Never thought I'd be here.......part 5

Old thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2211550&page=1

Waking up this morning feeling crappy. Lost in my head I suppose. I'm four months past d day and still hurt that my W is still moving forward with D. Got a note regarding court appearance for next week. That did not feel very good.

Given the fact that she said she has "no trust in me at all" (still don't know why), I am feeling rather hopeless in the DB world today. Maybe I will feel better later.

Crimson

Hope you get better as the day goes on. If the DB is feeling hopeless (and I can completely identify with that feeling many days) remember that its for YOU primarily. Take care of you today.

Hope you can find something for yourself today. For me, if I allow myself to get lost in misery, it tends to take longer to get out of it and it never really helps. I would guess you don't feel like doing much, but do it anyway. It will help you move through these feelings faster. You deserve to feel better than this so do it for yourself.

I put this quote in one of my posts the other day and I'll share here as well...

"If you find yourself going through hell, keep going!" Theadore Roosevelt.

Crimson, sorry you're having a bad morning. I suspect the pain is a necessary part of the learning experience, unfortunately.

Also, sorry for not offering more information about myself in my previous post to you. At 30, I married a 39yo man who was divorced with 4 children (yes, I believe I must have been crazy.) We've been married for 17 years, T for 18. Currently same house, separate bedrooms, like unfriendly roommates. I just ordered the book, waiting impatiently for it to arrive.

I have a unique situation here in that I'm the WAW, yet I feel like I'm the (only) one that's still desperate to save my M. My H is very reactionary -- he'll respond when the fire is hot, but as soon as things cool, he's back to his old self. I've been telling him for years that he simply wasn't going to believe that I would ever leave him until I handed him divorce papers, and then it would be too late.

I think the most frustrating thing for me is that my husband already lost one family, and he claims it totally devastated him. You would think he would have learned from that and done better the second time around. Instead, he seems to have just picked up exactly where he left off (only after we were married; beforehand he was a prince.)

To give you some possible insight into your wife: I'm tired of being angry and disappointed. I'm tired of interacting with my H like he's a child and needs to be told everything. I have a child already -- I need a partner, not another child. I'm tired of so many broken promises. We all heard the story of the boy who cried "wolf" when we were kids, how does it not apply to some? I simply don't believe them anymore. And there's been so many examples of temporary changes, I have no reason to think the next time will be any different. And the worst part for me is when he DOES change, he simply proves that he can change, albeit temporarily, so when he drops the changes, it's obviously a choice. He's only applying the changes to get what he wants, and as soon as he gets what he wants, what I want no longer matters.

I'm not sure if you've had the same cycle, but it gets really, really old from my side of the equation. It gets to the point that it seems it would be much less painful to divorce and start over, or even to be alone, than to keep trying. But that's a very hard-earned decision, and once that mindset is acquired, you don't want to let go. It's freeing. It offers hope. It sheds light on the possibility that you might be able to find the person you used to be, before you married the "love" of your life. Although you know you might be looking forward to a boatload of ugly, at least it's a different ugly. And it's ugly that you might be able to have some control over. And there's even the possibility of a happy second marriage (it happens.) Could it be worse? Honestly, it's hard to imagine.

I hear that you've been at this for some time, but how does that time compare to how long you weren't trying? You feel bad now, for months, but maybe your wife felt bad for years. Even with as much as you're putting into it right now, how much time does it take out of your day? When I add up everything I wanted from my husband in the course of a day, it would have cost him maybe 15 minutes, if he did a really good job. It takes an incredibly loving spirit to want to be giving to someone that has already been "taking" from you for so many years. And I doubt your wife has it in her right now. I know I don't.

It's a bit of a catch22, but you doing now what she wanted all along but doing it in response to you losing something you want, probably doesn't feel to her like you're doing it for the right reasons. You couldn't do it when SHE was the one feeling the pain, only when YOU'RE the one feeling it. It's really tough to be empathetic to that, when she's been the one feeling the pain all along and is only now feeling better by being away from you. Plus, even if you're doing everything you should have been doing all along, that doesn't get you out of debt, only keeps you from getting worse. (Think of it like putting on 50 lbs. You have to do more then just eat what you should have all along to expect to actually lose weight.) I'm not sure what it will take for her (or me) to want to reunite. I'm not sure what you or my H can do to make yourselves irresistible.

I can't imagine anyone that would want to step back into hell if they had a chance to get out, even if they acquired a few permanent scars on the way out. I can honestly say that if it weren't for my S11, I would have left my H long ago and never looked back, even if it meant being alone for the rest of my life.

Funny, I'm here hoping to figure out how I'm supposed to want to go back. I can forgive and not be angry/vindictive, I just don't know how to muster the desire to even want to talk to him, much less want to hold hands or any other sort of intimacy. He keeps telling me that he loves me, as if that should mean something to me, like I'm so completely unlovable that I should be willing to accept anything from him. Besides, I've lived with his "loving" me for 17 years and it's not very appealing. It also seems like everything is so haunted with the memory of conflict, I don't know what we could do together that wouldn't leave a bad taste in my mouth before we even started.

If I was your wife, I would ask, "Why? What for?" It seems like my H is relying upon feelings to save our marriage that he spent the majority of our marriage trying to kill.

I'm not trying to discourage you, I think you're doing a wonderful thing and I believe you're sincere in your efforts. I'm just not sure how it's supposed to work out happily-ever-after, coming from the other side of things.

Well, trip is over and I am in the airport waiting to go home.

Not sure exactly why, but I was fighting off sadness today and had a minor breakdown with my friend around noon or so. I am feeling hopeless today in terms of saving my family. And I feel as if my wife's heart is as hard as ever, yet so many people say that she is struggling, too. I'll say it again, if she is struggling with the notion of D, she is doing an excellent job hiding it.

I am trying to stay out of the tar pit that is self-pity, but I still struggle with forgiving myself and internalizing all of the reasons why she was so unhappy. I am not dodging them, rather, I just am having a hard time saying "yes, you were right to leave me", even though I know there is truth in that statement.

She commented that she wanted to hear what I told my parents about MY contributions to our situation - which would basically be A LOT of the things I have shared about myself and my upbringing on this board. When it came up again, she said write a letter or an e-mail. Even though that may go against DB, I am thinking about doing it. Not as a "pursuit" behavior, but just to let her known where I am in this process and what I have learned about myself over the four months this saga has rolled on.

I know I like having a family. I never knew how much, but I can see how central that is to my life. Moreover, the strength of the bond that I have developed with my son tells me beyond the shadow of a doubt that I WANT at least one more child in my family. My w knew she did, and I was unsure after 3 years of infertility. Now I know that they give me more in my life than they could ever take. I never learned that as a boy or in my 20's, but it has become so clear.

I know that I want to be a husband, that that gives me purpose, partnership and pride. But I want to be a BETTER husband. One that listens and puts wife and family before any personal selfishness. My friend said in rather frank terms that I never learned how EMOTIONALLY SUPPORT a wife. She was very right. And that is where I failed my current wife. I want to be better for her, but if not her - someone someday. Having a wife and family under one roof means more to me than I ever knew.

Crimson

Crimson you have come along way from the beginning. Keep up your 180s. And your positive thinking. I see you and I are at that point where we finally get it even if it's to late

Thanks, CO. Don't know why today was so hard. I'm guessing because preliminary hearing dates have been set. That kind of puts things into critical focus.

My W thought inward going to be coming by tonight to see him, when it's actually tomorrow night. She texted to say he was in the window waiting for me to get there. My heart broke knowing that she would have to tell him I wouldn't be there tonight. I told that there was a mix-up in communication and apoligized and she never texted me back. I feel like crap about that.

Fear of losing everything in the court proceedings is starting to really get to me. W will have all of her income plus a nice piece of mine, I'll be writing child support checks and still be paying for part of his daycare. I fear that I am going to be bankrupted. Lose the house. Lose my credit. I have worked and studied so incredibly hard to get to where I am (I'm no Trump, but I can happily provide for my family) and I don't want to get knocked back down again. Losing my wife, chunks of time with my son, and all of THAT seems like such an unjust price to pay for the mistakes that I made and the poor level of emotional support I gave my wife. If it is just going to me my S and me, I don't feel like I will have enough income left provide a decent life for him.....save for college, and so on.

I don't want any of this for my W, my S or for me. I hope there is still time and a chance to save my family.

Crimson

Crimson/CO

I feel so bad for both of you. I can see that in the last couple months you both really want your family back but it doesn't look so good. I can tell you both seem sincere, thought you were dealing with life and being there for your wife and kid.

I keep thinking that it is not fair at all because your intent was not to make your wife miserable, we learn from our parents how to love people and for whatever reason it wasn't enough.

