My problem relationship isn't a marriage...it is a co-parenting relationship.
This guy was absolutely not interested in any kind of romantic relationship with me after he dumped me 5 years ago when I was 4 1/2 months pregnant. We got along pretty well most of the time, but he didn't want me dating other men. Last ditch effort, we "became a couple", but our relationship was the same, just with a different name. He was not interested in giving me any attention, affection, companionship, or conversation. We spent Monday evenings together for a couple of hours as a family. He would not have a photo taken of just me and him at my daughter's birthday party, he would not sit and talk with me alone. We had ONE physical experience (after 2 years and 8 months of not even holding hands or a kiss) and 3 weeks later when I told him I was about ready for another kiss, he literally ran away. Then I dumped him. I was not getting my needs met and the whole purpose of the experiment was to see if I could get my needs met by him. I dumped him, changed the schedule so we would not be together on Monday nights and drastically reduced our contact.
I emotionally disconnected with him and I started dating other men and I did not need or want anything from my ex, but I did have some anger and resentment I had to deal with because I thought he should have made more of an effort to keep me from going to another man/men. I still think it would be best if I could be with my child's father rather than another man, but I have not looked to him for attention, affection, sex, etc. in a year and a half, YET in this past year he has complained bitterly about how I have harassed him and smothered him.....WHAT? The farther I pull away and the less I have to do with him, the more he complains about me being in his life.
The last straw was when I tried to get him to work on his attitude since we shared custody, and we have 4 exchanges a week because he sees her so often. He told me that I was using our child to force him to see me. That was ridiculous. I have bent over backwards trying to arrange things so he has as little contact with me as possible and he still complains when I contact him only about scheduling variations.
So, I said, "FINE, you don't want to see me, I 'll fix things to where we don't ever have to see each other." I won't go to his house for pickup 2 days a week (very inconvenient for me, anyway, but I felt like he was holding her hostage until I came to his door to pick her up) and we will jump through whatever hoops necessary so that he won't have to see me. It lasted about 3 weeks...we did the exchange at the YMCA day care. He would drop her off, I would pick her up...one of us was always at the facility when our daughter was, AND we only communicated via text.
I loved the new arrangement. I felt like a weight was lifted. But about 3 weeks in, he asked me to meet him at chickfila. I asked him how he was going to do that without us seeing each other. Then he said I could come to his house and he would just stick her out the door when I got there, so we wouldn't have to see each other. I told him I was not going to come to his house. I am trying to keep distance from him. It is rather silly, I think, but I didn't know what else to do.
Well, this has been a disaster. The farther I pull away from him, the worse he behaves. So, I am going to do the opposite. Remember, I have spent a year and a half keeping my distance from him and the only "pursuing" I have done is giving in to his silly demands for distance. Now I think he keeps running when I am not chasing him because he WANTS me to chase him because he doesn't like how things are, but he doesn't know how to change them.
I had a flash of inspiration the other day. I remember "The Miracle Worker" and how young Helen Keller didn't have the ability to communicate and Annie Sullivan FORCED her to learn. I know Helen was just a child, but still, it is a beautiful story about love and sacrifice and determination.
I told my ex that I feel like he's like Helen Keller and I am like Annie Sullivan. He does not want to cooperate with me, but I truly do believe he can learn new skills that will make life better for him and everyone around him (especially me and our child.) We will see how it goes!
Really interesting, tnmom...
I guess my biggest question is.. what do you want?
At the beginning of your post, you specifically discuss this as being a co-parenting issue. Why do you want to co-parent with him, rather than parallel-parent?
How is the relationship between the two of you negatively affecting the co-parenting? How do you WANT the co-parenting to look like?
Or...
Is this really about the R with the father of your child?
Ways I think he tries to get me to "chase" him:
1. Not answering text messages regarding scheduling changes (I have 2 other kids with an ex-husband and sometimes we need to make some adjustments...specifically we had a birthday party and a dentist appointment I needed to schedule around)EVEN THOUGH he agreed that we would communicate about schedules. Previously, I had had basically NO CONTACT with him for 3 1/2 weeks (I was angry and frustrated with him, I wasn't trying to cater to him) and when I made ONE phone call to him about a scheduling change for Thanksgiving holiday, I left a message, sent a text asking him to call and 4 hours later I called him again (my aunt was waiting to make plans for which day we would visit--the urgency was for HER benefit) he answered the phone all angry telling me to "stop bothering me!" I told him at that point that if he did not want me to call or text repeatedly, he should reply in a timely manner.
2. He acts weird or says crazy things just to get me to engage him. Like when I sat down on a couch beside him, he scooted away and said, "Don't get too close!" like he's an 8 year old boy who thinks I have cooties or something. Of course that it silly and childish behavior.Of course he knows I am going to want to know why he is acting that way.
3. He does not do what he says he will do, so I can confront him over that. He originally said he would drop her off at 9:30, but he never did. He basically changed the drop-off time to 10:30 without telling me until the last minute (he does not plan ahead or give me information so that I can plan ahead.)
If he really wanted to limit contact, he would do what he said he would do, he would deal with my questions promptly. It goes from "do you plan to drop her off at 10:30 instead of 9:30 every day?" to "I'm just asking, it's fine" to "please reply if you are getting these texts". One time I had my brother call to tell him that I was afraid he wasn't getting my texts, but as soon as he saw my brother calling, he texted me a reply to my question and called my brother back to tell him that he had got back to me. A few days later he didn't reply to my texts again and I asked him about it and he said he was getting them but that I asked him too many questions.
I told him he is like a little boy who pushes a little girl into a pile of dog poop or sticks her pigtails in the inkwell (archaic reference) at school because he doesn't know how to interact in a positive way with her. He is 41 and has never had a "normal" relationship with a woman. Very few and very short lived "relationships". I thought his problem was "just" committmentphobia, but that should have gotten better when I withdrew almost totally from his life.
He is NOT "typical," he has "special needs" that make relating to him in a positive way very challenging.
The good news is that in the past several months, I have gotten control of my own emotions and I feel like since I have "taken the beam from my own eye", I can help him with his issues. Our problems were different, but we both have struggles with anxiety and depression and letting our emotions control us rather than us controlling our emotions.
I want him to not go out of his way to play childish games with me.
I want him to treat me with common courtesy.
I want him to communicate with me in a respectful and timely manner in matters concerning out child.
I want him to not have an anxiety attack every time he gets a text message from me. That's just sick.
