I hit 100 on my third thread so I'm starting #4. I've been here seven months, lurking for nine. I've been married 18 years, have two teenage boys, and my H seems to be patiently waiting for a year to pass so he can file for D. He doesn't love me and is not attracted to me, he said, and it won't change. In nine months it hasn't. He's shown no interest in participating in MC other than showing up occasionally. He seems exceptionally resistant to showing any feelings other than anger.
We've made so many changes in how we talk to each other, and I've tried to do so many things differently that had annoyed him, so I see a lot less anger. Just pleasant or absent. He has spoken of our impending D and about friends' D's in a manner you'd talk about getting a bank account. He seems mystified when he hears about an un-amicable D - why don't they get along? Why would they fight over custody? Those were some of his comments when I made arrangements to see a friend this weekend in Philly, who has a difficult relationship with her ex over their 4yo son. I think H sees this as simply a financial transaction, and the less he has to witness or deal with emotions the happier he is about it.
I've been stumbling on my GALs. Trying to get exercise but finding myself too busy. Trying to look my best but holding off on washing my hair since I'm sure I'll make it to the gym, and then I don't. Trying to get caught up at work so I'm not bringing my stress home, but then visiting DB - yeah like now. But on the other side of the coin, I'm reasonably happy, taking A/D to help me stay optimistic and calm, enjoying good times and conversations with my S14 and my S11. Did 3 months of Bikram yoga. Went on a cruise, a ski trip, a girls' weekend locally, and now a girls' weekend in Phila. I stopped contacting H for anything other than necessary logistical issues, for the most part, whether I'm in town or away. H has gone on three long trips out of the country and is about to go for a fourth time, and I've made enjoyable use of the time without him. All in all, I think my gal is OK.
I grasped onto the thought, as soon as I found it here, that in a few years I will be happy in my life, with or without H. I'll be a stronger, more capable person, more affectionate and a better communicator. I'll have fun hobbies, look good, enjoy a great relationship with my kids. Perhaps I'll have a great relationship with my H or someone new by then. I focus on that distant point and how to get there.
The situation with my H seems to be making no headway. Partly that's because he's still sleeping in our bed and we're doing everything as a family as usual. I'm still cooking and shopping for him, and he's still doing my laundry. We talk about who's taking which kid to which function and who's going to make a grocery run. There's no touching at all - it's been since mid-February when H got a V, after his recovery period the bomb hit so I've been going without for a very long time. I don't know if he has.
I've gotten lots of valuable help from books including Family Communication, DB, and 5LL. Just got Hold me Tight, seven conversations for a lifetime of love by Dr. Sue johnson and hope to read that this weekend.
S14 and I went out to buy him some shorts at Plato's Closet (it's a surprising new development that he is willing to try a second hand piece of clothing, but he's paid for stuff at the mall and can't believe what his friends are spending) and then we had to go fix my iphone. I was relying on his help and advice, which I think made him feel grownup. We went together and found that it would be best for me to go ahead and get an iphone 4S. Turns out I couldn't add it to our plan without calling H to ask him to make me an authorized person on the account. While I'm trying to reach H, the sales guy is rambling about how sorry he is for the inconvenience, it's just some people are estranged and you wouldn't believe it but etc etc. Come to find out H is not willing to add me as an authorized user, he's going to drive 20 minutes to meet us at the store and take care of it. Sales guy's eyebrows went up but I acted like it was absolutely the most normal thing in the world. (I happen to know H has issues about comingling our phones and extending the contract because he wants a clean break when we split. However, he decided this new phone was ok because he could just turn the whole account over to me when we split and he'll start a new one.) This interaction was a little embarrassing to me and a little poke in the eye about my sitch, but a relatively minor thing. iPhone 4S is way cool!
So, I'm wrapping up some necessary work and hitting the road for Phila soon, to hear all the stories about how rotten my friend's ex is and how poorly they get along. And hopefully talk about other stuff too. We'll get manicures and cook and go to the orchid show. I'm psyched.
Have a great weekend everyone!
Here are links to my old threads:
Hoping Friends Can Return to LoversHoping 2Hoping 3
Oh yeah, I left out the elephant in the room. H and I have never discussed this but it retrospect we had a classic SSM and I believe that's at the root of the problem, not the things he cited (doesn't like how the kids are turning out, I don't listen to him, I do too much volunteer work). I think he became LD, my resentment grew, then I became LD, his resentment grew, and now he feels his attraction to me is permanently switched off. Before he divorces me we will talk about that. It's a very hard topic for me to bring up, and even harder for him. I can put my pride down and being extremely vulnerable, and for him, well, it's my belief that he'd rather get a D and start over than even have a conversation about why we had trouble ML.
Beautiful written posts, Ad. As you know I think we are in very similar boats.
Your last line especially, hits home.
(((Ad))). I am also in the same boat, and we are just now beginning to talk about our SSM in therapy. I also think it's at the heart of our issues, and my H would also say that his attraction for me is "switched off." Since you hesitate to talk about it, maybe getting the conversation started would be a 180 that might jolt your H out of apathy? It's SUCH a sensitive topic, especially for men. Glad you are GALing and doing so well.
Mimi
Thanks Adinva, I am so frustrated for you in this sitch -- it's maddening. Honestly I have wished I could "switch off" attraction for W because being the HD partner is so difficult. Asking for physical affection requires major vulnerability and being rejected when you're there is so painful. I guess I'm glad I haven't gone there as it doesn't seem to turn out well.
Keep journaling, we're here for you -- wish I could do more to help.
Accuray
Hi Adinva,
SSM? It is not in the abbrevation list here.
Sounds like you are doing the right things. You'd be surprised how long - and this could be good or bad - a situation like yours can continue. I wonder if your H really will so 'factually' go through with a D. I think the reality and all that D entails are a cold shower for all involved.
Keep posting - a good weekend to you - LL
Thanks Lucky, nice to see you in my thread!
I appreciate what you're saying. As someone used to suppressing my needs since childhood (something I only just learned about myself), I really could go on till death do us part in this scenario. That's sad though.
I'm learning to realize what my feelings are and then make a choice. I can still choose what I have, and I do choose that right now, but I'm not trapped in it. I may decide it's not enough, what he's bringing to the table.
I recently opened a difficult convo with H, regarding what he really intended about MC. I held my cool, I didn't argue, and I accepted what he was saying as his point of view. It felt good. What he said didn't feel good, but it was nice that one of us could pull our head out of the sand and do a reality check. No one spontaneously combusted. It gives me hope that the SSM talk is coming in the next three months (ie, before his "required year of separation" is up).
Luke, SSM is sex-starved marriage. It refers to any marriage in which one partner desires to ML more than the other partner.
I used to be sad when I finished a whole pack of a month's birth control pills and realized we hadn't ML during that month. Later on it was more me that didn't feel like it, but I'm sure H could have felt rejected, demasculated (is that a word?), and resentful. He was way too polite or reticent, or macho, to bring it up, and may too afraid that my answer why I didn't seem to want to ML might reflect back on him.
At the very end I was desperate to try something, anything, to reconnect, so I was starting to show him things I needed to feel in the mood. A certain type of kiss (I was really nice about it but I was trying to tell him to stop engulfing my entire face, which he had evolved into recently), music on so my pubescent sons wouldn't hear us and make me feel inhibited. That these little things put the final bricks in the wall will give you an indication of how low his tolerance was for any kind of "feedback." Trust me, I was soooooo diplomatic.
That's a long answer to a short question.
this post resonated with me so much, Ad. i dont have any kids, and my H and i haven't been married for as long as you two have, but just wanted to chime in and say that you're in my thoughts. i've been db'ing to the best of my ability (which still leaves a lot to be desired) and still don't seem to be making headway in terms of changing h's mind about D. trying so hard to see the forest from the trees and reminding myself that no matter what happens, a year or two from now, i'll be happy in my life.
Grrrr Adinva. Although our sitches are quite different, I can sympathize with your feelings (I think). It's so frustrating.
How do you plan to have the SSM discussion and why? What are you looking for from it? What kind of closure will it give you? Can it really have a satisfying conclusion?
I'm in no way saying "don't do it", I'm interested in why it's so important to you to have that talk in particular.
Accuray
Advina - you wrote so much of what I am feeling. I feel like you I have changed so much about how I respond and how I behave. All my H complaints I have changed. But the truth is all his complaints about my behavior is not what this is about. Its about the sex and my H has barely acknowledged that. I want to hear him say it out loud.
I just want it all to be on the table before its over.
I too think that a large part of our sitches was the lack of sex. I know that in my M, I could take it or leave it- which made H feel rejected and develop a self-esteem issue. But what I've come to learn, is that all of the other complaints (the anger, the fighting, the lack of affection) fed into a SSM. I have worked really hard to fix all of the other complaints (and I know you have too) but I haven't been able to touch the issue of sex.
I can understand why you might want to have that conversation with him. I know that I would want to explore how all of the new changes could effect the SSM positively.
Like bklyn said: "I just want it all to be on the table before its over."
I don't think any of us want to see our M end without no-stone-left-unturned.
I commend you for being brave enough to approach the topic with your H, I'll pray that some positives can come from it.
Yep, you're right - that's what my answer to Accuray was going to be. It's very hard to have a conversation about why you weren't having sex, it can end up with big hurt for one or both of you that can impact you to your very core if you let it. I believe it's the elephant in the room and I don't want to leave the stone unturned.
What I expect from it? I want H to know that subject is open for discussion and that I believe it's the biggest factor in why we're divorcing, even if he never brought it up as a reason. I want him to know how I felt and what I wished I/we had done differently. It might get him thinking we're salvageable, but probably not.
It's mostly for me. I don't want to walk away from my kids' dad having been afraid to bring up possibly the most important issue causing the breakup. I want to have that courage and I want to make my point. My point is this happens to a lot of people and I knew it was happening and wanted to get help.
How does that discussion go? Have you thought through what his responses might be? I find it very odd that he never brought it up -- why do you think that is? IMO that's the first place many men will go in terms of complaints. I did have the SSM discussion with W -- I actually had her read the SSM book which is the only one that she read at my request. That was effective at getting the dialog going, but I don't see that being an option for you, is it?
Do you also feel the need to have an OW discussion, or are you still in a position where you don't worry if OW is there or not?
Accuray
Hey Advina,
No idea if the SSM convo is a good idea or not. You present yourself as a very intelligent person and I trust you will know what is right to do.