I got a huge eye opener in August and I'm pretty sure my wife was close to throwing in the towel. She wants to make sure I make some changes and I'm ok with that. She is willing to also make changes so we will survive and I know this experience will make me a better person.

My question is actually not for you guys but others that are checking up on this thread.

I've been hear for about 5 months and I've noticed that when the WAW decides she has had enough that she has checked out. Looks as though she flipped a switch and no matter what you say or do its too late and no second chance.

Anyone know why this seems to be the case?

"Losing my wife, chunks of time with my son, and all of THAT seems like such an unjust price to pay for the mistakes that I made and the poor level of emotional support I gave my wife."

Crimson, it is important that you not shoulder all of the blame for the problems in your M. Your W had a role to play in this as well.

You really need to stop operating from fear and regret. Instead, it is time you adopt a position of strength and confidence. Doing so will help you better manage the rough patches and it is considerably more attractive, wouldn't you agree?

Hang in there!

Shaky, we had a discussion on this topic a week or so ago. Check out the 12/31/2011 4:25pm post by 25yearsmlc and follow the thread....

Crimson, I had to post this.

A red flag jumped at me as you mentioned your court date is set and your W wants to know what you feel was your part in the M failure.

This is not mind reading, simple caution. Be careful about putting on paper anything that might show you in negative light if brought up to the courts. Even if it seems benign to you, it could be twisted out of context and used against you as leverage.

IF you write anything, suggest the learnings, rather than the negative behaviours.

ie. "I told my parents that I've learned we have two ears and one mouth, because we should listen twice as much as we speak" As opposed to saying, "I nagged and complained to my W all the time and realized I never listened to her."

Make sense?

I read through what was linked from a post made by 25. Let me say, it hits to the core of what and why a WAW stays the corse.

What came through, and I hope you read it, was the years of neglect and devaluing a W puts up with makes it so clear to why they find happiness w/o us.

I'm so sorry we find ourselves in this sitch. I don't know about you but I ask myself and pray to become that better S.

Our W's have given us chances time and time again. I can see why would they ever trust us again. I don't blame my W for not wanting too.

It's just so sad it comes to this.

Keep up the work no matter what!

Originally Posted By: Crimson

Well, trip is over and I am in the airport waiting to go home.

Not sure exactly why, but I was fighting off sadness today and had a minor breakdown with my friend around noon or so. I am feeling hopeless today in terms of saving my family. And I feel as if my wife's heart is as hard as ever, yet so many people say that she is struggling, too. I'll say it again, if she is struggling with the notion of D, she is doing an excellent job hiding it.

I am trying to stay out of the tar pit that is self-pity, but I still struggle with forgiving myself and internalizing all of the reasons why she was so unhappy. I am not dodging them, rather, I just am having a hard time saying "yes, you were right to leave me", even though I know there is truth in that statement.

She commented that she wanted to hear what I told my parents about MY contributions to our situation - which would basically be A LOT of the things I have shared about myself and my upbringing on this board. When it came up again, she said write a letter or an e-mail. Even though that may go against DB, I am thinking about doing it. Not as a "pursuit" behavior, but just to let her known where I am in this process and what I have learned about myself over the four months this saga has rolled on.

it is NOT pursuit! That would be writing her a letter on your own. This is answering HER request for information from you about what YOU think about the marriage

and what you have learned and what insights you might have!!! It means that

maybe she wonders if marriage to you could be better or different...

This is called an opportunity!

I know I like having a family. I never knew how much, but I can see how central that is to my life. Moreover, the strength of the bond that I have developed with my son tells me beyond the shadow of a doubt that I WANT at least one more child in my family. My w knew she did, and I was unsure after 3 years of infertility. Now I know that they give me more in my life than they could ever take. I never learned that as a boy or in my 20's, but it has become so clear.

I know that I want to be a husband, that that gives me purpose, partnership and pride. But I want to be a BETTER husband. One that listens and puts wife and family before any personal selfishness. My friend said in rather frank terms that I never learned how EMOTIONALLY SUPPORT a wife. She was very right. And that is where I failed my current wife. I want to be better for her, but if not her - someone someday. Having a wife and family under one roof means more to me than I ever knew.

Crimson

I have not finished the thread but I sure hope you take care to write this well -from the heart but with some goals in mind....like don't mention having another wife, fwiw but make your remorse clear.

At Retrovaille my h and I had made some breakthroughs and I thought the experience had been worth it when suddenly on Sunday morning (it ended at 5 pm) it got VERY worth it...

My h is not a crier, btw.

Anyhow, He'd been assigned an analogy to use for his emotions then, and He began by saying he felt HE had "wrecked the family car, the money's all gone and all the passengers are on life support, and no one knows if they're going to make it." ---(He meant his r's with me& the kids & he broke down then).

I was so moved Crimson...I stayed with h in part b/c of THAT MOMENT...

so fwiw, that's how this wife felt after a shitload of neglect...

25,

I was on the plane back wondering to myself if I should make an outline for this letter.......like it's my graduate thesis or something. I say that to say I will think long and hard about what I write and how I say it. I think a lot will be rooted in some of my key posts here. It will take me days.

Thank you for sharing the story of your husband's analogy. I think that would have moved me, too. I am hoping I can connect with her a bit better through this or at least validate what she must have been feeling in the year prior to dropping the bomb.

I thought an interesting point was made about this being used against me legally, though I live in a no-fault state. Probably best to write than e-mail.

Anything I should avoid like the plague? Don't want to over-share and I have a habit of that.

CM

Crimson

Crimson

don't make the case for leaving you sound so good that only a fool would take you back.

The emphasis is on your realizations AND CHANGES and how things would be better or different in your marriage now and "from this day forward"--(didn't notice til this year that those words are so significant and they are in our vows.)

Instead of saying " I was too lazy/selfish/clueless to ever cook dinner"

you say "I regret not helping you enough with food preparation and want to participate in making the meals together if you like, OR alternating if you want a break"...offer some new ideas to freshen the family life up like 'take a cooking class together" or making sure you vacation alone as a couple "every year" at a place of her choosing (that'll change if/when you are again partners...) a date night every week or twice a month (be realistic but it has to be DIFFERENT)

but YES you do admit the types of your mistakes without listing them numerically. NO SIN REVIEW, that's for confession. Don't undermine yourself too much but OWN your stuff or she won't believe in you...

MAYBE Admit your internal conflict with this letter, that on one hand you have realized "so many mistakes" that you are concerned if you list them all, you will remind her of things she may not want to relive, OR she had forgotten, and she won't believe you have changed...BUT OTOH you want to show her the realizations AND own up to your mistakes...and maybe admit you are walking a fine line.

Compliment HER in the letter to show how valuable SHE is to you as your wife, not "as a wife" but HER specifically being YOUR wife...got that? it's not that you want "A FAMILY LIFE" but you want a "FAMILY WITH HER"

I don't think the legalities of it matter unless you are discussing a crime or grounds for fault If it's strictly no fault and you are not confessing to a crime then it's likely irrelevant for THOSE purposes...

I'll try to come up with some specific examples...or read your outline here?

bottom line don't be telling her things to EASE YOUR GUILT; tell her things to ease her mind...

make sense?

Thank you, 25. I'm glad you said all of that because I was surely on my way to creating an enumerated list of all that I did wrong. OTOH, do I want this to be "baby come back" letter? If the answer is "yes", at least thematically, I can handle it. I just do not want to sound like I am pleading or begging or simply asking her to come home rather than sharing what I have learned.

Ultimately, I guess I don't want her to react in a manner that says, "this is BS, you're saying all of this to get me to change my mind and I already told you that I'm done!". Granted, I can't control that - but I want her to grasp how serious I am and realize this isn't the same as the letters I left her pre DB.

Crimson

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Crimson

don't make the case for leaving you sound so good that only a fool would take you back.

The emphasis is on your realizations AND CHANGES and how things would be better or different in your marriage now and "from this day forward"--(didn't notice til this year that those words are so significant and they are in our vows.)

Instead of saying " I was too lazy/selfish/clueless to ever cook dinner"

you say "I regret not helping you enough with food preparation and want to participate in making the meals together if you like, OR alternating if you want a break"...offer some new ideas to freshen the family life up like 'take a cooking class together" or making sure you vacation alone as a couple "every year" at a place of her choosing (that'll change if/when you are again partners...) a date night every week or twice a month (be realistic but it has to be DIFFERENT)

but YES you do admit the types of your mistakes without listing them numerically. NO SIN REVIEW, that's for confession. Don't undermine yourself too much but OWN your stuff or she won't believe in you...

MAYBE Admit your internal conflict with this letter, that on one hand you have realized "so many mistakes" that you are concerned if you list them all, you will remind her of things she may not want to relive, OR she had forgotten, and she won't believe you have changed...BUT OTOH you want to show her the realizations AND own up to your mistakes...and maybe admit you are walking a fine line.