I used to want us to be able to be able to be together for special occasions, like birthday parties, recitals, her wedding, but now I don't care if we can't ever be in the same room together. I am not going to fight for that.
We started out co-parenting and it went well. In reality, we are mostly parallel parenting, but it still isn't working. Even in parallel parenting, there is some contact required.
I am not new to coparenting/parallel parenting. I have 2 teenagers with my ex-husband and I have never had the kind of problems I am having with this other man. My exhusband and I don't have problems communicating with each other or attending school functions together, etc. I have not had to jump through hoops with my exhusband like I have with this other guy.
It is just annoying and inconvenient when I need to communicate with him and he plays games. I don't want to play games back with him. I could have easily left him stranded last week and not have been there to pick up my daughter when he probably was expecting to drop her off. I had to take my other daughter to a dentist appointment and I needed to know if he wanted me to get my younger daughter either before or after the dental apppointment. But he didn't want to reply to my text.
I just want him to act like a normal, mature adult. Stop the game playing. Recognize he has emotional issues and deal with them so they don't stress him out and stress me out.
Even with "parallel parenting", there is contact and a "relationship" YES, I want that parenting relationship to be improved.
I haven't figured out what his problem is. But he's got a problem.
Just so you know, how I am dealing with my stbx is the same as how he appears to be dealing with you.
Frankly, I want nothing to do with my stbx. I have gone as dark as possible. We have custody arrangements and I stick to them. Nothing more, nothing less. If she attempts to engage me for any reason, I ignore it.
I want nothing to do with her and I don't want her to chase me. I'm done.
And that... sounds to me like the possible reasons for his behaviour. He's setting his boundaries with you. He's not playing a game.
To be a little more clear about this, my stbx has set up the kid schedule. Something that I asked for because without it, I saw the kids very little. All based on a schedule that stbx created, without discussing it with me. Her L drafted the schedule, along with the separation agreement. Because I knew I would not be able to "negotiate" with stbx, I agreed to the schedule because, it was certainly much better than prior and it was at least "close to fair".
And... once it was signed, my W then verbally asked / suggested / stated that she wanted us to be flexible. So... in her mind, it was back down to her way or the highway, for my visits with the kids. She would ask for a change in the schedule and I would say, "OK". I asked for a change in the schedule and I was accused of wanting things only when it was convenient for me. So much for fixed OR flexible schedule...
Unfortunately, it is the child who looses the most in a separation / divorce.
Is it inconvenient? Sure. Does it svck? Yes. Can we control others? no.
Rather than trying to push some change on him, how can you work with what you've got?
I want him to not go out of his way to play childish games with me.
...
etc
I am not new to coparenting/parallel parenting. I have 2 teenagers with my ex-husband and I have never had the kind of problems
...
I haven't figured out what his problem is. But he's got a problem.
This really sounds like a relationship problem between him and yourself.
The only way to get to an appropriate co-parenting relationship is that the two of you communicate well.
Do you have ANY idea what he wants, other than your assumption that he's playing games and wants you to chase him?
I told him last month that if I couldn't have a good relationship, I didn't want a relationship at all and that is when I backed up as far as I could. It seems to have blown up in my face, so I have to try a different strategy...Rather than "let go of the rope" I am going to hold on and my mission is to be to transform this relationship into a "good" relationship.
I told him to "Let go or get dragged" because I am not going to continue to try to cater to his neuroses. I am going to do everything I can to fight for him, like Annie Sullivan fought for Helen Keller. Helen Keller's family had "dropped the rope" but it ended up not being the best approach for anyone.
He really has some serious phobia to me now. I told him I am looking up about "exposure therapy" and told him we should work on that since he doesn't want to get professional help. My therapist says I should not expect him to cooperate with me, and I don't expect it, but I will try anyway. I have to do something. He is really suffering and I feel like he has been crying out to me for help, in his own way.
I just want us to both have peace and our daughter is must 4, so I want the next 14 years to be more pleasant than the last couple.
tnmom, I do want you to know that I empathize with your sitch. A lot of what you've written is very telling.
I do want to ask you, has your entire relationship with him been you steamrolling him?
You appear to be a very strong character. I do understand you are frustrated right now, but it seems like for the entire relationship with him, you have "directed" all things in the relationship. Your entire focus right now appears to be pushing your will and desire on him and how custody and visits with D4 will go.
Do you make the majority of the decisions around your custody and visitation with your teen kids and ex?
He SAYS he wants me "out of his life" but he has also said that he wanted to co-parent.
How can I be any more "out of his life" than for him to not ever have to see me and to not have to hear my voice, but to only communicate via text about our daughter? I ask him and he doesn't have any answer.
Just to be clear, I understand that you said you've been distancing and detaching from him over the last while.
Do you understand that kind of behaviour can APPEAR to be passive-aggressive attempts to manipulate others? That could be how it appears, to D4's dad.
If he thinks you are trying to manipulate him, and it DOES appear that way in your posts, he is very likely going to continue to resist.
Until he feels you are no longer pressuring him... until he feels that you are actually listening to him... and his needs...
Right now tnmom, you want D4's dad to come to the table and co-parent. Maybe he really does want to.
How can you empathize with him as a tool to help him feel safe enough to come to the table and co-parent WITH you?
Just so you know, how I am dealing with my stbx is the same as how he appears to be dealing with you.
Frankly, I want nothing to do with my stbx. I have gone as dark as possible. We have custody arrangements and I stick to them. Nothing more, nothing less. If she attempts to engage me for any reason, I ignore it.
I want nothing to do with her and I don't want her to chase me. I'm done.
And that... sounds to me like the possible reasons for his behaviour. He's setting his boundaries with you. He's not playing a game.
He has set his boundaries and I have set mine. He keeps changing the rules. He IS playing games. My therapist has talked him twice and he thinks he is playing games, too, but mostly just doesn't have good relationship skills.
I have, as I said, not pursued this man AT ALL in a year and a half since I dumped HIM, other than by trying to conform to his requests and honor his boundaries. My therapist says that trying to make him happy is "pursuit behavior". So I have mostly just done whatever we BOTH want (minimize contact, keep it just about the child) and occasionally I did what I wanted, like sending him a picture of our daughter doing something exciting or sharing with him via text something cute she said or some new skill she has mastered.
To be a little more clear about this, my stbx has set up the kid schedule. Something that I asked for because without it, I saw the kids very little. All based on a schedule that stbx created, without discussing it with me. Her L drafted the schedule, along with the separation agreement. Because I knew I would not be able to "negotiate" with stbx, I agreed to the schedule because, it was certainly much better than prior and it was at least "close to fair".
