My W and I married in 2004. As in most honeymoon periods, life couldn't have been sweeter. We were very happy. We were intimate, we laughed, we went out with friends and made plans for children and building a house. Our son was born in 2005 and we built in 2008. I had it all, or so I thought. I took care of all the housework, the dishes, the cleaning, caring for our son, taking care of our dog, the laundry and even some cooking. I thought this was showing my love for her, after all I am a pleaser. But trouble soon followed. She began to withdraw. We would fight over the same thing, I didn't listen to her concerns. I would here them but would soon forget. Chasing cheese tunnels! When it came to raising our S I was the good buddy not the disciplinarian. Drove my W nuts. I snore due to smoking and when I would wake her up I would get kicked out of bed. After a while I just started sleeping with my S since he was sleeping on a queen sized bed. The dog began sleeping with us as well and it became routine.My W expressed her displeasure on occasion even crying about it but she never expressed how much it really bothered her. This routine lasted for almost 2 years. Then in the summer of 2011 my W began to withdraw even more. I noticed her not wearing her wedding ring during the week and she never left her cell phone alone. She had even put a password lock on it. In August of 2011 I caught her typing in her password and the next day when she was in the shower, I grabbed the phone and entered her password. I was shocked to notice an email account she had set up under a fake name. Worse yet, she was in contact with another man that had started 2 months ago. They met on an adultery website. They even tried hooking up. They weren't able to so I took that as a sign from above that I was given a second chance to make this marriage right. I confronted her about the OM and she said it was a joke that she was enjoying messing with these predators. I began working on things that bothered her. She even said that she noticed some changes but was afraid I would go back to the same old me. I began to get more suspicious as she began buying new tighter clothes and anti-aging creames. The wedding was a thing of the past. I asked her about it and she said it was a material object that it meant nothing that it wasn't on. I found the W on several other dating sites. I tried harder on our marriages unfortunately in all the wrong ways. I pushed her deeper into this new world of excitement and flirtation with guys. Fast forward to this year and things really deteriorated. She wouldn't change in front of me, when I kissed her it was like kissing a wall, their was no affection, no love. I figured at this point their was another M. I confronted her once more with all the evidence that I had found and she denied all of it. Then on June 10 she hit with; we need a break before we hate each other. I agreed and decided that our S would stay in the house and we would take turns leaving. That way our S would have his house, his bed and his friends while we worked on things. Nothing changed. I really worked on me during the first two months. I found a book, "The Tools" that really helped me find my inner happiness. Unfortunately nothing seemed to be pulling us closer. She was enjoying the time away and not having a shadow following her around. Why I couldn't have found Divorce Remedy back then! On July 29th 2012 she dropped the bomb. My heart sank! I was mortified. I was a QB in college and never was I hit this hard! I couldn't breath. I thought we were on a break. After some soul searching I printed out the papers and began filling them out. We agreed to no lawyers 50-50 everything including custody. I gave them to the W on Monday, July 30th. I figured if this is what she wants fine I can't change her mind. August 7, 2012 she decided to change cell phone providers and I became the primary on our family plan that we were sharing. I got the news I had been wondering. Over 5,500 texts to one number from April 28th to August 7. I did some digging and found out it was indeed another M. Sadly she went and spent the night with OM the night she dropped the bomb. For some reason she wouldn't sign the papers. I didn't bring up the OM. I began chasing ghosts. I was chasing something that wasn't there! She had moved on a long time ago WAS. It wasn't until Labor Day weekend that I knew how serious their A was. I took our S to my dads for a long weekend only to get a call from a neighbor that a truck was in the driveway. The OM spent Labor Day in my house, in my bed. I was sick to my stomach. I couldn't sleep, eat, much less breath. All I could think about was what they were doing. On Monday when we got back I told her everything. I said I could no longer live in the house, I lost all respect for her as a human being sign the papers I want to move on. She didn't sign the paper. I wasn't and haven't been angry once during this sitch and I still don't know why? I know I have every right to be but someone or something is leading me through this I truly believe that. After a week I told her I wanted to work on the marriage and that I have grown so much as a person throughout the seperation if she would only give us another chance. She said she would think about it. I backed off and gave her plenty of space. Over the weeks I new she was still seeing him. We agreed that from Sunday to Sunday we would rotate having our S. On the days I had him, I knew she would be with OM. She said they were just friends and that they never had s. Saturday, September 22nd I saw first hand what they were doing. I ran to the house to grab a shirt for our S and his truck was there. I went straight in and saw her naked putting her robe on and him sitting naked on the edge of the bed. All I could say was in my house again! All she cared about was why I came over and didn't let her know. My name is still on the mortgage and title and am still paying for half of it. I told her through text I saw everything I needed to see and thanks for all the lies. She came back with I saw nothing! That next day was brutal. She tried calling and texting but I wouldn't answer. Finally I answered that night and she said she wanted to talk. She said she was so confused and that I didn't see anything. BRACE YOURSELF FOR THE BEST LIE EVER, we never had sex up to that point, yes were going to have sex. I wanted to know if I felt guilty then I knew I still had feelings for you. If I didn't feel guilty then it was time to move on. I was floored by her comments. She wanted to sign the papers and I said I wanted a second chance. Why? I can't answer that. I asked if she honestly wanted to sign the papers and she didn't have an answer just stated how confused she was. I told her to give it one week, but she had to choose between saving our marriage and continuing the affair. A week went by and she said wanted to slowly work on the marriage. She wouldn't see him anymore but would still text because she was afraid if it doesn't work out with us she would still have him. I know she can't have her cake and eat it to. She didn't want me moving back in while we begin working on our sitch. She and the OM even went and changed the locks on the house after my intrusion on the two. So the next Friday we had dinner as our first date and it seemed to go well. The next night our S wanted to show me new shoes they bought and she asked if I wanted to go out to dinner with the two of them. I thought we were making progress till I found out the OM was at the house that following Monday night. And that is how I met all of you! I went in search of answers on how I could win my W back. I read so many heartbreaking stories and realized that I'm not alone. I bought DR Sunday, October 14th and finished it Friday, October 19th. What an incredible book. I began DBing two weeks ago. The first week I received nothing but this week she called a few times and texted almost everyday. I honestly believe the 180 is working and I am aware of any baby steps she is making. I truly love my wife and want desperately for our marriage to change forever because of this. Patience is key, something I am willing to give her. I have been giving her space since June 10, I was just going about it wrong. The texting began almost 6 months ago and the PA has been going on at least 2 and a half months. I could use some reassurance that I am doing the right thing and that our marriage can be saved. I know I screwed up along the way and never should have moved out of the house but I panicked. She has proven to be a very proficient liar so when she says it's over between them I don't believe it. She wants to have her cake and eat it to. I have stepped up to the plate with my self and have become the man she has always wanted. I saved our house from foreclosure, I consolidated our credit card debt, I am aware of my troubles with communication and plan on using solution based goals to communicate better but would it be best to just let her go? Walk a way and tell I'm done. We are selling the house please sign the papers. It's seems that's the only way she will wakeup out of the fog. For everyone out there trying to save the marriage, the best of luck and be strong. I am not very religious but two weeks ago I told the lord I can't do it anymore. You need to carry me for awhile. He never gives you more than you can handle but I needed a lift. I received some baby steps so I am focused again but would love some feedback. Good luck everyone!
Welcome to the board.
Have you read the DR book
Get out and GAL.
DETACH.
Believe none of what she says and half of what she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
You are on moderation right now on the forum.
SO post in small frequent posts until you get off of it.
Stick to this thread until 100 posts for your story.
Your W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
Use it wisely.
I took care of all the housework, the dishes, the cleaning, caring for our son, taking care of our dog, the laundry and even some cooking. I thought this was showing my love for her, after all I am a pleaser.
Well that's fantastic, but unfortunately you may be trying to communicate to her in the wrong love language. I ran across the same thing with my W, I assumed her LL was the same as mine and couldn't understand why she didn't respond to my attempts to show her love in that LL. Please read the 5 Love Languages, it'll open your eyes to what you've been doing wrong on this. It opened mine! I discovered my W's LL was completely different and was one I had not been feeding her love through at all!
I began working on things that bothered her. She even said that she noticed some changes but was afraid I would go back to the same old me.
You're on the right track, but DB'ing takes time. It'll take months of consistent 180's before she believes they're real and not just a trick to get her back.
I agreed and decided that our S would stay in the house and we would take turns leaving.
Do not leave. If she wants S, then tell her you understand and support her decision. But if that's what she wants then SHE needs to leave. SHE needs to suffer the consequences of leaving the home, finding a new place, moving stuff, paying new bills, etc.
After some soul searching I printed out the papers and began filling them out.
Don't do that! If she wants formal S or D, then let her fill out the papers. You can support her decision without actually helping her fill the papers out.
For some reason she wouldn't sign the papers.