Compliment HER in the letter to show how valuable SHE is to you as your wife, not "as a wife" but HER specifically being YOUR wife...got that? it's not that you want "A FAMILY LIFE" but you want a "FAMILY WITH HER"

I don't think the legalities of it matter unless you are discussing a crime or grounds for fault If it's strictly no fault and you are not confessing to a crime then it's likely irrelevant for THOSE purposes...

I'll try to come up with some specific examples...or read your outline here?

bottom line don't be telling her things to EASE YOUR GUILT; tell her things to ease her mind...

make sense?

Crimson - you are such a step by step, detailed kind of guy, like me. Pls don't get bogged down in the letter format but pls speak from the heart - what have you learned...how you can contribute to positive solutions with you newfound insights....how your wife is valuable to you....how you will do the right things for her and your son... thank your wife for having the courage to seek the truth and how you have benefited from this and so will they. Write the letter from a postion of your newly upgraded strength, not from a position of enumerating your failures.

Whatever the outcome, this letter is a chance for you to give her the gift of your strengths, love, willingness to learn, and let her hear you from your soul. If she rejects it, you will have made probably one of the most honest and strength filled overtures in your life and you can know for the rest of your days that you reached such a great place inside yourself.

You're a good man.

Thanks, Rick and 25

Here is a question at large just regarding the content. One of the things that I have been very focused on in the "list of 37" is:

"not discussing the future - they aren't interested in a future with you right now."

Now, on the one hand I see how it is imperative to show how life and marriage to me would be better from "this day forward". On the other hand, I see how it is nearly impossible to make that point without at least "grazing" the future.

I am filled with fear that she just won't believe me and will react poorly and give me the "nice, but it's too late" line. I keep thinking about the lines she has hit me with:

"Maybe your changes will benefit your next relationship"

"It's over! I'm done! And there is nothing you can do or say to change my mind!"

"Give me a rule book on what to do and I'll read it! Better yet - give it to your NEXT wife!"

More recently: "I have NO trust in you at all. I trust that you will do right by our S, but that is it."

I think through those statements and become paralyzed with fear that any outreach on my end will be met with a hail of bullets. Still, I think the time has arrived that I tell her something about where I am right now. I just don't think she will believe me. Should I plan for a negative reaction initially and just hope the core message sinks in gradually?

I'll start thinkingthrough an outline later today......

Crimson

Truth is timeless and eternal. You're saying the truth and it's because that's where you are right now, it's real. She may or may not be there right now, but how can truth hurt?

I just think you shouldn't get bogged down in the DB fine print right now. She asked you to tell her where you are and what you have realized. Share it with her in a positive strong manner. Yes, she might reject it but the truth of what you say is still there nonetheless because you have become that man.

Just give her a gift of your your strengths and who you are nowadays. Like any gift, once you give it, it's their's to do what they will with it.

I think you would agonize for the rest of your days if you didn't take the opportunity here to answer her request.

BTW, I've heard all of these horrible rejections too, and worse. Remember that post by 25 from the WAW explaining to the guy about how she got to be a WAW and how she felt about her H's overtures about how he had changed? We've both lived it. I obviously don't know your wife but I just get the feeling that if you do this for her, and continue to be the strong, moral, evolved person you are she will at some point give some thought to this. In any outcome though you are obviously going to be a great father, citizen, and partner to someone who will be fortunate to be with you.

Also, BTW, I got all the Linda Blair hissing rejections too and I never thought my W would thaw, never could have imagined it, but it does happen eventually. Your strong enough to stick to your life plan and any further contact you have with your W means that's who she will be seeing. A guy only a fool would leave......

Crimson, I echo Rick's remarks. Speak from an unguarded and open heart and put it out there. I imagine not many LBS do not ever get such an opportunity. Best wishes for success.

Crimson,

I sent my W an e-mail like that and it did help, but only because when I sent it she was ready to receive it. You're getting good advice here about how to handle it. Based on the fact that it's risky pursuing behavior, just be sure your W is in a place to receive it versus that being wishful thinking on your part. If you've already promised to send it too late, but if you are projecting that your W wants to receive it then you may want to write it and wait. It's a great think to do but as with so many things in life timing is critical.

As others have said, the tone of the letter should be what you realized, how your values have changed etc., but it needs to be introspective with no "how do you feel about that" or "I'm doing this for you". If she reads any of that between the lines it will hurt more than help. It needs to be for and about you such that anyone could read it and appreciate what it says -- i.e. the reader can't be key to the message.

Accuray

Originally Posted By: Crimson

Thanks, Rick and 25

Here is a question at large just regarding the content. One of the things that I have been very focused on in the "list of 37" is:

"not discussing the future - they aren't interested in a future with you right now."

Now, on the one hand I see how it is imperative to show how life and marriage to me would be better from "this day forward". On the other hand, I see how it is nearly impossible to make that point without at least "grazing" the future.

I am filled with fear that she just won't believe me and will react poorly and give me the "nice, but it's too late" line. I keep thinking about the lines she has hit me with:

"Maybe your changes will benefit your next relationship"

"It's over! I'm done! And there is nothing you can do or say to change my mind!"

"Give me a rule book on what to do and I'll read it! Better yet - give it to your NEXT wife!"

More recently: "I have NO trust in you at all. I trust that you will do right by our S, but that is it."

I think through those statements and become paralyzed with fear that any outreach on my end will be met with a hail of bullets. Still, I think the time has arrived that I tell her something about where I am right now. I just don't think she will believe me. Should I plan for a negative reaction initially and just hope the core message sinks in gradually?

I'll start thinkingthrough an outline later today......

Crimson

Crimson

I lack the time today to go back and read through all your threads so I don't want to forget or overlook your previous failings as a h when you send the letter. If this is semi urgent in terms of time, then refresh my memory on your w's major complaints, please.

IF I recall your situations details correctly, you were into your job too much and didn't help around the house but also you didn't listen well and you refused to have another child with her or you ignored her requests for one.

What else is there from HER point of view? I don't want to minimize it if there's something I've forgotten and when I say neglect, if I recall it right, you mean a lot of it, correct?

And the details of WHY she'd want this letter from you now? I saw the post in which she suggested you write it down and I liked that but now you are undermining that with other comments she's made.

I must have missed a part of your thread around here...can you flesh it out so that we recall what her complaints about you were

what she seems to think of your changes and for sure what backslides have you done that would make her distrust the changes?

What is the TRUST issue here? Dig deep b/c you seem baffled by it. Are you unreliable or deceitful or what?

Your fears about confessing too much, well, that comment makes me think that maybe now that you have bravely faced your failings you are coming up damn short, is that it?

Okay so can you outline what that means so WE can know exactly what it is that you'll be addressing with her. Have been honest here on this board? What am I missing?

Thanks for doing this as I know it won't be easy but then again, think of this refreshing our memory as a rehearsal...

(( ))

Crimson - there was this one posting (in December?) by you where you laid it all out in your typical organized fashion about where you felt you went wrong in the M and what you have learned and would do differently if given the chance. I can't find it right now but thinking back that post alone was incredible. I wished that your W could have read it. It moved me to tears because it was so honest. I'm looking for it.

Accuray -

You bring up a good point. I have often wondered if she truly wants to hear all that I have to say, or if she just wants me to validate her leaving by me documenting where I found my errors to be. This was literally introduced like this (from another thread - I am paraphrasing):

W: I am worried that your parents will say bad things about me in front of S.

Me: I know you feel that way, but please know that I sat them both down individually and let them know what MY role was in our situation and how my actions got us to this point.

W: I would like to hear that.

Me: I would like to tell you. There are a lot of things that I would like to share with you that I have learned about myself over the last four months.

Later discussion in text:

Me: You said you wanted to hear what I thought my contributions were and what I have learned.

W: Just send me an e-mail or write it in a letter.

I don't think I am forcing the discussion, but if someone thinkgs I am let me know! I just feel that based on those brief remarks and where we are right now, it is time (almost time) for me to open up a bit. I have been VERY closed about my feelings in all of this for a long time. Hell, EVERYONE on this board knows more about my mindset right now than my W. Still, to your point Accuray, I don't know if she is ready to accept this message.

I need to find a way to balance letting it not be dependent upon the reader and 25's suggestion of expressing regret/remorse over specific incidents or behaviors that I exhibited over time.

Again, I am just fearful that she will just say "Bullsh*t!" - and write the whole message off as too little too late.

Is my timing off here?

Crimson

25/Rick - I am off to a meeting, but I will fulfill your request shortly. Rick - that is EXACTLY the post I was going to send over. I think it might be in my part 2 or part 3???

