Random journaling.
S15: I told him yesterday that it takes 45 days for the traces of pot to clear out of his blood. I told him he would somehow need to earn back my trust, and for now it would be by staying clean for 45 days so when I get him tested again it's negative. We'll put an appointment on the calendar for 45 days from now. He's doing great in lacrosse so far and seems to be really enjoying it. He gets lots of goals.
H: texted me about the start time for today's game but didn't end up coming; I don't know what happened. S15 told me H had texted him earlier today but his phone is cracked and he can't read texts. S12 also heard from H today because he came into the kitchen asking me to measure his height because dad wanted to know.
S15 got hurt in the game, and our go-to after hours doc is who H is living with, so I went to see him for the first time since H moved there in December. There was an awkward will-it-be-a-hug-or-a-handshake so I gave him a hug. Not an enthusiastic one but a polite one. I had been wondering what I would do, and that was what I did. S15 will be fine. I thought I'd better alert H that we did that, so I called him to tell him that 1) S got hurt and we saw doc/friend and it'll be fine and 2) S told me he got a text but couldn't read it.
H said he texted him about renting mountain bikes for part of spring break to see if he's interested. There are two different trips they could do. I said H could email S what he texted since S gets email.
I haven't spoken to H yet about the progress on handling S15 and the drug issue, or that S15 snuck out, or that S12 got his sleep study results and probably needs a tonsillectomy because his sleep is not healthy. I haven't asked H when he would like to reschedule the talk that he cancelled. I do not want to discuss complex health/legal/personal matters via text, and I do not like being expected to have these discussions at whatever odd time H shows up in my presence. I guess I need to ask him again if he would like to meet face to face so we can talk about the kids.
I suppose by expressing my need to have scheduled and planned time to talk about things like this, I have made it difficult and uncomfortable for H, since he tends to try to make hard and fast rules to follow out of every request I make asking him to modify his behavior. Not trying to mindread but just trying to observe that I need to just take action with H according to what I think is best or most effective rather than what I think will work for him. Honestly I would prefer to be left alone by him because I resent being judged and criticized and found wanting by this person who chooses to wash his hands of it all and live elsewhere and leave me to deal with the fallout.
Anyway, it's not like he's avoiding us entirely, he did make it to a second lacrosse game this past week and sat next to me and we were polite and friendly but mainly just watching the game.
New topic: I've been trying to figure out why my communication pattern with my sister is unsuccessful since it seems similar to what was wrong with me & my H as well. Things don't get said, get misinterpreted, people get frustrated and don't say anything, everyone thinks they're being nice and they're getting mad and won't admit it. Like that. I've been watching it more closely with my sister and find that she really seems to be trying to get everyone around her to do things she wants done. Like, she just texted me to ask about if she could give my kids scuba lessons for their birthdays. (Typical of my sister and brother, to come up with a wildly over the top grandiose kind of present, four months after not doing anything about the actual birthday, and something that requires the other person or other people to do significant work to implement...)
After going back and forth in a frustrating way via text, I called her and asked where this idea came from, since we don't live near water and don't really have money to travel and dive. She has a friend who is doing scuba and thought it would be cool. Her friend however is an adult and has a job and is doing scuba because he'll be going diving. My kids would need me to take them somewhere and pay for them to dive. Which maybe we would do someday but right now I'm in the middle of a possible divorce, financially strapped, and have no time to be taking them back and forth to these lessons they didn't ask for and don't have use for. This is running through my mind. This is typical too, she believes she's being really nice, and I end up being really resentful while at the same time thinking I'm being unreasonable.
I left it as this: 1. She should ask them if they want scuba lessons and tell them what it entails and why she thinks it would be cool and fun for them. If they're into the idea I will not say not. 2. If she wanted to know what they actually asked for for their birthdays, it's a small amount of money that they can buy something with since they have no money of their own and like to buy stuff for themselves, like $20. 3. I forgot to mention that they are not a unit and rarely like to do the same thing at the same time. This present idea is a lot more about her seeming super cool than it is about them, what they would want, who they are.
She and I also butted heads on the issue of my mom. My mom at 80 has changed her initial position and has decided she will do chemo after all. I'm surprised because she does not seem like a fighter, she has said over and over she has had a great life and she doesn't want to live it sick from chemo. My sister said the doctor wants to poison her to death with chemo. She knows one person who had chemo at an advanced age and refused to eat and died from infected bedsores because he could no longer get up and walk around. My sister wants my dad to be more proactive in caregiving, she wants me to get on my dad's case, she wants me to ask my neighbor to write my mom a letter to make my mom eat, she wants my dad to force my mom to eat and take pain medication she doesn't want to take, on and on and on I heard idea after idea that involved someone else doing something my sister wants them to do. I tried to just listen as much as I could, and I offered to discuss things with my mom and dad and report back to her what my impressions were.
I met with them today and learned that my dad is way more informed than she made him out to be, they have very good reason to be optimistic that chemo will eradicate the remnants of the cancer, they have a plan in place to reduce or eliminate nausea and they believe her main side effect will be a few days of being very tired after each of the 6 cycles, but not more than a few days each time. It sure doesn't sound like being poisoned to death. My mom is most concerned about losing her hair and having to wear a wig. They seem in good spirits, like they know what they're doing, and ready to give it a shot. They rolled their eyes about the juice and vitamins my sister is pushing from her internet research, but they seem willing to try to let her help too.
I feel bad that my sister feels helpless in this situation, but my dad is competent and my parents want to be in charge of their medical issues. I'm trying to hear my sister when she talks like I'm not doing enough, but I'm trying to balance that because she's not living my life and has no idea what I can do or think I should do.
I'm behind on work again so I'm probably not going to do much separation agreement stuff this weekend. I ended up spending most of today visiting my parents, driving to and from lacrosse and the doctor, and that's about it.
A,
I am going to add something to your to do list. It is something that you can make fun though...
Take your mom shopping before the chemo starts for a wig or two that she likes. Have her try them on, even ones that are nothing she might ever wear, you know...a sort of girls day.
My grandmother wore a wig all of the 16 years that she was in my life. Not because of chemo, but because of too many perms and hair coloring before the chemicals were as gentle as they are today. Basically burned her roots and went bald.
Anyway, even in the 1970's there were some really cool wigs out there. And because she had a few of them, she could change her look with her mood and always had at least one clean and styled and ready to go...
And believe it or not, if you didn't know it was a wig, you couldn't tell. I swear.
Wow, Ad. You have so much on your plate... I really feel for you.
I wanted to comment on one of the topics you mentioned about your sister.
It must be really tough for you to be patient with her when you recognize her controlling behaviors (which she could easily be unaware of herself) when it come to your mom's cancer treatment. Perhaps it stems from a real fear and worry she feels re. your mom's health and her lack of knowledge re. chemo treatments in older folks.
I'll share my experience in hopes that perhaps it might help ease some her worries.
My dad is 87 and started chemo treatment for prostate cancer last summer. As a family, we also had divided opinions on whether he should go through it, given his age. Yet we all respected his decision to do it. He has completed 10 of 12 cycles. After the first two cycles, he became really weak (from severe and chronic diarreah) and other side effects, including bad nausea. As a result, he lost a ton of weight and ended up in the hospital for a few days.
It turned out his doses was too strong. Once the Dr. adjusted it, all side effects disappeared, he started eating, regained his weight and strength and is now leading his normal life. He had a scan last week and everything is clean. He now has only 2 cycles left, which he plans to complete just to be safe.
His Dr. had re-assured us from the get-go that chemo treatments have come a long way from the horror stories of side effects we used to hear and there are a lot more options in terms of how to deal with them. She turned out to be right.
I am so grateful that my dad's body withstood the treatments and he is clean today. Yet, regardless of the outcome, he ended up doing what he wanted and I know he appreciated our support, our respecting his decision and not letting our fears and worries about his health and well-being divide us as a family.
No matter what, it's a scary thing to go through, no question. Ad, I really hope things turn out well for your mom and your family.
(((((Ad)))))
You don't have time to deal with scuba lessons period -- just say "no" and leave it at that.
Things don't get said, get misinterpreted, people get frustrated and don't say anything, everyone thinks they're being nice and they're getting mad and won't admit it. Like that. I've been watching it more closely with my sister and find that she really seems to be trying to get everyone around her to do things she wants done.
90% of communication is non-verbal. Are you contributing tone or body language that may be fueling this? If you see it as a pattern in many people you interact with then either it's something about you reflecting back, or you're unlucky to attract or be related to a few people with a similar dysfunction. Either is probably equally as likely or a mix? Something to discuss with T? I have observed that when you don't agree with people you can come on very strong with an implied "so there!" at the end. Maybe that contributes? Don't know.
If she wanted to know what they actually asked for for their birthdays,
Some people like to ask what you want and give you exactly that. Some people like to surprise you with something they feel you will like, some people like to share with you something they like. Are any of those approaches wrong? Why?
This present idea is a lot more about her seeming super cool than it is about them, what they would want, who they are.
Harsh judgement no? Okay if you are venting
My sister said the doctor wants to poison her to death with chemo. She knows one person who had chemo at an advanced age and refused to eat and died from infected bedsores because he could no longer get up and walk around
Your sister is scared! She feels helpless and isn't used to it. She's trying to do anything to give herself a feeling of control. Maybe talk to her about her fear?
Accuray
Yes acc, there is a pattern and I have been working diligently with my IC on it for approaching two years now, and it is that when my needs are being run over I put them down, deny them, or fail to recognize them in the first place, and then feel resentful without even understanding why.
I have a pattern of feeling bad for disagreeing with something that on the surface seems really nice like my sister's birthday present proposal.
I have a pattern of allowing manipulative people to run over me.
I'm trying to change those things.
What does an implied so there look like, and how does one disagree without it?