She's confused and doesn't know what she wants. That's why it's important for you not to argue with her and not to help the process along. Often when a WAS faces the reality of seeing it all in black and white on paper, they back off.
The OM spent Labor Day in my house, in my bed. I was sick to my stomach. I couldn't sleep, eat, much less breath.
This is one of the reasons you don't want to leave the house. It's also a boundary you should have established with her- no OM in your house.
The texting began almost 6 months ago and the PA has been going on at least 2 and a half months. I could use some reassurance that I am doing the right thing and that our marriage can be saved.
Yes, it can absolutely be saved. MANY marriages have survived infidelity. There are no guarantees, but follow DB principals and even if the M isn't saved you'll emerge better, stronger and more confident. Most affairs last less than 6 months. Initially there's a dopamine release that gives people those "puppy love" feelings, but it goes away in a matter of weeks or months and that's when the reality of what they're doing hits home. Often they realize the new sitch is no better than the old one, or may even be worse. That's usually when the A ends. Plus the whole excitement thing of having an affair wears off too.
In the meantime, you need to take stock of what happened in your M and your contributions to the problems, and you need to do 180's on those things. You need to show your W a stronger, more confident you. Think about what you were like when she met you and try to be more like that guy. You mentioned being a QB, I bet you were heavy on the alpha. But then you mentioned you now do all the household stuff, that's all beta. Beta makes women feel comfy, but it doesn't attract them to men like alpha does. Get in touch with your alpha side again. Check out the Married Man's Sex Life Primer for some great info on alpha versus beta behavior.
I know I screwed up along the way and never should have moved out of the house but I panicked.
If you can figure out a way to get back in then do so.
but would it be best to just let her go?
No, it would not be better. Divorce does not fix anything (unless there's physical violence involved). Kids suffer significant harm in D and it's usually something they carry throughout life. D very rarely makes either spouse happier and often makes them far less happy. No one wins in D. Sometimes no matter how hard you fight it still ends up there, but at least if you fight you can rest assured you did what you could.
It's seems that's the only way she will wakeup out of the fog.
No, that won't do it. Only time and space will bring her out of the fog.
Cadet,
Thank you for reading my sitch. I read DR last week and it was very enlightening. I began detaching a few weeks ago after reading so many posts here. I don't call, or text. After a week of no contact she has begun calling and texting a few nights a week but recently the phone calls have been about random things not just business with our S. I have been patient in this process but it's extremely hard some times.
AnotherStander,
Thank you for taking the time to examine my sitch and the advice about the Love Languages Book. I will have to purchase it this weekend.
I wish I never would have moved out. I'm the one out of the house, paying my own bills, suffering the loss of my house while she has the house to her self, the OM, and me as a security net. I'm not sure how to get back in the house without causing a major confrontation. She changed the locks on me so I can't get in if I tried. I know fear plays a part in my reluctance and it shouldn't be. A friend of mine told me if the W truly wanted the D she would have signed months ago.
Should I set my boundaries with her right now and say I am moving back in? I will need to build up the strength for that one.
I love the alpha line. The W always took care of the bills and as soon as I left credit cards and mortgage stopped getting paid. I contacted all creditors and am back on track, I even refinanced our home to lower payments. I have never stepped up like this and realized I need become the alpha in our marriage.
Thanks again for your time and wisdom. I was hoping to hear that I needed to keep plugging. Like so many here, I want our NEW marriage to work more than anything in this world.
AnotherStander
Going back to the LL's, I just remembered a conversation my W and I had about showing love. I said that to show love you must use action. She felt showing love was through emotion and conversation. I really can't wait to find this book so I can decipher her way of thinking. Thanks again.
Week 1 Detach 180
No contact whatsoever with spouse. The only contact we had was dropping my S off at the house Sunday. Sidenote, we split time with our S from Sunday to Sunday. I have S every Tuesday and W has S every Thursday. It breaks up the weeks we don't have him making it more bearable.
Week 2 Detach 180
I still don't call or text only to call my S. W actually called and wanted to talk to me about S and bills Monday. Tuesday W called on her way home but had a different tone. I'm sure she was bored driving but we talked about random stuff. Thursday W called and asked if I could pick something up for her. I kept it short and she would follow me everywhere I went in the house. I cut the conversation short and left. I am beginning to think the detachment is working.
Week 3 Detach 180
W called Sunday to ask if I could watch S for a few hours. I would never turn down the chance to see him as he has been my life see he was born. However her reasoning didn't check out. Another lie. Believe nothing what they say, believe little what they do! That's a fact. Rather than get angry I have decided to detach more. Last night the W texted that she was going somewhere with her dad and didn't even respond. However I had my S call her she wanted to talk with me. Again it was more chit-chat than bills so I told her I was going to get back to the football game. It hurts to do this but I know for myself I need to distance myself from the lies.
Journal Entry
Reading my post you may say what are you doing about yourself? Since June I have really stepped back and began finding myself. I was never comfortable leaving our S or the house. I always thought I needed to be home working on something or being there for our S. I lost who I was. This opportunity has brought me back to who I really am. I have become stronger and am not as afraid of confrontation and that it's important to confront my feelings. I went down the list of things I felt pushed our M away and a list of what W was not happy about. A lot of the problems can be fixed with solution-oriented goals. We weren't communicating well with each other. I just hope she will see the changes and want to make things work. I can't push her to do it. She needs to be the one to end the A and ask to work on our marriage.
Last thought for anyone reading my journey,
Should I continue to detach or should I ask to sit down with her and go over my boundaries. I want to come home, and I want her to end the affair. I want to know that we are working on our marriage. The last time I told her I was done she responded with, I thought about everything and want to slowly work on the marriage. 2 nights later the OM was again in my bed. Please let me know what your thoughts are.
Why can't I say no! W called and asked for a favor. She told me she had the chance to go to a professional sporting event Thursday and asked if I would take our S since it's her night to have him. She wants to exchange for another night. I know she will end up with the OM for this event and I should stop being their for her every time she needs something. I can't detach from favors and it's driving me nuts. Any tips, I tried saying I was busy but she wanted to know what I was doing and saw right through it. She knows I will do anything for her so back on the yo yo! Not happy with myself right now.
Thank you Another for the book reference The 5 Love Languages. My W is going to the game Thurs and picked our S up last night. S did not want to go so that was tough. Rather than dwell on it I went and picked up LL book. I read the first two languages and slapped my forehead. I always thought actions spoke love. W responds to Quality Time and more specifically Quality Conversation. It's such a simple technique that I wish I paid more attention to years ago. Now how do I begin to speak with her through this love language when we physically see each other roughly 5 minutes a week?
Is anyone seeing these posts. If their is a way to bump this to the top so more people see this I appreciate it. I could use some advice and reassurance I'm doing the right thing. This has been a rough week. I have felt that I have enough love for the two of us to get us through this time but lately I have struggled to keep fighting. I know I need to work on myself and for 41/2 months that is what I have done. The baby steps that I have seen make me wonder if it's just to keep me on the leash? I could use some guidance from the vets.
I haven't received any feedback these past few days but have been reading a lot of posts. I have spent the better part of three days reading Denver's sitch and am pumped to fight for my marriage. I love his logic...
Be the better man - This is where you apply all of the DB techniques that you read about.
GAL - this is about enjoying your own life and helps with detachment, but it is also about becoming a better person. A person who is not unhappy, predictable, and bitter towards your situation. Those are all unattractive qualities and don't help "being the better man". GAL helps you have a PMA... helps you have some happiness in your life... makes you seem less predictable... makes you exciting... helps you smile a bit. These ARE attractive qualities, and do help you be "the better man".
180s - Being the better man includes figuring out where you have come up short in fulfilling the needs of your W and your M and fixing them... in yourself. What is it about OM that your W finds attractive? OM is definitely meeting some need that your W has. Whatever it is, you need to start working on it, doing it, doing a 180.
Be the man that your W fell in love with. That person IS the better man when compared to OM. Your W married you!!! NOT OM. Once upon a time, your W chose you as the better man... over all men!! Be that person again! I cannot stress this enough.
These are the weapons that we need to use for this WAR. And don't let anyone fool you, that's what this is if you choose to fight it. You don't fight it with ultimatums to your W, threats to D your W, personal threats to OM, or other tactics that have been referred to on this board as the "hard line approach".
Journal Entry
October 25
W went to the game last night. She sent a picture text. I did not respond to her text again. W hasn't contacted me since Tuesday maybe it's getting at her that I'm not responding to her texts. The last three texts she has sent haven't warranted a response so I have been in the dark. It makes me want to reach out to her to initiate conversation again because she does contact me. But knowing their is a PA going on I know I really need to stay in the dark right now.
Journal Entry
October 26
I am going to take S to a Halloween store to pick out a costume then out to dinner. Tomorrow I am going to take him to a movie and an ice cream shop he likes. I figure we can have fun just the two of us, part of GALing right?