Crimson

25 - Here is the first gut-wrenching introspective post that I put up (in my "Part 2"). It should cover some of the things that my wife was unhappy about and my overall role in this madness.

Also, you are correct. I was scared about adoption or going through the IVF process again. Scared to afford it, scared to not have a "plan" for raising 2 kids. We still have a frozen embryo in storage and I would love to use it. After bonding so well with my son, I DO want another one. Me not expressing a strong desire to have baby #2 was a "big wake-up call" for her. She said "You're willing to give up on my dream and I'm not!"

I wouldn't say that I was "too" into my job - I was into it, but I would come home wiped out and just want to veg out, whereas she would want to go the the park with S, cook, etc.

***********

I have been putting a lot of thought into personal introspection these last few days. Naturally, it is difficult because I am finding that it forces you to lay down your defenses and look at your actions through the eyes of your spouse to a certain degree. When the bomb was dropped in September I spent SOOO much time focusing on what was wrong with W (hormones, depression, etc.) - it was a waste. That's not to say that there wasn't/isn't validity to it - but there is nothing I can do about it at all. It was most cheeseless of cheesless tunnels I could find. That said, defenses down - here's some of my introspection about how I landed here.

I was selfish and didn't listen or pay attention to the small signs my W was sending. I operated from the standpoint that as the H, I was supposed to provide and protect and as long as I was doing that I was being a fundamentally good husband. Quote from the W on D day: "you're good at the big things - nice house, providing, finances - but you miss the little things and the little things matter!!". She would ask me to do certain things with her, like walk to the park with the baby and I would claim I was too tired because I just got back from work and just wanted to relax. She always asked me to rub her back and I only did it half the time - the other times I would just say "no" thinking that I was tired, trying to sleep or that she wouldn't do it for me if I asked.

I loved my wife the whole time, but I viewed marriage and fatherhood as responsibility - almost like a wagon that I had to pull. I didn't look at it like I see it now - it's a blessing, a gift, something that needs to be selflessly tended to. With the view I had, it didn't leave a lot of room for sitting back and appreciating my wife for simply being her....for being my wife. It was made worse by the fact that I DO have perfectionist tendencies that drive me. Without intending to, I forced my wife to deal with them. My eye never goes to what's right first - it goes to what I perceive as being wrong first and I go to "fix-it" mode. Stepping outside of myself, I can see how someone else could grow tired of that over time. Eventually, she may have thought that I was doing the same to her - not seeing her pluses, but zeroing in on her minuses and trying to fix them. She has all but said that.

There were moments that if I had an idea in my head, I wouldn't budge if she had a different idea. For example - we have a loft area upstairs in our house. The first time I stepped into the place I INSTANTLY converted it into a small home theater in my head and started making plans. After the baby was born, she wanted to change it to a play area for him with a train table, and other things. I refused to budge - even though we have a big a$$ flat screen and surround sound downstairs. Selfish. No way around it. I wouldn't even give serious thought to making it a play area. A few weeks after she said she wanted a D, I bought a train table and put it in the room and left her a note that I was sorry for being selfigh. But by then it was too late, she was already sleeping in a different room and plotting her escape to her own place. There are other examples I could give of being selfish - but just know that I see it much more clearly now.

We found a church that we both really liked. We would go every now and then - but then she started attending regularly. I didn't go with her. I chose to stay home, not because I had a problem with church but because "I have to be somewhere on time 5 days a week - I just want to enjoy down time on Sunday and not HAVE to be anywhere". I knew she wanted me to go - but I just ignored it. And yes, I would feel guilty - but I didn't change my actions. I put what I wanted above she wanted. Again, it's clear what I did wrong here and I regret it tremendously.

I ignored her subtle suggestions of things she liked me to do for her. We would wake up on Saturday mornings and she would say "Would you make us breakfast?" - I would say no, or worse yet say nothing at all. I knew that she loved when I cooked for her or when we cooked together - I just didn't pay attention.

In moments, she would bravely confess that she suffered from low self esteem and I KNEW that she needed a lot of positive feedback from me. I never gave as much as I should. I felt that she had to learn to love and accept herself - or all of the compliments in the world from me would be of little to no help at all. Clearly there was an opportunity for me to make her feel better about herself and I did not take advantage of it. I let my beliefs override her needs. Looking back, I regret that more than I can say.

I thought that as long as I was providing, giving her a good life and paying the bills that she would see me a a great husband. She was right - I missed all of the little things somehow. I missed all of the things that would have touched her soul because I felt that things that I was doing were already doing that. I was filling a round hole with a square peg and calling it a perfect fit. I was wrong. I was selfish. I was stubborn. I was blind.

I have spent so much time trying to examine what was/is wrong with her that I didn't really look at what I did to drive her away. How does a perfectionist admit that they were a less-than-ideal spouse? I was covering all of the bases that I thought mattered - and not covering the ones that mattered to her. I felt like I did improve her life - but probably just from a material standpoint - and not completely from a "true happiness" standpoint. I thought as long as there was a little blue box from Tiffany under the tree every Christmas that it would show her how much I loved her - when all she really wanted was for me to hold her hand and walk to the park with our son.

I am ashamed of myself that it had to come to this for me to have these realizations come into sharp focus when all I had to do was listen a little bit more. I can try to blame this all on depression and hormones - and maybe there is a component of that involoved, but it doesn't take away from the fact that there were REAL ISSUES driving her actions - depression or not.

So now I am asking the experts on this board - how do I fix this within myself now that I am carrying this grief around? Sure, I want to bring my family back - but I want to be BETTER first. I want her to believe that I am better and want to be back together - I just don't know how to get there from here.

I am not beating myself up here - just trying to be as honest as possible.

*****************

Also Helpful.....

Let me preface this by saying that I don't "blame" anyone for who or how I am. I will simply explain what my influences were and what has always been expected of me.

I was raised to not accept failure - ever - under any circumstances. I was literally told frequently that "failure is not an option" - neither was "partially done" or "almost". From the time I was old enough to remember, my dad always used to say this to me: "Once a job you've first begun, never leave it till it's done. Be it great or ever so small, do it right or not at all". Perfection, or the pursuit of it, was established as a criteria for success. From how well I did weekly chores to my performance in school - the expectation was perfection. Professionally and academically that has served me well. The side effects that it produced have not. As mentioned in previous post above, my eye ALWAYS goes straight to the imperfection in something with an intent to fix it. I literally have a physical reaction inside of me with I perceive something is "out of order" or wrong and I immediately try to fix it. It could be as simple as a picture hanging crooked or my closet being disorganized - I feel as though I have to make it perfect.

Soooo, how does that manifest in a relationship? Well, obviously the resulting OCD made my wife crazy - and she took it personally as if I was saying she failed to do something so now I have to do it. But more interestingly, it made me strive for this ideal of perfection as a spouse. Which, in and of itself, is noble - if and ONLY if you are pursuing that perfection as it has been defined by your spouse. In my case, I was seeking it as defined by my parents. Provide, protect....those were the big two from my father. Neatness and organization - those were the contributions from my mother. THOSE became my yard stick - and as long as I thought I was doing those (provide and protect especially) I thought I was avoiding be a failure as a father and husband. Why? Because the people that I got those marching orders from told be from birth that "failure was not an option".

So, if I put myself in my wife's shoes I can see the frustration when her set of criteria for being a good H is somewhat different. Remember - she said "you're good at the big things - but you are awful and the small things, and the small tihngs matter". She also probably felt that nothing she did measured up in my eyes. So I guess the concise answer to your question is that I had those behaviors because I thought that was how to not fail as a husband - to be perfect according to some set of criteria established by my family. They've been married 40 years - how could they be wrong, right? I thought I was a great husband because I did what I thought made a great husband....not what my wife thought made a great husband. Granted, she appreciated the things that I DID do - but it's like eating french fries without ketchup. You love the fries, but if you don't have the ketchup it isn't quite right...still good, but not "right". Well, I would guess that my W got tired of plain fries.

It's as if I was telling myself that I didn't need to make breakfast, walk in the park, or give up things I wanted because I was BEING a good husband. Selfish. Just selfish.

The irony is that in the pursuit of being a perfect husband, I was largely imperfect to my W over time. Over the last 3 months I have had nothing but time to contemplate these things and lament my mistakes. It all appears so clearly now - I know what I need (or needed) to do and I don't have the chance because my W reached her breaking point with me. Now I am in a nice, big empty house that is serving as a reminder that you can acheive all you want, but without someone to bring it to it is meaningless. I hope that life grants me a second chance with my family to be a better husband.

****************

Worth noting....