And... once it was signed, my W then verbally asked / suggested / stated that she wanted us to be flexible. So... in her mind, it was back down to her way or the highway, for my visits with the kids. She would ask for a change in the schedule and I would say, "OK". I asked for a change in the schedule and I was accused of wanting things only when it was convenient for me. So much for fixed OR flexible schedule...
HE is the one who did not want a written parenting plan and wanted to keep things "flexible". That's fine, but when things come up, he needs to communicate!
Unfortunately, it is the child who looses the most in a separation / divorce.
Is it inconvenient? Sure. Does it svck? Yes. Can we control others? no.
Rather than trying to push some change on him, how can you work with what you've got?
I do not believe that we cannot control others. I believe we can influence some people in some ways some of the time, if we know what buttons to push. I am only interested in a win-win situation and right now we are in a lose-lose situation.
tnmom, I do want you to know that I empathize with your sitch. A lot of what you've written is very telling.
I do want to ask you, has your entire relationship with him been you steamrolling him?
You appear to be a very strong character. I do understand you are frustrated right now, but it seems like for the entire relationship with him, you have "directed" all things in the relationship. Your entire focus right now appears to be pushing your will and desire on him and how custody and visits with D4 will go.
Do you make the majority of the decisions around your custody and visitation with your teen kids and ex?
No, no, no. This is a DRAMATIC change in my attitude and also in what I plan to be in my behavior, as well. How can I be "directing" things when I have catered to almost all of his whims? I stood up to him when he said if I ever get married or have another man around our daughter, he'll see a lawyer to get full custody. When he said, "Don't ask me questions about my work, my family, my friends, or soccer" I didn't. He had previously talked very openly about these things, but I recognized it as a boundary. He doesn't answer the phone when I call him, but when he called me when I was at the gym and I didn't get back to him within 15 min or so (my phone was in the car), he left work in the middle of the morning and drove to my house and was sitting in my drive way when I got to my car at the gym and returned his call.
He is a very complicated person. I read "Men Who Can't Love" before I got pregnant with him (my pregnancy was an unwelcomed surprise!) I knew that we could never have a truly healthy and satisfying relationship of any kind, but I thought we could both settle some, for our daughter's sake.
For the first 3 years, things were mostly okay and for several months at a time we were actually pretty "friendly" but we ran into problems when I wanted emotional intimacy and affection and he didn't want to give it to me, but he didn't want me getting it from anyone else, either.
My ex husband and I make decisions together and rarely disagree. Usually when we disagree, he is the one who "wins".
I am really one of the easiest people in the world to get along with.
I am not just frustrated now for myself, I feel HIS pain and frustration. I feel HIS cry for help. i might be TOTALLY off base, but this is a 180 for me. I am going to fight FOR him and hope I fight harder than he fights AGAINST me. I love this man and he is a good man and a good father and I feel like nobody has stood up to him/for him.
I want to solve problems. I want to make things better. I want to bind up wounds. This man acts the way he does because he doesn't know how NOT to.
I am shooting in the dark, but I do feel very much like I might finally be on the right track. Actually, I could not have taken this approach a year or two ago, I needed him and wanted him and it was hard for me to respect his boundaries. It hurt me that he built all these walls. Now I have a certain detachment that helps me respond to him more objectively. MY feelings and desires are not so important anymore. When I realized how much HE was hurting and how his anxiety is eating away at him, and how his games might actually be "cries for help"....well, it's much more about HIM and much LESS about ME than it would have been 2 years ago.
Just to be clear, I understand that you said you've been distancing and detaching from him over the last while.
Do you understand that kind of behaviour can APPEAR to be passive-aggressive attempts to manipulate others? That could be how it appears, to D4's dad.
If he thinks you are trying to manipulate him, and it DOES appear that way in your posts, he is very likely going to continue to resist.
Until he feels you are no longer pressuring him... until he feels that you are actually listening to him... and his needs...
This had NOT occurred to me. I guess no matter what I do, I'm screwed. I most definitely have felt like I have been misunderstood. Maybe this is what is going on....can you elaborate of what I have done and how it can seem passive-aggressive and manipulative?
I thought it was simple. What do you want? Okay, here is is, Happy now? No? Why not? What's it going to take for us to each live our separate lives in peace and our limited contact to ust be civil?
You have my attention.....maybe you have something there...
What do you think I should have done instead of trying to honor his boundaries and do what he said he wanted me to do?
I still think this is related to his emotional problems. How can any NORMAL person be so complicated?
Maybe I'm not clear on something. What kind of "rules" does he keep changing?
Yes, as your therapist indicates, trying to make him happy is possibly pursuit behaviour. It can also possibly be co-dependent behaviour.
What are your therapists thoughts on how you can change your approach in order to solve these problems?
So, are you saying that there is no parenting plan in place?
Then, why are you chasing him (more pursuit behaviour) to work on the schedule. The onus should be on him to let YOU know when he wants to visit with D4.
I do not believe that we cannot control others. I believe we can influence some people in some ways some of the time, if we know what buttons to push. I am only interested in a win-win situation and right now we are in a lose-lose situation.
ouch... that appeared to me, to be a very contradictory paragraph.
In my experience, one of the biggest challenges most people have is accepting that a solution or path to a solution that does not look like we imagined, can still be OK. People seem to feel that win / win is black white and everything that does not look like what we hoped win / win would look like, is suddenly dropped into the loose / loose bucket.
I just saw your last two posts and will read through them and offer support on them.
If he thinks you are trying to manipulate him, and it DOES appear that way in your posts, he is very likely going to continue to resist.
Until he feels you are no longer pressuring him... until he feels that you are actually listening to him... and his needs...
And when I asked him about a year ago, when I felt like we were misunderstanding each other, if he would please go to another counseling session with us so we could get help understanding what each other REALLY wanted and was trying to do, he told me he called the police and filed a police report because he felt like I was harassing him and trying to get him to do something I didn't want him to do (improve communication in our parenting relationship, which at that point wasn't even CO-parenting anymore). Why would ANYONE want to NOT understand/be understood by someone they need to communicate with?
I don't even want to co-parent anymore...I just want him to not have an anxiety attack and be unable to respond when I send him a text about drop off/pick up time. I have a hard time empathizing because i don't know why he'd respond that way. It doesn't make sense to me! I only avoid people when I'm mad at them. He doesn't have any reason to be mad at me because I'm not doing anything he told me to not to and I'm doing almost everything he has told me to do...other than to not date other men.