DB Mod,
Any suggestions on feedback? I could use some moral support as my friends and family want me to walk away.
I wish I never would have moved out. I'm the one out of the house, paying my own bills, suffering the loss of my house while she has the house to her self, the OM, and me as a security net.
Well it's done, so don't worry about it. But for anyone else reading, don't move out if you're in this sitch!
I'm not sure how to get back in the house without causing a major confrontation. She changed the locks on me so I can't get in if I tried.
Wow, that's messed up! Is your name jointly on the paperwork? I really don't know what your rights to the house are since you've voluntarily moved out, you'd probably have to talk to an L about that.
Going back to the LL's, I just remembered a conversation my W and I had about showing love. I said that to show love you must use action. She felt showing love was through emotion and conversation. I really can't wait to find this book so I can decipher her way of thinking.
Right, that's what the book teaches is that different people show and receive love through different languages. Unfortunately we all assume that there is just one love language, our own, and that everyone else should respond to it like we do. So we get upset when others don't show us love in our language, and we get upset when we show love to others in our language and they don't respond. So we go through our relationships being angry, not realizing it's all just a big misunderstanding!
Last thought for anyone reading my journey,
Should I continue to detach or should I ask to sit down with her and go over my boundaries. I want to come home, and I want her to end the affair. I want to know that we are working on our marriage. The last time I told her I was done she responded with, I thought about everything and want to slowly work on the marriage. 2 nights later the OM was again in my bed. Please let me know what your thoughts are.
You can't set boundaries if you're separated and she's not willing to work on the M. Because boundaries need enforcement, and there is no enforcement if one spouse is already checked out. IE, if you tell her "no more OM in the house, or else I'll cut off all contact." She might think "well I'm done with you anyway, what do I care" and invite OM in the very same night. See what I mean? And all you've done is drive her away. So forget the boundaries for now and focus on DB'ing.
Thank you Another for the book reference The 5 Love Languages.
I read the first two languages and slapped my forehead. I always thought actions spoke love. W responds to Quality Time and more specifically Quality Conversation. It's such a simple technique that I wish I paid more attention to years ago.
You're welcome, and I know, it's frustrating when we learn we could have been showing love so easily all along but didn't because we were clueless about how to do it. I really wish I had read that book years ago.
Now how do I begin to speak with her through this love language when we physically see each other roughly 5 minutes a week?
Quality time may be tough, but quality conversation is something you can work on. DB conversation is focused on listening- make plenty of eye contact, lean forward, nod, pay attention. No TV, phone or other distractions. Validate emotions. Speak only enough to keep the conversation going, listen 80% and speak 20%. Keep reading the book, you don't have to show love only through 1 or 2 languages. Go for all 5. There are tips throughout the book that can work even over the phone or in texts & email.
I haven't received any feedback these past few days but have been reading a lot of posts.
You are/ were on moderation, so your posts don't show up until approved.
GAL - this is about enjoying your own life and helps with detachment, but it is also about becoming a better person. A person who is not unhappy, predictable, and bitter towards your situation. Those are all unattractive qualities and don't help "being the better man". GAL helps you have a PMA... helps you have some happiness in your life... makes you seem less predictable... makes you exciting... helps you smile a bit. These ARE attractive qualities, and do help you be "the better man".
Good! Yes, that's it exactly
Now live it!
180s - Being the better man includes figuring out where you have come up short in fulfilling the needs of your W and your M and fixing them... in yourself. What is it about OM that your W finds attractive? OM is definitely meeting some need that your W has. Whatever it is, you need to start working on it, doing it, doing a 180.
Yes, well said. Now get out paper and write those 180's down, or post them here for comment!
These are the weapons that we need to use for this WAR.
Just a small correction, I wouldn't think of it in those terms. War is conflict. DB'ing is all about removing conflict, giving W time and space, working only on yourself, and waiting patiently. It's really pacifism.
She sent a picture text. I did not respond to her text again. W hasn't contacted me since Tuesday maybe it's getting at her that I'm not responding to her texts. The last three texts she has sent haven't warranted a response so I have been in the dark.
You may be misunderstanding detachment. It's not the same as going dark. Going dark is the LRT, and it's called "last resort" because that's what it is. You use it when all else has failed. Detachment is pulling back and being a bit mysterious. If W sends 3 texts, respond to 1 a few hours later, then maybe the next right away, then maybe the next not at all. And when you respond, be friendly, not cold and short. The idea is to show her a confident, happy you that she can't live without, but in a way that makes her wonder if you've decided to move on without her. If she calls, answer sometimes and other times let it go to voicemail and call back an hour later. If you go out to a movie by yourself and she asks where you were just say you were busy. Things like that.
Thank you for the input AS, I welcome all feedback especially those vets that have been through this. My name is still on the title of the house on on our mortgage. We just refinanced two weeks ago and we both signed for it.
I did talk to a lawyer and I have every right to drill the locks out and be in my home but that could start a battle which I do not want. I love my wife more than anything I feel if I let the A run it's course while I better my life she will come back.
AS
Thanks for the clarification on going dark and detaching. I feel that detaching has worked for both of us, she is not always on my mind and it seems that she has responded positively by reaching out text and call. I know she is just as confused and I know I have to let herself find her way through the fog but patience is not easy. I have read DR but it sounds like I should run back to the bookstore and get DB as well. Since my conversations are limited it sounds like DB may help. Again, thanks for the suggestion. I have now read more books in three months than I have in 10 years. LOL
Why can't I say no! W called and asked for a favor. She told me she had the chance to go to a professional sporting event Thursday and asked if I would take our S since it's her night to have him. She wants to exchange for another night. I know she will end up with the OM for this event and I should stop being their for her every time she needs something. I can't detach from favors and it's driving me nuts. Any tips, I tried saying I was busy but she wanted to know what I was doing and saw right through it. She knows I will do anything for her so back on the yo yo! Not happy with myself right now.
Disclaimer: This is just what I did and may be the wrong way to go at it, but I have been in the same situation. I basically just said I didn't have any plans and agreed to have S for the sake of me and S, but told her it wouldn't mean automatically exchanging days. That way she knows I'm doing it for me and S, and in the short run she might end up losing that day. Realistically though, I probably need to exchange sooner or later.
May sound stupid but at first I was afraid to be viewed as her babysitter, enabling her to live her life. I won't let that stand in the way of me spending time with S though, that's far more important.
Or you could try to actually be busy. That way you don't have time to do her favors and since you're telling the truth there is nothing to see through.
Good point theUF
I have always been there for my S and embrace any chance I can have him. Letting her know that I'm doing it for my S and I would be perfect. Need to work on being busy though. Thanks for the suggestion.
I did talk to a lawyer and I have every right to drill the locks out and be in my home but that could start a battle which I do not want. I love my wife more than anything I feel if I let the A run it's course while I better my life she will come back.
OK, well with that in mind, if it were me, I'd consider having a talk with her. Maybe something along the lines of:
"W, I've been doing a lot of thinking and I should not have moved out. I would like to work on things with you, and I can't do that effectively if I live somewhere else. Plus I feel like I'm being punished for something that isn't my fault. I've checked into this (not sure if I'd mention L) and I do have the legal right to move back in with or without your consent since we own the home jointly. So I'm going to move back in on XX date. If you feel that you want to maintain separation then maybe we can live in separate bedrooms, we can work out those details later. But regardless, I will be moving back in."
If she goes into rant mode, just tell her you'd be happy to discuss it with her later when she calms down and then excuse yourself.
I understand your concerns about creating a conflict, but honestly, she's sleeping with OM in your bed? THAT is creating conflict, saying you're going to move back in pales in comparison to that.
Thanks AS,
Fear is causing me not to have that conversation? Why? Afraid she will pull the plug on our marriage. But hasn't she already? What is the worst thing that can happen, I'm already living it! This would be a 180, I have always been passive and gone with the flow avoiding conflict.I will give this serious thought.
Thank you!
I have come so far but she is still full blown in the A and it may get ugly. But on the other hand my 180's would be much more noticeable.
My 180's
GAL
Get out with friends once a week
Learn Dreamweaver to get new job
Look good/smell good/feel good
Stand up for my self
Work out again
Continue to find my inner happiness
Be awesome - Laughed at myself for that one
AS
I know I should do this sooner than later but with my DBing and 180ing working I was thinking Dec 1 I would try to move back in. We refinanced and don't have a mortgage payment till December so that would be the perfect scenario. I know she will struggle with the payment on her own I just wanted her to end the affair and ask me to move home.
Hey BD,
Sorry that you had to find yourself posting here but in our sitches, it's the best place to be with the best people to talk to.
You've been getting excellent advice from AS so I have nothing more to add except for this little thing on detachment.