What does an implied so there look like: raise eyebrows slightly, tilt head slightly to one side and back again...:P
Seriously though, it is so great that you are working on these interactions. My H is very much like you and his pattern his whole life has been just to get away, jettison everything and start again- like not acknowledging things makes them go away. So, he has never learned to deal effectively with these parts of his personality. I am glad you are
Tell S truth: sounds totally amazing, but there is so much in our lives right now, that we could not commit to one more activity. Give her a hug and tell her you love her for thinking of your boys.
Tell S truth: sounds totally amazing, but there is so much in our lives right now, that we could not commit to one more activity. Give her a hug and tell her you love her for thinking of your boys.
^^^^ Great way of approaching this in a loving way while expressing your needs/concerns!
Hi adinva,
You may want to have a look at the book "Boundaries". It is written from a religious perspective, which gives it a certain flavor, but even without this, I think it is useful.
Good luck,
Luke
What does an implied so there look like, and how does one disagree without it?
This is obviously highly nuanced and I'd have to go back to find some examples. Go back and look at your posts when people made you angry (CV, Cat, etc.), maybe it will jump out at you?
One way to disagree is to state how you feel, or how you interpret, versus trying to state fact. For example, if someone says something you believe is complete BS and makes you angry, you can say:
"You are wrong and your opinions are hateful!" (so there!)
-- or you can say:
"I don't agree with that, and it makes me feel badly to read it"
The first one is about them and their wrongness, the second one is about you and how you feel. No one can debate how you feel about something.
The first one is going to escalate the situation, or shut it down with hurt feelings. The second one might lead to a productive discussion -- "why don't you agree?, why does it make you feel badly?"
I'm positive you know this already so I doubt I'm helping, but you asked and I'm doing my best.
Accuray
Acc, it does help. What you said appeared an unconstructive insult because it was so vague and subjective; since I didn't understand what you were talking about I could not envision or possibly do anything about what you suggested I was doing.
Your explanation takes it out of vague insult territory and into the realm of constructive criticism, so I appreciate that. However I'll have to explore more to find an example because I'm pretty sure it was a lot more subtle than "so there" - I don't believe I've said that or would.
But in the abstract... When I think someone has said something to me that's both wrong and hurtfully expressed, I can believe I respond strongly.
Cat's not a good example because I don't recall being actually mad at her. There was a series of times where she said I had not changed, and I knew that I had changed because I would proceed to tell her how, but I also knew that there was some other kind of change she was really looking for, which I didn't really understand. That was pretty frustrating. But I feel like her challenges and my justifications provided an opportunity to look harder at what I was doing. I'm not sure my justifications were offensive to her; I think if she wasn't trying to help me get somewhere she wouldn't have bothered coming to my thread.
Crazyville yes, I've been mad at. She's a very smart and funny person and I know I'd like her a lot in real life, but the way she used to speak of her H could almost be channeling my H speaking of me. It's excruciatingly hurtful at times. When she came over to criticize me on the day we were telling our kids we were breaking up their family, I was very upset. I don't even think I said I told you so, nor cited any facts as is my usual argumentative style. I think I just told her that was pretty crummy. And she apologized. I'm actually not sorry that I didn't accept that on that day.
But we do get a little closer to what the issue is that I'm working on with my sister. It's like this: if I don't like what you said, I feel mad that you said it in the first place. It's a control thing. I don't do it to everyone. It's like only certain people get so close inside your personal boundary that they can hurt you and you want to be able to control their ability to do that by making sure they have all the information they need to arrive at only the right conclusions in the first place.
When I first walked into IC with my H the very first thing we discussed was the difficulty of understanding and accepting different realities, and the necessity of learning how to navigate between those realities without hurting each other. I got a fair amount of practice at that with H while he lived here. I learned to try to understand the interpretations he was placing on certain facts that caused him to have certain emotions, while my interpretations of the same facts led to different emotions. I learned to recognize the boundary of my own reality, so that his words and nonverbal messages could come up to me and be evaluated before I would react, so I could respond with my own sense of identity/beliefs/thoughts and not simply react at gut level.
I think this thing with my sister is similar. I find myself wanting to control what comes out of her mouth, and so being angry that it did, rather than being able to let her have her own reality that's different from mine. Again, I think you have to be very very close to someone to have that kind of a problem. You're so close that you fail to understand how different you perceive things, and that that is OK.
I also notice when I'm not taking good care of myself, my fuse is shorter, so that's in play too.
Anyway, hope I haven't bored everyone to death.
Feeling proud of myself; our furnace broke and ifigured out how to get it fixed.
H emld me about sharing dependent medical expenses. I told him i think we need to get a written agreement in place as the expenses are getting more complicated, and i will get moving on that.
I also told him we still need to schedule time for a conversation about the kids and reminded him that two weeks have passed since the one he cancelled.
He changed the spring break plan from atv to a mountain bike activity. Thru me S15 said he didnt want to do mountain biking but wd like to do a campout. Last night H decided on Busch Gardens and bought tix. He called me at 10:30 to make sure he had all our birthdates right and to tell me that he thought hed buy my ticket even if i wasnt going to go on this trip. I agreed bc of course i will be going this season. Seemed like h was trying to make a decision without forcing the issue of whether i go or not. So i need to decide and feel like i should go bc 1) it wd smooth things with S15 if were all going and 2) i wd have fun.
But i dont know. It wasnt clear if h has an opinion, it was late and i was feeling nauseated from being sick so it was a very brief call.
I think if I go with the family to Busch Gardens I will get my own room. I've seen many other people on here do family trips and share a bedroom. I could see myself doing it, and I share a bed with S12 and H with S15 or, actually a lot more likely, S15 would get his own rollaway.
I read that it is very confusing for kids whose parents are divorcing to see them acting like this, they get their hopes up that maybe their parents will stay together. I think I read that in The Unintended Legacy of Divorce. Even if I hadn't read that, I would think that the acting my H and I have done was hard for the kids. We acted like we got along for 18 months in which we were not actually working on the marriage at all, so H's all-nighters and the huge amount of quality time he was spending with his friend and other people than his family were very confusing. And then telling them he was moving out came out of left field and took the ground from beneath their feet.
In my opinion, in my situation, it is time for us to act like divorced people. I think it would not be appropriate for me to share a hotel room with H. I think it would be very nice to meet for a day at the amusement park all four of us.
I wonder if those of you who know my specific situation would let me know if you think this makes sense.
I have very close friends who we have always stayed with when we were in that town, so it's a first for any of us to stay in a hotel room at all. If my friends knew we were coming they would invite us to stay there, and if necessary I'm pretty sure they would even be polite and friendly to H and say of course he's welcome too. I'm pretty sure trying to get two rooms instead of the one we usually stay in there would be imposing. I think H made the right choice not even bringing them up and going ahead to get a hotel room.
Although we have known this couple since S15 was born, and we've camped and socialized and stayed with them, I feel very much that they're my friends and not so much H's. When I needed an escape after BD and a place to go to recover, sleep late, and talk over wine or coffee, it was with these friends. It would be very weird for me to be in town and not see or stay with them.
All this turmoil in my head is to figure out what I want. I like the amusement park, I love going places with my kids, I think a fun day out with H would be healthy for us, and of course at the back of my mind I also think my being there makes it easier for S15 to go somewhere "with" H.
H has not been really clear about what he wants. He called me late at night and with me sick on top of it, I only remember him saying he was buying me a park ticket and if I didn't go with us I'd probably use it anyway, and I agreed that was true. After that, he sent the three of us an email:
We have hotel in Williamsburg Wed and Thursday night. We should arrive early Wed. Our passes are good through Sept 2 so we can use them all summer.
So I don't actually know if I'm invited but it kind of sounds like it because he didn't specifically say it was him and the kids. I don't know where he thinks I'll be sleeping. I don't know how involved in this trip he wants me to be. I feel silly inviting myself along and getting in the middle of it if he was thinking he'd take the boys away for a trip. I feel absolutely sure if I ask him any of these questions he'll say "whatever you want is fine, if you want to go or stay home that's fine, if you want to stay in our room or not that's fine." If I ask him what he WANTS he'll say, "I don't care it doesn't matter." He leaves these things to me.
So I thought I'd think out what is best to me, what is best for me, and for the kids, before he tells me to do whatever it is that I prefer.
//I wonder if those of you who know my specific situation would let me know if you think this makes sense.//
No, none of this makes sense to me. Your husband waking up, realizing he has a family and stopping this nonsense is what makes sense. Outside of that, it is all a little rediculous. With what you can control, however, I think a little distance and privacy would be good. A seperate room would give you that.
//I feel silly inviting myself along and getting in the middle of it//
I don't think this is silly. This is your family and you are still married. Of course you want to be a part of the vacation. He is a big boy, if he doesn't want you there, he can say so.
Rock, sometimes I think the only time he's been a big boy in the last 24 years was the night he told me he was miserable and didn't want to be married to me anymore.
Separate room for sure Ad, no question. I think your instincts about the kids are right on. I also think you can't lose if you go or don't go -- either is fine, and you should feel free to stay with your friends while H stays in a hotel and not feel at all awkward about that. You are separated and this is what separated people do right?
Just catching up here. I'd say a separate room is a good idea.
The stuff with your sister is tough. I have a similar deal with my mom. Working on that in IC & reading facing Codependence by Pia mellody.
Hope you are feeling better!
I'd stay with the friends.
It's so much easier to be strong in other people's threads.
H came over to work on our taxes on our computer and I was there part of the time. (As I was headed out on an errand I asked him if he'd like me to bring him any tax-doing snacks or drinks; I think that was nice of me. He declined though.) But as he got ready to go I asked him "So, what's the plan for W'burg this week?"