I will make this a little more simple than going point for point in your other two posts.
Just so you know, I accept that D4's dad could be a complete nutbag...
that said, I do my best to remain subjective. Many people are simply misunderstood.
Regarding the schedule, how far in advance do you KNOW what you might be doing with D4? There are a number of online (and free with advertising) parenting or family calendars. It could go a long way to help you and D4's dad work out when D4 is available.
Are you worried that he might take you to court on custody? Why?
I think we're getting into some really good stuff, here.
Are you indicating that you are generally a free spirit and work hard to help everyone get what they want? Do you find that you have trouble enforcing your own boundaries? Does it bother you that even though you can understand someone else' perspective, that no one seems to appreciate yours?
Basically, if you were to chart out what he wants and what you want, there's probably very few "sticking points". You may find that the two of you agree on more than it seems, it's just that the ones where there is friction are very prominent.
What would YOUR boundaries be?
How do they conflict with what you feel HIS boundaries are?
As far as passive-aggressive, I'm not suggesting that it IS passive-aggressive, so much as it could APPEAR TO BE passive-aggressive.
Do you find that when you want something, you form a picture or mental story board on how it would look, for you?
Just a quick comment, I have been accused of being passive agressive by my W. While trying to detach and distance myself I have thought/wondered if she may think of this as, more of the same. I can definitely see how she could think that but she asked for space and that is what I have tried to give her. I just don't know of any other way to do it. Just my two cents.
Maybe I'm not clear on something. What kind of "rules" does he keep changing?
He tells me to do one thing, then he decides he wants me to do do something else and he keeps moving the boundaries. He tells me he wants to coparent and keep him involved in our child's life when she is with me, make decisions together, etc. Then when I have an issue to discuss with him, he refuses to discuss it with me, tells me it is "bullshit excuses" to try to get him to talk to me. I didn't want to talk to him. I am totally transparent and if I want to talk to him, I'll just tell him I want to talk to him. I am not going to use HER as an "excuse". He says he wants to keep schedules flexible and communication open, yet he won't tell me in advance what the schedule should be..."I'll let you know"......and he won't answer my texts or phone calls on a regular basis.
[quote=Kaffe Diem]Yes, as your therapist indicates, trying to make him happy is possibly pursuit behaviour. It can also possibly be co-dependent behaviour.
Oh, yes, I have had a lot of co-dependency issues. But what is wrong with just trying to give a person what they say they want? Why does that have to be twisted around and assumed to be some unhealthy behavior? I always try to do good and do things to help other people be happy. I try to be nice to everyone. I do not believe that is a bad thing and I do not plan on stopping. I do not have problems in other relationships, just this one.
What are your therapists thoughts on how you can change your approach in order to solve these problems?
My therapist isn't God, but I pray and seek guidance from God as well. My therapist is the one who told me to go live my own life and quit trying to make this guy happy and to stop some of my codependent behaviors. Basically, he has told me to not expect this guy to change. He didn't tell me something horrible will happen if I try, he just thinks I won't accomplish anything. The best thing my therapist has helped me with is getting control of my emotions. It took me a long time to understand that other people don't "make" me crazy, I am actually choosing the way I respond. I was in really bad shape in August....I wanted this guy DEAD because I was so frustrated with how he kept complaining even when I wasn't doing anything for him to complain about. I didn't see any way out and I didn't think I could survive another 14 years of being attacked like I was. It took me about 3 or 4 months of really hard work and using Lucinda Basset's program on anxiety and depression before I felt like I really had control over my emotions. I'm backed against a wall now and I can't do anything else to try to make him feel better, so I thought my 180 should be to start pushing back. And something important to remember is that MY therapist is looking after ME, my exbf is NOT his concern. But my EXBF doesn't have anyone trying to help him except me. I have to do the best I can. My therapist doesn't seem to think my exbf's problems are mine to solve, but if I don't reach out to help him, nobody will and he has been suffering long enough.
So, are you saying that there is no parenting plan in place?
Then, why are you chasing him (more pursuit behaviour) to work on the schedule. The onus should be on him to let YOU know when he wants to visit with D4.
MAYBE YOU ARE RIGHT. I WILL TRY LEAVING IT UP TO HIM AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS, BUT IT CAN BE QUITE INCONVENIENT FOR ME. HE LEFT ME WAITING 4 HOURS ONE TIME WHEN I LEFT IT UP TO HIM. I THINK HE BASICALLY INTENDS ON DROPPING HER OFF AT 10:30 ON WED AND FRIDAY AND HE CAN LET ME KNOW ABOUT FRIDAY PM AND SAT A.M. I WON'T ASK HIM ANYMORE UNLESS THERE IS AN ISSUE, BUT IF I DON'T ASK HIM ABOUT VARIATIONS AND MAKE ARRANGEMENTS, SOMEBODY IS GOING TO GET INCONVENIENCED. I DON'T CARE IF IT IS HIM, BUT I DO CARE IF IT IS ME OR MY FAMILY.
[quote=tnmom66]I do not believe that we cannot control others. I believe we can influence some people in some ways some of the time, if we know what buttons to push. I am only interested in a win-win situation and right now we are in a lose-lose situation.
ouch... that appeared to me, to be a very contradictory paragraph.
In my experience, one of the biggest challenges most people have is accepting that a solution or path to a solution that does not look like we imagined, can still be OK. People seem to feel that win / win is black white and everything that does not look like what we hoped win / win would look like, is suddenly dropped into the loose / loose bucket.
Oh, it has taken me a LONG time to learn to be content with my circumstances. My life is NOTHING like what I had anticipated. I have had a lot of disappointments, but also a lot of blessings. I don't think we ever get everything we want. Life is full of disappointments. If both parties can find a way to live relatively peaceful lives, that is win-win. It is not win-win when I enable someone to be inconsiderate and disrespectful and uncooperative of me. I won't stand for it. Like I said, I have been pushed against a wall and I am going to push back, at least for a while. This man is very lonely, disconnected, frustrated. He doesn't know how to feel differently. If I can help him to learn to relate to me in a healthier way, we can have a healthier relationship and we will both be happier. Life won't be perfect, but I think we will have more peace.I don't want to drag him forever.
Did you watch "The Miracle Worker" with Anne Bancroft? 1962? It's my inspiration.