You may know this as well, but I'll mention it anyway if for no other reason but a reminder. I can't speak for your H, of course, but if you go into the SSM conversation, just remember, the act and/or frequency of sex can be (should be) a much deeper experience than just physical release. Sometimes I think guys get a bad rap for wanting sex for the sake of sex.
Sex can represent, acceptance, love, respect and connectedness to a man. Just having sex more often isn't a solution.
IMHO, if a man is just looking to get laid more often, then maybe he's got an issue of not feeling worthy himself of that deeper level sex can provide in a M. And maybe, your H isn't even able to take himself that deep yet to understand it for himself so he may not even be able to put it into words. You mentioned earlier that the SSM was partially driven by him early on is why I say this.
Again, I may be off base from your sitch and you may have covered this and I missed it. So take it for what its worth.
You are a very intelligent and capable person so whatever you decide to do, I'm certain you'll handle it well. Good luck.
It's good that you guys are challenging my thinking a bit. I need to clarify what is it that I feel is so important to say, and what would be my purpose in saying it.
I'd like to let him know that I'm sorry for the hurt I caused. I allowed my past and our difficulty in communicating to become a wall between us. I knew it was there and always felt it was fixable when the time came, when the kids got older and we had more time together, I thought I'd get therapy and we'd fix things. I'm sorry for our marriage and our family that I didn't try harder to understand him. I'd like him to know that I'm learning that even if he wasn't saying anything about it, the rejection of sex probably made him feel bad and so I'm sorry about that.
Purpose in saying it? To demonstrate that not even that subject is off limits, that I am genuinely trying to understand things from his perspective, and that I see I had not been doing that before. That if fear and shame are making it look easier to just move on, I want to be on record that I'm willing to face them and work through them - the door's open if he wants to come through it. To prove to myself that I left no stone unturned. To prove to him that I can have a conversation with him where I don't argue and justify but listen and understand, even on such a potentially hurtful topic. And because, if that's what he's leaving me for and he's letting it go unsaid, I want him to have the opportunity to see my willingness to learn and change.
That's why I feel it is important to have the OW discussion too. If there is someone else, then H will have a block that will prohibit such a caring, soul bearing admission and dialog to have an honest chance of going anywhere.
If OW is involved, H will either immediately duck, cover and flee when the topic is introduced, or will be only too happy to agree that it's all your fault and you made him act this way.
What I fear for you is that you're dealing with a WAH, you don't fully understand what's going on with him. He may say things that you accept and internalize and then regret and beat yourself up for years when what he says is quite frankly B.S.
How about instead of that discussion, you convince yourself that the SSM was a mutual problem that neither of you stepped up to address. Once things started to go sideways, you stepped up and H wouldn't meet you half way.
Why is he worthy of any more soul baring from you if he's not willing to make the slightest effort?
If that conversation goes well, it may give you some degree of peace, but I think it's much more likely to go poorly and leave you feeling worse. Don't let him take any more from you.
Accuray
That's why I feel it is important to have the OW discussion too. If there is someone else, then H will have a block that will prohibit such a caring, soul bearing admission and dialog to have an honest chance of going anywhere.
Well, there are other things that can prohibit the dialog from going anywhere too, such as H's fear of intimacy and avoidance of conflict. Presence or absence of an OW is a symptom, not a cause, in my opinion. Heal the marriage, OW goes away. I don't believe I have a leg to stand on right now to demand that he drop OW if he wants to be with me - he's already made his choice clear. So, any way I look at it, I don't see harm or help in discussing the presence or absence of an OW. I think that's a R conversation that's best avoided. BUT - I don't feel afraid to bring it up or afraid of what I'd hear. My best guess is I'll hear "there is no OW I just don't love you, why don't you get that?" IE, reinforcing his stinkin thinkin.
If OW is involved, H will either immediately duck, cover and flee when the topic is introduced, or will be only too happy to agree that it's all your fault and you made him act this way.
To which I'll say, as I say to you, I never said it was all my fault. I don't have any control over you and what you think/feel/do. I'm just regretful of and owning my role. And certainly not beating myself up for not having had the tools to create better intimacy. I'm just sorry that I didn't and I'm open to learning them now.
What I fear for you is that you're dealing with a WAH, you don't fully understand what's going on with him. He may say things that you accept and internalize and then regret and beat yourself up for years when what he says is quite frankly B.S.
Thanks - I love having you in my corner! But I'm a tough birdie. I'm taking from him things that I considered, analyzed, and decided were RIGHT. There's a filter in place. I accept my strengths and weaknesses and think I'm a terrific wife and mother even if I did land here.
How about instead of that discussion, you convince yourself that the SSM was a mutual problem that neither of you stepped up to address. Once things started to go sideways, you stepped up and H wouldn't meet you half way.
Why is he worthy of any more soul baring from you if he's not willing to make the slightest effort?
It's not a matter of his worthiness; I'm fighting for my family with every tool I've got at my disposal (they're all very soft, understanding, emotional tools, but they're the best tools I've found). And I'm fighting for it because I am worth it. I didn't suck at being a partner then, I don't suck at it now, and I'm the best shot he's got at a happy lifelong family and marriage. If he never comes to the table, well, I tried and I'll move on.
If that conversation goes well, it may give you some degree of peace, but I think it's much more likely to go poorly and leave you feeling worse. Don't let him take any more from you.
Accuray
If it goes poorly I'll take full responsibility for choosing to open it and for not finding the words to do justice to my honest thoughts and sincere feelings. I can't control what he says or doesn't say so I won't feel bad about that.
Maybe I'll throw in the OW talk as a practice run.
Journaling about my family's first family counseling session, which was yesterday. It was so interesting, and I was so grateful to have such a family that would be able to participate in something like this. I KNOW when I was a kid I would have put up a much bigger resistance and acted like a complete jerk. So here's how it went:
Beautiful day out, promised S14 he could play outside until I heard back re the exact meeting time, because there had been some mixed communication and I was waiting for a call-back from T.
S14 only got to play for 1/2 hour so he's bummed/pissed, and needs me to drop off his friend on the way, so now I'm running late and a bit anxious. S11 is with us, excited about finally getting to go to this appointment.
S14 is mad because it's all S11's fault that we have to go to this and interrupt his fun. I tell him it's not S11's fault or anyone's fault, it's my and Daddy's decision to do this so we can communicate better and respect one another better. S14 expresses great doubt that Dad is in on this really. I assure S14 that Dad wanted this appointment too just like me.
We get there 10 minutes late and H is waiting in the lobby. I was briefly amused that he didn't just go in and start talking with T, but also glad because we'd probably get the full hour now.
We sat in our chairs and looked all around at each other, and T said, so, tell me why you're here today. After I waited for anyone else to talk I went ahead and said we're here to learn to communicate respectfully as a family when there's something important we need to talk about, so everyone feels heard. S14 says that's not what I thought we were here for. T asks H and H says very emphatically we're here because S14 is bullying S11, S11 isn't listening, in fact neither of them are listening when we're trying to stop them from doing something.
Over the course of the hour we then each got turns to talk, each of us was "the bad guy" about something, each contributed thoughts or ideas. It was very cool to me. H got to say that he felt a 10 out of 10 that teasing someone younger or otherwise not your peer was bullying and wrong. H got to hear that he raises his voice and may need to agree on something different to be more effective when really trying to get serious attention.
S14 got to hear - and agreed - that teasing and joking can be great, it's a great skill, but must come with judgment about when it is appropriate. Must stop when the line is crossed - needs our help in the family to learn where that line is. He gets away with it with teachers because he's charming, but he heard that as adults, or even as a high schooler, there will be much less tolerance and he's going to have to learn when and where it's OK.
S11 got to talk about how he feels when S14 teases him. We all talked about whether continued teasing will "toughen him up" or actually harm him. S14 would like him to toughen up, and T invited him to help S11 learn to be less sensitive by using feedback in words but stopping the teasing at the point that S11 is getting upset.
I got to talk about my frustration when they're at each other and I have to repeatedly try to get their attention to stop them, and then S14 mimics me to continue the teasing and joking. I said I needed a way to let them know when I'm really serious and need them to hear me. S14 said Mom you're always joking - we can't tell when you're serious because you start laughing. That was surprising to me - I wouldn't have said that about myself. But he is irresistably funny and I love him so. So I learned I need to be more firm, quiet and make eye contact, or hold his face in my hands and no laughing when I really need to get his attention. Or call him into another room to discuss his behavior.
We all agreed that we care about each other. Of course it was a joke - T had convoluted her sentence so it came out something like would you not say that you don't care about each other? Dead silence... Finally S14 says, uh, I'm not sure how to answer that? No? and everyone started laughing because it was a double negative. So S14 said he cared. I said I would not say that I don't care. Our family breaks tension by laughing, and having grown up in a tense family I think it's wonderful.
We all agreed that we'd try having meetings that anyone can call, that involve all of us, and we'll try working out a conflict in that way. Even a kid can call one about a parent.
So, the kids went home with H and I wish I was a fly in their car. At home later, I told S14 how very proud I was of him that he had such poise and confidence to participate in that session so well. He said it seemed pointless to him. I said that's OK it was very important to me and I appreciated it.
S11 called about four family meetings from 7 to 9pm, every time something S14 did annoyed him. I think he feels a lot more empowered.
We'll see if this sticks, but I loved that H came to back me up in this and he did great.
None of this has anything to do with DB but it made me happy.
Today when H got home I was just taking meatloaf out of the oven and offered him some, and he ate and mentioned he was going to the gym (I'm adding all of this so it doesn't look like I came running out of the house nagging about counseling as he drove up
) and then I told him how much I appreciated him being there yesterday and mentioned how S14 hadn't believed that H was really in on the whole idea of it. H talked to S11 a little about it. Not beating a dead horse, but I thanked him.
But we're still probably getting divorced.
Hey, glad the session went well. I hope you see positive changes from it.
Sounds like you gave some good affirmations to your H about his part which is good as well. Sorry you still feel the D is on.
Just remember that none of us can truly predict the future and if you have any hope, then hope still exists.
Today when H got home I was just taking meatloaf out of the oven and offered him some, and he ate and mentioned he was going to the gym (I'm adding all of this so it doesn't look like I came running out of the house nagging about counseling as he drove up
) and then I told him how much I appreciated him being there yesterday and mentioned how S14 hadn't believed that H was really in on the whole idea of it. H talked to S11 a little about it. Not beating a dead horse, but I thanked him.
But we're still probably getting divorced.