I will also say this - if there has been one benefit, one MASSIVE 180 that has come of all of this, it has been with my son. I have always loved him - but my W was always the primary caretaker and did everything with him. Three or four months ago (still being a new father) I was scared to take him out on my own, didn't do diapers very well, didn't manage his meals, the list goes on. Now I kind of feel like Mr. Mom in a lot of regards and I like it. He calls for me, falls asleep on me, brings me books to read to him - it's been awesome. We are a team. I take him to daycare and pick him up, buy his clothes, the two of us go to dinner together - it's a total 180. I am a better dad than I thought I was ever capable of being. Well, I should say I am BECOMING a better dad than I thought I was capable of being. In return, he has given me so much love and joy without even knowing it that I get choked up thinking about it. I can only hope that this situation will eventually grant me an opportunity to be a better husband to my wife one day as well.

**************

Did not MENTION changes to her, got this:

"I am glad to hear of your transformations. I wish I could�ve been instrumental in supporting them along the way, It is interesting to see that once I was gone, you were able to make changes. Whatever the case, I�m glad to hear about them."

*************

....And Finally......
Here is my problem - all of the issues that were problematic in our relationship have been my focus, W was exceptionally efficient in pointing them out. What I am struggling with is how to fix them if they centered around her and we are now living apart.

For example, she has said:

1. "You nit-pick me from the time you come home to the time you go to bed"

2. "There is no love in this house"

3. "Living with you is like having a boss"

4 ."We want different things out of life"

5. "You treat life like it's a dress rehearsal"

I have had plenty of time to reflect on these, and though I do not agree with all of them (any of them, really) I can see how she arrived at some of these conclusions. How do I 180 these if they are so very much centered around her perception of me?

Here are the things I could have done better relating to the list above:

1.) I could have learned to live with imperfections a little better. Though I don't think it nit-picked, she felt I did - so I could have held my tongue on matters that didn't really weigh much. She would say I was nit-picking her if I picked up the baby's toys when I came home, or if I asked her if she fed the dog when I got home from work. I don't THINK that's nit-picking, but if I work off of her perceptions then I could have just accepted that she had everything under control and not ask anything potentially "judging" when I got home. I will admit that I am a bit of an OCD neat freak. 180 = relax and accept the imperfections in life as evidence that someone that loves you is there.

2.) That one I just don't get. Every night I fell asleep with my arms around her and woke up the same way. I would kiss her and our son good-bye in the morning and rush home at the end of the day to be with them. I spoiled her when I could and tried to tend to all of her needs. Maybe I just missed the mark on what she interpreted as "love". What I could have done differently is tell her that I love her every day, show more affection, hold her hand more in puplic (never really did that much), bring flowers every now and then, rub her back whenever she asked, and so on. The 180 here would be all of those things above, but she isn't around anymore. Even before she moved out she wasn't interested in it. This is one that centers 100% around her that I can't 180. The best I can do is try to show as much love to our son as I can, and that is easy to do.

3.) This one is very related to #1. I think she believed that everything had to be in state of perfection for me to be happy and if it wasn't, I would blame her and be angry. This just wasn't true in my eyes, but I see her perception and need to deal with it. The 180 here would be to relax and learn to live with things that are not perfect. To know that the counters won't always be clean and the cabinets might just always be a mess - and just let it go. How do I 180 this in her eyes being in her own condo now?

4.) This one is matter of perception as well. We spent three years focusing on the one things that we both wanted - a child. We went through a brutal infertility process that had 4 failed procedures and one successful one (thank God). That process was so intense and emotion-packed we had little time to focus on anything else we wanted in life. Then when the baby came, we were so wrapped up in being new parents that we didn't talk about what else we wanted in life (travel, retirement, style of life, etc.). She had only expressed that she wanted another baby and I did not immediately agree (though I did not disagree, either). In an argument before she moved out I asked her what she wanted out of life and she just snapped "thanks for asking after 8 years" - and left the house. The 180 here could be (or could have been) sitting down when "the iron is cold" and asking her excatly what it was she wanted out of life and try to map a plan to get there together. Sad thing is, I would like another child too - and we seems miles away from there.

5.) I think this was her way of saying that "you think you have all the time in the world to live" - I.E. - let's hurry up and have another baby. I will admit that it is hard for me to make big life decisions without having a full plan in front of me. It is nearly impossible to create an 18 year plan for a child before it is even born. So I always wondered "how will we pay fo college", "will we have enough money", "will I be a good dad" - and so on. This wasn't just with the baby, but I was cautious and conservative with a lot of my judgements and that might have driven her nuts. The 180 here would have been just to simply accept living without all the answers and having faith that things would work out in the end. I should have put myself farther out on the branch than I did, but I was terrfied of failure as husband and father.

So even in her absence I am trying to work on those 180s, but without her around it is difficult. Not just because she is not there to witness, but because so many of them are directly related to her. Right now communication is highly limited so I am at a loss for exactly how to handle things right now.

I will focus on myself, but I would be a liar if part of me didn't want her to see changes. I want her to believe that coming home will be better than living alone....I want her to believe that it will be better than what she left, but I just don't know how to get that across to her. Right now, I feel like she hates me and the lack of communication and contact only pulls her farther and farther away from me - not towards me like I would have hoped. Maybe it will in time. I am hopeful.

Forgot to mention - W also said that I was too disconnected from the family. She said that I was on my iPad, BlackBerry, Mac too much. Granted, she did the exact same things more or less - but again, I can see her perspective.

There was a debate earlier this year in which she asked me to stop bringing my iPad/BlackBerry to bed. For several weeks I stopped. Then I would come upstairs to go to bed and she would be typing away on her BlackBerry. To me that said "this isn't a problem anymore" - so I brought mine back to bed. Never should have done that, because she was angry about it and let me know during the D-bomb drop in September.

She said I never sat at the dinner table with her and our son. Further supporting her claim that I was disconnected. I can see how she would see it that way - but whenever there were actual "dinners" where we cooked I was always at the table. If I walked through the door at 5:45 and she was feeding herself with one hand and feeding the baby with the other and there was really nothing made for dinner - sure, I would grab a sandwich and sit on the couch and watch the news. I retrospect, I could have done that differently if I new that it was that upsetting to her. Notwithstanding, any time she asked me to come to the table I always did.

I never FELT disconnected from them - I loved being around them, they were the center of my world. However, I can see how she could see it that way. My 180 now is to spend as much time engaged to my son as I can when he is with me. Hence the hikes, trips to the zoo, etc. - I make it about him as much as I can. Again, the down side is that even though it is a good change that I am making for myself, she will never have a chance to see it - unless I just go and trumpet it in her face, which I will not do.

Wow Crimson.....there's so much in this post! You really have done an amazing amount of introspection and have the guts to be honest with yourself.

I see so much of myself in how you describe yourself and how your life experiences lead to how you treated your W. Like you I saw achievement and perfection as the noble goal in life and thought that it could only lead to a successful happy family. Didn't Hitler strive for this too? So I guess it doesn't always play out for the best! For me these were ways out of a background of poverty and violence and my dedication to these principles did just that but so much of what you describe was me too. Combine all that with me and the three boys and my wife got steamrolled over time and as her own issues affected her for years it became a volatile mix.

But re the ltr to your wife I don't know if you want to lay so much detail on her. I think she might recoil at so much info. I'm just one guy with an opinion but I think the spirit of what you want to tell is more important than a burst of examples. You know what she was unhappy about. Addressit with as the evolved person you have become. Let her know what you have learned and why it is important. She wants to know where you are so tell her.
She may not accept it now but because its true she will respect it and you at some point.

I've been there Crimson, have poured my heart out and felt my W heard none of it, but they do hear it even if it takes time for them to acknowledge it.

I'll give this a whirl...it's good stuff Crimson.

and you have a fine line to walk. Sounds like your main fear or the bigger one is that she'll call you on the BS or say "too little, too late" VS listing so many "inconvenient truths" that she says "now YOU get why I'm outta here".

I think you may want to lean against saying too little, like 60/40- so that if you do blow this it won't be b/c you held back. Make sense?

Originally Posted By: Crimson

25 - Here is the first gut-wrenching introspective post that I put up (in my "Part 2"). It should cover some of the things that my wife was unhappy about and my overall role in this madness.

Also, you are correct. I was scared about adoption or going through the IVF process again. Scared to afford it, scared to not have a "plan" for raising 2 kids. We still have a frozen embryo in storage and I would love to use it. After bonding so well with my son, I DO want another one. Me not expressing a strong desire to have baby #2 was a "big wake-up call" for her. She said "You're willing to give up on my dream and I'm not!"

I wouldn't say that I was "too" into my job - I was into it, but I would come home wiped out and just want to veg out, whereas she would want to go the the park with S, cook, etc.

***********
so that^^^ can be an example you give that isn't too horrible (pretty common complaint from WAWs) of being selfish or not meeting her household co-parenting needs of your w.