He said "Well, we'll drive down early Weds and come home Friday. I got us a hotel room about a mile from the park entrance, and I got the tickets we can use until September. It was a package deal and breakfast is included." I said "Great! that sounds really good." He said "Oh yeah I never did mention to our friends that we'd be there, we probably should see if they're around." I said "yeah, I'll let them know we're coming."
I was getting uncomfortable with my decision and having trouble spitting it out. Then I said, "Um, so how many rooms did you book?" He said one. I said "Well, I think probably we should have two rooms don't you? Well, don't worry about it I'll see what I can do. Maybe I'll stay with our friends. I do think it's great that you'll be so close to the park since that always adds so much time for driving there and parking."
What's hard for me is that it would be so normal for us all to share a room. It is so normal for us to be frugal and not pay for two rooms when we could have one. It is so normal for us to put down any silly needs for the greater good. It is so fun to be all in one room, watching tv together, getting room service together, enjoying the kids (or not) together. And the feelings this brings up are the feelings of the old days, the marriage and family I LIKED, I was FINE with, I still WANT. And that, I believe, is gone. So it creates this little glimmer that things really are just like they were and this divorce really is unreal.
Half of me says that's silly and just go with the flow, don't be a party pooper and insist that we are SEPARATED and should act like it, then I'm the meany changing things that could be just fine and fun. But I'm not, he's the one wanting to end our marriage, he's the one not living with us. I'm just trying to live out the reality that he put in place.
But me getting my own place will bring up questions the kids will ask, why are you in a different room, why can't we be in your room, can we be in your room? Why do you get to stay with our friends and not us? And it will be a weird different kind of vacation where I meet them places instead of be right in the middle of it.
I guess the relevant thing is, if even just thinking about all this is painful and confusing for me, and sets up expectations that maybe we'll really be ok and drop this divorce thing, is it doing this in the kids' heads too?
The kids love our friends. They have a really cute little boy and a nice dog and cat, and it's great to stay in their house with them. I will expect that if I stay there I'll definitely be asked by the kids why they can't too. And I will not make my h's plan for a family vacation into H staying all alone in a hotel while the rest of us hang out with our friends. The kids must stay at the hotel with H and get their free breakfast and be close to the park, that's non negotiable.
I felt sick to my stomach trying to get to sleep after even suggesting to H that I should get a second room. This in-between not married not yet divorced haven't even started negotiating the separation agreement but knowing it's coming stage is VERY HARD on me emotionally. I feel like a raw nerve ending.
Not an easy decision, AD.
I absolutely agree that your relationship and interaction with your H will be confusing to your kids, regardless of what those interactions might be. If you want nothing to do with him, they will wonder why. Both of you will be suspect in the minds of the kids and then... they will also possibly suspect themselves as being the reason. In just the same way that they will have hopes if the two of you are even civil with each other, never mind going on a trip together and staying in the same room.
Going on this outing in the first place will send mixed messages to the kids, in the same way as not going along, even though there is a ticket for you. In the same way as travelling together, yet staying in separate rooms or staying in separate buildings.
AD. You need to decide what YOU want, here. What ever you do... or do not... will have positive and negative consequences...
Friends can share a room... or friends can travel separately... You have accepted the ticket from your H and the ride. Why could you not accept the room?
Of course, I am only speaking to your sitch. I would go with a friend. I would travel together. And I would share a room with them. Even if your kids thought that maybe the two of you were to get back together, at the very least they would see that the two of you can get along.
We aren't friends. I'm his adversary in an upcoming legal case, although we're trying to be civil and cooperate with each other for the good of our kids. So I wouldn't share a room with him on the basis that we're friends, because we aren't.
I also wouldn't share a hotel room with a male friend; I would get my own room, it's just more appropriate to me.
I shared a room with this man for 18 months that he didn't look at me, touch me, connect emotionally with me, or give me one scrap of human concern or kindness, and the reason I did that was so my kids wouldn't know their family was in trouble in case we were able to turn it around in counseling. During that time, it was very painful for me to be in such close quarters with him. He would walk around naked or lie around in boxers like I was nothing more than a piece of furniture in the room. On this trip, I can ask him to dress in the bathroom and stay clothed in the room, which I feel is out of line since it's his space, or I can get my own space where I can be comfortable and have privacy and not feel like I'm being treated like a piece of furniture without feelings.
I don't think I need to pretend that I'm fine with sharing a hotel room with a man who does not love me and has no interest in being married to me, in order for the kids to "see that the two of us can get along." They would be actually seeing that mom pretends she has no feelings so that it can look like she and dad get along. Playing all day at the amusement park together is getting along enough.
I ran it by my sister and my brother tonight. My sister said I should share the room. She thought maybe it was an overture toward reconciling and I shouldn't push it away. I believe in my heart that if my H ever makes an overture toward reconciling it won't be so ambiguous and subtle. In fact, I'm not coming back to a marriage where love and desire are assumed rather than expressed, and "you big baby" is the upper limit in affection. If I don't know he really wants to try, I'm not going to hear and guess, interpret and assume. I might even need an engraved notice. After almost two years of being told pointblank by him not to have any hope and not to have any expectation, the fact that I wasn't actively not-invited on this trip is not even close to an overture. The very fact that she thought it might be, and in the bottom of my heart I thought it too for a second, is just why it would be hurtful and confusing to share a room on this trip.
My brother on the other hand, said H was oblivious of social graces and thinks it was inappropriate to assume we'd stay together.
I'm aware I'm overthinking it. I just have a sick feeling about suppressing my feelings and staying in the room with him, and I have a sick feeling about being the one who insists on separate rooms. I have a sick feeling thinking about staying home which I really don't want to, and I have a good feeling about being at the park together riding the rides. I have a sick feeling about getting divorced, but I have a good feeling about being past being divorced.
A year after we're divorced, when we've been dating other people and moving on with our lives, there is no way I could see myself vacationing with and sharing a hotel room with him. I think it's confusing now because we're more used to being married, but we're much closer to being divorced than to being married right now.
I think not sharing a room is the only sane decision here.
I think of Similar dilemmas when my h does the smallest nice thing towards me. If our h ever want to restore our marriages they gonna have to do more then make a small gesture. We deserve more.
Sounds like a fun trip, maybe separate space will be more fun for the whole family. Atleast it may give you some time alone to catch up with an old friend
Ad, that was sad to read. You deserve to be in a room with someone who loves you and appreciates you, someone who really looks at you.
He's not that someone so I vote for your own room. I think you'd be more comfortable.
(((())))
AD, is there some way you can go separately?
I think that while you might feel you are over thinking this, I do believe that it is good to look at both, very polar scenarios. Personally, I would not go on the trip.
Is there any reason and way that you could turn the trip into a mini vacation for yourself, travelling alone, meeting your kids and H for the time at the park, and then spending some extra time in the area alone, as a tourist?
Just to clarify the two different scenarios that I depicted. In the first, I said I would go with a friend and share a room.
My reality is the latter, which is that I do not consider my eX a friend, in any way. Even if I am civil with her.
Oh, KD, thanks for clarifying. I have a small number of friends and I treasure them. It's not a label I apply lightly. I thought you meant going with the x-spouse "as friends".
Interesting ideas and I'll think about them all. I feel less panicky when I realize this time next week I won't have to wonder about it anymore.
Hi adinva,
My two cents, on staying in the same room:
I would not do so, for a few reasons:
o I find it a creepy way to reconcile, if that is his goal
o if find it too sudden a jump on the path to reconciliation
o if anyone should offer to share a room in such a situation, it should be you, not him
o he still has the chance to reconcile on this trip, but in a different, cleaner, way
Good luck -
Luke
AD, good luck on your decision. It does sound like you know what you want and how you want to behave. Stick to your guns, don't let him pressure you to do something you are not comfortable with.
If it's the right decision for me, why do I feel sick to my stomach about it? and all of its alternatives...
If it's the right decision for me, why do I feel sick to my stomach about it? and all of its alternatives...
Good question, what are your thoughts as to why your stomach hurts? Your almost there keep exploring your feelings.
Rock, sometimes I think the only time he's been a big boy in the last 24 years was the night he told me he was miserable and didn't want to be married to me anymore.
BIngo...in my case I had to bring that particular conversation up as well...lmao
If it's the right decision for me, why do I feel sick to my stomach about it? and all of its alternatives...
This is the easiest to solve lmao....I don't know about you but these decisions always make me feel queasy because they all have there what ifs....What if it is the wrong decision fo me? What if this goes to hell in a hand basket? What if I screw it up and it ruins any chance I may have? What if H thinks the opposite of my actions...What if, what if?
This trip is putting the teeter totter off balance when you were just gaining equilibrium back. It is perfectly normal to feel like this...
This is the only question for now...do YOU want to go? Yes or No? Find your answer, sit with it, make list of pros and cons and those pros and look at the pros and cons. You can then decide if YOU have more pros, if kids have more pros, if it is something you can do at this particular point.
Also if pass is good for summer, take Ss later on, your own little trip. Sit on this a bit
Queasy, good word, that's it. I've got to focus on other stuff now, I'll think about this more later.
You might feel queasy because it's different and signifies another shift in your R with H and the family that was.
There is no perfect answer that is open to you. Your mindreading a lot about what your Ss may or may not think. They are going to have many different, uncomfortable, unwanted things come up in the future, not all of them having to do with your R with H. They will handle it when given the opportunity.
Have you asked the Ss what they might like?
Hi Ad,
Coming by to say I am supporting you. I think I can relate the queasiness and think Ruby identified correctly that is could be all of the 'what ifs' involved.
You have such a strong mind, I am confident you will come to a decision that you are comfortable with soon.
(((( ))))
Ad,
Do you ever just relax?
You are probably queasy because you are thinking so hard about this. Like you do just about every situation.
How do I know? Because I used to do similar things. I worked out every single scenario I could imagine. I let the monsters run free in my head to the point that if I could have charged them rent, I would be a rich woman.