You may be misunderstanding detachment. It's not the same as going dark. Going dark is the LRT, and it's called "last resort" because that's what it is. You use it when all else has failed. Detachment is pulling back and being a bit mysterious. If W sends 3 texts, respond to 1 a few hours later, then maybe the next right away, then maybe the next not at all. And when you respond, be friendly, not cold and short. The idea is to show her a confident, happy you that she can't live without, but in a way that makes her wonder if you've decided to move on without her. If she calls, answer sometimes and other times let it go to voicemail and call back an hour later. If you go out to a movie by yourself and she asks where you were just say you were busy. Things like that.
From what I understand, detachment is not an action you do but a state of being. It's the ability to not be affected by everything your W says, does, doesn't say or doesn't do. It's accepting that what is simply is and that your reaction to things or feelings about them won't necessarily make things better.
Here is a link to a description of detachment which might be useful.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/I think it's one of the most difficult things to deal with simply because we are emotionally attached to our Spouses and therefore affected by what they do.
This will undoubtedly create an aura of mystery about you as AS says, as you'll behave as you might if you'd decided to move on.
BTW, I'm a big fan of Denver as well. Very insightful and definitely a loving approach to DB, IMO. Lots to learn from those threads.
I took care of all the housework, the dishes, the cleaning, caring for our son, taking care of our dog, the laundry and even some cooking. I thought this was showing my love for her, after all I am a pleaser.
Well that's fantastic, but unfortunately you may be trying to communicate to her in the wrong love language. I ran across the same thing with my W, I assumed her LL was the same as mine and couldn't understand why she didn't respond to my attempts to show her love in that LL. Please read the 5 Love Languages, it'll open your eyes to what you've been doing wrong on this. It opened mine! I discovered my W's LL was completely different and was one I had not been feeding her love through at all!
I began working on things that bothered her. She even said that she noticed some changes but was afraid I would go back to the same old me.
You're on the right track, but DB'ing takes time. It'll take months of consistent 180's before she believes they're real and not just a trick to get her back.
I agreed and decided that our S would stay in the house and we would take turns leaving.
Do not leave. If she wants S, then tell her you understand and support her decision. But if that's what she wants then SHE needs to leave. SHE needs to suffer the consequences of leaving the home, finding a new place, moving stuff, paying new bills, etc.
After some soul searching I printed out the papers and began filling them out.
Don't do that! If she wants formal S or D, then let her fill out the papers. You can support her decision without actually helping her fill the papers out.
For some reason she wouldn't sign the papers.
She's confused and doesn't know what she wants. That's why it's important for you not to argue with her and not to help the process along. Often when a WAS faces the reality of seeing it all in black and white on paper, they back off.
The OM spent Labor Day in my house, in my bed. I was sick to my stomach. I couldn't sleep, eat, much less breath.
This is one of the reasons you don't want to leave the house. It's also a boundary you should have established with her- no OM in your house.
The texting began almost 6 months ago and the PA has been going on at least 2 and a half months. I could use some reassurance that I am doing the right thing and that our marriage can be saved.
Yes, it can absolutely be saved. MANY marriages have survived infidelity. There are no guarantees, but follow DB principals and even if the M isn't saved you'll emerge better, stronger and more confident. Most affairs last less than 6 months. Initially there's a dopamine release that gives people those "puppy love" feelings, but it goes away in a matter of weeks or months and that's when the reality of what they're doing hits home. Often they realize the new sitch is no better than the old one, or may even be worse. That's usually when the A ends. Plus the whole excitement thing of having an affair wears off too.
In the meantime, you need to take stock of what happened in your M and your contributions to the problems, and you need to do 180's on those things. You need to show your W a stronger, more confident you. Think about what you were like when she met you and try to be more like that guy. You mentioned being a QB, I bet you were heavy on the alpha. But then you mentioned you now do all the household stuff, that's all beta. Beta makes women feel comfy, but it doesn't attract them to men like alpha does. Get in touch with your alpha side again. Check out the Married Man's Sex Life Primer for some great info on alpha versus beta behavior.
I know I screwed up along the way and never should have moved out of the house but I panicked.
If you can figure out a way to get back in then do so.
but would it be best to just let her go?
No, it would not be better. Divorce does not fix anything (unless there's physical violence involved). Kids suffer significant harm in D and it's usually something they carry throughout life. D very rarely makes either spouse happier and often makes them far less happy. No one wins in D. Sometimes no matter how hard you fight it still ends up there, but at least if you fight you can rest assured you did what you could.
It's seems that's the only way she will wakeup out of the fog.
No, that won't do it. Only time and space will bring her out of the fog.
Hi BD. I am catching up, so may have a few replies in a row.
First, I am sorry that you have to be here on this board. It is a sh!tty situation for anyone to have to go looking for this place. That said, it is a wonderful place, with wonderful people, to get support and advice from others who have been, or are, in your shoes.
You have already been through a lot with this. I know how emotionally exhausting it can be. One of the most important things for you to do is to take stock of your emotional fuel to keep going. Preserve when necessary. Seek out outlets to refuel when necessary.
I agree with most of what AS told you. 5LL's is great. I highly suggest it as well. The other book, the Married Man's Sex Planner, I have not read so I can't give you an opinion. Take AS's word for it though as he has been through a lot as well and give good advice.
The only thing that I'm not positive that I agree with is that moving on is not the best thing to do. I'm not saying that I do NOT agree, but I think that it is a personal choice. That is a question that only you can answer my friend.
So, let me ask you...
1) WHY do you want to save your M?
Based on the facts of your situation, another question keeps popping up in my mind...
2) Do you believe that you would EVER be able to trust your W again?
Okay... back to reading.
I can't push her to do it. She needs to be the one to end the A and ask to work on our marriage.
All of that is good. You need to be working on that stuff during this time apart from your W.
No. You cannot push her to end the A and work on the M. You can't make her do it. Nor can you expedite the process. That is why Patience and Time are two of the most important things here.
I also want to comment on the house situation.
What is your current living situation?
I do not think that it is good that you are paying for 1/2 of the mortgage under the circumstances. I suggest that you have a strong but polite conversation about this and give her two options. 1) She continues to live in the house but takes on the full mortgate, or 2) you move into the house, she moves out, and you pay the full mortgage.
She needs to have a chance to see the consequences of the choices that she is making. It is not to punish, not to teach, but to ALLOW her to see reality. The reality of what happens if the two of you D.
She will probably say no to both options, and that is fine for the time being. She will be put on notice that she can't continue to live on both sides of the fence. You can end the conversation by saying, 'well, you need to think about this, because we can't continue to do it this way for much longer." Or something like that.
Last thought for anyone reading my journey,
Should I continue to detach or should I ask to sit down with her and go over my boundaries. I want to come home, and I want her to end the affair. I want to know that we are working on our marriage. The last time I told her I was done she responded with, I thought about everything and want to slowly work on the marriage. 2 nights later the OM was again in my bed. Please let me know what your thoughts are.
I still haven't finished reading your posts, so maybe you've come to this conclusion since posting this, but she is clearly NOT working on your M right now.
She is trying on another pair of shoes to see if they fit. Yet she is keeping the old pair (you) around just in case.
Why can't I say no! W called and asked for a favor. She told me she had the chance to go to a professional sporting event Thursday and asked if I would take our S since it's her night to have him. She wants to exchange for another night. I know she will end up with the OM for this event and I should stop being their for her every time she needs something. I can't detach from favors and it's driving me nuts. Any tips, I tried saying I was busy but she wanted to know what I was doing and saw right through it. She knows I will do anything for her so back on the yo yo! Not happy with myself right now.
I understand this very well. I eventually learned that as long as OM was in her life, that I would not be in her life, let alone doing favors for her. I think that you need to get to that place.
Yes, you are enabling her affair by agreeing to do these favors. You are NOT allowing her to see REAL life. That she is a mother and that her responsibilities are going to be part of her life, EVEN IF she is with OM.
Thank you Another for the book reference The 5 Love Languages. My W is going to the game Thurs and picked our S up last night. S did not want to go so that was tough. Rather than dwell on it I went and picked up LL book. I read the first two languages and slapped my forehead. I always thought actions spoke love. W responds to Quality Time and more specifically Quality Conversation. It's such a simple technique that I wish I paid more attention to years ago. Now how do I begin to speak with her through this love language when we physically see each other roughly 5 minutes a week?
Also look into 'emotional intimacy'. I don't have a good book reference, but I found some good stuff on the internet.
You don't do it right now. She is with another man. You are learning the tools so that WHEN the time comes, you can do this.
Right now, I think that you need to be in LRT.
Journal Entry
October 26
I am going to take S to a Halloween store to pick out a costume then out to dinner. Tomorrow I am going to take him to a movie and an ice cream shop he likes. I figure we can have fun just the two of us, part of GALing right?
Absolutely!!! Do stuff for your S and for YOU right now. Do you have any interests that you have wanted to pursue but haven't? NOW is as good of a time as any BD.