Right, so you just had cue cards prepared? How would you have felt if H had said: "I really appreciate you bothering to go to family C. S14 didn't think you could be bothered. So, it was really great you were there. I'm so proud of you for being a half-decent mother for once."
Because, the message you couldn't wait to zap H with was pretty similar.
The question I have is: When you get ammunition against H, why do you feel so compelled to use it while pretending you aren't?
That's an interesting take on it OT!
Communication is so difficult because the message you're trying to send is morphed by the recipient's thoughts and beliefs and experiences. H could very well have heard that as a put down instead of an affirmation.
That could be why DB seems to promote keeping a lot of your words to yourself.
It's a dilemma that to communicate I feel like I need some latitude. I need to be able to make a mistake and have someone give me feedback that my message was misinterpreted, so I have a chance to clarify. That's what a dialog is. I feel with H, and in the situation as you reframed it, trying to say something is like catapulting my message over a fort wall - you get one chance, no do overs, no clarifications.
So, thinking about your question (obviously my first reaction is what?! no I don't!). Hmm. What I get ammunition against H, why do I feel compelled to use it while pretending I'm not.
- ammunition: when my worldview doesn't match his, I assume I'm right. I very much thought this appointment was important. He had said it was to him too. My ammunition was that H has been adamantly avoiding counseling in our past when it could have helped us and in our present when he says it is pointless. So I suppose I was firing off a shot of resentment that he won't give us the same fighting chance he's willing to give the kids. Am I close OT?
- why I feel compelled to use it. Hmm. Well, I didn't recognize it before it came out. I still thought I was praising him. I was hoping the positive feedback would give him a good feeling about the next appointment in two weeks. I was hoping the reference to S14 would show him that our teen has already some of the resistance and skepticism about seeing a counselor H and I both believe he would benefit from. Its the macho attitude so valued in our home and by my H. I'm proud of H that he's being a role model for S14 to be open to such help. No one was that role model for H.
- why I would pretend I'm not? Passive aggressiveness is a problem for me, as for H. Since we're not talking much it's hard to know if I'm improving only in my mind or if I can apply my new insight in action too. I'm finding that I still need practice, huh?
So OT, help me rewrite that scene. As equally decent parents was this not an occasion for thanks at all? Was there anything that could have been said about it? Perhaps instead of praising his "showing up" I could have praised specifically how well I thought he stated his feeling about bullying - it really seemed like it got through to S14 how important this was. Would that have been better?
This was very instructive for me, too.
I was raised in an environment where things often had double meanings. Giving a compliment while twisting the knife is in my DNA.
I look forward to more.
Right, so you just had cue cards prepared? How would you have felt if H had said: "I really appreciate you bothering to go to family C. S14 didn't think you could be bothered. So, it was really great you were there. I'm so proud of you for being a half-decent mother for once."
Because, the message you couldn't wait to zap H with was pretty similar.
The question I have is: When you get ammunition against H, why do you feel so compelled to use it while pretending you aren't?
Wow! This really hit me between the eyes. I know I have done this, and even more so recently upon finding out about my H's affair (and knowing things he doesn't think I know). Definitely will be thinking about this today.
OT, would love for you to respond again. Am I getting your point?
Sure, "I really appreciated the way you handled the bullying issue, it helped me understand how to talk about it and I think it will have a big effect on S."
The ammunition I was thinking of was the bit about S not thinking H would come. My guess is that, in addition to distress of various sorts, you felt a wee bit of satisfaction when S made the commend and that you shared S's comment with H to try to teach him a lesson/pull a told-you-so.
At this point probably best to leave it alone.
This was very instructive for me, too.
I was raised in an environment where things often had double meanings. Giving a compliment while twisting the knife is in my DNA.
I look forward to more.
Yes, La Bug! ME TOO!
Nicely put OT. Your version sounded respectful without false praise.
I took your comment the extra mile because thanking someone for a normal act of parenting that they may have been absent from previously is a sort of back handed compliment, and you were right in pointing it out.
The thing with S14's comment could be perceived as not very nice of me, or perceived as a useful observation of how S14 may be starting to see manliness and emotion as mutually exclusive because that is how H has acted. It is quite a surprise to me that H has set foot in a therapist's office this year but unfortunately it only could happen after he decided he was done. I would love to teach my boys it's ok to work on relationships and they can get better. But in our short conversation, that's not what came across, as OT noted.
Thanks for the help OT! It's very hard for me to bare myself to criticism but I find each time I can grow a little bit from it. Was nice of you to slap me around some.
Adinva
It's very hard for me to bare myself to criticism but I find each time I can grow a little bit from it. Was nice of you to slap me around some.
Adinva - I think you are actually a very open and brave person. You constantly show a willingness to listen and to change and improve.
You are an inspiration for me. :-)
KG thank you so much for your kind words!
Adinva - I think you are actually a very open and brave person. You constantly show a willingness to listen and to change and improve.
You are an inspiration for me. :-)
And to me :-)
You two are both amazing. I learn so much in this forum. Thanks Autumn.
Just journaling today. Want to get my weekend on record and deal with some negative thoughts that are keeping me down.
This weekend H was not around much. I watched the third movie in the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo series Friday night while H was out to see his friend. (Same friend I always talk about. H basically has only one local friend he hangs out with, a friend since high school, the one with the 27yo girlfriend.) H returned home before the end of it but I was drifting in and out of sleep at that point.
Saturday I took a long morning walk and then took S11 to climbing team practice till noon. H had been talking about wanting to go to Glory Days so I texted him would it be lunch or supper but got no response. Since S11 was hungry I called H to get an answer and he said it would be for supper, so I took S11 to get a sub.
S11 and S14 had been asking for months to go to the animal shelter to see about getting a second dog, so I wanted to be available to do that with them this weekend. I had told them we needed to discuss it with H and we did a couple of different times. He said it was all right, and no puppies. He and S14 would like to run with a dog, and ours is getting too old to go more than about half their run. We talked about dog qualities to look for, housebroken, smart, no puppy, etc. H seems to be on board.
I thought about asking him about how he's see the new dog fitting in with our divorce, but I decided not to (pursue, temperature check) because it really doesn't matter to me. I'd love to keep a second dog, and I'd be ok if H really wanted to take second dog, and I'd be open to most other reasonable options, so no purpose in bringing it up.
Saturday the boys weren't into it - S14 wanted to go sock shopping with dad, S11 had a headache. So I took the dog on a huge long walk all around the neighborhood trails for some exercise, GAL, and to enjoy a beautiful day. Happy pup, happy mom.
Also got in an hour on the stepper at the gym - I'm struggling to get back to the shape I was in last summer. Yeah 500 calories burned!
Saturday evening I took S11 to a birthday party. Our friends from Pittsburgh arrived at 7, driving a car up from Florida and meeting us for dinner. We all and S14 went to Glory Days. I got the middle seat in the back of the car squished next to H. Amazingly, he didn't spontaneously combust. He seemed relaxed.
We had a very nice time out - H talked cars and property taxes with the husband of the couple and I talked Yellowstone and wine with the wife. They are an extremely happy affectionate couple about 10 years older than us, both on their second marriage - I think they re-met at their high school reunion. Both went to high school with H's older brother.
I think they must know about our sitch, because they always send cards for our anniversary and this year they did not. But they haven't said anything.
The wife's dad recently passed away, and so when we were apart from the others I told her I wanted to say in person how sorry I was for her loss, and gave her a hug. It was an intentional 180 for me, usually I'm uncomfortable with death and emotion and afraid to say the wrong thing, better to avoid the topic... I don't want to be like that anymore.
When we got home, H announced he was going to see friend and left. I had season 1 of Arrested Development so I watched about 4 or 5 episodes and started falling asleep. I don't think I was awake when H got home.
Sunday, I asked H what his plans were for the day. S14's lacrosse tournament had originally been blocked off for 1-7pm but the final schedule had him on from 3:15. He wanted to go early to see some of the other games, and I wanted to take them to the animal shelter. S14 said he'd skip it today and S11 really really wanted to go, so I set up a ride to lacrosse for S14. H had said in the morning "I've got a job for S14, putting a bike together for Kathy. If he doesn't want the job I'll do it." Who's Kathy? Apparently I've met her? She's from his work, and she was at some fundraiser H's friend coordinated. I thought I remembered who she was. Someone H was trying to help get back into the social scene following her divorce, so he recommended her to go to this fundraiser martini event thing. I'm not sure I remember her exactly but I think I do. Anyway, whatever. She's had this bike unassembled for a year, and H told her he'd come over and do it for her.
I reminded H of the lacrosse. H said it would take about an hour to do the bike, minimimum, so we agreed S14 couldn't do it. H took off to do it. (I'm thinking this is another helpless kitten rescue for H. Can a grown woman put together her own bike or take it to a pro? I'm a bit resentful that he takes away from a family weekend to do a chore for a damsel in distress. By the way, it has been suggested to me on this forum that I should try being needy like that so he can feel manly helping me...but in all of our marriage I have noticed that he likes to help helpless others but he is not attracted to neediness in me - he is annoyed that I need help with car maintenance, if I have a technical issue he has been impatient or condescending about it. I'm strong and independent generally, and he doesn't respond well if I appear needy. (Or didn't anyway...I don't generally find myself in such situations with him anymore.)
So H seems to have forgotten about the lacrosse tournament. I called him when it was time to go, because I had run a little close with S11 at the animal shelter and thought maybe he left without me to be on time. No answer on the cell phone. So I went on ahead and got to the lax. About halfway through the first game H calls - "did you call me?" and I said yeah was checking to see if we were going together to lax still, but since I didn't reach you I went ahead to the field. H said "I was going to go to Friend's but maybe I'll stop by for some of the tournament."
A while later H turns up, sits a row below me on the bleachers, and we talk a little bit. The sun's in his eyes so he decides to go stand in the shade.
S14's team plays on the opposite field next game, so we switch around on the bleachers and H rejoins me and the other moms and chit chats with us all a little during the game. After the game I go say hi to S14 and suggest to H to take him since neither of them had dinner yet and I had a bratwurst at the field. On the way to the parking H goes hey that sure looks like Sonja. And I say "yeah, it is. Her son's on S14's team this season." And H is off. Sonja's really pretty - we met her when S14 and her son had soccer together at age 5 or 6, and again when they were on swim team together at age 7 or 8. She's kind of stand-offish - I've never really been able to connect with her. But men love her - she's got that attitude like she's too good to talk to you. And she's got an amazing body for a 30-something mom of 4 (one of the only ones who wears a bikini at the pool). Yesterday she had on skinny lo-rise white capris and a low scoop neck tight t-shirt.