I have been putting a lot of thought into personal introspection these last few days. Naturally, it is difficult because I am finding that it forces you to lay down your defenses and look at your actions through the eyes of your spouse to a certain degree. When the bomb was dropped in September I spent SOOO much time focusing on what was wrong with W (hormones, depression, etc.) - it was a waste. That's not to say that there wasn't/isn't validity to it - but there is nothing I can do about it at all. It was most cheeseless of cheesless tunnels I could find.

well said. Does not matter if you have no control...b/c you have none!

That said, defenses down - here's some of my introspection about how I landed here.

I was selfish and didn't listen or pay attention to the small signs my W was sending. I operated from the standpoint that as the H, I was supposed to provide and protect and as long as I was doing that I was being a fundamentally good husband. Quote from the W on D day: "you're good at the big things - nice house, providing, finances - but you miss the little things and the little things matter!!".

How about validating ^^ this for her and give a FEW examples (no more than 3) of what you'd DO DIFFERENTLY if you had the chance? The examples below are good, safe innocuous but specific enough to me.

She would ask me to do certain things with her, like walk to the park with the baby and I would claim I was too tired because I just got back from work and just wanted to relax. She always asked me to rub her back and I only did it half the time - the other times I would just say "no" thinking that I was tired, trying to sleep or that she wouldn't do it for me if I asked.

I loved my wife the whole time, but I viewed marriage and fatherhood as responsibility - almost like a wagon that I had to pull. I didn't look at it like I see it now - it's a blessing, a gift, something that needs to be selflessly tended to.

TELL HER THIS^^^... to ME it's quite lovely and sounds genuine and insightful AND notice that it ends with you saying a positive.
See if you can keep THAT THEME going...spotting the flaw and then turning it around into a positive b/c NOW you get it and NOW you'll be different.

She MAY believe it's too late but she will NOT think it's too little. And there's no way she won't wish, perhaps wistfully OR ruefully, that you took so long.

But if there's no OM yet, or if there is but he hasn't taken her heart, I cannot imagine her not wanting to try again.

I really think it's primarily about her believing you really will be different for good.

You could say "and there are other things I'd like to do differently that I don't even know about yet! Yes I do hope to learn about more things YOU want to do & learn about together. I want to know you better more and more and discover together the "little things" out there that we can do together with our kidS..."? If you feel any of this is authentic or rings true for you, go for it. You may be better off saying that part in person IF you get the chance and it seems to flow.

With the view I had, it didn't leave a lot of room for sitting back and appreciating my wife for simply being her....for being my wife. It was made worse by the fact that I DO have perfectionist tendencies that drive me. Without intending to, I forced my wife to deal with them. My eye never goes to what's right first - it goes to what I perceive as being wrong first and I go to "fix-it" mode. Stepping outside of myself, I can see how someone else could grow tired of that over time. Eventually, she may have thought that I was doing the same to her - not seeing her pluses, but zeroing in on her minuses and trying to fix them. She has all but said that.

Maybe you can tie this flaw into the way you were raised below (where you discuss failure not being an option) and show that you get where you got it AND THAT's was step to repairing it and you have taken that step AND more...towards repairing it...

There were moments that if I had an idea in my head, I wouldn't budge if she had a different idea. For example - we have a loft area upstairs in our house. The first time I stepped into the place I INSTANTLY converted it into a small home theater in my head and started making plans. After the baby was born, she wanted to change it to a play area for him with a train table, and other things. I refused to budge - even though we have a big a$$ flat screen and surround sound downstairs. Selfish. No way around it. I wouldn't even give serious thought to making it a play area. A few weeks after she said she wanted a D, I bought a train table and put it in the room and left her a note that I was sorry for being selfigh. But by then it was too late, she was already sleeping in a different room and plotting her escape to her own place. There are other examples I could give of being selfish - but just know that I see it much more clearly now.

We found a church that we both really liked. We would go every now and then - but then she started attending regularly. I didn't go with her. I chose to stay home, not because I had a problem with church but because "I have to be somewhere on time 5 days a week - I just want to enjoy down time on Sunday and not HAVE to be anywhere". I knew she wanted me to go - but I just ignored it. And yes, I would feel guilty - but I didn't change my actions. I put what I wanted above she wanted. Again, it's clear what I did wrong here and I regret it tremendously.

are you going back to church NOW on your own? IF so, let her know, if not, why not?

I ignored her subtle suggestions of things she liked me to do for her. We would wake up on Saturday mornings and she would say "Would you make us breakfast?" - I would say no, or worse yet say nothing at all. I knew that she loved when I cooked for her or when we cooked together - I just didn't pay attention.

In moments, she would bravely confess that she suffered from low self esteem and I KNEW that she needed a lot of positive feedback from me. I never gave as much as I should. I felt that she had to learn to love and accept herself - or all of the compliments in the world from me would be of little to no help at all. Clearly there was an opportunity for me to make her feel better about herself and I did not take advantage of it. I let my beliefs override her needs. Looking back, I regret that more than I can say.

I'm not going to kick you when you are down but THIS^^^ is a big deal for any and ALL women, fyi. Not just low self esteem women. Every woman wants her man to think AND SPEAK well of her TO HER...don't skimp on the compliments...gosh they matter. IF you marry someone else don't forget this. THIS is among the most seriously hurtful things and I don't think it would take a lot of effort on your end to fix. I mean we're really only discussing positive 5 minutes a day spread out over the day...You can do that with no problem IF you remind yourself and put a little tiny thought and effort into it. It matters so much.

I thought that as long as I was providing, giving her a good life and paying the bills that she would see me a a great husband. She was right - I missed all of the little things somehow. I missed all of the things that would have touched her soul because I felt that things that I was doing were already doing that. I was filling a round hole with a square peg and calling it a perfect fit. I was wrong. I was selfish. I was stubborn. I was blind.

this ^^ may be the way to close after you've said your peace about the flaws and tied in positives/changes, and then add something about how you would do so many things differently if you had it to do over.

Let her worry that you WILL do it differently next time....without her and yet let her know that choice is really hers... If SHE wants to be the beneficiary of all these efforts and improvements that'd be so great and super for your son...you want that too...

I have spent so much time trying to examine what was/is wrong with her that I didn't really look at what I did to drive her away. How does a perfectionist admit that they were a less-than-ideal spouse? I was covering all of the bases that I thought mattered - and not covering the ones that mattered to her. I felt like I did improve her life - but probably just from a material standpoint - and not completely from a "true happiness" standpoint. I thought as long as there was a little blue box from Tiffany under the tree every Christmas that it would show her how much I loved her - when all she really wanted was for me to hold her hand and walk to the park with our son.

IF you have read "The Five Love Languages" tell her...and if you haven't yet, how come?? Buddy that's a good book to get no matter what.

I am ashamed of myself that it had to come to this for me to have these realizations come into sharp focus when all I had to do was listen a little bit more.

maybe say that^^^^ and THEN tie in the changes like use that paragraph as the transition to the positive changes...

I can try to blame this all on depression and hormones - and maybe there is a component of that involoved, but it doesn't take away from the fact that there were REAL ISSUES driving her actions - depression or not.

um, yeah I'd steer AWAY from this ^^ and remember that if SHE mentions it, 90% of women who take ADs are married to men considered to be critical...just fyi

So now I am asking the experts on this board - how do I fix this within myself now that I am carrying this grief around? Sure, I want to bring my family back - but I want to be BETTER first. I want her to believe that I am better and want to be back together - I just don't know how to get there from here.

I am not beating myself up here - just trying to be as honest as possible.

*****************
well ARE YOU BETTER YET? Are you going to a church or giving more of yourself somewhere? I guess you are with your son so there is that

and SHE seems to believe or has heard of your "transformation" somewhere.
Also Helpful.....

Let me preface this by saying that I don't "blame" anyone for who or how I am. I will simply explain what my influences were and what has always been expected of me.

I was raised to not accept failure - ever - under any circumstances. I was literally told frequently that "failure is not an option" - neither was "partially done" or "almost". From the time I was old enough to remember, my dad always used to say this to me: "Once a job you've first begun, never leave it till it's done. Be it great or ever so small, do it right or not at all". Perfection, or the pursuit of it, was established as a criteria for success.

This ^^ ties in with the perfectionism you are working on letting go of. The examples you give below are good ones of how you were raised and the lens through which you viewed the world. THANKS TO HER your life will be easier on YOU now, as well your son and "others in your life" b/c you are actively working on letting this go with your t"....if that's true and let's hope for your sake it is.