Sure you are going to be adversaries in an upcoming legal battle. One that might not be so bad if you can develop a working relationship with your H now. And if the thought of reconciliation ever were to come up, it would definately be easier if you had a working relationship, instead of a relationship that looked like a chess match.
The legal and the emotional need to be separated and you are far from that right now.
What happened to living in the gray?
^^^Those are the "what ifs" being run with...lol
I always like to joke that when I get on a plane, I know exactly where the exits are and who I can leap over if necessary...
I guess Cat is saying that making a contingency for every what if is exhausting. Which is what I used to do. Now not so much, but I still catch myself once in a while
Not too much to offer, just thinking of you.
Sorry for how you are feeling, it's brutal that something that's supposed to be fun like going to an amusement park with your kids has to be the source of such pain.
Just from reading what you've written:
1). You really want to go on this trip
2). You really are not comfortable sharing a room with H
3). You want the boys to stay in the room with H
I think that's your answer.
I understand there are many uncomfortable downsides to getting your own room. H put you in a tough position by just assuming that sleeping in the same room would be fine. There is nothing at all wrong with getting your own room or staying with your friends alone. They have downsides but they are not wrong.
I admire that you want to go on the trip. Personally I couldn't take it to see the WAW smiling and laughing when I was torn up inside, it was much easier to avoid those scenarios
Thanks all. I am feeling better. Having this board is a godsend in so many ways, but it does feed the impulses of those of us who like to run all the scenarios and figure out the one best answer ahead of time so as to not make any mistakes. It encourages overthinking and obsessing by its very presence, and by the availability of people across the globe on at almost any hour of the night or day to chime in and keep it going. I love it and I get sucked in and let it overwhelm me both.
I discussed the trip with my other sister too, and she immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was a step toward reconciling, trying to stay together in one room.
He put me down so thoroughly and unambiguously, and still I get confused by something that could so easily be explained as nothing at all in the realm of reconciling, and not just me but others.
I'm going to be as civil and respectful and nice as I've been to him and we'll have lots of fun on our family trip, but we're separated and we're going to be unambiguous about it. For my own sanity and peace of mind. I'm driving separately and staying with friends and let the chips fall. I will have a good time and get my FIRST much-needed nights off from being the parent on duty (other than my work trip) in a very very long time.
I might even sightsee on the way down. I loooooooove road trips.
Awesome! I agree with your brother that he's just oblivious. You walking into the room with even the faintest expectation that he wants to reconcile would make everything harder. No expectations!
Sorry, but I don't believe his invite is in any way a step toward reconciliation. I think he is simply ahead of you in the game. It's possible he did all of his "chewing" on the state of the sitch during the years prior to the bomb. Since then, he's been healing, looking to his future "after the D," as I believe you put it. I would guess he just doesn't want to be enemies. It takes too much energy and effort, plus even a social idiot can see that's not good for the kids. It's likely he put very little thought into the invite, whereas you're racking your brains over how to respond. You're at the end of his whip and he probably doesn't even know he's cracking it, or least probably isn't doing it on purpose. (This is coming from years of experience with my H's exW, and her being completely unmoved/unaware of the chaos she sowed in our life.)
I think the time off of parenting is reason alone to stay elsewhere. I commend you for doing this with the kids. Focus on you, focus on them, don't worry about exH's response.
Yes, Crazyville, exactly. That is what I believe based on all evidence to date.
It doesn't really matter so much what his motivations were, to decide what I should do. I can't get into his head. The idea of spending 48 hours with him, driving and sleeping and eating and pretending everything is fine with us...doesn't feel OK with me.
I'm still grieving even though I've accepted the decision. It is sad to watch a marriage die even if it's inevitable and ultimately the right thing to do. I'm not at the point where I can share a bedroom with H because it's painful to me.
I think facilitating this trip, and participating in it, in spite of where we are in all of this, is pretty good. I don't know too many people outside of DB who could have a nice family trip together in the middle of their own divorce. I think I'm doing pretty well rolling with things, even if working through the emotions takes a lot of typing.
Some people gently chastise me for working through the emotions in typing like this, over a period of time, until I get clarity and settle into how I feel. Do you really think that is a bad thing? Do you think it's more evolved, or more emotionally mature, to arrive at things quicker with fewer words, sharing less of the in the middle stuff? I'm curious, because I feel like it's being suggested that I shouldn't do this, while I think it's healthy to do it.
Do what works for you Ad. If this process moves you ahead then it works. Only you really know if its useful or indulgent. Could it be both? Of course it could. Can it shift back & forth because you're human? yep.
We never please everyone. And I would guess that if that suggestion is heard, it is meant to help and see if maybe you are overthinking things. Be aware of it and decide for yourself.
I think you're making a great choice on the solo trip and meeting up. But that's coming from a fellow lover of road trips!
Well I was over in WaitingForMagic's thread explaining the concept of expressing your reality in moderation, one of the elements of the boundaries stuff I learned, and I realized I should listen to myself. It clicked what Accuray was saying the other day about how I am too forceful when I disagree, which I disagreed with, ha.
I don't know if I am or am not, but the point is to learn to express yourself moderately in relationships with others. And I can at least think about that more and see how much of it fits.
Some people gently chastise me for working through the emotions in typing like this, over a period of time, until I get clarity and settle into how I feel. Do you really think that is a bad thing? Do you think it's more evolved, or more emotionally mature, to arrive at things quicker with fewer words, sharing less of the in the middle stuff? I'm curious, because I feel like it's being suggested that I shouldn't do this, while I think it's healthy to do it.
LMFAO!!! Have you seen my posts? Certainly not the quickest way to POM and sanity lolol!!
You go.... type until it makes sense
Luv ya
Ad,
For me, it isn't as much about sharing or not sharing the middle stuff.
It is about how the middle stuff effects you. You, more than once, have talked about actually feeling ill thinking about it all.
There is a phrase...
let go, let God.
Sometimes, it is better, healthier, for us to actually do that.
To place some faith in the idea that things will work out just as they should. Without all of the middle stuff making us crazy.
Have you ever worried and worried about something, and in the end it was fine and then you ask yourself, what was I so worried about?
I went through that a lot. Until I just started trying to just go with things. Im not always successful, but it is something I work towards.
Nice to start the day with a LMFAO!!! and a smiley too!
I was reading over in Luke's and bug's threads and my thought of the day today is that I'm so wrapped up in how H affects ME, with all his yelling and criticizing and texting of complaints, and I've been trying since March 8 to get him to spend a few minutes with me talking face to face about coparenting so we can keep the dialog going even though we were just really stressed and in disagreement the last time. I was so upset and scared because he seems to disrespect my parenting and thinks the solution is to send my son away to boarding school. He makes fun of me wanting to talk and reason, by saying I just want to be his best friend. We ended up just arguing, and much later SOME of his viewpoint made more sense to me and I've been trying to incorporate a broader range of techniques. I've been wanting to have a followup discussion and I've been racking up items to discuss because H cancelled and never rescheduled despite two requests from me. Items I've racked up include: S snuck out of the house during a grounding, S has now been to a drug counselor and how that went, and some of the new consequences that weren't on the table before. S snuck out practically a month ago and it's turning into just stuff I've dealt with and is history, while the weekend he did it, when I asked H to talk with me, it was a critical recent escalation in our challenges. Anyway, too much backstory.
The point is, there probably is a very strong negative response H is experiencing when we have an emotionally charged interaction, like what Acc calls a shame response, that H would want to shut down from, run from, or avoid at all costs. I can see it happening, it just was mystifying to me. He's a very assertive seeming, strongly opinionated person, very masculine, loud and confident, and he's known me since we were kids out of college. So acting, I don't know, intimidated by me, has never computed.
But it explains how he got from my message in Florida, "thank you so much for taking care of the kids, but could you not yell so much we're trying to have a respectful home": stop over-reacting and don't do anything about the drugs you're finding in the house this week. That is what he told me I told him. And I was so surprised he didn't respond with questions to clarify such a weird message coming from me. I thought he knew me better than that. I was getting this feeling from him that I had morphed into someone he didn't know who made no sense but mustn't be aggravated, just back away slowly..... Did not compute.
And then he practically assaulted me with text messages of bongs and stuff while I was grocery shopping, but when I came home and sat across the table and heard him telling me no-privileges, take away everything, no friends no phone nothing but school and home and if that doesn't work boarding school, and I was trying to tell him we needed to try to work together and combine our different strengths in getting through, and it was tense. He does NOT like conversations where there are two sides that go back and forth. He likes to say what is going to happen and it just happens, no discussion. If he has said something, he's done and fails to see the point why I'm still talking (my perception). I was trying to get to a meeting of the minds. I left it with wanting to make this an ongoing conversation so we could hear each other and try to get on the same page for coparenting. But he cancelled our appointment and is still avoiding it. Oh yeah, I also asked if we could talk about it with a referee like IC so we could be more effective at hearing each other and he told me to go by myself and report back to him what she said, which he predicted would be that I'm wrong and he's right. Argh. Back to the point. I think the point is that as uncomfortable and frustrating this is for me, and as much as I want to avoid it... H might have hated it even more. I was so much more interested in how hard it was for ME.
I'm not sure what the takeaway is. I think it has to do with recognizing how and when to moderate myself.
Boundaries (per Pia Mellody) are for protecting your reality - how most of the people I see here need to learn to use them, but they are also for CONTAINING your reality, and for me that was equally if not more necessary to learn. I like to express myself and I express myself strongly and colorfully by habit, training, and personality. I love words and I love struggling to convey a message in just the way that someone will hear it. But I tend to have trouble moderating it sometimes, recognizing where my reality ends and where I'm imposing on someone else's, recognizing where just turning up the volume isn't the right response to someone not hearing me.