So, as I've noticed is a trend, H does pay a lot more attention to the attractive women around, and he does like big boobs on a skinny woman. I guess what I'd tell someone else who's fixating on something like this and starting to feel inadequate is: get back in your own sandbox and take good care of yourself.
Back to the shelter. S11 and I got there, talked a while with the volunteers to get a feel for what was available and it came up that we had fostered "M" before and knew his owners had returned him last year due to divorce. Well, turns out "M" is still there so we take him out for a walk. He's a sweetheart. Almost exactly the same dog as ours and we had them both together when we fostered him so we know they liked each other and played well. M is not the dog H and S14 were talking about because he's not a whole lot younger than our dog, though he looks a lot younger now that ours is going gray. He can probably run faster right now, but he's 7. He's a shedaholic and furrier than our dog. Bottom line is we feel sorry for him, and we love our dog and this is almost a carbon copy. One exception: skittish around men, and fearful if you act angry at him or come at him quickly.
I texted H a photo and txted "M is still here! what do you think?" No answer then but later on the phone h said "isn't that the one who tore up our yard?" I don't know what to say to this so I don't argue or really say anything other than I don't know. I don't recall this dog, out of the many we fostered or had over for playdates or our own for that matter, tearing up the yard more than any of them. The yard's pretty torn up though.
This morning H said "I talked to S14 about M and he reminded me that M peed all over the house." Again, I don't remember this. I'm thinking we won't know if dog x or y that we choose instead will or won't tear up the yard or pee in the house, but I don't say, I just listen.
I think we need either to choose a different dog since H seems already on the negative about him, or have a family meeting where we figure out whether we should help M out or keep looking. I'd have taken M home yesterday if I could have, and I said last year when the bomb hit that when H moved out I'd strongly consider moving M in. But I see the potential for this to be more H's decision with and for the kids, if I back off more.
So, just feeling a little lousy, stressed from not getting enough work done, and unsuccessful in my weight loss efforts (tight clothing). Need to do something for me today.
Oh, this morning I took S11 in for his appointment to ask about asthma. He's going to get an inhaler to try but he also got a 2-week goal to not gain any weight and if so he gets a new videogame. I think the PA nailed it. Her goal is to see if he can go one year without gaining so his growth spurt can help him catch up to his weight.
Ugh, sorry you're feeling badly. IMO, doing chores for a single woman your W doesn't know well is over the line.
WRT S11's weight, losing weight can be tough if you're not educated about nutrition, did the PA set up an appointment with a nutritionist or anything?
I think the on-line weightwatchers program is pretty good -- they assign points to foods based on their carbs, fiber, protein and fat mix. When you start to figure out the correlation between points and types of foods, you get educated about what you can eat lots of and what you should avoid like the plague. For instance, I always thought granola bars were healthy, but they're actually very fattening. Trying to lose weight on your own, either through willpower or exercise is really non-sustainable. WW has a good program of taking you down 2 lbs per week which avoids putting you in serious discomfort.
I know there are some free equivalent sites and iPhone apps out there too, but tracking what you eat and figuring out the "penalty" associated with different types of foods is key.
Good luck to S11, and I hope you get to feeling better. I understand your pain, I really do. I don't think I could hang in there for as long as you have.
Accuray
Hi Accuray! I've been on ww for about 3-4 years so I've talked a lot with my kids about smart food choices, and I cook WW recipes a lot, or we eat whole foods like plain roast chicken and plain mashed potatoes and plain green beans, skim milk, etc. I try to keep our kitchen stocked with good food choices like fruit, carrot sticks, yogurt, nuts, applesauce. This boy's hungry a lot, also eats emotionally, also snacks on 2-3-4 servings of applesauce or jello before I notice and cut him off. He'll even take something he knows he shouldn't and look at me sheepishly. I'm trying hard not to be food police to him but to help him reach his own goals.
Our PA actually is also a nutrition specialist so we lucked out getting her today. She zeroed in on school lunch and orange juice as a couple of things that are sabotaging him.
WW is tremendous - they should teach those skills to everyone.
IMO, doing chores for a single woman your W doesn't know well is over the line.
Seems like it, which is why I feel resentful about it.
If you're separated is it still over the line?
I have no leverage to keep his attention here, so I'm giving him what he wants. The space to be who he needs to be.
Can I be mean a minute? I noticed as he was leaving to go to her place that he has his dog tags on the outside. Usually he wears them on the inside so it appeared intentional for this lady's benefit. He looked nice & fit too.
The dog tags he bought years ago on a running website - he was all excited about them and bought them also for me and the kids. The kids, being small, lost theirs or have them in a drawer somewhere. Mine I keep in my travel kit and wear if I go for a solo hike on a business trip. RoadID. He explained them as a safety issue since he goes on very long runs and bike rides, or did back then.
H wears them all the time, night and day, working and weekends. He wore them when ML until I finally had to ask him to please take them off then as they, well, hit me in the face. He is not in the army. I have never ever disrespected him about them or anything at all about his interest in seeming quasi military or police (ditto about the car he drives, and there was a time he was keeping his red and blue flashing bicycle light in the car).
Deep down I really think it's ridiculous. I think he wants to be a hero, but the play-acting was just silly to me. It was hard to feel respectful through it but I tried to understand and NEVER breathed a word of an opinion other than strictly practical matters. (I did ask him to please stop when he tried using the lights on a date, because while I was in the car I wasn't comfortable being caught impersonating an officer. I think he was behind someone who didn't use their turn signal or cut us off or something and he wanted to "freak them out")
It bothers me that I do feel resentful and condescending about this in H. H probably has a real mid-life need to be some kind of a god and as much as I look up to him and value him, it isn't enough because I know him well enough to know he isn't a god. Maybe that's why I just can't cut it for him anymore.
Some of this stuff, and the job, and the secrecy, I think is a middle aged man's desire to be something really special. Could be our D is part of that. But in most ways he doesn't act like a MLC. He's very rational, consistent, un-confused, purposeful.
It didn't feel good getting that off my chest, because I think it's mean to ridicule him. But maybe having thrown it out there someone will have ideas to help me.
H probably has a real mid-life need to be some kind of a god and as much as I look up to him and value him, it isn't enough because I know him well enough to know he isn't a god. Maybe that's why I just can't cut it for him anymore.
Wow adinva,
This right here gives me much to think about in my own sitch. Thank you for the food for thought.
Some of this stuff, and the job, and the secrecy, I think is a middle aged man's desire to be something really special. Could be our D is part of that. But in most ways he doesn't act like a MLC. He's very rational, consistent, un-confused, purposeful.
It didn't feel good getting that off my chest, because I think it's mean to ridicule him. But maybe having thrown it out there someone will have ideas to help me.
What your describing in your H sounds like behaviours meant to feed his ego, that he's trying to fulfil some fantasy of being controller of all. It's likely driven by insecurity about himself. Has you H always been like this? Or are the control issues something that he's developed more recently?
Hi Dory (just keep swimming?) - I feel like this has been growing in H for a while, maybe over a 10 year period since we had a mortgage and kids, and getting much more pronounced in the last few years.
When I first met him he spoke sometimes of joining the volunteer fire department, which I thought was admirable. That's the same kind of hero-type thinking.
Weird, being with someone in their 40's who was pretending to be a military person or a police officer would freak me out. That's a little scary. Where do you think that need comes from? Also odd that it's been developing over 10 years versus having been there all along.
Is he obsessive about his appearance?
Is he an exercise fanatic?
Is there anything that he really excels at that he takes great pride in?
Is he super competitive?
Does he obsess over anything else?
Do people consider him likeable, or is he hard to warm up to for new acquaintances?
Accuray
The answer to all of your questions is yes, obsessive about appearance, exercise fanatic, excels at basically everything but mainly sports/coaching/triathlons, is the most competitive person I've ever met bar none, obsesses over property taxes and probably other things. He's a likeable fun guy in the work situations I've seen him in, used to have a bunch of guys he'd have lunch with. He's so funny and smart people are usually attracted to him. But when he offends people he either doesn't like or who are more sensitive than he is, he really doesn't care, sometimes will even go out of his way to offend them even more. I'd say most people who know him like him, and few people know him well.
And yeah, I found his personality change alarming but it happened over years and we adapted. I'm not the same person I was at 22 either. He went from opposed to guns to a concealed carry NRA member shooting team gun collector. That plus the other stuff and the secret job meant that when he first dropped the bomb I was scared. I thought I have no idea who he is anymore, how do I know what he won't resort to if he's under this much stress and misery. But as things have been very even and calm, he's shown no unpredictability or really unhinged behavior.
He does joke a lot and sometimes things he thinks are funny other people don't - I chalked the police light thing up to that. The other stuff like dog tags is not so scary.
What were you thinking when you asked those questions?
Honestly I was thinking "big time MLC", all that's missing is the new sports car. The dog tags, guns and playing police officer seems very juvenile for someone who is smart and successful -- is he happy with what he's accomplished in his career and his life, or does he feel he's come up short?
The super-competitive and obsessive things might indicate narcissism which is also extremely hard to deal with, my MIL is an over the top narcissist so I see that first hand.
Basically if he has super-high standards for himself, he'll often have high expectations for his family members and that can be exhausting or impossible to live up to. He can also have a very hard time with empathy.
When I asked if people consider him likeable, I was trying to gauge how well he manages this stuff. I have some old friends who are super competitive and basically lack humility. People respect their abilities, but they don't necessarily "like" them. You'll invite them to play basketball with you, but you won't want to invite them for a beer afterwards. If your H doesn't have that problem, then he probably manages his competitive/obsessive qualities well and is able to be approachable and likeable.
To make friends, you basically need to let your guard down at some point and make yourself vulnerable to rejection. If he had a huge pile of insecurities he may not ever be able to do that, which would mean he'd have a lot of friendly acquaintances, but a lack of real friends who really "know" him.
It certainly shines more light on your sitch. Cadet directed me to a bunch of archive MLC resources which were great. I appreciated them, although I don't think my W's issues are MLC related.
What do you think? Do you think H has more than average insecurity issues? Do you think that H's behavior fits the MLC profile? Do you think H has impossible standards for you and the kids?
Honestly, you write very well, so to the degree I can "know the person" by reading your journaling, I feel like I know you to some degree. I respect how you look at things. Some of these sitches you can really understand what went wrong and why, but your case is very frustrating to me, because I don't understand what H is doing and why, unless there is OW. I just don't get it, and I would like to.