If I can help this man learn some relationship skills, he might actually have a mutually satisfying, healthy, normal relationship with a woman someday...the one thing that has eluded him his whole life. If I can help him get to that point, I will feel like I have served a great purpose in his life. He and I will never be able to have a romantic relationship ourselves, but it is my hope that we can be civil and cooperative in our parenting relationship.. You have no idea of how unhappy he is right now. It hurts me to see him like this and I have to try to help him.
I will make this a little more simple than going point for point in your other two posts.
Just so you know, I accept that D4's dad could be a complete nutbag...
that said, I do my best to remain subjective. Many people are simply misunderstood.
Regarding the schedule, how far in advance do you KNOW what you might be doing with D4? There are a number of online (and free with advertising) parenting or family calendars. It could go a long way to help you and D4's dad work out when D4 is available.
Are you worried that he might take you to court on custody? Why?
I think we're getting into some really good stuff, here.
Are you indicating that you are generally a free spirit and work hard to help everyone get what they want? Do you find that you have trouble enforcing your own boundaries? Does it bother you that even though you can understand someone else' perspective, that no one seems to appreciate yours?
Basically, if you were to chart out what he wants and what you want, there's probably very few "sticking points". You may find that the two of you agree on more than it seems, it's just that the ones where there is friction are very prominent.
What would YOUR boundaries be?
How do they conflict with what you feel HIS boundaries are?
As far as passive-aggressive, I'm not suggesting that it IS passive-aggressive, so much as it could APPEAR TO BE passive-aggressive.
Do you find that when you want something, you form a picture or mental story board on how it would look, for you?
He is a good man. I love him. He is a good father. My daughter loves him. He is very complex and I believe he is misunderstood and he doesn't even understand himself. It isn't my intention to vilify him.
He's not going to mess around with any online calendars. I am going to stand my ground on this point. I expect him to communicate with me about drop off/pick up. Like I said, I will leave the onus on him and see how it goes. But part of my feels like that is the wrong thing....it is giving in to his "don't ask questions" and I think that is silly. I guess I will just make assumptions unless he informs me otherwise.
I do think he might take me to court. I don't think a judge would make any changes, though.
I do try to make people happy. I am easy-going in general, but I do have boundaries. I try to understand people and in general I don't feel like I have problems understanding OR being understood. But in this relationship, I am having a very hard time understanding AND being understood mostly because there is no effective communication.
Really, my big issue is with his ATTITUDE. Since we are parallel parenting, we aren't making decisions together. I know I want to home school and he doesn't want me to...that will be a big blowup, probably. We might have to go to court over that. I may lose. I'm building a case.
I just think if people have conflict, they should work together to resolve it. I can't imagine why people would WANT to have a BAD relationship/feelings toward someone they are connected to by family.
I can pretty much "paint a picture" of what I hope to achieve. I can "see" what a civil and respectful relationship is. I have experienced it before with him, so it isn't hard to bring it to mind. I can actually remember a warm, loving, intimate relationship, but I can't picture ever experiencing that in real life with him again. He has been civil and respectful and cooperative since he dumped me, so I guess that is why I think we can expect to achieve it again.
I'm shooting in the dark. I just wanted to share my plans and my experience. I do think this is a pretty unique situation, but I do think a lot of people give up when they should be tenacious like Annie Sullivan.
lol... sorry, I chuckled hard when you said he tells you that he wants to keep a flexible schedule and then you ask him how a flexible schedule might look like...
ummmm... flexible... I think his answer is appropriate...
But I do get your frustration in that.
I am glad you are going to consider simply creating a schedule that works for you and letting him work around that. That can be your boundary to enforce.
How would you enforce pick up and drop off times?
I have seen the movie "the Miracle Worker" and it is very inspirational.
I also agree with you that wanting to help someone does not always imply co-dependence. Our happiness is NOT dependent on their happiness. Although it can feel really good to know that someone that you supported has positive growth.
So lets talk about "responsible" and "detached".
I'm guessing you aren't detached from this guy, yet. I get wanting to help people, it is certainly one of my motivations for being here on this site and also the people that I support and encourage growth in, in real life.
It has been a hard lesson for me to learn that some times, the best way to support someone is to give it up to God.
Why do you want the responsibility to help this man, other than the fact that he is your D4's father?
Did you watch "The Miracle Worker" with Anne Bancroft? 1962? It's my inspiration.
If I can help this man learn some relationship skills, he might actually have a mutually satisfying, healthy, normal relationship with a woman someday...the one thing that has eluded him his whole life.
I have seen it, and while it's a great movie and very inspirational, I'm not sure there's an appropriate parallel to draw to your sitch. You sound very controlling to me, and now your response to your sitch is that you need to force your H to "learn some relationship skills". Well if your H has perceived you as controlling and that has driven him away, then becoming a hyper-controller is going to make things much worse, not better. MWD warns about this in DR- we expect our actions to give us certain results, and if they don't, we think we're just not trying hard enough and so we double our efforts behind those actions instead of doing 180's on them. The result is we push ourselves farther and farther from our goals.
So, ask yourself if trying to fix your H is just "more of the same" behavior on your part, and if it is, what would be the opposite of that? What would be a 180?
I don't understand why everybody thinks I am "controlling". Of course I am working very hard to be controlling now, I'm doing a 180! I really don't want to get into all the things my family and friends get mad about him for when they say HE is controlling and I need to grow a backbone. Honestly, I don't think either of us is really especially 'controlling"...everybody prefers to "get their way", right? He hasn't complained about me being "controlling," he just wants me out of his life. He doesn't want to see me, talk to me, have anything to do with me, but we have joint custody of a child. The farther away from him I have been, the less time I have spent with him, the more he complains. For 2 years he spent at least 2 hours a day, 5 days a week with me and my daughter, then we went to 2 to 4 hours a week. For the last year and a half, it has probably averaged less than 15 minutes a week because I changed the schedule to suit him, but also so I wouldn't have to spend time with someone who didn't really want to be with me.I never had him accuse me of harassing him or smothering him until I stopped hanging out with him and communicating with him about anything besides our daughter. And when I quit trying to coparent and went to mostly just communicating about drop off and pick up, he got even worse and would accuse me of trying to get close to him through our daughter and wanting to marry him. Just nuts!
Me confronting him and trying to demand that he treat me differently is NOT "more of the same" although he knows have always wanted a good rapport with him.
It is only because my life is entwined with this man that I have decided to take on the responsibility to help him. If he were not the father of my child and if I did not have 14 years of having to deal with him, I'd pray for him and wish him well, but I would not fight like I am.
From "The Miracle Worker: Annie Sullivan: "It's less trouble to feel sorry for her than it is to teach her anything better."