From how well I did weekly chores to my performance in school - the expectation was perfection. Professionally and academically that has served me well. The side effects that it produced have not. As mentioned in previous post above, my eye ALWAYS goes straight to the imperfection in something with an intent to fix it. I literally have a physical reaction inside of me with I perceive something is "out of order" or wrong and I immediately try to fix it. It could be as simple as a picture hanging crooked or my closet being disorganized - I feel as though I have to make it perfect.

Soooo, how does that manifest in a relationship? Well, obviously the resulting OCD made my wife crazy - and she took it personally as if I was saying she failed to do something so now I have to do it. But more interestingly, it made me strive for this ideal of perfection as a spouse. Which, in and of itself, is noble - if and ONLY if you are pursuing that perfection as it has been defined by your spouse.

um, even IF SHE sought perfection I would argue it's unhealthy. There is no way she would not apply that to others and it's arrogant to assume we can attain it anyhow. No theological arguments here so much as just saying she'd never be happy if perfection were her goal. Not healthy and not noble imo...just be your best...and when you fall as we all do, get up again.
It's not how often you fall that counts, but how many times you get back up that shows character and is noble. IMO

In my case, I was seeking it as defined by my parents. Provide, protect....those were the big two from my father. Neatness and organization - those were the contributions from my mother. THOSE became my yard stick - and as long as I thought I was doing those (provide and protect especially) I thought I was avoiding be a failure as a father and husband. Why? Because the people that I got those marching orders from told be from birth that "failure was not an option".

So, if I put myself in my wife's shoes I can see the frustration when her set of criteria for being a good H is somewhat different. Remember - she said "you're good at the big things - but you are awful and the small things, and the small tihngs matter". She also probably felt that nothing she did measured up in my eyes. So I guess the concise answer to your question is that I had those behaviors because I thought that was how to not fail as a husband - to be perfect according to some set of criteria established by my family. They've been married 40 years - how could they be wrong, right? I thought I was a great husband because I did what I thought made a great husband....not what my wife thought made a great husband.

this is nicely put.^^

Granted, she appreciated the things that I DID do - but it's like eating french fries without ketchup. You love the fries, but if you don't have the ketchup it isn't quite right...still good, but not "right". Well, I would guess that my W got tired of plain fries.

It's as if I was telling myself that I didn't need to make breakfast, walk in the park, or give up things I wanted because I was BEING a good husband. Selfish. Just selfish.
you don't have to repeat this so often to her.

The irony is that in the pursuit of being a perfect husband, I was largely imperfect to my W over time. Over the last 3 months I have had nothing but time to contemplate these things and lament my mistakes. It all appears so clearly now

-IF IT appears to be going badly or she needs to hear what you learned and you only have 20 seconds, say this below stuff...

I know what I need (or needed) to do and I don't have the chance because my W reached her breaking point with me. Now I am in a nice, big empty house that is serving as a reminder that you can acheive all you want, but without someone to bring it to it is meaningless. I hope that life grants me a second chance with my family to be a better husband.
****************

Worth noting....

I will also say this - if there has been one benefit, one MASSIVE 180 that has come of all of this, it has been with my son. I have always loved him - but my W was always the primary caretaker and did everything with him. Three or four months ago (still being a new father) I was scared to take him out on my own, didn't do diapers very well, didn't manage his meals, the list goes on. Now I kind of feel like Mr. Mom in a lot of regards and I like it. He calls for me, falls asleep on me, brings me books to read to him - it's been awesome. We are a team. I take him to daycare and pick him up, buy his clothes, the two of us go to dinner together - it's a total 180. I am a better dad than I thought I was ever capable of being. Well, I should say I am BECOMING a better dad than I thought I was capable of being. In return, he has given me so much love and joy without even knowing it that I get choked up thinking about it. I can only hope that this situation will eventually grant me an opportunity to be a better husband to my wife one day as well.

**************THIS ^^^ MUST BE SAID TO HER NEARLY VERBATIM

Did not MENTION changes to her, got this:

"I am glad to hear of your transformations. I wish I could�ve been instrumental in supporting them along the way, It is interesting to see that once I was gone, you were able to make changes. Whatever the case, I�m glad to hear about them."

*************

....And Finally......
Here is my problem - all of the issues that were problematic in our relationship have been my focus, W was exceptionally efficient in pointing them out. What I am struggling with is how to fix them if they centered around her and we are now living apart.

For example, she has said:

1. "You nit-pick me from the time you come home to the time you go to bed"

***I think she feels this way based on your OCD and your perfectionist tendencies which manifest itself how? By commenting negatively or commenting in a way that would usually NOT be seen as complimentary...plus you with held compliements and positive feedback from her

Sooo, imo, it makes sense that she feels this way b/c most of your comments or their ratio of bad to good, has to have been mainly negative...

2. "There is no love in this house" See above...one of her love languages sound like words of affirmation....and the other is quality time together...why do you say her LL was gift giving? I'm curious why you believe that or IF you now see it differently...

3. "Living with you is like having a boss" See above and NOTE that you are different NOW so #1-3 don't really count anymore...right?

4 ."We want different things out of life" ahh but You both want another child now...that's something you both want...and time together and the 'little things' too...so what else?

5. "You treat life like it's a dress rehearsal" I've said this to my and for me it means thtat you defer gratification too much/too long, so that you'll turn 50 and realize that your knee hurts too much to take that hiking vacation you talked about for years... Well, demonstrate how you are different now by taking time to smell the roses.

I have had plenty of time to reflect on these, and though I do not agree with all of them (any of them, really) I can see how she arrived at some of these conclusions. How do I 180 these if they are so very much centered around her perception of me?

I see how she can have her perceptions as described above. They are along the same lines as things you have identified except not having love in the house. YOu FELT Love but the expressions that came from your mouth were not mostly or even often, complimentary.

She sought positive feedback from you and you shut that down. But you were fine telling her where she was not meeting THE OFFICIAL standards as established by your parents...who, btw, I do NOT want to invite to my house b/c lowering standards for housework is among the healthiest things I've ever done!

Here are the things I could have done better relating to the list above:

1.) I could have learned to live with imperfections a little better. Though I don't think it nit-picked, she felt I did - so I could have held my tongue on matters that didn't really weigh much. She would say I was nit-picking her if I picked up the baby's toys when I came home, or if I asked her if she fed the dog when I got home from work. I don't THINK that's nit-picking, but if I work off of her perceptions then I could have just accepted that she had everything under control and not ask anything potentially "judging" when I got home. I will admit that I am a bit of an OCD neat freak. 180 = relax and accept the imperfections in life as evidence that someone that loves you is there.
say this^^^ to her (and say it to yourself, every day..especially before you walk into the house.)

2.) That one I just don't get. Every night I fell asleep with my arms around her and woke up the same way. I would kiss her and our son good-bye in the morning and rush home at the end of the day to be with them. I spoiled her when I could and tried to tend to all of her needs.

i think you mean you gave her things. That's YOUR love language of giving love...maybe not what she needed OR maybe not what she needed, given that other parts were missing.

Maybe I just missed the mark on what she interpreted as "love". What I could have done differently is tell her that I love her every day, show more affection, hold her hand more in puplic (never really did that much), bring flowers every now and then, rub her back whenever she asked, and so on. The 180 here would be all of those things above, but she isn't around anymore. Even before she moved out she wasn't interested in it. This is one that centers 100% around her that I can't 180. The best I can do is try to show as much love to our son as I can, and that is easy to do.

I think you are right here^^^....so do it for him...

3.) This one is very related to #1. I think she believed that everything had to be in state of perfection for me to be happy and if it wasn't, I would blame her and be angry. This just wasn't true in my eyes, but I see her perception and need to deal with it. The 180 here would be to relax and learn to live with things that are not perfect. To know that the counters won't always be clean and the cabinets might just always be a mess - and just let it go. How do I 180 this in her eyes being in her own condo now?

idk...let her see some less neatness in your place?

4.) This one is matter of perception as well. We spent three years focusing on the one things that we both wanted - a child. We went through a brutal infertility process that had 4 failed procedures and one successful one (thank God). That process was so intense and emotion-packed we had little time to focus on anything else we wanted in life. Then when the baby came, we were so wrapped up in being new parents that we didn't talk about what else we wanted in life (travel, retirement, style of life, etc.). She had only expressed that she wanted another baby and I did not immediately agree (though I did not disagree, either). In an argument before she moved out I asked her what she wanted out of life and she just snapped "thanks for asking after 8 years" - and left the house. The 180 here could be (or could have been) sitting down when "the iron is cold" and asking her excatly what it was she wanted out of life and try to map a plan to get there together. Sad thing is, I would like another child too - and we seems miles away from there.

maybe that^^^ can be said somewhere along the way...