Accuray
I initially thought H was a MLC case, and I spent a couple of months lurking in the MLC forum. It just didn't strike a chord for me. I couldn't chalk this sitch up to something on H's side that was beyond my control. He's not spinning, not confused, not crazy sounding. I think a lot of his recent changes do have to do with resisting getting older, and taking stock at midlife, but that is not necessarily a crisis - most people do that I think. I feel pretty sure that looking at H as a MLC is a dead end, a cheeseless tunnel for me.
In counseling I've become aware that H has frailties I had never considered before, because he presents as a super man. His perfectionism masks anxiety, his quick temper masks fears, his joking is a way to hold people at arms' length, and it's a new way of looking at him that gives me more compassion for some of his more difficult behaviors, like criticizing and nagging. H does not get vulnerable, but I feel more open to loving him as a more complex and imperfect person in a more authentic relationship. He may not join me in that, but I'm prepared for it if I get a chance.
I don't know much about narcissism as a diagnosis. H usually thinks he's right about everything, and he has little empathy for others, but I would not have said it was a personality disorder. He is right about a lot, and a healthy lack of empathy is great for a splinter-remover and first-aid provider. I'm so squeamish I feel others' pain. H just seems to me like a stereotypical masculine guys' guy.
It just seems kind of like he switched off at some point. Everything he did in recent years was an obligation, from his work to his hobbies, to the vacations we'd get invited on with friends. He seemed to find no joy in anything, not even the kids - or I'd say especially not the kids. And then one day he was just done.
I read a lot that resonates and helps me understand my sitch. The Dance of Anger was eye opening and showed me our pattern where the more I pleaded for connection the more withdrawn he'd get. The Family Communication book I read made it clear how common it is that marriages are destroyed by passive aggressive, confusing communication, which was certainly true for us. DB has helped me regain my dignity and focus, and the forums have given me perspective. Counseling helped to get H talking about things that were bothering him that I could then work on. My faults were real and significant, and I'm nowhere near perfect yet.
There could be an OW, but that's not the source of our trouble. There was a definite EA in H's past, really blatant but he acted like he didn't think there was anything wrong. I was mad about that for a year, and when we should have probably been in counseling to deal with the fallout from that I was instead stewing silently.
I have thought that H just sort of snapped this past year and shut down or went crazy or is depressed and won't deal with it. But these are things I can't do anything about if they're true.
I expect there to be more movement in my sitch as we close in on the year separation that Virginia requires when there are kids involved. That would be in June. For now we're in a holding pattern so things are pretty complacent.
I just started reading Hold Me Tight on the recommendation of my friend who's a psychologist. So far, it's just OK. The basic theory is that all the problem-solving skills and communication skills are just addressing a symptom of the real problem in troubled couples. The real problem is the loss of attachment - that couples are supposed to take care of each other, to have each other's back, and to provide comfort and security to one another like a mother does for her baby.
I believe there's something to that, but working on attachment without fixing the communication and problem solving issues seems like fixing the engine but the brakes are still bad. Also in the scenarios supposedly based on aggregated real patients, the husband always seems to just break out of his funk and ask for a hug, and then things can get better. NOT realistic. Not in my situation.
But the couples' breakdowns do sound a lot like mine. I'm only about a third of the way through the book.
If I were to diagnose my husband, I would say that he is very angry that his father left their family, and he is angry at me that I haven't been what he needed. He has no road map for what a dad does other than leave the family. He has no experience of a relationship weathering a storm and getting better. He just wants an amicable divorce, and is excited about the trappings of bachelorhood. He envies his friends' hot young girlfriends and the cavalier way they treat these girls, who are utterly replaceable to them.
Others here have said that I won't see progress until he really believes he'll lose me, and that may happen this summer as the paperwork starts to happen.
I'm not sure I'll see progress at all. H has so many more examples of divorced couples than lifelong couples, and the grass must look greener.
I'm taking it less personally than I did at first, and I'm doing all I think I can do within the confines of what I know he can handle and what I'm brave enough to try. I'm willing to let him go, but I don't think I'll be one who stands through and following a divorce. When the paperwork goes through I expect to set out to find a better partner and will be glad for the second chance. But - as I have thought many times, I'd like another chance with H, he's my first choice for a second husband, if he's willing to try and open up.
ok all this time s11 has been stomping around and crying about a writing assignment he can't do that should be really easy, and yes it is 12:30 at night. I better go. G'nite.
adinva,
when you talk about your H not finding joy in things like family vacations and the kids.. it hits home. my H won't say it, but i feel he has the lure of the single life as well. once he's a bachelor.. everything will be all rosy.
H has not had very examples for weathering the storm of M as well. his father cheated numerous times during his childhood. H was fully aware of this as well. in fact, i remember my FIL telling me how he was going to leave his wife and had the OW in the car. when he announced he was leaving, MIL told him she was pregnant (w/ H) so he turned around and told OW he couldn't leave.
just wanted to let you know i'm thinking of you. (((( ))))
Barely,
That's a crazy story! Who are these people?
One of my college roommates said that when he was in grammar school, his family went on vacation with another family for a week. After three days, his mother left with the other father and that was that.
I don't understand what gets into people's heads. Do they really think bachelor life is going to be fun in their mid-40's? I have three friends who were never married, are now in their mid 40's, and I can promise you they are not happy about it or having fun.
Accuray
One of h's best friends is a super achiever too, buys and sells companies and has a cool apartment in downtown Chicago. Model good looks, very smart, great conversationalist, money to burn. He brought his 19yo gf on our three-family vacation and there was lots of talk about how much sex they were having. Plus his sexy pictures of her were on the batch of trip photos he downloaded from his ipad for us. At dinner she told me she thought my son was hot - they're 8 years apart and she's 26 years apart from her bf. Ew. This guy and his ex successfully coparent an 11yo girl.
H's best friend from high school had a wife who got pregnant immediately and left him 8 weeks after the baby was born. He's pretty cynical about women. He's dating a 27yo who acts like a 15yo (she's the hello kitty sock girl). She told me she knows he slept with the wife of a doctor he works with and is friends with, as well as other married women.
These are two of the three closest male friends he has. I believe single life looks good to him.
I have come to realize that he just may not value family life and didn't realize it until he was knee deep in it. I took it as a given that what we have is wonderful, but that's from my perspective and he has a right to his. I don't know for sure what his perspective is. At this point, I'm just sure I'm not going to add support to his position by fighting, getting upset, arguing with him and whatever. He's going to have to walk away from the best I have to offer and if he does, then he does.
One of the biggest things I learned through all this, from my viewpoint, was to suspect my own outrage. Whenever I start to fall into outrage I question myself. It seems to come from a set of assumptions and a sense of entitlement. I can frame what he's doing as a cowardly abandonment of his family, or as a desperate need to correct a mistake and live authentically. I'm not in his head. Life can suck and be unfair but it's unhealthy to wallow in that.
Hey Barely! (((()))) back to you. I've been thinking of you a lot but not posting. Basically ditto what everyone else says. I hope you are having a great escape with your munchkins. Cool mommy points for you for taking them on a trip with you.
Was sorry when you were feeling sad. H's words can really hurt. Hope you're feeling better now!
I'd love to have him talk to my three single friends. They're not bad looking guys, they make good money, etc. What they would tell H is that the dating scene sux and to prepare for lots of loneliness. One of the guys says that with Internet dating, "the crazy" seems to always come out on the 3rd date.
These guys are very, very lonely. Maybe the only way H realizes that is to live it.
Accuray
adinva,
i have those exact thoughts of H and family life! i need to find the strength you do!
as for H's friend and his 19 yr old gf.. yuck! but maybe he's found the secret to happiness in a relationship.. maybe i need to start dating a 63 yr old then maybe i'll be happy! lol. good luck w/ that relationship.
i believe happiness is still a choice. although our Hs may have found themselves knee-deep in family life when it was too late.. it is what it is. and rather than focusing on what they don't have.. they forget to focus on what they do have. loving wife.. beautiful children.. i didn't expect to find myself at 37.. heading towards D w/ 2 small kids but that is where i am. although some days seem overwhelmingly sad.. i still find the joy and beauty that is in the lives of my babies. and finding happiness there is my choice. wish our Hs could do the same.
i love how you have taken on the challenge of really looking within yourself and admitting your own weaknesses. the ability to do that is one of your biggest strengths. i really admire that.
One of the biggest things I learned through all this, from my viewpoint, was to suspect my own outrage. Whenever I start to fall into outrage I question myself. It seems to come from a set of assumptions and a sense of entitlement. I can frame what he's doing as a cowardly abandonment of his family, or as a desperate need to correct a mistake and live authentically. I'm not in his head. Life can suck and be unfair but it's unhealthy to wallow in that.
We’ve had “conversations” about my anger, so you know I needed to read it. This is something I haven’t been doing. I’ve just been accepting my anger, and basically using it as fuel against my H, even if I don’t say a word to him. I haven’t done any REAL work to figure out my anger and how to let it go. But my work starts today.
Thank you for saying this.
Thanks you too! You know what one thing is that gives me strength?
For a few years now I've been more and more aware that my marriage wasn't perfect anymore. My H did not cherish me, and he did not have my back, and he wasn't going to hold me just right when life got hard, or let me hold him. I accepted that as my life that I built, and accommodated it.
But now when I look to the future I feel excited that I might have a chance at being really cherished by someone. Or at least not wondering why the one I'm with doesn't feel that way about me. I don't feel unlovable anymore. We had problems; some people work through theirs and maybe we will. If we don't, I can move on to a better life. I get a lot of peace from that.
Barely and Ro, you are BEAUTIFUL, strong and intelligent women! You have so much going for you! Give H enough time and space, and if he never gets to where he wants to come back, you'll go get a better life too.
"The Solo Partner" also has a whole chapter on anger and how to use it for positive change. I love that book.
Accuray
One of the biggest things I learned through all this, from my viewpoint, was to suspect my own outrage. Whenever I start to fall into outrage I question myself. It seems to come from a set of assumptions and a sense of entitlement. I can frame what he's doing as a cowardly abandonment of his family, or as a desperate need to correct a mistake and live authentically. I'm not in his head. Life can suck and be unfair but it's unhealthy to wallow in that.
wow... this resonates so much with me!
I will keep this handy. I want to emulate you and do the same. I want to learn to "suspect my own outrage.' Sounds so simple, yet so hard to do.