In my case I thought it was easier to cater to him and pity him and try to not upset him than to try to help him learn how to manage his feelings and our relationship better. And I can't really TEACH him, I can only try to facilitate his learning, to support him.
I am not TOTALLY detached, but I think I am detached and indifferent as I can be ans should be under the circumstances.
Today was wonderful. He showed up exactly on time. I had texted him last night asking when I should expect him and for the first time in a month, he wasn't at least 20 minutes late (that is 3 exchanges a week that I wait on him to drop off).
I had told him maybe we needed to work on "exposure therapy" and that spending less time together and in contact seemed to make his anxiety worse, so I was going to do all I could to do the opposite of what I have done this last month. I was going to see him face to face this morning, but I was sick and I texted him and told him I looked like crap and felt like crap and if I was going to see him, I would prefer that it be when I looked good and felt good, but I told him where I would be sitting (out of line of sight of the front door and the day care, but just around a corner, close proximity) if he wanted to make contact.
Interestingly, this morning he texted me "she is in" (he must have made a template of that to tell me when she is checked into the day care)and then started getting a cup of tea but last time, he sent the text after he had left the building, just before getting into his car. I texted him back, "thank you" and got up and looked to the door and there he was leaning over a table, fixing his tea. I would not be surprised if he didn't see me out of the corner of his eye...I was about 12 feet away. If he was trying to avoid me, he would have waited till he was out of the building before texting me, but I had already told him that I didn't care to see him. Anyway, it was nice and peaceful and I think we were all happy. I am glad that things went the way they did.
I have been texting him a lot the last few days...not asking questions, just sharing my thoughts with him. I told him I felt really good about HIM taking the lead in getting on a better track. My therapist told me I should not point out when he is acting "normal", but I do anyway. I told him I was sorry if I made him feel bad...I think it was a mistake to cater to his neuroses...just made him worse and maybe created problems that weren't there to start with. I told him I feel confident that he can lead us back to "normal" and that I don't really want to push. I want to do whatever I can to make things easy and treating him like some kind of freak was not the way to do it...
Now,I know him well enough to know that sometimes he feels "out of sorts" and so am I, for that matter. We can cut each other slack on those days it seems like we're "teething", but I want us to have pleasant exchanges as a general rule. If there is something we need to discuss, we should be able to sit down and discuss it.
I think we are off to a good start!
Just thinking today how we can all be our own "Miracle Workers". We all lack skills, and most of us lack some pretty vital ones.
Today I have been reading Sandra Fulton's "The Messie's Superguide". I am naturally disorganized, I have ADD and I am a bit of a packrat. I managed to keep a decent house during my marriage, but when I had 2 kids in 15 months, I found it impossible to keep up. On top of that, I have had health problems, mental and physical, that have made it even worse for me to keep order in my house and in my life. I, like Helen Keller, need to learn new skills, "crack the code" and build upon new skills and knowledge.
I saw something in the New Testament that I interpreted as meaning something like, "do what you can to help others do better". I have to look it up. I even thought it could be interpreted as "it is okay to "manipulate" others when it if for a good cause." Maybe that is a bit of a stretch, but still, it made sense to me.
I think we should never give up on ourselves or on others. It is hard to not "give up" on some people, but I have made a decision to NEVER "give up" on anyone. I may have to withdraw, take a break, regroup, look for a different way to help (sometimes "back ing off" works wonders for everyone). There is a time to work and a time to rest, but we should not ever just "throw in the towel" "Don't become weary in well-doing" is something we are told in the New Testament.
I feel very optimistic.
Not feeling so optimistic anymore.
I still expect him to make needed changes. He is smart and if I can change, I know he can. I will not give up on him in the long run.
In the short run, I have to figure out how to not make it easy and pleasant for him to disrespect me.
I feel like I have also been like the parents of Helen Keller....I created a bit of a "monster" because it was easier to let things go than to demand better behavior. Making excuses and "caving in" to tantrums and letting myself be intimidated has been my pattern for 5 years, for the most part.
Putting my foot down and defending my boundaries is a 180.
Your framework has a problem. You are expecting and working on getting him to make changes, and it doesn't work that way. You can't make him do anything he doesn't want to do, and you can't make him want to either. You don't need to figure out how to make him feel differently about disrespecting you. What you need to do is to stop allowing yourself to be disrespected by changing what you say and what you do. You can only change what YOU think, say, or do. He may or may not change, but your best course is to learn to set your boundaries effectively.
We need some flexibility on holidays and also his schedule varies on Friday and Saturday. Saturday he usually schedules around soccer games, which are different times. Could be 11, could be as late as 4. These are league games that are scheduled in advance. he is pretty good about telling me Friday morning when to plan on Friday afternoon, but when he gets bogged down in work or something, I just keep her overnight. No big deal.
What I find intolerable is how I ask for 24 hour notice. I am still waiting for him to tell me when he wants me to pick her up today. I literally was awake ALL NIGHT (but I was in bed till about 4 a.m. resting my body) trying to figure out how to deal with this.
The onus is on him to communicate to ME when and where he will drop her off with me. He complains about having an anxiety attack every time I ask him a question or send him a text, but if I don't ask the question, I am sure to not get an answer. So I haven't asked.
What I think I will do is when he calls or texts (probably 30 minutes before he wants me to meet him to pick her up), I will tell him I am sorry, but I have made other plans and I won't be able to pick her up until 5. If he wanted me to get her sooner, he should have told me in advance so I could have arranged my schedule accordingly.
I think it would have been a little "passive-aggressive" for me to ignore his call or text like he does me.
If he is waiting me out to make me try to call or text him (so he can complain about me harassing him), I will just wait till Tuesday when he takes her to Preschool and I will keep her till Thursday afternoon to make up my parenting time. He doesn't like that. I did it last year....he must he forgotten. He will get mad at me and threaten to take me to court and get a parenting plan (I don't know if we can be forced to do a parenting plan since we were not married, and if we DO get a parenting plan, I will insist on "right of first refusal" because I don't want her in preschool anyway. That was supposed to be a temporary arrangement. I'd rather be schooling her myself and planning activities with her like I do on the other days, instead of him paying strangers to take care of her. He also has threatened to have his child support reassessed. He told me I will get NOTHING. He lost his job, but he is self-employed. I asked him how he can tell a judge that he isn't making any money and can't continue to pay child support, yet he can afford to pay the preschool hundreds of dollars a month(about $40 a month less than what he pays in child support for part time and he keeps offering to pay more to enroll her full time). He didn't have an answer for that and I always point out how his threats and intimidation are not healthy or helpful and he needs to learn new relationship and conflict resolution skills.