You tried to avoid agreeing to a favor earlier by telling her that you were busy. You said that she asked about it and could see right through it.
First, she has no right to ask you, so give her vague responses. "I'm going out"... "where are you going?"... "I'm going out with friends W. Have a good night."
Second, GET BUSY. You need to GAL for sure! With son, but also with friends. Get out. Try to have some fun. I know that it is hard, but it WILL make you feel better. It will also make her wonder what it is that you are doing. And curiosity and mystery are good things right now.
Third, if you are not busy and don't want to do her the favor, just tell her. Don't do anything that you don't want to do. Don't do anything that you don't feel is right to do. YOu could have told her, "W, of course i love to see son and would do anything for him. But it is your time with him and that is important too. I'm going to spend sometime alone tomorrow night."
I haven't received any feedback these past few days but have been reading a lot of posts. I have spent the better part of three days reading Denver's sitch and am pumped to fight for my marriage. I love his logic...
Be the better man - This is where you apply all of the DB techniques that you read about.
GAL - this is about enjoying your own life and helps with detachment, but it is also about becoming a better person. A person who is not unhappy, predictable, and bitter towards your situation. Those are all unattractive qualities and don't help "being the better man". GAL helps you have a PMA... helps you have some happiness in your life... makes you seem less predictable... makes you exciting... helps you smile a bit. These ARE attractive qualities, and do help you be "the better man".
180s - Being the better man includes figuring out where you have come up short in fulfilling the needs of your W and your M and fixing them... in yourself. What is it about OM that your W finds attractive? OM is definitely meeting some need that your W has. Whatever it is, you need to start working on it, doing it, doing a 180.
Be the man that your W fell in love with. That person IS the better man when compared to OM. Your W married you!!! NOT OM. Once upon a time, your W chose you as the better man... over all men!! Be that person again! I cannot stress this enough.
These are the weapons that we need to use for this WAR. And don't let anyone fool you, that's what this is if you choose to fight it. You don't fight it with ultimatums to your W, threats to D your W, personal threats to OM, or other tactics that have been referred to on this board as the "hard line approach".
As I said on another thread, I couldn't sum it up any better BD. Add to it time and patience.
Also, right now, because OM is in the picture, you need to be LRT. Being dark or dim is what you should be doing. Let her initiate contact. When she does, politely respond with short, to the point, answers. Don't open the door to further conversation by asking questions of her... let her do it. Let her wonder why you SEEM to be losing interest in what SHE is doing.
It is THAT, plus the curiosity that you create by GAL, that MAY get her to wonder IF she may be losing you. AND THAT is what you need to make progress. To get HER to start thinking.
Nothing will be saved while OM is in the picture. OM will be in the picture until W starts to do some serious thinking about whether or not she really wants to lose you.
Right now, you be the better man by:
1) being a good dad,
2) giving her space and time
3) loving her from afar
4) staying out of the mud (no anger or pressure)
I will try to keep up BD. Good luck man.
Denver
Why can't I say no! W called and asked for a favor. She told me she had the chance to go to a professional sporting event Thursday and asked if I would take our S since it's her night to have him. She wants to exchange for another night. I know she will end up with the OM for this event and I should stop being their for her every time she needs something. I can't detach from favors and it's driving me nuts. Any tips, I tried saying I was busy but she wanted to know what I was doing and saw right through it. She knows I will do anything for her so back on the yo yo! Not happy with myself right now.
I'm glad you guys are seeing if you are doing favor, providing emotional and financial support for a spouse that is in an active affair, you are building the NORM for them to be able to expect it.
It makes it much worse for you and harder to almost impossible to undo.
Pulling all of your emotional and financial support also allows them to see the reality of their relationship with the OP. Many times the OP is there just for the fun and sex, and the other pieces you were providing. When the OP has to provide those other pieces they are likely to not want to deal with the "drama", and will send that H or W back home because they don't want to deal with it.
I understand this very well. I eventually learned that as long as OM was in her life, that I would not be in her life, let alone doing favors for her. I think that you need to get to that place.
Yes, you are enabling her affair by agreeing to do these favors. You are NOT allowing her to see REAL life. That she is a mother and that her responsibilities are going to be part of her life, EVEN IF she is with OM.
Thank you Arsene for the the livestrong link about detaching. I am beginning to understand what that means.
Denver,
Thank you very much for taking the time to read my sitch. I admire your tenacity and you give all of us hope that our marriages can be saved. Thank you for paying it forward.
I took my wedding vows seriously and believe we are in a bad time but would hard work and patience we can get through this. My W and had an amazing first few years and strongly believe we can get that back.
Trust is going to be the hardest part. This past year, she has lived a lie. We will have plenty to work on to build that trust back.
I understand while the OM is in the picture our marriage is a distant memory. I am ok with that for now because I have made great strides in working on me. I found my inner happiness. I took stepped back and really dissected these past few years and know when things went south, what I did to contribute and what she failed to do to help the situation. We both have different love languages and we tried to show our love the way we wanted to be loved. I wish I would have seen that before.
I am not the most religious person in the world but since I found out about the OM I have felt a presence around me ever since. Call me crazy but it is a calming presence that has allowed me to really focus on the task at hand rather than waist emotions on anger and revenge. My gut tells me to keep the faith that this will have a happy ending just like it told me that their was trouble a few months ago.
Journal Entry Friday, October 25
I had a good day today and even ended with W contacting me for the first time since Tuesday. Two weeks ago my W began texting and calling almost every day. The phone calls have changed from short business talks to more casual info about what is going on in our lives. I think the DBing is working. I didn't respond to W last few texts because they weren't question oriented. I let them go. I received a text tonight:
W: Not Talking?
ME: Been busy what's up?
W: You didn't answer my question
ME: I am always here if you want to talk.
W: What?
W: Did you show S the pic I sent you last night?
ME: Yes S saw it last night, he also says he saw you on TV, LOL
Five minutes later she calls and talks about the game and other stuff. During the 20 minute conversation she asked what we were doing for dinner but I didn't take the bait. We talked for a bit after the conversation and I told her I was going to have to letter go but would have S call later.
During my S's conversation he said to W OK we'll see you tomorrow. And her response was Oh are you guys going to stop over tomorrow (sounding happy) and I then reminded S we would see her Sunday. I got the impression she hoped we would stop over tomorrow.
I am not sure if she went to the event with OM after all. During our conversation she stated that her co-worker that she went with's S said he saw her on TV. The way she has been acting, I wonder if the fantasy life with OM has taken a turn.
I am not going to get my hopes up I have read to many on here get their hopes up only to be smacked by a 2x4 and sent back a few steps. I am however going to document positive baby steps that make me believe DBing is working.
I would love to hear what everyone else thinks about the turn of events tonight?
One more thought Denver,
W made a comment about helping me pay our debt but said it would be hard even though the mortgage payment won't be till December. Makes me believe W is going to try paying on her own. I will be in contact with our lender to make sure it's paid on time every month. I won't let the house go into foreclosure. I will force a sell or tell her I am moving at the point.
AS made a good point about me telling W that I am going to move back in but feel that would be the opposite of what I should be doing right now. I think the LRT is showing show signs of life and would hate to slow progress. I see both arguments so this is a very tricky proposition.
OM just showed up at the house. Guess last night was just her seeing if I was still talking to her. Not sure how to handle this.
Maybe moving back in the house is becoming a better option now. At least you won't be paying the mortgage for a place where your W and her OM can meet so easily.
OM just showed up at the house. Guess last night was just her seeing if I was still talking to her. Not sure how to handle this.
That is tough man. Were you there? At some point, you are going to have to have some boundaries. Don't let her get some of her needs met by you, and others met by OM.
Moving back into the house WITH her would not be a good idea right now, IMO. Sometimes, the physical separation is good. My point is that she needs to pay her way. She is choosing a path that will eventually lead to D if not changed. She needs to have a chance to see what that means.
I think that so many WAS's have a delusional idea in their heads about what life will be like without the LBS. Some think that they will have the same life style financially, some think that all of their unhappiness is going to go away, some think that their LbS is going to be their friend, etc. One thing that I learned is that I had to let my W get a glimpse of what life would be like without me. That was hard, and sometimes I didn't do it well. But what I was able to do in that regard was important to W finally coming around.
Thanks for the advice Denver. I have a close neighbor that informed me OM showed up. I don't think moving back in will help the the situation at all. She knows how to play mind games with me and physical separation will allow me to be in control. I think I may need to go dark for awhile and let her see that I won't be around for her when she wants to take me off the shelf.Like you said, she needs to know what life will be like without me in it.
I used to get so angry when I knew OM was with W but it didn't bother that much tonight. My S and I went to a college hockey game and had a blast. This community has been amazing and I am so glad I found it. Arsene, moving in would stop the OM from disrespecting my house but don't think it would benefit the sitch. I think going dark for a while and only discussing bills and S through text is what I will do. No more favors no more conversations till OM is gone. I need to work on my boundaries, even though she will lie and manipulate the truth. Believing nothing they say and 20% of what they do is so true with my W right now. Tomorrow will be interesting as we will see each other as I drop our S off at W's house.