What a healthy way of approaching it!
THANK YOU!
Hi KG thanks for your kind words! Wishing you the best,
Adinva
Accuray, I've got to get that book. Maybe when I'm done with 7 Conversations.
Journaling so I can stop obsessing.
1. After many requests from the kids, H has said we can get another dog and has expressed a couple of traits he wants, like enough energy for a long run.
2. H has commented about a past foster dog of ours, when I said this dog was available again, that it tore up our yard and peed in the house.
3. Twice yesterday H was within earshot but not talking to me, about the dog poop in the yard. Talking to S11, "watch out for the dog poop it's all over the place." I said it shouldn't be, I've been on top of it.
4. Last night I asked where he saw it so I could make sure and get it. "Everywhere." I asked is it a lot, like bagsful? Yes.
OK. My communication book says to ask for clarification when your partner's verbal and nonverbal communication don't match.
I went out today with two bags and found one old poop that was slightly outside the dog's area, one new one, and that's it. I'd rather be happy than right so I don't see the point of arguing with H about his opinion.
But I think it bears mentioning that he seems to have some concerns that we should resolve to our satisfaction before we consider bringing another dog into the house.
We also had our home visit from the rescue place yesterday and H met the lady and then went away, didn't stay with us. Noticed I showed her all the rooms, including ours. H later asked me why I needed to show her where he sleeps. I just said I don't know, it's a home visit. I couldn't tell if that was a legitimate question or an expression of resentment. Our home visit resulted in approval so now we can bring home a foster dog or adopt a dog anytime now.
I just think H is expressing something indirectly that we should get out in the open. He may want a dog to run with, but he's sort of indirectly on record if the dog poops a lot or messes up the house that he was against it. I don't feel like he's really on board.
He may be thinking that it doesn't matter because he's leaving soon. If that's the case I suppose I would agree that it doesn't matter, because I am willing to handle the consequences of having two dogs, whether H is here or not.
If it's another brick in the wall that might keep us from reconciling though, that's something I'd like to avoid.
Help - spinning bc my military H might be gay and won't wear his rings around our small children.
JK. Wish my thread weren't so banal so I might get more advice and support. It's just a bright spot in my day when I see - oh! - my thread got a reply!
Seriously, though. Today I'm feeling a mix of resentment and resignation that's getting me down. The last couple of weeks have put me through the wringer. It's a luxury to brush my hair or take a shower. I'm still wearing my workout clothes from last night's zumba class because I fell asleep in them.
I'm so tired because I'm essentially a single parent these last couple of weeks. I know it's what I signed on for - I work part time so that I can be available for my kids. But it's hard. All of my time is committed.
I'm trying to get exercise so I can be fit and healthy and a better life partner. I'm taking my kids to dr appointments - asthma, allergy shots, braces, family counseling, all hours of the day. Dog to the vet. Work is busy and I've got 12 people all thinking their whatever is top priority, so I'm getting complaints cc'd to our president. I'm missing deadlines. H complained the kitchen looks like a slum.
I worked till 1am last night and S14 was still up then. Guess what, now he won't get off the floor to go to school so I'm late for work. Telecon at 10 so I'm stuck working from home now. The fish need water.
My orchid is dying, which is ok because it hasn't bloomed in a year and is taking up space on my windowsill - which is like the plant version of the toys in the mean kid's house in Toy Story. My mom says they're living things too, so I feel guilty.
My dog is begging me to take him on a walk.
After school, it's crazy lacrosse practice carpooling, guitar lessons, figuring out dinner. S14 told me this week that I only cook microwave food, which hurt my feelings but is somewhat true. Last night I made chili and chocolate pudding though.
Now I have a chili pot to scrub still. I could use a shower.
Friday's the end of the grading period so the kids are working hard to get missing assignments and such turned in. I'm working with S11 on his goal set by the dr to not gain weight before his 2-week follow up appointment.
This week I evaluated and signed up for four summer camps and am trying to figure out if I can get to Boston with S14 for the NCAA lax championship. I took my parents on a cherry blossom cruise on the Potomac.
I love my life and my family, and I work part time for a reason, but I'm so tired of feeling like the weight of the world is on my shoulders. I'm trying to get enough work done to take a day off and go on a strenuous hike with meetup.com people.
My life is a treadmill set .5 mph faster than I'm capable of running.
Whoa, that sux! Tell me why you want to add another dog to that mix
?
I think if H complains about the state of the kitchen, you should toss him the dishrag and tell him to get to work! Regardless of what's happening between the two of you, you're not his servant.
How about setting some boundaries that H needs to do his share with the kids? How about setting some boundaries at work that you can't take on that much? How about telling H he is responsible for dinner 2x per week? If he wants to order in or take you out, that's fine.
You can't let yourself get run over like that, step back, re-evaluate, and draw some new boundary lines.
Accuray
Your first line made me laugh!
Wow, it sounds like you've got A LOT going on. Being a single parent suxx, doesn't it? At least it's not completely out of control and you're able to write things down. Now look at everything and think about what you can do to make it easier on you.
I agree with Accuray about setting boundaries with H and getting him to lend you a hand...even if it's only got to do with kids, at least he won't feel that he is doing it for you (if that is an issue).
Good for you for finding time to exercise! With the million things going on, it's easy to put your own needs on the back burner. It doesn't matter how chaotic your day is, make sure to set some time aside for yourself. Yay for zumba! That always puts me in a good mood. I hope it does the same for you!
Hang in there, supermom!
Adinva, I've got to tell you that I am physically exhausted after reading your post. Why on earth would you sign up for so much?
I understand, the busier you are the easier it is to forget your other troubles and perhaps it makes you feel like you are living life. So I get that! I wonder though if there isn't an opportunity to delegate some of the home responsibilities to give yourself some breathing room.
You know we often talk about how if we had only seen the bomb coming...if we only had talked things through...if only we had communicated better with our spouses... maybe we could have avoided the breakup of our marriages. Well, perhaps that is true in other areas of our lives.
My point is that you've got 3 other humans in your life who are capable of sharing the burden of daily household duties. Some of the things you describe as chores you complete are things that the kids should be able to do. As an example, cleaning up after the dog is something the kids should do. I remember when I was a kid and we'd go over to grandmas house, we also had the responsibility of cleaning up after the dogs. I think we were maybe 7 or 8 years old then, so clearly this is something the kids could and should do.
Here's the thing. Why not sit the kids down and explain to them very clearly and directly just how tired you are and how you want the best for them and your family but that you need their help.
Maybe draw up a list of chores that you could use help with and have the kids pick which ones they will help with every day. After the selections are made, put the list and responsible parties on a chore calendar so that they know who is responsible for what. And if there is conflict because one chore is more work than another, then you can switch up accountability's each week so that everyone gets to share in the burden.
Finally, is there a connection with your heavy and overly burdensome responsibilities (home, work, sporting events, pets, etc.) and the problems in your M? Maybe it is time to shed some of the excess and simplify your life.
Hope this is helpful.
Stick the plants in the yard and wish them good luck!
Thanks everyone! I am exhausted today.
Getting the boys to do more is a sore point. Usually when H doesn't like how things are or how busy I am, he gets mad at me for not making the boys do more. If I ask H to help out with something he helps by yelling at the boys, which upsets me.
I resent the amount of time H spends in bed looking at his iPad.
I'll take your suggestions and try to set my priorities, dump a few off the list, delegate something, and recharge my batteries.
Hey Adinva
I've got to say I agree with 2 the point about you being a super woman & needing to shed some responsibilities from your busy (understatement) life.
I agree with you that being permanantly busy is both a blessing and a burden. I just really think that you could use a little bit more help though, even just to rest and get some 'Adinva - Time'.
Besides the kids helping out a bit more are there any family or friends that could help you out a little? Even if it was just to do something with the kids for a few hours once a week.
I'd have to agree with some of the other posters, getting another dog will only add more chaos to your life, when you need to start breaking down what's important and simplifying your life as & when you can.
Hang in there you busy bee
Bill
(((Ad)))where are your boundaries?
I did the Superwoman thing for a long time and it got me here.
Make a list with 2 columns, Needs and Wants. Write down all that stuff. Think about it for a couple of days and look at it again.
People will take until you tell them to stop.
Family counseling followup was yesterday. I woke s14 up for it; he'd been asleep all day but he got in the car. Once there though, he slouched and closed his eyes in the therapist's office and wouldn't respond except in grunts. H forgot but when I called him he readily offered to get back in the car and drive over. When he got there we sent the kids out to the waiting room.
I thought the session was good because H and I were kind of working as a team to brainstorm ways of helped S14 past this oppositional behavior, using tools other than just punishment or yelling. I got some ideas for using my expectations and good opinion of S14 as a motivator. We talked more about having regular family meetings and setting ground rules, and negotiating postponement if someone is too tired, upset, or whatever, to participate (like s14 was just then).
I expressed concern about getting S14 to agree to participate, and H had a good idea about how to handle refusal, which I liked a lot. (I said something like "that's why it's so great to have TWO parents" and regretted saying it in case it was taken as a comment on our situation.)
I brought up the dog as a possible topic for a family meeting, and the therapist asked us to explain about the dog issue, so I did. She said are you both on board with getting a second dog? H said, yeah I think it's fine. I said that I was aware it was going to be more dog hair on the floor, more effort, and we should set expectations so it doesn't become a problem, and the family meeting would be good for that. T asked H what if the boys don't do what you expect, won't the dog hair bother you? He said, "no because we have the maids coming every two weeks so it doesn't bother me because I know it's going to be taken care of at least that often." We then had a conversation about how we're saving money on allowance and housecleaning and the boys have the option of earning money when they need it - I said that I really liked how the new system met a lot of our goals, and H said he was fine with the boys not doing chores sometimes because he knew eventually they'd want money and get the chores done. (fyi, they have some chores that are just part of living in the house, which they do...these are the above-and-beyond ones that earn money.)
We brought the kids back in and S14 proceeded to feign sleepiness again, but there was a funny moment where S11 challenged H on his word usage and S14 blurted "thanks, Webster" with his eyes still shut. He was listening.
While I stayed behind to pay the bill, T and I talked a little about S14's behavior being part embarrassment over being on the hot seat for bullying, part oppositional behavior, and partly the fact that he was not feeling well. I thought her suggestion was great and I used it. In the car I told him things I was proud of about him at the meeting and things I was embarrassed by, that I would expect more respectful behavior and that he was acting immature. I told him in life sometimes you have to just buck up and act right, and that was part of growing up. And that was all I was going to say about it. Planting seeds.