I want so much to be heard, understood, known. Really known by someone. But with H I think in spite of how I thought he was, I know think I need to dial it way back. He creates such a void and I find it nearly impossible not to fill it up with my own thoughts and beliefs.
That was a big thought for the day. BTW I'm strongly considering going to EE. I've been thinking of recommending it for my niece who's in trouble, but I would like to see what I might be capable of with a solid weekend of opening my mind. There are some things I don't discuss here much that I could really improve.
Hi adinva,
The EE coordinator is very helpful and good to get in touch with. She set me up to talk with an EE grad, who was having R problems during his EE course, and who sold me on the concept. It seems to me that this is a very good way to get unstuck.
Luke
I want so much to be heard, understood, known. Really known by someone.
But can you let someone see the vulnerable part of you in order to really be heard.
From my life: I projected a persona of a wise-cracking, sarcastic, do almost anything for a laugh, tough cookie because I felt that if anyone got to the soft-center of me I would be lost. I had to protect that at all costs because others might not respect that, honor that, they might make fun of it, I would feel ashamed by the "real" me.
So I created a hard shell around that soft-center and protected it with every fiber of my being.
I couldn't let people really know be because I was afraid.
I've been chipping away at that shell for 3 years now and it's almost gone.
How many people do you let in, really let in?
Labug and adinva,
Some EE flavor, from a Skype chat and some texting, fwiw:
The EE grad I spoke with wrote this:
"I think that if you can walk in with what I call the three opens (can't do the body language with typing) you'll get a great deal out of it:
1) Open mind (touches head)
2) Open heart (touches heart)
3) Open arms (for hugging). (opens arms)
"
That is, it sounds like you must be willing to be vulnerable, open. Perhaps being an out of towner (EE is in Philadelphia, and I am coming from Sweden) is an advantage in this open context.
...
I wrote this:
"If asked how confident I am about myself and socially, maybe a 2 of 5 (1 is worst). If asked about knowing what I want from life and if I have a plan, also 2 of 5. It seems I am not in control of it much, not a good feeling.
I'd really like to hear what others want from life, what plans they have, what is important to them, and how they plan to achieve these."
My EE contact wasn't fazed by this openness (and we'd only been talking for maybe 10 minutes) - how great and real to be able to be open and share - and I really liked the guy -
Good stuff, I think, if you are wound that way,
Luke
Luke... the very opposite for me. I truly let h in... and now am lost and destroyed because of it... I will now start to build my wall, and never be that vulnerable again.
more to add... I am very upset about that because I am a loving generous person and was so glad to be able to be me, in my r. I now feel taken advantage of and sooo sooo hurt by this. I wonder how this will all play out. I don't want to be a cynical hard person afraid to love again.
wfm - it sounds like your boundaries and self were overrun - but isn't there still a core - a real, inviolable, you, left, somewhere? I think that boundary setting with another person, which doesn't mean that you don't really communicate with them (sorry for the negative logic), can be gained in EE - constructive criticism, mutual help - revealing oneself, sharing, can happen. Perhaps not being in a marital R with the EE folks helps?
Luke
good luck Luke... keep me posted on your progress. When is your EE trip?
Hi wfm,
I'll get out of adinva's thread now - EE is this May. I consider it win-win - it may possibly help me in my marital difficulties, but even if we D, then it looks to be able to help me with getting through that.
Sorry for the intrusion, adinva -
Luke
No problem! WFM, you didn't let someone in, you gave yourself up to someone. A healthy relationship where you are a whole half of it is going to be much different. I hope you'll learn how to do that instead of building a wall.
Hi Ad, so happy for the decision you have made and how you came to it. As Inside said, type away!
Ride the Griffon for me and have a fantastic time!
I often see similarities between the female LBS on this board...we tend to be "strong", sarcastic, controlling presences in life. As mentioned here by WFM, I too, tended to keep back. Hold a place to myself where I couldn't be hurt. The gift is we get to look really hard at ourselves and say "Do I want to live the rest of my life this way?"
Many have decided that no, they don't, and are finding new paths new ways of being. Discovering who they were and who they can be.
IN this, AD, your journey has been remarkable, if you ever care to go back to beginning of your posts and see the growth happen. Kudos
I left the kids this morning to be picked up by their dad, and I'm working in front of a picture window in my home-away-from-home.
I was feeling really stressed out about things in general, had a frustrating day at work, worried about whether this trip was going to be painful or awkward for me, revved up because of the chores that needed doing before we left, and the usual feeling of being pulled in different directions with kids home for spring break while workload isn't taking a break. So I got a manicure/pedicure and tried to convince myself that whether I felt stressed out or not, exactly the same plot was going to play out. It was my choice to make myself crazy over it or not. That helped a little.
I also noticed that after I called H and told him I was driving separately and not sleeping at the hotel, I felt pretty good about it. It didn't turn out to be difficult to say, and it felt good to be taking care of myself by owning my needs.
On the drive down I listened to Pia Mellody's boundaries CDs again.
and where is the like button????
Good for you, Ad. I'm learning to stop doing so much. It really helps me.
Have fun Ad.
Awesome! I'm reading her "facing co-dependency" book. You sound good!
Not worrying about the future is nice, but so hard!
ROOOOAAAD TRIIIIIIIP!!!!! (If you imagine it in the voice of John Belushi, its sounds so much better....)
Hope you have a great time!
^^^^
^^^^^
Home again, and tired, and headed to my regular IC appt. Had a good time on our trip.
Glad you had a good trip, bet the IC appointment was perfect timing!!
In ICU today we hit on a few points I wanted to journal. i was mostly coming at this trip from a feeling of discombobulation because I wasn't sure if he wanted me to be there I wasn't sure if I wanted to be there or if I should be there or if the kids needed me to be there and then the same for all the variables about what being there would look like. I didn't really think too much about how the kids would do being there because I felt it was necessary for them to spend some of spring break with their dad. I must say that the decision to not stay in the room with them was validated a few times - first was by the fact that the bathroom door wouldn't shut because they put in a pull-up bar in the doorway. I had to go to the bathroom pretty bad by the time i figured out how to get it off the doorway. the problem seem to be solved then but I didn't feel that welcome or comfortable. second was H did decide to take a shower after the day in the park while we were watching movies in the room and did dress in front of me and did hang around in his boxer shorts the rest of the time and it was uncomfortable for me and I was very glad to have my own space to go to.
There were things that I did not like very much about being with H that were illustrated on our trip and I discussed these with my counselor. Though I had decided to be very tolerant of differences in our ways of interacting with the kids so that our vacation would be nice and I wouldn't create conflict and we could just get along.
One was with S 12 when I first got there they had just gotten off the brand-new ride which has a surprise feature that s12 immediately wanted to tell me about and H reacted angrily with a look and a warning to get him to stop before he said something and then an attack after he did say it for having ruined the surprise. I saw that S looked a little glum about being scolded about that and it really doesn't bother me being told about the ride before riding it. My son knows me well enough to know I really don't care about things like that. i just gave him a hug and a smile and we got on the ride and we didn't say anything to H to challenge him. What occurred to me later is that through our whole relationship there was a pattern where H would want to control what I said and many times I got a look or an interruption or a kick under a table that caused a shame attack in me for somehow having said the wrong thing and I saw him doing it to my son. The Takeaway is to work with my son to build up his confidence so he learns to have faith in his judgment to say what he wants to say or else to be comfortable saying something that his dad would like to make him not say. It should even be okay to say the wrong thing and regret and learn from that.
That was little but it was just a reminder of the feeling of being disrespected or being not quite good enough that was just constant in our house until H moved out and I personally kind of like it better now.
The other was this goofing-around crotch grab that H does when the kids won't get out of bed when he tells them to. h calls that a "cup of coffee" as in "Oh yeah? You don't want to get out of bed? Well how about a cuppa coffee you want a cuppa coffee?" and he did it to s15 when it was time to get out of bed to go to the parks. that physical grabbing and joking really bothers me we have been round and round about it for years. I feel is inappropriate and disrespectful and H thinks I'm being overly sensitive and going to make pansies out of them. He doesn't see it my way that anybody else who did that to our kids would look like a molester and I've never been so strong in how I worded my objections to him. This time he upped the ante by adding a joke of that if s15 was smiling that meant he liked it and it would continue which really bothered me. when I was a kid I was molested in a tickling way and I never told anyone bc i was so embarassed, or got any help in dealing with it. i became completely enraged anytime anyone tried to tickle me after that and had to warn people I might accidentally break their nose if they tried. the feeling of being powerless to stop someone who is doing something bad is very great in me and what h was doing really brought those feelings back and so I decided to leave the room and wait for them downstairs and today discussing it in counseling I was completely ashamed of myself for choosing that instead of stopping h. However I have always been conflicted with h because I know what happened to me is not the same as what is happening to my son and my feelings about it are probably different than S15's and knowing that the situation is different I question the validity of my feelings and feel like I need to ignore them That's how we got 15 years down the road with this issue and that's how I felt it was okay to leave the room and wait for them downstairs. It was just H acting exactly like he's always acted and not doing anything at all out of the ordinary for him but I was hoping that us being separated and him not having seen his kids in months he would be on better behavior it's clear that his behavior is going to be exactly what it is . My counselors recommendation was to focus more on the kids side of things to encourage them and and empower them to speak up for themselves and so I did ask my son today if he had fun on the trip regardless of the sheer torture of a family trip when youre a teenager and he said yes so I asked him if he felt like dad Was being pretty respectful on the trip and he gave me a grunt in the affirmative so I said well I think it's time for the cuppa coffee idea to go and son snickered and I said no really I think it's kind of inappropriate and immature and you can tell dad to knock it off to which s15 said I don't care so I said well I just think it it's okay to ask for more respectful and mature behavior from dad.