Do you know if she sees OM at the house while S is with her?
No W said she wouldn't bring OM around S. S has never mentioned someone else at the house and we are very close. Last night s asked why W switched days with me and he remembered the game. Then said I guess the home team is more important to W then I am. It broke my heart. I reassured him that nothing would ever be more important than him to me.
Yeah mate. These kids are smart. They see things even if we try to act "as if". They know the score, don't they?
LOL My W just called and wanted to talk, then asked if I was going to drop S off. I said I could and she asked if I wanted to stay for dinner? What? I agreed just so I could see where this is going to go. I plan on looking good, smelling good and feeling good. This is a chance to work my 180s.
It is amazing how much children can pick up on things. I am afraid W is losing the respect and love of her own S through her own actions.
A friend of W was at the hockey game last night and texted her that he thought we were there. Maybe by me showing her I am getting a life outside of her is making her twice. The OM was there for about two hours yesterday afternoon but don't know if he spent the night. W said she went to girlfriends house and to a bar for a while but was home early. More lies I suppose.
Just got back from the W's house. We ended up carving pumpkins and had dinner as a family. I allowed her to carry the conversations while I stopped what I was doing and looked into her eyes. It actually felt normal. It was a good night overall. I thanked her for inviting me over and then I left. I'm afraid Denver you are right though. I think she wants to friends and keep me close while she plays out the affair. How do you tell your WAS that you can't be friends with them until they and the affair without pushing them further away?
I think she wants to friends and keep me close while she plays out the affair. How do you tell your WAS that you can't be friends with them until they and the affair without pushing them further away?
This is a tough one. On the one hand DB'ing instructs to be your W's best friend. Be the person she wants to talk to whenever something good, bad or interesting happens. This paves the way to future reconciliation, because after all, before you dated you were probably good friends.
On the other hand, as Denver has pointed out in order for her to not see you as just a backup plan, at some point she has to think she may lose you. This is what LRT/ going dark is all about- showing her that she is losing you. But LRT should not be about acting like you're moving on. It should be about actually moving on. It's about you saying "that's it, I'm done trying to get her back, it's time for me to focus on myself and my life without her." This is exactly where Denver was when he did it, in fact he was the one that filed for D.
I guess I would ask you this- have you done 180's and has your W had time to truly see them? If the answer is 'no' then I would say you should consider trying to be her friend and continue to show her the 180's for a while. But if the answer is 'yes' and you feel like you've already shown her the new you, then maybe it's time for LRT.
Thanks for your response AS. Great timing as well. W called a few minutes ago to ask if I could swing over to the house and grab some card board from the rafters in our garage for her. I said I would call when I got done with work. She has not had the chance to see my 180's in action until yesterday. I think today could be another chance to show my 180's. It's tough though, knowing that her and the OM went out for a romantic dinner then stayed at a hotel. I received a little info from a mutual friend on that one. She has been at this game for over a year not with the same OM (EA last year for 2 months) and lied straight to my face about what she did Saturday night. I am beginning to weigh my options as far as filing for divorce. I don't see any effort or change on the horizon and I am getting tired!
Thanks for your response AS. Great timing as well. W called a few minutes ago to ask if I could swing over to the house and grab some card board from the rafters in our garage for her. I said I would call when I got done with work. She has not had the chance to see my 180's in action until yesterday. I think today could be another chance to show my 180's. It's tough though, knowing that her and the OM went out for a romantic dinner then stayed at a hotel. I received a little info from a mutual friend on that one. She has been at this game for over a year not with the same OM (EA last year for 2 months) and lied straight to my face about what she did Saturday night. I am beginning to weigh my options as far as filing for divorce. I don't see any effort or change on the horizon and I am getting tired!
AS has it right. However, I'm not so certain that you need a long period of showing your W your 180's. Her complaints were about things that were not all that bad. Fairly typical stuff IMO. Mine, on the other hand, were much worse.
It is typical Plan A and Plan B stuff here. For reference purposes, the Plan A/B strategy is from a book called Surviving the Affair.
Plan A - is basically being her friend, showing her 180's, opening avenues of communication, allowing the cheating spouse to go about their delusions without calling them out... being Mr. Nice Guy really.
Plan B - Is essentially LRT. You cut off most, if not all, contact. You set and enforce boundaries.
Check out the book if you want to learn more about that.
Essentially AS is right about LRT... that it calls for you to actually be done. He is right about where I got with it. I was DONE and told my W that I wanted a D. I got the paperwork completed, but never actually filed.
HOWEVER, I do think that LRT can be done without being DONE, or reaching that point. In fact, I think that it is essential that you give it a shot BEFORE you reach that point where you might be the one that ends the M.
If you look at my story, you will see that I applied LRT on a number of occasions.
At some point BD, you are going to have to do this. How do you do it?
1. Explain to your W, ONE TIME, that you love her and that you continue to want the M. That you believe that it can be saved, and that you and she can have a great M. Not average. Great. Much better than before. ONE TIME.
2. Explain to her that you cannot be a part of her life as long as OM is.
- that you will NO LONGER be an active part of her life until OM is completely out of the picture.
- That you don't want to have contact with her unless it has to do with "Bills or Boys" (coined by Jack3beans)... ie, finances or kids.
"W, I will not be a part of your life as long as any OM is. Unless, and until, that aspect of your life changes, I don't want any contact with you unless it has to do with [kid] or our bills. I appreciate you understanding."
*
THIS is your BOUNDARY3. Enforce the boundary by ending all non financial/kid related contact. Respond to your W's attempts to get around with short, concise, business like, but polite, responses to any contact.
- If she complains or gets p!ssed, don't be surprised. Respond that by maintaining your cool and politely reminding her what your boundary is.
------
This CAN be done without being DONE. Get it? It can be done without filing for a D.
I hear you Denver. If I didn't know about W's Saturday rendezvous I would think things were really turning around. She even asked if I wanted something from Subway meaning dinner two nights in a row. I was polite and helped her our with the boxes but said I was meeting a some friends downtown so I had to get going. W asked if I had a hot date and I kindly responded no I am married. I had a chat with a close friend of mine and much to my surprise he said to go dark for awhile. It seems these past few weeks she has taken the initiative to call and ask you over for dinner. Before she just wanted out. I am going to go dark for a while and when she asks why I am not calling I will let her know my boundaries. I have been thinking about this converation the past few days and am getting the strength to do it. Over the past month I have begun to lose my fear of her and I have been much more confident talking with her and maybe she sees that I am slipping away so so she is getting curious. When I formulate my boundaries I would like to run it by you guys. Thanks for checking in I still believe we can do this it gets hard though when you are the only one interested. The only thing that keeps me going is the thought of someday being back home happier than ever. I think se saw a glimpse last night!
Hi everyone,
This is my boundary that I have been working on for my W. W is full blown in a ea and pa relationship and am struggling with her double life. I am prepared to move on with my life if she so wishes but I can't be second fiddle to my own wife. Let me know what everyone thinks.
W, I want to thank you for the gift of time. Over the past four months I have lived in hell. I have walked through the gates of hell and realize our marriage is over. I love you and want to save our marriage. From this point moving forward I know our marriage will be better than it ever has before. My love for you has grown stronger and want nothing more than to be a family again. However, I cannot let you continue disrespecting me or our marriage. I will be happy to discuss any financial matters or Son but until you have ended your affair, everything else is off the table.
I am guessing she will ask where this came from and my response not mention of her OM simply I have grown up and became the man, the husband you wished I would be.
Beardown
Hi everyone,
This is my boundary that I have been working on for my W. W is full blown in a ea and pa relationship and am struggling with her double life. I am prepared to move on with my life if she so wishes but I can't be second fiddle to my own wife. Let me know what everyone thinks.
W, I want to thank you for the gift of time. Over the past four months I have lived in hell. I have walked through the gates of hell and realize our marriage is over. I love you and want to save our marriage. From this point moving forward I know our marriage will be better than it ever has before. My love for you has grown stronger and want nothing more than to be a family again. However, I cannot let you continue disrespecting me or our marriage. I will be happy to discuss any financial matters or Son but until you have ended your affair, everything else is off the table.
I am guessing she will ask where this came from and my response not mention of her OM simply I have grown up and became the man, the husband you wished I would be.
Beardown
It's my nature to edit! Sorry BD!