We had a really nice dinner, me and the two boys, at California Tortilla, and then back at home s14 was sick for a short while. Then he perked up and got started on his homework. He had a ton - a science project to complete and video and coloring for Spanish. I hate when they have to stay up late coloring something. I very rarely help with homework, but in this case, with it all due the next day, I offered to do the coloring while S14 finished his science. S11 came around because he loves coloring too. S14 had done about 15 pages of spanish words, spanish sentences, and pictures drawn of each word, and the pictures had to be colored. S11 and I whipped through them but in a lot of cases we had to ask S14 what the word meant or what the sentence said, so S14 was reinforcing his spanish while getting his science done. And we were all having a good time together. Then S14 asked S11 to help hold the videocamera to tape the science project. They were getting along so nicely. S11 and I went to bed finally with S14 still down there testing and perfecting his project. When H got home from the gym he helped with some advice too. (the project was a balloon powered car).
I love that my family can go to a professional for help, even if some of them say it's lame, they're there and they're benefitting, and they're fine afterward. In my family growing up there were occasional counselors brought in and I acted absolutely horrible, and it was a complete stress and traumatic event that was soundly rejected for followup. I'm one of 5 so I just remember my counselor but my sister remembers being dragged to one too. I so wish now that someone had persisted more for me.
My wonderful boys got up on time today, got to school on time both of them (first time this week for s14), and started my day happy. And H said bye when he left this morning, which he doesn't always do.
So back to yesterday - I stayed home all day and crunched out a ton of work, which was probably the best thing I could do for my state of mind. I forgave myself for not walking the dog. I thought about tossing the plants but I really like them so I didn't do it. I thought about getting some fake ones for the windowsill and put it on a someday-to-do list. I made time for a shower and dressed nicely for the T appointment. Every day's a new day and I feel better with the amount of work I completed.
Spring break, I'm apparently the only mom my kids' friends know who's home this week so my house is the go-to. Today S11 turned 12 and we took him out for his dinner request - hibachi-style, yummy. We got the second dog over the weekend and he's an adorable goofball, getting along beautifully with our 10yo dog. Tomorrow H leaves the country until the 15th. I'm thinking about bringing the kids and dogs to DC for the weekend and going to Easter at the National Cathedral.
Not much to report otherwise.
I offered to drive H to the airport, in between meeting a temp at the office and moderating a conference call. He accepted; seems to like the door to door service over getting a taxi. I was happy to do it. The drive was pretty quiet and I told him "have a good trip" when he got out and got his bag out of the back.
I feel kind of numb about the fact that we don't touch or show any affection toward each other.
In the past we would have acted exactly the same way and I'd have been content to have such a relaxed and comfortable relationship. We would have definitely kissed before parting, but not likely a really romantic kiss, just a business-like peck. In the past I'd have expected him to call and let me know how his flight was or say hi to the kids, and now there's none of that. It just seems like what used to be comfortable relaxedness is now a wall between us.
I feel numb about that too. I feel like it's "out of my sandbox." I'm sad about that but I think I've done everything possible to show a willingness to change. I'm not gross or awful. Lots of people think I'm great, just not him.
I'd love for there to be a magical turnaround where he decides he'd walk over hot coals to be with me if that's what it took. I'm worth that. I don't see it coming from him.
Today I was thinking a little about the dating thing. I've thought a few times about old boyfriends and wondering what they're up to, but I came to the conclusion that I want to go forward, not back. There's a reason I didn't end up with them, and my next relationship could be something wonderful I never imagined. However, I feel very handicapped by the fact that I met H right out of college. I dated lots of people once or twice, but have little experience developing relationships. I never dated a guy who could afford to go on a vacation with me. I never had to negotiate which date was the one where you were expected to have sex. I was always pretty happy to be married and beyond all that.
I don't want to be alone, but as a very busy introverted person I may end up alone. I suspect fear of being alone is one of the reasons I'm fighting so long for my H. Well, the kids are a big reason too.
He's been a great provider. But in a lot of ways he's been a crappy husband and I deserve better. I haven't been perfect but I've been willing to try to be.
I don't want to be alone, but as a very busy introverted person I may end up alone. I suspect fear of being alone is one of the reasons I'm fighting so long for my H. Well, the kids are a big reason too.
Adinva - I think that is what many of us fear the most; being alone. It is an entirely natural thing to feel. But what you may be missing is that you are a very different person than you were when you were in college. You have grown in ways that many have not.
You have so much to offer but you'll never know this unless you let yourself be free. And you do this by setting your H free. It is the hardest thing you will have to do. But if you don't set him free, you will forever be bound by the chains that bind you both. Does that make sense?
[He's been a great provider. But in a lot of ways he's been a crappy husband and I deserve better. I haven't been perfect but I've been willing to try to be.
Yes, you do deserve better. You must always remember that! None of us are perfect, but the ones that strive to be a better person and who learn from past mistakes, those are the prized catches.
So keep on working on you, and let your H figure out what he is missing out on. And if he never figures that out, then that is his loss isn't it?
You say he's been a crappy H, so let him go. Go find yourself a great H who will treat you like a queen and you can treat him like a king. Then you will know happiness.
Ad, I know exactly what you're saying.
Adinva,
I definitely wrestled with the same thoughts and fears and still do to some degree. A few things I found comforting that you might too:
1) The reading, therapy and introspection that you've done probably put you in the top 1% of people aware of what it takes to make a relationship a success, that knowledge will guide you
2) Dating at our age versus in your 20's has got to be a whole different world. The people are going to be more mature and more aware of who they are.
3) Internet dating has got to make things a lot easier. Before services like Match, where were you going to find singles our age looking for longer term relationships? Now you can see pictures and read profiles in advance including what their expectations are.
In terms of "the rules" for when sex should happen etc I wouldn't sweat it. Let it happen when you want it to and not before. You have a lot to offer and I'm sure that will be very apparent to any potential suitor. I agree with 2tp, from your postings it feels like you have to let him go now, even if you will one day reconcile with him. Being a good provider just isn't enough.
Accuray
I offered to drive H to the airport, in between meeting a temp at the office and moderating a conference call. He accepted; seems to like the door to door service over getting a taxi. I was happy to do it. The drive was pretty quiet and I told him "have a good trip" when he got out and got his bag out of the back.
I feel kind of numb about the fact that we don't touch or show any affection toward each other.
In the past we would have acted exactly the same way and I'd have been content to have such a relaxed and comfortable relationship. We would have definitely kissed before parting, but not likely a really romantic kiss, just a business-like peck. In the past I'd have expected him to call and let me know how his flight was or say hi to the kids, and now there's none of that. It just seems like what used to be comfortable relaxedness is now a wall between us.
I feel numb about that too. I feel like it's "out of my sandbox."
I'd love for there to be a magical turnaround where he decides he'd walk over hot coals to be with me if that's what it took. I'm worth that. I don't see it coming from him.
I kind of in the same boat as you Ad. I really dislike the coldness and lack of affection and care. It's getting to me big time - so much that I too feel quite numb.
I am pretty sure it is just major protection on my part.
I'm also considering possible dating - just to get my heart started up with the possibility of opening up again. I too would love my H to walk over hot coals, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.
I don't mind being alone - this is where we differ. I have no problem at all being alone and spending time with myself. I always find something to do. What I miss is the excitement of sharing what I do with someone else. So, when I get nothing but a cold shoulder or cold emails - I'd really rather not have anything at all because it just makes my heart go further underground.
So what is hard is keeping yourself available for your H, but getting little - if any - affection in return.
I saw my H on Wednesday. He came over to pick up the car for the Easter weekend. We were sitting and chatting and as I was chatting with him, I realised my foot was touching his leg. As soon as I realised that, I pulled it away. I don't like feeling like I have to pull myself back but then I don't want rejection over and over again either. Not a great choice to have to make.
I'm sorry I haven't read your sitch.
*
i didn't know how to bring him "in".
Thanks, I haven't read that, will check it out.
advina.. you know i admire your strength. it seems we are on similar paths at the moment.
i have been thinking to myself lately that i deserve more than what i am currently getting (which is nothing).
it's frustrating for sure. you have worked so hard to become a better woman while H has been happy not to change.
in the end, i know you will find happiness. because you are a beautiful woman who has so much to offer. hope your H wakes up in time!
Oh barely, I've been basking in your kind words, thank you!
Thanks to all the others who dropped in too, it really means a lot to have your support.
So, I'm journaling a little again today. Nothing is new, just keeping a record.
H left for overseas on the 5th and he has not spoken with our kids since then. I've gotten two emails from him about my dataplan usage. I don't know what kind of a relationship he's going to have with those boys, and I'm sorry for that.
I made it through my business trip to Orlando, which was stressful because I couldn't figure out what to do with the kids. Before he left H said they'd be fine at home, to which ordinarily I'd express some kind of critical judgment. But instead I just looked up the law and determined that it's just flat out not legal to leave them overnight unattended yet. So I paid my sis $100 to come over and sleep here for the night. She lives out of state and works long hours so it was a big imposition on her but she was happy to do it and was super nice about it. It was kind of funny to get a call from her in the am, asking if it was ok to leave because she needed to get to work and couldn't get the kids to get out of bed. She said she tried hitting S11 in the head with a pillow but that didn't work. I was amused. I told her I had already talked to them about the fact that they'd be walking all the way to school if they missed their bus, and they knew it. She left. They got to school on time because I didn't get a call from school. I got home around 10:30pm last night and gave them hugs and kisses, went out to buy S14 a sandwich because he said he couldn't find anything he wanted for dinner. I miss them so when I'm away. I don't understand my H at all.
Of course, the kids could be calling him too. I'm trying not to orchestrate this. They don't seem to really be missing him or wanting to talk to him. He knows they're fine, they know he's fine. I seem to be the only one looking for connection.
When I read the posts on here from dads who are missing their kids or worrying about getting enough time with their kids, I wonder what's wrong with my family.
Oh yeah and 2tp I now understand how you felt in Spain about seeing loving couples all around. The airport is a terrible place to spend any time. PDA everywhere you turn.
Oh yeah and 2tp I now understand how you felt in Spain about seeing loving couples all around. The airport is a terrible place to spend any time. PDA everywhere you turn.
An in your face reminder of what we don't have. Really stinks!
Hi Advina,
When I read the posts on here from dads who are missing their kids or worrying about getting enough time with their kids, I wonder what's wrong with my family.