Why would anyone want to maintain a dysfunctional relationship? I keep trying to do all I can to make it better, but he doesn't want it better. I can't escape! I do have better coping skills now, but I still don't want a dysfunctional relationship, even though I am coping better.I know he isn't happy. I know he'd be happier if he was healthier emotionally. I was telling a friend that I feel like I almost know what it is like to have a family member who is a substance abuser who doesn't want to stop, even though he is hurting himself and others.
I really don't think you can be totally detached and share parenting of a preschooler and have to handle 4 exchanges a week. He doesn't want me to be detached...that is why he keeps stirring up trouble. He needs distance, yet he strives to keep me engaged.
What I think I will do is when he calls or texts (probably 30 minutes before he wants me to meet him to pick her up), I will tell him I am sorry, but I have made other plans and I won't be able to pick her up until 5. If he wanted me to get her sooner, he should have told me in advance so I could have arranged my schedule accordingly.
That's setting boundaries effectively. It has to do with what you will do if your need isn't met. You don't get to demand unilaterally, and so you must have a backup plan to save your sanity. The only part I think is missing is that you need to clarify this before, not during conflict. Clarify that you need to know by the day before at the latest, and if you don't have a firm plan from him by then you will be making your own plans for the day and may not be able to accommodate him. And then, let it happen, at least once, so you know you can do it and he knows you meant business and aren't a pushover anymore. Your own plans might be hiring a sitter, setting up an activity, whatever you can live with completely independently of your H if he's going to be unreliable. What would you do if he had an accident? Plan as if that happened and he could not be counted on to be there for you. This isn't punitive, it's "I feel anxious and unable to plan my day when I don't know our plans a day in advance. Therefore I would ask that you commit the day before. If I don't hear from you I'll make my own plans and may not be able to accommodate you." It's about YOU and what YOU will do, not punitive, not manipulative, just YOU getting YOUR reasonable needs met. Make sense?
I think it would have been a little "passive-aggressive" for me to ignore his call or text like he does me.
Passive aggressive is using your behavior to communicate something you're not saying. Since you have a kid together I would say be the adult and answer his calls. It's fine to not respond immediately to a text that doesn't call for a response, that's being busy, not passive aggressive. Busy is mysterious and attractive, and doesn't look like pursuit.
I feel like I almost know what it is like to have a family member who is a substance abuser who doesn't want to stop, even though he is hurting himself and others.
I've been trying to hold back from offering the suggestion that you look into what co-dependence is about, but this statement here supports what I'm thinking. Learning about codependence may help you to understand where the lines are between you and him. You're not responsible for his behavior, nor his "recovery." And he's not responsible for how you feel or how you act. Learning about this may be helpful to you.
He doesn't want me to be detached...that is why he keeps stirring up trouble. He needs distance, yet he strives to keep me engaged.
Learning about codependence, and learning loving detachment will help you to see that this sentence can be completely irrelevant to how you feel or act. Should be.
I am working on my boundaries. I hope when he sees that he's not having his way with me anymore that he will make some changes of his own.
I am so glad I learned some coping skills and feel so much more in control of myself. It is keeping my stress level WAY lower than it used to be. This is a frustrating situation, but I am not going to give up.
I know he would be a lot happier, too, if he would deal with his issues. I think he knows what to to get the support he needs to make changes. He just has to WANT to. I think part of him does want to, but he is afraid. He'd rather maintain the situation as it is. Sorry, I'm going to be changing the situation from MY end and he will have to adapt one way or another. He is a good, intelligent man. I think he will get help when he gets uncomfortable enough. And if he doesn't, I'll still survive.
Thanks for your help!
I have a LONG history of "co-dependency issues" and I think my personality is such that I will always have the tendency to go in that direction!
I have, on NUMEROUS occasions asked him to give me advance notice, 24 hours PLEASE. He usually gives it to me BUT ONLY IF I ASK. One new thing I am working on is to give HIM the responsibility of communicating pickup/drop off time (Saturday is usually the only day it is an issue...other times are usually stable). I have a life of my own and 2 other kids I need to plan for! He has agreed that it is not unreasonable to give me 24 hours notice and he has agreed that it is not unreasonable for HIM to take responsibility for communicating that to me. ESPECIALLY since he gets so irritated when I ask him questions. I have never been able to satisfy him. I am ready to stop trying. I am going to focus more on what I want and need.
What has been your "or else" in those numerous occasions, and did you implement it? If not, you did not set a boundary.
Well, Saturday he had to pay $26 in drop-in child care fees because when he texted me at 10:15 and asked me if I could pick her up at 1, I said "No"..I could get her after 5. I texted him later to tell him that since I had not heard anything different, I assumed that he didn't need me at any special time.
I really hope something will change....it has gotten progressively worse over the past year and a half and we have 14 more years to go!
I have had to just give up. I really think at this point in my life, If I can't have a good relationship, if the other person isn't willing to have a healthy relationship, it's better to have no relationship at all or really minimal contact. I hate that. I really think people should want to have good relationships where everyone feels good about what is going on.
So... what does "give up" look like, for you? What is your plan (personally, M wise, other relationships, possible dating, etc)?
We remain here to support you, not matter what you choose.
"Give Up" just meant not hoping or expecting or working towards having a workable relationship. We have had minimal contact since my last post. I have asked him to drop her off at the Y day care so we avoid contact. He keeps asking me to come to his house to pick her up because it is more convenient for him (but 20 miles out of my way!).
I keep switching gears. I have been trying for years to figure out exactly what he is thinking and exactly what the problem is and how to fix it. He doesn't want anything fixed. He doesn't even want to go back to the pretty good rapport we had a couple of years ago.
I blocked his phone number. He hung up on me the other day when I tried to get him to talk about our problems. I called him 20 times over the next day and a half and when I reached that magic number, I left him a message saying I was blocking his number. He was able to send me a text this morning when he dropped my daughter off at day care, to let me know I could pick her up.
My plan is to not communicate with him at all unless and until he decides he wants to communicate with me on MY terms. We basically have a routine down. If there is some emergency, we can use a third party as a go-between to send a message. I require that he do what he has not been willing to do in over a year and a half, and what I did not do when he offered, because I was too pissed off with him: Sit down and have a heart-to-heart talk. He needs to be open and honest with me. He needs to be able to look me in the eye when he talks to me. He needs to want to have a good rapport and he needs to help me understand how he feels. I don't know what will happen. I want to have a good relationship. If I can't, I don't want to have any contact with him at all.