"W, despite everything that has and is happening, I love you and want to save our marriage. The past four months have been hell, but I also think that it is the best thing that has ever happened to me and our M. For me, this has been an opportunity to become a better man and to really learn what it takes to be successful in marriage. I have fought for you, our M, and our family. I have done everything in my power to learn about my shortcomings in our M and about how I can make sure that I am better, and that this never again happens. Whether it's with you or someone new. I want to be clear. I very much want it to be you. And I truly believe that we can have a GREAT M. Not average. Great. However, you are still with OM. Still seeing him, still talking to him, and still spending time with him. It is disrespectful to me, to our M, and to our family. I have tried to be patient and to give you time to seek your own happiness. I do that because I love you, I want you to be happy, and because, first and foremost, you are my friend. For now, I will continue to be patient and give you time. But I can no longer continue to be an active part of your life as long as there are any other men. I won't. So, I am asking that we now limit our contact to matters that pertain to our son and to our finances. Let me know if and when you decide that you want to truly work on our M. I would be open to discussing what that would mean at that time. I appreciate you understanding. H"
If she asks where this is coming from, simply tell her that it has been something that you have been thinking about and that you just won't continue to be disrespected. Be honest with her without being mushy, pressuring, or pursuing.
Oh... and this is the ONLY time that you tell her this, except for the boundary, which she may need to be reminded of many times.
And you enforce the boundary. The boundary will only serve you well if you enforce it. Don't do this unless you are ready to do that. YOu don't want to be the boy who cried wolf.
Thanks for the edit Denver I appreciate it! I am not ready to give this to her yet but feel it's only a matter of time. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to give me advice and read my sitch. It does make you feel like your not alone. I have been reading your sitch and have made it to February of 2011. Sometimes I laugh reading your thoughts especially how it feels like we are on a roller coaster. A roller coaster from hell. I love the Lighthouse story and plan plan on keeping that with me.
Thanks for the edit Denver I appreciate it! I am not ready to give this to her yet but feel it's only a matter of time. I can't thank you enough for taking the time to give me advice and read my sitch. It does make you feel like your not alone. I have been reading your sitch and have made it to February of 2011. Sometimes I laugh reading your thoughts especially how it feels like we are on a roller coaster. A roller coaster from hell. I love the Lighthouse story and plan plan on keeping that with me.
Oh hell! You're only up to Feb of 2011?? LOL!! That's only the beginning! ahhh... good times
You're welcome. I had so many people help me through my stuff. I don't know what I would have done without those people. I'm trying to pay it forward.
W called last night and asked if I wanted to go Trick or Treating with her and S. If it weren't for seeing her OM Saturday night I would have my hopes up so much more. It seems everyday she is calling, or asking me over for dinner. Question is, is she at a point where she is done with the M and is thinking we are just friends now? I don't want to be friends, I want my wife. This is exactly why I feel I need to give her my boundaries. I guess if W has OM over at the house one more time I HAVE TO set my boundaries. Just rambling here. At least I get to see my S 5 out of the 6 days I normally wouldn't get to see him. Happy Halloween everyone.
Hey Denver,
I think you must have been a writer or a poet in a previous post. You could write a best seller on your story and I know tons of people would read it!
You're welcome. I had so many people help me through my stuff. I don't know what I would have done without those people. I'm trying to pay it forward.
And that you are my friend. Glad to have you on board as well.
Beardown,
I envy you your determination. This type of boundaries is something I've been thinking about for some time now but I still think my sitch calls for something else at the moment.
If things start stagnating though, and it turns out W is just stringing me along, I think I might have to follow in your footsteps.
That edit from Denver sounds really good.
Cheers mate!
What do you think I should do? Email her the letter expressing my boundaries or try memorizing it and tell her face to face?
I have thought about my letter some more and think I am going to hand write the letter and give it to her on Sunday when I pick S up. W clearly needs to see my boundaries and that while the relationship is going on W I will not be there for her.
Arsene
I will follow up on your sitch. It would be nice to bounce things off each other while we are going through this!
Hey Denver,
I think you must have been a writer or a poet in a previous post. You could write a best seller on your story and I know tons of people would read it!
I've actually thought about it!
Thanks for the kind words. You too Arsene.
What do you think I should do? Email her the letter expressing my boundaries or try memorizing it and tell her face to face?
Ideally, you want to tell her face to face. Starsky would definitely advocate that.
I gave the speech multiple times... face to face, over the phone, text, email... LOL I don't think that the mode of communication matters all that much.
The important thing is that you are able to say what you need to say without interruption, and without becoming emotional.
If a letter is going to allow you to do that, then I'd say do that.
Accept the invite for tonight. IMO. Give her one more opportunity to see what she is giving up.
I went to S halloween parade at school and stood with FIL and SIL. W showed up and began showing pics of her halloween costume. I didn't ask to see them just stood behind them watching for the kids to walk by. Before I knew it she scooted behind her dad so she could show me the pics. It's amazing how this stuff works. I knew she was going to show me before she even walked over to show me the pictures. When she talked I looked right into her eyes all focus on her. When S walked through I said I will see you guys later I have to get back to work.
I have always taken S trick or treating so I will be there tonight. I plan on being happy and make conversation with FIL and S but not initiate any conversation with W. If W starts a conversation I will listen intently.
Arsene
My W has made it easy for me to set my boundaries. Having seen first hand what her and OM are up to makes me want to set these boundaries so I will no longer be hurt by her actions. Easier said than done but I have been dealing with this pain for so long and know that this is the only thing keeping me from truly being the husband I want to be. After Mondays visit I felt something different. I didn't feel like she had that spell on me anymore. I wasn't nervous, or scared, I was confident and finally realize after months of saying it but not believing it, that I can live happily without her. Do I want this marriage to work, more than anything in this world! But after years of neglecting my happiness I know now that I need to respect myself first. I realize tomorrow I may feel like a puddle again but as time goes on these days are growing less and less. Looking back I was confident when W and I first met and maybe that's the man she has been looking for.
W just called and asked if I wanted to meet her and S at a restaurant before we go trick or treating! WTF! I said I would go but seriously, why 4 out of the last days has she invited me to dinner? I may need to figure out if something happened with the OM before I give her my boundaries, what do you guys think? I could really use some help from a WAW if you are reading my sitch!
W just called and asked if I wanted to meet her and S at a restaurant before we go trick or treating! WTF! I said I would go but seriously, why 4 out of the last days has she invited me to dinner? I may need to figure out if something happened with the OM before I give her my boundaries, what do you guys think? I could really use some help from a WAW if you are reading my sitch!
Just a seasoned LBS speaking. It sounds like you got your mind back and you are feeling yourself for the right reasons. She may be trying to patch things up. But if OM is still in the picture, not sure how that's good!
I guess enjoy it if you want to and don't expect anything. You I read the post at 4:05PM and it's a great attitude to have. If you can keep that attitude you can't really lose.
If she is going to keep pursuing the thing with the OM at some point you are going to have to let him take on the FULL responsibilities of being with her. That means you are done with your emotional, financial, physical, time and other means of support.
I totally understand where you're coming from my friend. Hope things go well.
With regards to the delivery, I like the idea of a letter as she is likely to keep it and read it over and over again. Not that she would forget the words but I know if I was a WAS the letter would hit me more than the spoken word. There's a certain formality about it that makes it kind of official. JMO.
Besides, in my case she dumped me through email so...
. (and I did read it over and over again)
Harsh, how could someone use email to say they are done with a marriage?
Thought I would share my goals for 180's...
I want my wife to stay married to me - Check
She will start contacting me - Check
She will start asking me how I'm doing - Nope
We will get together for dinner - Check
She will start spending time with me - Check
As you can see this is why I go back and forth with the boundaries. I know it will need to be done but as you can see my short term goals have been met. Do I need a little more patience before I set my boundaries? 4 Weeks ago we weren't talking, presently we seem to have contact initiated by her everyday. Too bad the OM is such a strong presence because I would feel much better about all this contact.
Do I show her a little more patience or wait till I know they are together again before I give her the letter?
Now that contact seems almost everyday, my new short term goals need to be updated...
She will show interest in what I'm doing
She will say hello when she sees me and goodbye when I leave
She will have any time of physical contact with me
She will continue pursuing dinner with me
Obviously this will change if I give her the letter.
Thanks DaddyLongShanks
If she is going to keep pursuing the thing with the OM at some point you are going to have to let him take on the FULL responsibilities of being with her. That means you are done with your emotional, financial, physical, time and other means of support.
I couldn't agree more. That's what the letter is for. I am just trying to figure out when to give it to her. I am enjoying the time spent with her but it's fake right now. Only when the OM is gone and we begin seeing each other will it be real.
Thanks DaddyLongShanks
If she is going to keep pursuing the thing with the OM at some point you are going to have to let him take on the FULL responsibilities of being with her. That means you are done with your emotional, financial, physical, time and other means of support.
I couldn't agree more. That's what the letter is for. I am just trying to figure out when to give it to her. I am enjoying the time spent with her but it's fake right now. Only when the OM is gone and we begin seeing each other will it be real.