I know how you feel.
I've been thinking about how my H can have so little contact with the kids that he previously appeared to love so much.
Thinking back on it, I believe he was checking out of the 'dad' role for several months before he actually left. Just the same way that he was checking out of the husband role way before he dropped the bomb.
They become someone else - in my H's case, a 20-year-old who has gone back to friends and activities that he had before he even met me.
He isn't a dad anymore, he's this 'free' 20-year-old. The kids aren't his, they're 'mine' in his eyes. He's re-building his life as if we weren't in it - certainly not in the roles of 'wife' and 'children'.
Of course he still has to do things with the kids from time to time, but it's becoming increasingly awkward if these things involve anything other than an activity that allows him to be the playful 'older brother'.
Sorry A, but you do have your relationship with your kids and that is within your control. It is sad and wrong that he is not engaged with them. Hopefully some day he will realize that. Unfortunately, it most likely will not be you that can he him see that. Life will have to be his teacher.
Enjoy your boys and plan stuff with them even when your h is around. Could be after a while he will feel like he is missing something and re-engage. If not, well you are still building memories with your kids! Take care of you.
Thanks CES, I needed to hear that.
I think men are better able to compartmentalize than we are, just as women in general are better at multi-tasking (hate that word).
I see a lot of men here who aren't compartmentalizing their children but are making them a focus and priority. Makes me think about trading up. But I always come back to wanting to improve and work with the potential of the relationship I have with my H. Until I'm done I'll keep hoping.
So. H comes home tomorrow from his latest overseas assignment. I learned a couple of things while he was gone this time. First - my 180 of having a neat house is still not a real change but rather more like a compromise that I'm willing to do out of love. Since he's been gone the kids and I have managed to make quite a mess while we've struggled to exist through holidays, school breaks, illnesses, work challenges and more these two weeks. I am super motivated to clean up today, not out of fear, but out of love to make a nice place for him to come back to. But I know I have not yet transformed myself into a neat and tidy person, and may never.
Second, just because I felt like it, I took my car in for needed service and while driving H's I filled the gas tank and got it washed. He may notice or not, and I didn't do it as a tactic. Just thought it would be a nice thing to do.
Third, life is hard without a loving partner. I feel exhausted and like I really need a break, and I'm letting some things slip just trying to keep my head above water.
Fourth, I'm waiting patiently for my H to wake up to what he's losing, but if he doesn't I'm not going to be interested. It's not hard to consider divorcing this person. I can't believe my H turned into him, but he's not a very appealing life partner. I'm not banging my head against the wall to keep him.
Advina,
I feel like I could've written that myself. I liked your line when you said its not hard to consider divorcing this person, thats how I feel too. I don't know where my husband when but I wouldn't have even dated this guy!
Wow. Fighting, I examined your stats, and you're just about where I was at your age. I got married at 27 and had my kids in my early 30s. A few years later was when things started getting difficult. My H would fall asleep in the kids' room more often than not, and I'd find myself wandering down the hall looking for him to come to bed in the middle of the night. H started playing in a band and stayed out all night, started obsessing over another woman. I felt like we weathered these difficult times and were good for the long haul.
Nothing wise to tell you right now, but just sympathize. I could easily have been here back then instead of now.
I picked up H at the airport last night and brought the puppy, who sat in the front seat, so H climbed in the middle row and said he was fine there. So, I'm chaufferring him home and he petted the dog a lot and asked a bunch of questions about him and how he's getting along with our other dog. He also had a lot of affection for the main dog when he got home. I was happy to see that he brought home a souvenir for each of the boys. We were all watching tv on the bed and I was keeping laundry going, when H tossed a bag at me. I said oh, is this for me? And he said it's your laundry. Oops, my bad. I felt kind of stupid for thinking he got me something. It was, in fact, my bag of a couple of dirty items from my business trip last week, that I had forgotten and left on the floor.
Thanks labug! Yeah, ouch. Oh well.
I totally agree life is hard without a loving partner, I feel so lonely and I am never alone!! I see other couples holding hands and I just want that back. I don't want to be alone for the rest of my life.
adinva- is Hs LL "acts of service"? cuz if it is, you're doing great!
Thanks vero! He definitely speaks acts of service. In looking back at the complaints he had many were about things I wasn't doing (not all, but many). So yeah, I'm trying. But really just to be a thoughtful person, not so he'll notice.
Advina- Your H and mine may be long lost brothers! When you said that my stats are similar to yours, would it have been easier to let go at my point? Is it harder as the kids get older? right now I feel like I don't even like this person, he is not the man I married. I feel like letting go sometimes, because I can't respect him as he is doing this to our family. I sometimes feel like if I fight for it, it will just happen again later on. Do you think it is less traumatic when the kids are older or younger?
My opinion is just mine and I hope others here could add their comments. I had a friend whose husband went back to Estonia when their daughter was 4, and they got a divorce. She was so distraught, and I watched her daughter when she went to lawyers and court appointments. I felt sooo bad for her. But I have thought that it was better for her to have a young child's understanding of daddy and then just mommy, so that was normal life to the child, compared with teens learning how to be adults, testing their limits and looking for answers in the world. I will be asked questions that are harder and more influential to their development. Maybe you could say the that 4 year old will grow up to ask those same questions, I don't know. Divorce is NEVER easy on kids at any age, that much I know.
If I could go back I would do things differently but I would still not have left my H back then. I would have worked harder on the problems that I wrote off as just normal stuff married couples deal with. And I would have gotten treatment for my problems rather than expecting my H to tolerate them.
You can't predict whether your H is going to do this again or not, you can only do what you think is the right thing to do in each moment you're given.
Every age has it's own particular hardships. At no age is d easy. Kids will always want mommy and daddy to be together.
More mundane journaling, bear with me. Last night the dogs came in from outside and the new one attacked the older one. I followed instruction and grabbed water to snap them out of it, but H appeared from out of nowhere, grabbed new dog by the scruff of his neck and closed him in the powder room. Okayyyyy... I'm respecting that his ways are different, or at least I'm aware that I'm trying to do that.
Upstairs I ask, how long would you like to keep him in there? and H replies "all night. he needs to be punished, he needs to know our dog is dominant and I'm in charge." This wasn't acceptable to me because dogs don't understand 8 hours of punishment, they live in the moment. I thought H had made his point and the dogs should be separated for the night, but not punished for the night. I started recapping the two weeks he missed, where I was observing them, researching and getting help from the pros, and what they had said, and he basically interrupted, talked over me, used sarcasm and straw man arguments. He said the pros don't know what they're talking about, and I asked point blank are you going to listen to me at all or have you made up your mind? He said I have made up my mind. So I began to talk about our conversation patterns, and that though he said once that he felt I didn't listen to him, I thought this pattern put me on the defensive and made it difficult for me to listen. I was trying to listen and wanted to learn from him but I wanted to be heard too. He had likened my information to the fact that people used to think human electroshock therapy was effective based on research. Come on, I said. We're talking about two dogs, and they weren't going to hurt each other. I was trying to get him to see what stakes we were really talking about and how we were both on the same side but were acting like adversaries. I said my peace. He had little response. I moved the dog to S14's bedroom where he usually sleeps and shut the door.
I was frustrated. I think it was a good opportunity to get deeper than the issue at hand and examine why we were beating on each other instead of working together. He just thinks I'm plain wrong and I think he's plain wrong, but in the end the stakes just are't high enough, it's not a hill to die on. But I felt like I went back to not listening when I moved the dog, and I did not care in that moment. I thought keeping the dog there all night was potentially damaging to the dog and I felt like if H is divorcing me because he will not discuss only order, then fine. I just couldn't maintain total obedience in this situation. erg was I frustrated.
I also mentioned that perhaps this was a topic we should discuss in multiple parts since we were both kind of angry. I had a trainer scheduled to come and we could keep learning how best to handle the dogs. He said "I KNOW what the trainer's going to say blah blah blah" and basically wrote off whatever he or she might have to say. I stopped him and said you're getting hypothetical here and writing off what you assume they'll say. You do NOT know what they'll say. Let's just hear them out, we have the same goal here. I don't see a downside to getting some help from an expert.
So, in a way it was a backslide, and in a way it was reaching a line I don't feel like crossing to save my marriage. I'm willing to talk and listen and resolve conflict, but if he's just interested in being the alpha of the house I didn't sign up for that, and honestly I don't know if it's good for my kids to tolerate that.
This thread's just about to 100 so I started a new one, Living without expectations, so I could chitchat about what it is we're all doing here, with thanks to Mindfull for presenting a viewpoint I took issue with.
I guess if anyone has thoughts about my alpha dog issue from last night it makes sense to keep this thread open for a little while.
the only thing i can possibly add (and i'm no expert, just a screw up) is that i'm trying to start my thoughts to my husband with more "I's" and less "you's". "i feel..." instead of "you don't" or "you can't". it's so hard but sometimes, i think to myself, before i speak, count to three, breathe, breathe...
life is so hard sometimes...
You're right - I forgot all about doing that as my heart started to race. Breathing and waiting helps so much.
Advina -
After your invite to discuss my pet peeve, I still don't really care to expand.
I've been over and over this through the years... and, am really here just to pay it forward to Autumn (I got caught up very briefly in two other situations, but pulled back...)
I was curious about who you are, since you actually spoke up, and in a friendly manner, challenged me.
I just read your last post, and nothing else.
BEEN THERE! DONE THAT!!
My xH got mad at our (then) S8, and tell him (at 5pm) that he had to sit in his room until the morning, and had to urinate in a bucket. He came and told me "THE RULE" and then, promptly left to "go out of town for work".
Now, do you think a MOM would let that happen? NOT I don't care what the behavior is, you don't leave a child in his room to urinate in a bucket, overnight. GAWD. And, I'm not just saying this because I'm Mom, but... S8 hardly looked at him sideways for this punishment.
xH also got pissed at the dog, and threw him (w/his foot) down the stairs once. For jumping on him when he entered the house, and REPEATEDLY locked the dog(s) away in a closet if he got pissed.
I have ZERO advice for you on this one, as I never got it right.
But, I feel for you.
It [censored] to deal w/someone on the opposite end of what's appropriate.
Mindful, thanks, that was kind of you to check out my thread. I do not know how people who've gone through their sitches find the time and compassion to come here and help. I didn't intend to steal you over to my thread but appreciate the sympathy. The behavior you described in your x compares to some of my H's worst moments, and it's very hard to deal reasonably and maturely with stuff like that.