He's got to learn no means no with his peers, and how is he going to learn that when no doesn't mean no to his own dad? He's got to learn that his body is his to control who's going to touch him and where and how can we be sure he knows that if he can't say that to dad? And I will hate to see him treat his own kids that way when he's a dad and know that it was because I let it happen when he was a kid.
So overall yes it was a good time and it was good for the kids to hang out with their dad but it did raise issues for me that have been the exact same issues for two years now since the bomb and part of our relationship problems leading up to the bomb. It just seems hopeless to have such a long list of things id like to correct h for and hold back to choose my battles, or try to see from his perspective, or try not to be controlling. Nakes me feel hopeless that im capable of having a positive relationship with him at all.
You're not overreacting, grabbing a 15 year old boy in the crotch is inappropriate in any context. Why your H feels that's funny or playful is disturbing. Have you ever told H that it bothers you and why it does? Have you told him about the molestation you endured and how it's given you a hair trigger in that regard? Be explicit about how you feel and don't fear that it's wrong or inappropriate. Your job is to let him know, his job is to respect it. If you do your job and he doesn't do his that does not reflect poorly on you at all.
Yes I mentioned it to him various times over the years and this area of disagreement was a source of friction between us.
To bring it to a more general level, we disagreed that "playful" bad treatment at home is a way to toughen up a kid to hold his own among his peers. Horseplay, crotch grabbing, peeing on people in the shower, goodnatured namecalling like dummy and dumb@ss, sarcastic joking, many examples of things I was too lame and hypersensitive to understand about the ways of men. My H has charm, humor and charisma, and his wild and crazy antics are appealing. The "normal" bar can get ratcheted up over years and you don't even realize how not ok it is because you've been living in the middle of it. Our friend who's a psychologist got in on the conversation a few times when we had dinner get-togethers, and she confirmed that abusing or bullying your child is no way to inoculate him against abuse or bullying. H just disagreed with her too. What do you do when it's your husband, the father of your kids, and he's 99% fine and in some areas even better at parenting than you? It all starts to look like grey area.
Also, though, and here's my reason for feeling my future is different, during my marriage I thought speaking up was communicating. I thought saying hey knock it off, or I really don't like that, or expressing anger, or saying I wanted a rule against something, was communicating. So I would communicate this over and over like bouncing a ball off a wall. I think I have learned better to try something different, to work harder at communication that goes two ways rather than lobbing my ideas over to him, to ask for agreement or ask for feedback. To not accept an ok-FINE.
I don't know for sure if I ever told H what happened to me - I really held it as a secret my whole life. Another one of our repeated disagreements over the years was his love of grabbing me roughly or tickling me and telling me you gotta take the good with the bad when I would object to that. I know that I told him as strongly as possible that he really needed to stop doing that, but he is who he is. If I told him exactly why I react that way, and maybe I did, I don't recall - it was very embarassing to me (that probably seems funny but it's like lizard-brain thinking). I definitely tried (and failed) to get him to connect the dots that doing those things virtually guaranteed I wouldn't be in the mood for what he was seeking. This disagreement did come up in our marriage counseling session, maybe our first one.
I wasn't sure if I had ever been so clear as to explain that being molested as a kid created that violently fearful response, but I did say so in this counseling session and the message I got from IC was that I needed to learn that H is not the person who molested me. I needed to learn to be OK with physical treatment that was similar to what happened to me but was innocent and meant affectionately. I said why can't I just not want to be tickled and people just don't tickle me?
But that was when we were just working on getting h to talk about what was wrong with our marriage in his view, and validating that. It wasn't the time to get things I needed, that is for the future.
Chemo started last Thursday, and mom seems really good. Cheerful and sweet. She has new shoes she just loves. She thinks my dad is handsome even though he's finally starting to lose some of his hair. Her knee hurts. She tells strangers she's going to lose her hair. She's excited a wig is on order that looks just like her hair. My dad is terrified of being hospitalized because he needs to be able to take care of her; I told him not to worry because my sister and I could step in if that happens, but that's small comfort and I know it. I bring them flowers from my garden and my dogs to pat. My mom loves my dogs, she gives them constant attention. My dad feeds them under the table. Grand-dogs are like grand-children that way.
I spent most of Easter in the ER with them. They'll be OK. Watched tennis and read magazines with my mom while we waited for my dad to find out that on x-ray his back looks like it should hurt, nothing out of the ordinary. Situation normal, all f'd up.
I am surviving the last day of spring break. Chased a teenager with a carton of beer out of my house Saturday night. There haven't been any candles, open windows, funky smells, in the basement but they still try to get alcohol. Interrupted a bro-shower and explained to them that it's no longer allowed and why. The blank stares I get are surreal; I don't know how I would have reacted to a friends' mom lecturing me about drugs but I guess a blank stare is a pretty standard part of the teenage armamentarium.
I love Easter, it's a bittersweet holiday that was my Grandma's favorite. I love it more than Christmas. The hymns are ringing in my head even though I didn't make it to church. Decided the blue bunny peeps taste better than the yellow chick peeps. I got a huge amount of spring cleanup done in my garden, and this time I'm doing first the parts that I see the most. The dogs appreciate having fresh mulch to race through; I think it must feel good between their toes.
My self help book this week is The Comedy Bible: From Standup to Sitcom - The Comedy Writer's Ultimate "How To" Guide. I'm having an absolute blast reading the funny parts to my S12 and watching his deadpan "that's not funny mom." I got him to smile almost, one time, but he denied it. Another one would surely have been funny if I didn't have to stop and explain to him what freebasing means. Who knew, with a WAH, rebellious teens, cancer/alzheimer's, money trouble, job trouble, weight issues, and depression, I'm sitting on a comedy goldmine. Wow, everything looks different now!
Ad,
You sound much better. I am glad things are slowly starting to move forward and find their place.
Hang in there - spring is here.
I was just catching up on your sitch and upon reading about your H grabbing your sons crotch and then the notion of peeing on people in the shower I could not read another word. I am absolutely mortified by this. How long has this behavior been going on? Did he do this to them as children?
While your sons might shrug it off for the moment you can be certain that this form of inappropriate touching and behavior by THEIR FATHER who is supposed to teach them to guard and respect their bodies will have deep and lasting impacts. At the very least they are learning that this form of touching by people who weild power over them is ok.
As their mother please make it stop. Would you tolerate them touching their children, your grandchildren, this way in the future? What would be the result if your H were to try this with someone else's child? Or if your sons were to try it with their peers? Or with kids younger than them? Or is this "a secret", something that stays in the family?
Abuse is about power. The crotch grabbing, peeing on others, name calling, is all about power. It is abusive. It is not light hearted goofing around. And did I see "bro-shower"? Do your teenage sons shower together? I'm hoping its a euphemism for something else as boys entering sexual maturation really shouldn't be showering together.
And your IC telling you that you need to learn to be ok with physical aggression that triggers bad memories for you??? GET ANOTHER IC!!! That person is not validating your experiences and is saying your boundaries dont matter. Clearly s/he is not experienced with the fallout of abuse and victimization. Anybody who is would tell you in no uncertain terms that your H is treating you and your children inappropriately.
Ad, you are so strong and you've been through so much. But this abuse, it's horrible. Please see it for what it is. The thing with bullies and abusers is they are really averse to change.
AD, I know you wrote about your H's, questionable behaviour in this forum because it is safe. I will not judge your H but what he could very well feel is benign behaviour.
The biggest question to ask him... or your son's... is if he would be willing to tell people about this type of horse play in a public forum.
If he would be ashamed or unwilling to do so, then he understands that it is unlikely socially acceptable.
Thanks guys, it is a relief to have a safe forum to discuss this stuff in. The timeline is, stuff like this has been a normal part of our existence, not every day, but often, since the kids were pretty small, like schoolage. Before they were schoolage we had these very same disagreements about spanking and yelling. The boys started wrestling in first grade and there's a lot of roughhousing like that which seems to have started around that point too, not when they were little babies. Wrestlers cannot be squeamish about their crotches and personal space; an opponent would take advantage. Any of you guys wrestle? My H did from early childhood through college, and it earned him an Ivy League education and was a large part of his identity as a man and as a dad, until the kids moved on to other sports and interests.
The things I took issue with I said something and we would have disagreements, and the disagreements turned to friction, resentment, a feeling like the other wasn't listening, a feeling like our opinion didn't matter, and so on and so on until we get here. My H completely withdrew from me and then left me. And one of, say, the top three problems in our relationship was this stuff. I didn't respect his ideas and he didn't respect mine, and we didn't agree about the kids. I might have mentioned before, that even being left, I felt some relief because this problem that I felt he was somewhat abusive was going to go away since we couldn't work it out.
You may not be regular readers of mine, but my sensitivities over how he speaks to our S12 have also been called abusive and been highly offensive to some readers on this board.
What do you do when things seem sometimes bad but not always bad, when you have some disagreements but not only? At what point do you decide what you're looking at is clearly abusive and you need to pack up the kids and leave, get a divorce when all your life you've believed marriage is forever and communication enables smart people to work out their differences? Well, I have had that decision made for me.
Honestly, when we talked about our differences in marriage counseling, the four or so times H showed up, the issues were not about him being abusive they were about ME being abusive. Not listening, not being respectful, acting lazy and forgetful, being passive aggressive. I've read here how emasculating it is to be denied sex by your wife, and I've been at fault of that because I could not stand the way he approached me - if I could throw up at will there are some times I would have done so, and it was just harmless fun, I was soooooo overreacting it seems. I was a bad wife, it seems. I took our marriage for granted, didn't speak his love language, didn't try hard enough. So in all that, there are these little pieces of the puzzle that when examined up close look like he was verbally and possibly physically abusive or at the very least inappropriate.
I can't redo the past, and it's all being changed in the present by the divorce, so all that I can do is work on this stuff going forward, with my IC's counsel, to build up my boys and try to undo what's been done.