It might not be fake. You might be happy and she wants a piece of it. Just like you are another date. Your the date that she feels safe with, but your always backburnered while she's doing her real thing with the bad boys.
Thought I would share my goals for 180's...
I want my wife to stay married to me - Check
She will start contacting me - Check
She will start asking me how I'm doing - Nope
We will get together for dinner - Check
She will start spending time with me - Check
As you can see this is why I go back and forth with the boundaries. I know it will need to be done but as you can see my short term goals have been met. Do I need a little more patience before I set my boundaries? 4 Weeks ago we weren't talking, presently we seem to have contact initiated by her everyday. Too bad the OM is such a strong presence because I would feel much better about all this contact.
Do I show her a little more patience or wait till I know they are together again before I give her the letter?
I don't think that it is necessary for you to rush into anything. You will have to set the boundary EVEN IF she is done with OM. This should be any married person's boundary.
However, if you think that you should continue to monitor the situation as it is now, then hold off on doing anything drastic. The question is, what is your pain threshold? You can continue doing what you are doing now, with OM in the picture, forever if it isn't hurting you and if you think that you're making progress...
The question is, what is your pain threshold? You can continue doing what you are doing now, with OM in the picture, forever if it isn't hurting you and if you think that you're making progress...
Forever is the key word, If I don't set a boundary and act like this situation is not bothering me W will continue doing the fun things with OM and I will get the leftovers. Thanks for saying it like it is. Time to man up.
This morning W called me at texted me at 4:30am to ask if I could take S to daycare before school because she wasn't feeling well and didn't get much sleep last night. She asked if I would call when I woke up. I called at 5:30am and told W to have S ready at 6:10 and I would take him. Typically I would have been mad that W didn't thank me for stopping over but reading through Denver's journey I have begun to realize what unconditional love is. I always looked for validation for things I did, but realize that if you do an act of service for someone and you feel good about doing it inside, you don't need validation from anyone else!
Yup. DBing is a thankless job.
Update
W called S and at 10am this morning. She planned on taking S t an indoor waterpark today. To my surprise she asked if I wanted to go the waterpark with them. Significant because S did not bring it up this was her asking me if I wanted to come. We spent all day together as a family but I could sense the wall was very much still up. No touching and when I sat in the hot tub first she didn't sit next to me. She sat with enough distance so S could sit in the middle of us. All of this is important along with my S getting his hopes up because I saw him every day this week and it wasn't my week. I strongly believe she texted OM throughout the day and her phone whistled 3 times on the way home but she wouldn't respond. She just said yes (girlfriends name) hang on. I know it was him. We went to dinner afterward and I didn't give her much notice after she responded to the text. I thanked her for inviting me to the waterpark and she said thanks for dinner. All of our time spent together this week has been great, however it reinforces my thought that I have to set boundaries. Her actions around me speak clearly that she is physically with someone else. However he is chubby and I noticed her looking at my new 6 pack abs I gained since being on the greatest fat burning diet I have ever been on! The 4 Month Affair Diet. Lost the bit of belly fat I couldn't lose working out.
I am in a quandary...
I agree 100% with the boundaries that Denver so eloquently edited for me. I showed this to my best friends wife. Best friend cheated on her 2 years ago but they have since worked it out. She finally moved on with her life and told him she filed for divorce. He signed but before they got to the hearing he came back and wanted to make things work. She likes the letter but says it won't work and that she won't take it serious enough even if I stick to my guns. She feels W will call my bluff and I would never file for divorce. I have a feeling this is the only way my wife will stop the affair and give our marriage an honest second chance.She has had plenty of opportunities to sign the papers and get them filed. Even after finding out about the affair I was willing to give up the house, not go after anything including her 401k and she still couldn't do it. I am just so confused. I don't want to leave 1 stone unturned in my effort to resurrect this marriage but Denver even you were ready to file and be done before your wife finally came home, same with my best friend. Maybe it's my impatience that feels I should go this route even though my da%$ heart just wants to try to keep these last two weeks going for awhile. Maybe she will screw up and have him spend the night at her house this week as I will have S this week. That would solve my dilemma of staying status quo!
side note: I did test the water to see if she have physical contact with me and no dice. Before we left for the waterpark we were sitting on the couch watching TV. We decided to leave and I got up first.She was sitting up so I extended my hand to help give her a boost like we have done a million times before but she never reached for my hand and almost directed her chest right into my open hand LOL. I moved it before their was contact but I got my answer I was looking for. Seems physical contact is not going to happen anytime soon. This will be tough because as I have read 5LL's physical touch s one of my languages. Small touches, hugs, anything to small to show their love I guess. Sorry if this is rambling on just journaling and trying to make some sense of all of this in my head.
Hey Bear,
I know how you feel mate. I understand what you're going through as I was going through it as well. It's just that what looks like good times might just be our Ws having their cake and eating it. They have the pleasure of the family atmosphere when they feel like it, our company if they choose to but then they go back to OM for the rest. I was going to go that road, thinking I was used to it and could last but then she got too close and it really hurt when I tested the water and there was no progress.
What I'm doing now is still not easy as it is so counter intuitive and feels like a major step back but I hope that it's for the best in the long run as it might allow me to finally detach.
Good luck to you mate.
She likes the letter but says it won't work and that she won't take it serious enough even if I stick to my guns. She feels W will call my bluff and I would never file for divorce. ....
but Denver even you were ready to file and be done before your wife finally came home, same with my best friend. Maybe it's my impatience that feels I should go this route even though my da%$ heart just wants to try to keep these last two weeks going for awhile.
I'm not suggesting that your statement to your W about the boundary be meant to communicate anything other than, 'I will not be in your life as long as any OM is." It isn't meant to say, 'I'm going to D you if you don't stop the A.'
You are telling her to go do her thing. Live her life. Follow her path. BUT, without you. That doesn't mean that you are going to file for a D in a week, 2 weeks, even 6 months, if she doesn't end the A. THAT IS NOT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING RIGHT NOW.
So there is no bluff to call. You are simply removing yourself from the equation.
That's it. Nothing more.
Yes. Eventually I did reach a point where I was DONE. A point where even having and enforcing my boundary was not enough for me. I was indeed prepared to file for a D. It took a very long time to get to that point though BD. The thing is, you should not even mention a D until you are SURE that you are prepared and willing to follow through. Where it is not a tactic to get her to end the A. Where it is truly what you are ready to do.
THAT ^^ is territory where you risk having your bluff called (if it is one).
I'm saying that you need to try setting and enforcing a boundary and letting things be for a while. To let your W do what she needs to do to figure out what she wants for her life. She doesn't want to end her A, but she obviously isn't rushing to file for a D. The problem is that you are letting her straddle the fence. And as long as she is COMFORTABLE, she won't feel the need to pick one side or the other.
Removing one side of the fence, ie, you, may be what she needs to BEGIN thinking about what she really wants.
Now that contact seems almost everyday, my new short term goals need to be updated...
She will show interest in what I'm doing
She will say hello when she sees me and goodbye when I leave
She will have any time of physical contact with me
She will continue pursuing dinner with me
Obviously this will change if I give her the letter.
Let your goals dictate your actions, not your actions dictate your goals. When you are accepting advice from others, make sure they are responding to what your goals are, not just giving you advice about what they think you should do.
W had the OM over at the house again last night. I did not call her out on it but not doing well today. I know it's time for action but really struggling right now with what to do. I really like the letter and it will give me space to regain strength. Not sure how much strength I have left to stay the course. When we were together this past week it was sterile and their was clearly a boundary. I just wasn't feeling it on her end just like the past year. Then OM shows up again last night. I hate to say this after 5 months of hard work but I am beginning lose hope and am thinking about asking her for the D papers. W hasn't helped me with any bills and am guessing she will not be making the mortgage payment for December. Maybe I give her the letter, ask for a check for the credit card bills I paid and tell her if she doesn't pay the mortgage I will be moving back in. Or simply ask for the divorce and tell her she has one week to find a realtor or I will find one. It's a difficult decision, my heart says letter, my head says divorce and move on, I deserve to be happy. She checked out in June 2011 when she had an EA and now this. I know we all need to have patience but right now I am struggling to find it. I have learned not to make quick decisions and will give myself a few days to figure out my next step.
Have you talked to a L yet about her non-contributions?
Not yet. I have been biting the bullet in hopes of reconciliation but I need to protect myself and S. We were going to file joint petition but I am beginning to think I might need a L for protection. I can't live in a buddies basement, it's not fair to me or to S but can't afford a place on my own paying all the debt on my own.
Just don't rush into any decisions. Obviously, I can't tell you what to do here. It has to come from within.
Yeah, take your time mate. If in doubt, do nothing for now. The answer will come to you. Mind you, I think you should protect your finances. I don't think it should be up to you to pay for her credit cards at this point, and as you said, if you are paying the full mortgage, you might as well live in the house.
Yep. Get the L's take on things.