "Oh this guy is now your dad". Maybe I'm over thinking that...
I don't think you will stop being their 'Dad' and you are over thinking this.
Since Friday morning, this has been such a whirlwind! First W inviting me over for breakfast, walking around half naked, talking for 2 hours, to seeking me out Friday night at our town fun day - today was more low-key. W texted me to tell me she was taking step-kids into practice some orthodontic stuff on them; I went to S11's football game.
Been thinking a lot tonight: after a Friday where she was very open with me, and said she still wasn't sure about divorce, and hugged me several times, and flirted with me - I don't even know if I want this anymore. I believe wholly in my vows and commitment, but am maybe ready to let her go. I felt this way last week, and waited because a few people said it might be a false alarm, but I still feel that way.
Here's why:
W had asked me to watch step-kids so she could go to a mutual friend's birthday party, then she bailed saying she didn't feel good, although she felt fine enough to take kids to pet store, dollar store, and run around. When I found out she wasn't going to go, I asked her to keep S5 because I was going to have 9 kids under the age of 10 + a baby, with only 2 adults. W threw a fit, said I was disappointing S5, that I was putting other "brats" ahead of my own, and she'd see me in court. What I think REALLY was the problem was W wanted a quiet night all to herself, and I completely believe she planned this. I DBed like a champ; explained the situation, told her I understood how she could see it that way, and that if she would work with me to make him behave, I'd consider taking him. I got there, and she was laughing, and joking with S5, and bouncing around, and as soon as I asked her why she didn't feel good, she got real sober, and said her head was hurting really badly, and then she didn't act fun anymore. I guess this is open to interpretation, but I believe she completely faked it because she hasn't had a night with no kids in about 3 weeks.
So she ditched a wonderful friend to sit at home and watch TV, and used me to make it happen by threatening divorce.
I am so blessed with tons of friends, beautiful kids, a great extended family, close with God, a fantastic church, a great career - why am I torturing myself hanging around waiting for the slightest positive glance to come my way by someone who blames me for all their problems? Someone who refuses to even put in the slightest bit of effort to fix their own issues? Someone who has treated their family, parents, friends, and husband like dirt? What crosses the line of being a doormat/used, and being a loving patient husband?
I'm not sure...
Ok JF, reality check coming........
You start off every post hanging on her every word, mind reading what she might be thinking or doing, whether she's very open or more low key.
Then the next paragraph is im "ready to let her go"? Please go back and re-read your posts, your all over the place still, and you know what, your supposed to be!!! Its still VERY early in your sitch. STOP trying to figure things out and give yourself, and maybe even her a break.
Its been 4 months!!! FOUR!!!!since the separation. I'm sorry but you have a LONG LONG way to go, im afraid thou that your still too vested in the outcome because your not really detaching yet. That's ok, its gonna take time.
To answer why your "hanging around waiting", its cause you want your marriage to work..........PERIOD, end of story. Your also carrying a fair share of resentment still with comments like "someone who refuses to even put in the slightest" type comments, that too will take more time. I was a wreck myself after 4 months, its to be expected.
You gave several reasons to be happy, but still let the ONE reason continue to bog down your changes. As a matter of fact, what changes are you making for YOU, what got you into trouble in the first place? Still so many of your actions are reactions to her. You have a lot of work to do on yourself, but you are trying to make changes and TELLING her your making them (the ring thing). Do it for yourself cause you need to, not to be noticed.
Your going to make it buddy, really you are. But you need to get a hold of your emotions, stop thinking so much about the outcome of your marriage like you have some kind of say in it right now. You don't!! Either your going to give her the time she needs or your going to push her away further and forever. You CANNOT fix your marriage right now, im sorry, but you can make mistakes to end it. Start preparing yourself that either your going to give this at LEAST another year or your not. There is still no missing you yet, a day or two here and there is still too much in her face, and prevents you from detaching.
Your still trying to convince yourself for the wrong reasons, theres no forgiveness in your tones, just jealousy/resentment/anger at the situation, or her lack of effort in them. There is NO effort on her part!!! She cant miss you and your still trying to make changes to get noticed. Are those really changes? or your way of forcing your input on a situation that's out of your control?
If she hasn't had one day off from the kids in three weeks it is not unreasonable for her to be desperate for a night in, and it's sad that she had to fake a headache to feel deserving of it. Why were you so judgmental about that?
Fly...that was awesome. <---Jon, listen to fly.
Fly, thanks for the reality check; I am much more likely to release my frustration and crap on here, just to vent; it really doesn't accurately show how I feel day to day. And you're almost completely right on every count.
I'll specifically address your question about changes in me, specifically control, not caring enough about what hurt W, etc:
1. W got mad about me not picking up S5 after planning to. Normally, I would've told her to quit being a drama queen, and to stop making every situation into a fiasco, and then not done it just to make a point to her. This time, I explained how I thought she might have misunderstood my intentions, and then offered a compromise where he could go.
2. I was playing with W's new phone, and she started talking to me about something about work. I had actually started playing it before she started talking. Before, I would've just said, "Look, I was playing this first, and you interrupted. There is no need to be mad." Instead, I closed the phone, set it down, turned to face her, and said, "I'm sorry, that was rude, I'm listening fully to you."
3. If W didn't feel good, I'd be like, "I go to work sick, so you'll have to suck it up." She didn't feel good tonight, and I had all the kids, so I texted her to ask if she wanted a milkshake from the place we were going, and got her one.
Baby steps to be sure, but they were genuine and from the heart, not even practicing DB, although DB showed me the way!
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I hung out a lot with the kids today, it was a lot of fun. W had been up most of the night with some bad food, so I took them so she could sleep, and man, do those kids love each other. I texted her about a milkshake as mentioned above, and got her one. It was funny - I was joking around, and told her that I deserved a kiss or something for it, and she was like "fine". I about choked. I took the kids back and was helping her fold some laundry as she was feeling a lot better, just chatting, and just leaned over and kissed her. I even paused "going on" to make sure I wasn't forcing it or anything. It's the first time we've kissed in about 6 weeks. I walked out of the room, and was checking on kids, and when I came back, I could see through the crack and she had this big smile on her face. I walked in, and she said, "Doesn't mean I felt anything." Sigh, WASes always spoil the fun. We sat and watched some TV together, and I laid with my head on her lap, and she was OK with it; just laughed with me at the show, and joked around.
She did bring up some D talk with the conference tomorrow; she asked me a few questions about my attorney which was weird, but I figured she'd meet him tomorrow. I said something like this not being the only route, and she said she still would consider dismissing it, but if I were to ask her right then, she'd say no. I told her that seemed odd since she was so adamant about things not working out between us, so what would change her mind, and she said, 'Time. God'. She also said it's gonna take at least a few months, so it's not like we have to rush anything. I just said, "That's cool". I got the kids and left.
We probably should have done a smaller dose of time this weekend, especially with W not feeling well, because I could tell she was getting a little stressed and frustrated with the D talk at the end. Glad I left before she got too peeved. It's weird.