A thought that occurs to me is that my H was probably treated by his dad or others exactly the way he's treating the boys, so he thinks it is completely normal and that it's me that is overreacting. And my family was so restrictive that we weren't allowed to burp or fart or actually even use those words, so there's a lot that I've just figured must have been normal for other types of families.
Oh yeah, "bro" showers aren't done with your actual brother, that would be "weird." Bro showers are the buddies, who are all joking like puppies cool and confident guys from the lacrosse, baseball, and hockey teams, who will pile 2 3 or 4 into a shower in their gym shorts and spend a ridiculous amount of time in there. If challenged they would say "what!? we're not doing anything. We're just taking showers. We're not gay or anything." Based on available evidence these particular bro showers are for smoking pot, and I've told all of S15 best friends' moms that I'm not allowing this or other suspicious behavior at my house. (cologne fights, baths with scented candles, etc.) Oh, the joys of parenting a teenager, you learn new things every day.
Thanks for clarification on bro-showers. I've never heard of such a thing. If my comments were out of bounds or came across as over-reacting, I'm sorry. Abuse and its varying degrees is a very touchy subject for me as it's at the heart of my marital breakdown. My heart breaks for the men who grow up having experienced things that didn't feel right only to be told boys can't be abused, or that abuse takes one form and one form only. What you say about your H doing what was done to him rings bright, but your instinct around it does not make you a prude and I don't believe it is a result of how you were raised. I didn't grow up in a strict household but am with you on this one. I fart and burp and swear and have tattoos. Sounds worse than it is! :-)
Your situation breaks my heart Ad. I've followed along since I joined and have wished you strength along the way. My husband was always kind (although he hid his past from me) until he stepped out, and I feel so much injustice for people like yourself who have had a different experience. I couldn't even abide his infidelity for one second, but we have no kids and I have a good job so the stakes are different.
Much strength Ad.
Thanks GWN. It is a struggle for me because I don't want to look at ugly things about me. I've never been a mama-bear kind of mom, and I don't always see threats for what they are, and when I think I do I back down with just a little justification or rationalization. I don't know where the correct level of response is. It's part of what I'm learning in this whole process, it's a feeling, and feelings are something I've buried, hidden, misrepresented, exaggerated or denied my whole life. It's a slippery thing to grasp a feeling, identify it and measure it and know what response is called for, how big or how small.
The idea that I allowed something bad to happen to my kids, or that I didn't see their dad as doing harm, is pretty hard to face, and all I want to say is, can you understand why? Maybe it's not that big of a deal? Maybe I responded right all along but not with enough conviction? Maybe I'm fixing things now? I don't like to be too hard on myself. But this was a very hard conversation for me in IC and I felt miserable to think I was so weak. I still kind of keeping coming back to, maybe we're all just overreacting.
So I asked my sister and she said it always bothered her too and she polled her male friends and found none of them who thought this was normal guy behavior. My sister has always been a LOT more delicate and sensitive than me or most anyone, so it's natural that she would be concerned, but I had no idea she was finding other guys' support that this was inappropriate way back. I don't know how much I would have listened to her, and I know I was already saying about as much as I could say to H, making a nag out of myself, so it probably doesn't make a difference now. I just didn't know she did that.
My H taught me to let a fart rip. Better out than in. He said my stomach would explode if I didn't. I couldn't believe people could be so comfortable with their bodies as him.
AD, the things you speak about... horse play... initiations... hazing... what ever one calls it, is very common in athletic sports such as football, hockey, curling... wait... no, not curling... lol...
Because it's always been done, or done within specific groups, whatever... the group generally determines what is "right" and what is "wrong" as far as display and activities such as those.
That you don't like it is the important part. Does that make you a prude? Should you condone it? Or turn a blind eye? Those are tough choices.
Frat houses get shut down and sports teams investigated over these types of allegations made public.
My best guess is not that you think there is anything that is dangerous or harmful to your sons. Rather, it makes you uncomfortable.
I agree that type of stuff is just... bizarre and childish... In some instances, it could be a swat on the rump by team mates of a football team... or towel (or other method of) snaps to the groins... or it could be communal showering...
Is it intended to be a power play? An alpha, dominance thing? Abusing, humiliating, shaming them into submission?
Of course, them understanding that they do not have to accept nor participate in that type of behaviour is important. They may not say it openly in front of their friends or their dad, but they might say it to you, in private, and they should know they do not have to participate in that behaviour.
I completely understand why you let it go -- I don't think anyone holds that against you, as you point out its hard to have a gauge for normal or acceptable for borderline behavior you're not familiar with. Here on this big forum it seems unanimous that H's behavior is abusive, not normal, and not acceptable, and that your IC was wrong to tell you to tolerate being held down. We are reinforcing your beliefs here, not chastising you for prior shortcomings. I do think you should continue to defend the boys in this regard by setting boundaries with H and teaching the boys to do the same. This forum has taught me a lot that my wife's behavior that I regarded as normal was in fact not the norm at all. Sometimes we're blinded by having such a small sample set.
Ad, I'm glad you can now let one rip!
I do understand where you're coming from, as much as a person without kids can of course, and one who hasn't walked your road.
You know what struck me about your last post (or second last...not the fart one ;-))? That you said it's hard to look at yourself, that you've had trouble with feelings your whole life, that you've buried, hidden, denied them. My H said the same things to me, but specifically connected to what he'd been through. It changes people deep in their core. Trust in one's self, one's judgement falters. Feelings become too much to bear so we don't. I don't know that your difficulties with feelings and questioning of your judgement are rooted in your trauma, but it might be worth exploring. I see so much in what you write that your power as been taken away and that makes me sad.
An in terms of whether or not your H intends to dominate, abuse, humiliate, shame...it's not that simple. He might not mean to, he might approach it as just horsing around, but that might also very well not be the effect on the recipient of his behavior.
Oh, and the notion that denying sex to a husband is emasculating (from your first post on this page)? Wives don't "owe" their husbands sex. Rather, it's one of the benefits of an intimate relationship. It certainly can be coerced or purchased, but that's not what we're talking about. And there are two people in a relationship, not just the husband. I don't know what you mean specifically about your H's approach and your not liking it, but you're a human being too and he could have talked about and responded to your needs and desires.
You're a good person, Ad, and don't ever forget that.
One other thought -- this forum espouses working to save your marriage except in cases of abuse. If you're married to an abuser, appealed to make it stop and were disregarded, then sometimes it's better for you and the kids to be away from an abuser until they decide to get their act together. Maybe you think this is harsh because I'm sure there was lots of good about your H and there was a lot to love, but if a top 3 cause of your marital problems were you speaking out against abuse, then no harm no foul on your part right?
Well, I'm still not convinced. I really think if I stood up in public and called my H abusive he would be outraged and appalled. How many of us were belittled by our Hs or Ws and how many of us would call that abusive and tell you to get out? When do you know that you've worked hard enough at fixing things and you need to get out?
Also, I haven't felt powerless in a really long time, not since my teenage rebellion. I buried my feelings because they hurt me, and I was empowered. I didn't have to care and I could choose my route. I had pretty good relationships and I ended them for pretty good reasons and H seemed like a great husband for a long time and a pretty good husband all the rest of the time right up until BD. When the neighborhood ladies had their b!tch sessions about their husbands I couldn't participate...I thought my H was pretty good, better than me at splinters and bandaids, did all the laundry, handy and smart. Nothing is as black and white as it sometimes seems.
And I've got to say he never held me down, not even close. He just thought it was funny to tickle me to see me overreact. I won't describe some of his other undesirable mating rituals because I feel like I've maligned him enough for one day, but think goofy frat boy not rapist and you'll be more on target.
I believe there are families that stay together where the children are actually beaten. I got my share of a belt and my parents were married 60 years and counting. Some fathers call their kids stupid don't think they're joking. The point where people cut and run seems to me to call for broken bones and malicious intent. The rest of us work through our damage.
I'm sure if my H didn't bail on me I would have continued fighting him on the things I objected to, and I might have learned better techniques if I had ever gotten around to seeking counseling, and we might have made it through ok. I think my parents did a lot better with each other once they got all their kids up and out. I don't agree that divorce is the best choice in my sitch but staying without changing would have been a worse choice.
I just sat with him through another freezing lax game. He insisted on getting a blanket for us to sit on, and the rest of the time he said basically nothing. No thanks, to my offer to get him a hot drink. Fine, to my question of how his roomie is. His mom's interested in coming to the game Thursday and she'll stay overnight, so I asked him if he wanted to invite her to stay with him - he said no she can stay at the house. He did mention his roomie's son is visiting for spring break and they went to NYC. I asked if he was a sophomore or junior and was he looking at colleges yet, but H didn't know. That's about it.
I try not to push my information on him, because I think it's pursuing, so I wait for him to ask or express an interest which he doesn't. So I didn't mention the party or the beer or the ER or Easter or the chemo or the business trips I have coming up or anything else that I was thinking of saying to him. We just sat and watched the game.
Don't be sad for me, I'm no victim. I really wasn't that traumatized and I believed I handled it pretty effectively without having to tell anyone. Now that I know I didn't handle it all that effectively it's on my to-do list. I was able to grow up emotionally, mostly from having had kids, and I believe I've demonstrated quite a lot of strength and resilience. I was not molested more than once and not nearly to the degree that some people, or if you believe the statistics MOST people are. I was just a little kid so I didn't understand it, and my little-kid ideas about it never grew up, but I felt like I accommodated my handicap really well.