I don't understand why he can't look me in the eye. Either he really doesn't like me or else he likes me and he doesn't want to. My teen-aged daughter was with me the other day and a strange thing happened: He acted like I was "normal" and not somebody he was treating weirdly. He smiled and looked at me when he talked to me and when he was listening to me (I NEVER feel like he is listening to me unless he is looking at me!) I told him that either 1. He got distracted when my daughter was there and forgot to play his "game" of avoiding eye contact to annoy me. 2. He didn't want to act weird in front of my daughter. 3. He got distracted and "dropped his guard" and acted happy and relaxed around me like he used to.
I have a friend who just got diagnosed with "terminal" stage 4 stomach cancer. I am praying for God to heal him. I have more faith that God can cure cancer than that he can cure my exBF's bad attitude. I am constantly trying to improve myself and to figure out what I can do to make things better. I am leaving things up to God. Asking for what I want and believing he'll make it come to pass.
I am open to dating, I have a couple of guys I see and keep in touch with from time to time. I am not looking for anyone new, but I'm open it something drops in my lap.
If he'd simply treat me like he treats everyone else, and like he treated me a couple of years ago, that is all I require. I would like a romantic relationship with him...if he could meet my needs, he would fit into my life a lot better than someone new...but I am not trying to get him to fall in love and marry me.
I don't know if he is still acting out his anger and resentment because I started dating other men a year and a half ago, or if he is keeping his distance because he is really attracted to me but is scared of intimacy.
I thought it was better for us to be happy apart than miserable together, but I never thought we couldn't be happy together if he wanted to be. We are not happy apart. Clearly. But I can not do anything directly. If he wants me, he'll have to come get me. The reason I would not sit and talk with him a year and a half ago is because I didn't think there would be any real change. I think he was just wanting to string me along and throw me enough crumbs to keep me waiting. I could not live off those crumbs and he never gave me any reason to think that anything would ever be any better.
I am doing okay. I'm not terribly stressed. I am not lonely. I am not angry or bitter. I just told him that we needed to address the underlying problems. Me avoiding seeing him was just a "bandaid" but even if it made me feel better, it was not resolving anything.
I want to peel off the layers of the "onion" and get to the heart of the matter and deal with whatever issues are keeping us from acting like normal people in a healthy relationship.
If he doesn't want to clear up the problems and communicate with me effectively, I'm going to keep my distance in every way. I am going to expect him to contact me soon and want to talk. I am going to expect that we will work out our issues and be able to have a healthy coparenting relationship. I am going to expect him to act like the good friend I used to know him to be. I don't know how long it will take. I am not going to be holding my breath or watching the clock. He can take all the time he wants. But I am going to stay out of his life. I don't know what I will do when we run into problems. I guess I will wing-it.
I have really been wanting to see an improvement in my relationship with my daughter's dad. I just today realized that I cannot control the relationship.I might have known that on an intellectual level, but I didn't really "GET IT." I always knew I could not control him, but I have always tried to make things "better" and I have been frustrated and confused and surprised to see things not go as I expected. I guess my "trying to fix the relationship" is just an indirect way of me trying to control HIM. I know some things I need to do. 1. Stop trying to "fix the relationship" The one who cares the least is the one who has the power and I know I am ALWAYS going to care more about the relationship than he is, so I need to hand over the reins. I don't WANT to be the one who cares least. 2. Make positive changes in myself and my attitude. 3. Bite my tongue when I feel annoyed or disappointed. 4. Make every interaction a happy and pleasant and positive one that
will help him have positive feelings that he associates with being around me. 5. When he acts weird for no reason, I should let it go. He is entitled to his bad days and being cranky sometimes. I should not take it personally or have a chip on my shoulder. If he has a chip on his shoulder, I should just avoid him (which is very easy to do since I have gone 3 weeks without being around him or speaking to him) till the mood passes, and it will pass, and more quickly if I don't make a big deal about it.6. Admire and respect and appreciate all the wonderful things about him as a person and as a father. 7. Learn the difference between encouraging and pressuring and avoid pressuring. 8. Continue in prayer and don't get in God's way. 9. Open my heart to him and not harbor bitterness from things he has done in the past. 10. Wait patiently.
2 years ago things were really good in our co-parenting relationship (the only problem was that I wanted a boyfriend and he didn't want that kind of a relationship with me, and he didn't want me involved with another man, either). I don't think it is ALL my fault that things are so bad now, but I know I have not always acted or reacted in a loving and respectful way. I really miss us doing things together as a family and I hope we can start doing some things together again. I would love to have the rapport we had those first 7 1/2 months before he dumped me, but even then he would act weird a lot of the time and it upset me. That is just how he is and I need to accept it and expect it and don't insist that he stop being that way or try to shame him into acting differently. In the past 5 1/2 years there have been very few times when he really did something bad to me, and even then, I don't think he meant to hurt me. Many, many times I made a big deal out
of something and probably damaged the relationship because I didn't want to just let something go. I knew I was right and he was wrong and I wanted him to know it and admit it, too. I know he has feelings for me, and I have feelings for him, but they have been buried by a lot of hurt and resentment. I have to say I love him, but I haven't liked him a lot of the time, and there have been plenty of times I felt like I hated him, but I know it was just anger or frustration. I have been praying for peace, but I think that is really within my control. It is one of the fruits of the spirit. I need to have a peaceful attitude. I had a chance last night and also today to get my hackles up and I exercised my self-control and didn't make an issue out of it. I will take a stand when I need to, but I need to let most things go.
I have always hated to be around people who are always looking for something to get mad about. I sure don't want to be one of those people myself, but I think I have been.
I will be so happy if we can enjoy our daughter's birthday party together in October. But that will also be a test for me. If I ask him to join us, and he says, "No, thanks." I need to let it go. He won't know what to do with himself when I am talking to him almost daily, yet not trying to tell him what he should or shouldn't do and asking him why he isn't acting the way I think he should. Maybe that is why when I just withdrew totally, it made things worse instead of better. We need to interact in a positive way. Avoiding interaction all together was inconvenient and unhelpful. Sometimes you deal with problems best by working through them and not going around them. Reminds me of "Going on a Bear Hunt" and when you come to the tall grass or the mountain or the river, you "Can't go over it, can't go under it, can't go around it, you have to go THROUGH it" and when you get through a problem together, it is good practice and experience and it gives you confidence
that the next challenge is one that will overcome, too.