I do think someone who hasn't healed from something should be allowed to say NO, no I don't like the color pink, no I don't like being tickled, no I won't get in red cars. Whatever. They have a right. No one should tell them they need to get over it until they want to get over it. I took what my IC said with a grain of salt. I think it was my choice when to decide to get over my hangup about being tickled, but I think it's correct that someone who's been hurt needs to learn that not everyone is going to hurt them, not everyone is that guy. I think IC was technically correct, but not until I was ready to heal. Until then, IC should have been telling H he was wrong and pretty insensitive, idiotic, rude, and deserved a smackdown for not listening to what I was trying to tell him and for not acting like he cared how I felt. But, like I said, we were trying to get H to open up, and we couldn't very well start marriage counseling by ganging up on the one who was LEAVING.
H is not a bad guy. But he is not a nice guy either. I still see all kinds of opportunity for us, but not if he won't ever be willing to look inside and fix whatever's broken in him. Boo.
GWN: Why I have trouble with feelings... It did not occur to me that one little event in my early childhood caused that. My sisters and I believe it's more our family dynamic, old New England stiff upper lip. Old-style parenting where children should be seen and not heard. A fair amount of codependence, where our behavior could MAKE our parents feel proud, sad, angry, ashamed, or happy. My sister used to feel she had to look pretty so Mom would be happy. I didn't feel that way. My other sister said she buried her feelings because she was pretty sure her feelings were irrelevant, no one was interested in her feelings. I felt like I was expected to get good grades, behave, whatever, because my parents insisted on it. It had nothing to do with me or what I wanted. So I became oppositional...I felt my power in denying my parents what they wanted, and I pushed the envelope. I felt power in getting average grades and acing tests and getting my picture for national merit but skipping class and forging passes. I felt power in going to a good college and partying, power in leaving the country, hitchhiking and sleeping in train stations and falling in love with boys and buying my own car and making my own way. I felt power in not asking for help from anyone and being independent of my parents (somewhat). They objected to my relationship with H, first because they guessed incorrectly at his religious background and then because they didn't like his ethnic/racial background and then because they thought he should "poop or get off the pot" isn't that nice? Maybe they said fish or cut bait. Anyway I fought them tooth and nail over my ability to make my own decisions and I felt power in that. And we showed them for a pretty long time. He was the favorite son in law, through attrition, for a while. I was happy with him, we had adorable kids, he provided a great life. I really cannot say that being molested impacted me nearly as much as being emotionally distant from my parents did.
I suppose that is what I've been trying to undo all along through my empathy for my boys. I think, even if I haven't been a perfect mom, I've been really really good at nurturing emotionally competent boys.
Wow. You really are amazing. Listen, my two cents:
Everyday we get conflicting opinions, especially those of us who DB, right? I mean, most of our friends don't understand why we wait, why we forgive and how we deal. But we do what we do because we have decided to walk our own paths. You will decide what to do and what to say and how to deal with all H's behaviours and interactions between you and sons. And you will do what is right for you and the babies. What you feel is right. You already are walking that path and you are more remarkable for taking the time to look at all sides of the insanely complex shape of this life.
I really admire your strength and clarity right now. I don't know if you realize how it shines through, even when you are working towards things, the path is pretty clear.
Ruby
Wow, thanks Ruby. I really do believe I do try to take the time to look at all the sides. There is so little that looks black and white to me anymore, it's all confusing.
I think it's kind of funny that the path I struggle so much to find and stay on is just simply laid out by my WAH. I didn't choose it and wasn't about to, and fight it like crazy, and find myself on it anyway.
I'm feeling these past couple of days though, like I'm packing up the broom and not so much interested in sweeping and keeping that road home paved.
I look at the course I've taken, and the advice that goes out to newbies, and I think I've really not done a very good job of DBing. I worked really hard at learning to stop reacting, stop being passive aggressive, contain my reality and express myself in moderation, understand different viewpoints and learn empathy for my H. I am still practically the exact same person at the stuff that really bothered him, saying I'm going to the gym and still being on the internet 2 hours later is still par for the course, I still get to the dog poop in the yard only about every two or three weeks and find excuses like it's winter or there's snow or I did it last week and I'm busy. I'm still not great at making the kids do chores. I'm not really that different. I wear makeup a lot more regularly, but I still don't like to dress up or fuss with my hair. I work out a lot more in my imagination than in reality. I'm just not a woman only a fool would leave, in my husband's book. I don't even really feel like being that, to him. I'm happier, I'm more real, I work harder at relationships I want to work harder at, I'm not willing to accept scraps of attention and affection, I'm pretty cool with having my house and kids and dogs and no H. I never even tried to withdraw from H and measure the results, or pursue a little and see how he'd respond, or try touch (ok once) or make lots of eye contact and look interested in him. I aced detaching and giving space and not pursuing and didn't find anything that would draw him closer. Now I just feel like eventually dotting the i's and closing the book on this marriage, but not in a hurry to do that either.
If watching my parents get old and sick has done anything it's taught me that it's wrong to wait for some perfect set-up in order to be happy. It's not going to happen, or some other hurdle will come along, or what you thought would doesn't create happiness. Why wait. If I wait until my mom's not being treated for cancer or my marriage is better or my kids behave or work is easy, I'll be waiting too long. I used to think I was happy if I just ignored the bad, but now that I'm muscling right through the bad stuff I find there's happiness just available in it, like the mica bits in a sidewalk, and you have to look carefully.
Ad, I remember quite a while ago bringing up your H's actions as abusive and I think your response was very similar then:
>I really think if I stood up in public and called my H abusive he would be outraged and appalled.<
Most abusers would do the same. I don't think an abuser is a good judge of their own actions.
I was abused as a child and it's a difficult thing to get over. I still can't understand why very nice people who saw what was happening didn't step in and say "Stop, this is way over the top."
A confounding fact of abuse is that 2 people can receive the same abusive treatment and be affected in very different ways. The problem is we can't preemptively pick those people who will be most damaged and get them out of harms way.
So we need to protect all those who can't protect themselves.
I know this is tough stuff, I wish you and your boys the best.
It might even be possible that H won't put words to it but doesn't feel right about how he is with me and the kids and has removed himself from the equation FOR us. It would be as good a guess as any if I hadn't been accusing him all this time of lacking empathy.
I don't know, Bug. If H is abusive then I shouldn't allow the kids to be with him, should I? But don't they need their dad? And if I've been there all along and am not quite sure what I've observed, how could a judge possibly decide? And I can't even imagine trying to get along with H after telling all this stuff to prevent him seeing his boys.
I'm really glad to have my IC to bring these worries to and get advice. She's been really encouraging that I can turn this around for my boys by being a different example, by giving them words and empowering them to express themselves.
I see lots of dads here getting squeezed out of their kids' lives at least partially, and saying they've been really awesome dads. I think my H would say he's been a really awesome dad.
My dad now is a really awesome dad. yeah they used corporal punishment and somehow didn't perceive what we really needed from them. But my dad taught me all about integrity, business, ethics, we share a lot of interests in spy novels coffee and potato chips, he's a really really good guy. Just had some faults as a parent of minor children, and not as many faults as some.
I cannot control my H. I cannot make him be a way that he is not, I can't make him believe he's abusive or harmful, and I can't make him change how he interacts with the kids. I can't fix their relationship. I can't tell him how to be a better dad. I can control how I will be treated by him, by speaking up and by enforcing my boundaries. I can teach my kids to do the same. But I can't see that how he is is so bad that I need to remove him from their lives. I have told him what I think is right and he just doesn't agree. I have asked for a referee and he doesn't think it's necessary and won't find the time. I did get him to go to an IC session with the kids, but he thought it was about getting them to be respectful of each other, didn't know it was about him.
I do often wish our marriage had fallen apart 10 years ago. Oh well. I have to go forward from here.
Who said remove him from their lives? He can make different choices but he doesn't have to as long as everyone turns a blind eye.
I need to not post here anymore because this is too charged for me still. I lose all objectivity.
OK sorry. Like I said, I have trouble figuring out where on the spectrum is appropriate. I haven't ever turned a blind eye, I've said, and repeated, and argued, and brought in counselors, and coached the kids, and the friction over this issue is one of the top reasons my marriage is ending. There's no blind eye, I don't think. He just doesn't agree. I really value your opinion.
I don't think I can/should keep the kids from their dad, or suggest that their dad is bad. We've been working this year on empowerment and basic respect, and the need sometimes to ask to be treated more respectfully or walk away. I think the kids need to be coached when and how to speak up for themselves, since they're just a few years away from being adults and deciding for themselves what their relationship with their dad is going to look like. At 22 my H decided never to see or speak to his dad again.
My blind eye comment was a cheap shot, I do lose my objectivity. I apologize.
I don't know, if he's grabbing his 15 year old in the crotch and squeezing, and calling his 12 year old "stupid" and "dumbass", I would say that's "bad"
I have no idea if he's squeezing, I just said grabbing. Often just the threat would be enough to get the boy to jump out of bed. I objected to the threats too.
What's different is I opened the conversations with the boys - S12 did actually try to leave the room and object to being spoken to disrespectfully and he called me and told on his dad, and I came home and we had a meeting about it and H apologized...that was before H moved out. It's a new skill we're all developing. With S15 I opened the conversation with him the other day to start getting him to think about whether to put a stop to the cup-of-coffee joke. I labeled it immature and inappropriate, those are things we can all agree about H's behavior sometimes.
It's easier to see, I think, when I focus on what's best for the kids. What's best for the kids is for them to develop the best relationship they can with their dad and learn how to set boundaries with him and feel that they have control over how they will be treated. What's my role in that? I think it's giving them tools, words, and self-respect; teaching them what they have a right to expect, and backing them up.
Labug I didn't think it was a cheap shot, it was a fair question. It's definitely debatable. There might be women who would have packed up their kids and left the home over the jokey name-calling, but you see Archie Bunker do it on TV. I tried to compensate for H's approach by being super respectful of the kids and super nurturing, and challenging him when I thought he was over the line. I read about lots of marriage dynamics like this in Dance of Anger, the more he was like X I was like Y, and I couldn't figure out how to bring us both closer to the center.