5.) I think this was her way of saying that "you think you have all the time in the world to live" - I.E. - let's hurry up and have another baby. I will admit that it is hard for me to make big life decisions without having a full plan in front of me.

sure must be hard to be you. our son was born prematurely...by 5 years...you just deal with life as it comes with your "outlined plan" as your guide. It can't be rigid...or you'll fail OR feel you're failing and that's no way to live.

It is nearly impossible to create an 18 year plan for a child before it is even born.

Crimson...this is me personally talking and maybe I'm not hearing you right but to me this is, of course, IMPOSSIBLE. What does that even mean?

What if your next child is musically gifted? What happens to your "athletic plans" then? What if she's clumsy? Or bad at math?

IMO, All you have to "plan" for with kids-

is putting food on the table and making sure they know that they are loved, valuable people in the world. Lose the illusions of perfection or uber planning.

So I always wondered "how will we pay fo college", "will we have enough money", "will I be a good dad" - and so on. This wasn't just with the baby, but I was cautious and conservative with a lot of my judgements and that might have driven her nuts. The 180 here would have been just to simply accept living without all the answers and having faith that things would work out in the end.

YES YES to this^^^

I should have put myself farther out on the branch than I did, but I was terrfied of failure as husband and father.

So even in her absence I am trying to work on those 180s, but without her around it is difficult. Not just because she is not there to witness, but because so many of them are directly related to her. Right now communication is highly limited so I am at a loss for exactly how to handle things right now.

I will focus on myself, but I would be a liar if part of me didn't want her to see changes. I want her to believe that coming home will be better than living alone....I want her to believe that it will be better than what she left, but I just don't know how to get that across to her.

Tell her that^^^ and ask her how you can do it...

Right now, I feel like she hates me and the lack of communication and contact only pulls her farther and farther away from me - not towards me like I would have hoped. Maybe it will in time. I am hopeful.

Forgot to mention - W also said that I was too disconnected from the family. She said that I was on my iPad, BlackBerry, Mac too much. Granted, she did the exact same things more or less - but again, I can see her perspective.

There was a debate earlier this year in which she asked me to stop bringing my iPad/BlackBerry to bed. For several weeks I stopped. Then I would come upstairs to go to bed and she would be typing away on her BlackBerry. To me that said "this isn't a problem anymore" - so I brought mine back to bed. Never should have done that, because she was angry about it and let me know during the D-bomb drop in September.

She said I never sat at the dinner table with her and our son. Further supporting her claim that I was disconnected. I can see how she would see it that way - but whenever there were actual "dinners" where we cooked I was always at the table. If I walked through the door at 5:45 and she was feeding herself with one hand and feeding the baby with the other and there was really nothing made for dinner - sure, I would grab a sandwich and sit on the couch and watch the news. I retrospect, I could have done that differently if I new that it was that upsetting to her. Notwithstanding, any time she asked me to come to the table I always did.

I never FELT disconnected from them - I loved being around them, they were the center of my world. However, I can see how she could see it that way. My 180 now is to spend as much time engaged to my son as I can when he is with me. Hence the hikes, trips to the zoo, etc. - I make it about him as much as I can. Again, the down side is that even though it is a good change that I am making for myself, she will never have a chance to see it - unless I just go and trumpet it in her face, which I will not do.

Seriously, can we get 25 a Nobel nomination or something?

Speaking of 5 Love Languages, starting that one tonight now that I've finished (and returned) DR.

ooops I missed something...

Originally Posted By: Crimson

25 - Here is the first gut-wrenching introspective post that I put up (in my "Part 2"). It should cover some of the things that my wife was unhappy about and my overall role in this madness.

***********
I was selfish and didn't listen or pay attention to the small signs my W was sending. --- Quote from the W on D day: "you're good at the big things - nice house, providing, finances - but you miss the little things and the little things matter!!". She would ask me to do certain things with her, like walk to the park with the baby and I would claim I was too tired because I just got back from work and just wanted to relax. She always asked me to rub her back and I only did it half the time - the other times I would just say "no" thinking that I was tired, trying to sleep or that she wouldn't do it for me if I asked.

Do You now see, that if she's a SAHM she's been alone all day with the baby, or at work away from the baby? So in her day, she spends chunks of time imagining in her fantasy world that you and she are pushing s on the swing and she's glowing with another child within, and you are coming home and helping her and you are a happy EXPRESSIVE family unit - not separated or distanced detached people, who withhold compliments b/c you want your spouse to teach themselves to feel good, etc...or living semi separate lives b/c Blackberries Ipods intervening

...NOT responding with silence or refusal to her questions "when are we having another child?" questions...or freaking out about the costs of the child...instead of seeing the blessings. Get that insight across to her.

(&btw I'm one of 9 kids and we ALL put ourselves through college and 4 went to law school too, and 3 RNs and an MD without a cent from family.)

*****
Speaking of blackberries & cells in social situations...there's a new thing out here with those at dinner or at a bar or lounge. YOU could do this at dinner.

Both of you put your cell phones or blackberries, ETC in the middle of the table and either turn it off OR if you are the first person to answer a text or call, you pick up the whole tab.

At home I'd convert that "penalty" into "oh boy, you owe me a 15 minute back rub b/c you checked your phone DURING dinner first..."

Just a thought

There were moments that if I had an idea in my head, I wouldn't budge if she had a different idea. For example - we have a loft area upstairs in our house. The first time I stepped intothe place I INSTANTLY converted it into a small home theater in my head and started making plans. After the baby was born, she wanted to change it to a play area for him with a train table, and other things.

IMO & this is just a thought--her idea made sense practically too b/c it would mean his toys are not in the living room (so you wont' comment about putting them away...)and they're out of the way

and a loft is perfect for that reason plus although it's "his" play area, it's an open one, so for safety reasons it probably also appealed to her.

I refused to budge - A few weeks after she said she wanted a D, I bought a train table and put it in the room and left her a note that I was sorry for being selfigh. But by then it was too late she was already sleeping in a different room and plotting her escape to her own place. There are other examples I could give of being selfish - but just know that I see it much more clearly now.

You could give THAT example and that last line, like "there are other examples but just know that I get it, I see it much more clearly now and feel ashamed that i didn't earlier".

I don't want you to grovel but the word "ashamed" would not hurt you to say once or twice. It means deep remorse to me...but I'm a wordsmith.

She sounds like she wants to believe you get it, but she fears you won't last with this. You must reach her enough so she can see what is in your heart NOW and that it won't likely disappear soon.

Do YOU FEEL THAT WAY? IOW how far along your journey are you?

you say you "want to be better" and I believe you. But how close are you from where you were, compared to where you want to be? We are all works in progress but it'd be good to know your viewpoint of it.

Clearly there was an opportunity for me to make her feel better about herself and I did not take advantage of it. I let my beliefs override her needs. Looking back, I regret that more than I can say.

but you CAN say that now...if you do, use it to give examples of honestly believed feedback to her about what you love or admire about her. You can list that she's a good mother/wife but you must must list other traits b/c most women think they are good moms and were good wives. What's unique about HER? Why did you marry HER? tell her those authentically unique things that you feel...

and let her know that your belief system was NOT more important to you than her needs- but that it mistakenly made you believe you were helping her more by forcing her to do her own self esteem hoisting up...

I have spent so much time trying to examine what was/is wrong with her that I didn't really look at what I did to drive her away.

and not completely from a "true happiness" standpoint. I thought as long as there was a little blue box from Tiffany under the tree every Christmas that it would show her how much I loved her - when all she really wanted was for me to hold her hand and walk to the park with our son.

I am ashamed of myself

So now I am asking the experts on this board - how do I fix this within myself now that I am carrying this grief around? Sure, I want to bring my family back - but I want to be BETTER first. I want her to believe that I am better and want to be back together - I just don't know how to get there from here.

are you seeing a therapist or pastor or priest? Going to church? Joining a men's support group? (Don't scoff, I hear some macho guys attend and learn and lean...) but how are you working on yourself now?

I am not beating myself up here - just trying to be as honest as possible.

*****************

Let me preface this by saying that I don't "blame" anyone for who or how I am. I will simply explain what my influences were and what has always been expected of me.

Be it great or ever so small, do it right or not at all". Perfection, or the pursuit of it, was established as a criteria for success.

unless you are flexible with the term "perfection"- you must have "failed" a lot in life. I say that b/c perfection is usually impossible. And the fear of failure OR need for perfection has defeated more wonderful life saving research projects from starting, and kept more art and music from being created or seen or heard than most anything else in the world. At grad school for art, my daughter's professor said "Dare to sukk, DARE to fail b/c if you never fail you will never grow."

Seems like the same lesson you are learning now b/c you sure are growing from a feeling of having failed. Ironic?

Soooo, how does that manifest in a relationship? Well, obviously the resulting OCD made my wife crazy - and she took it personally as if I was saying she failed to do something so now I have to do it.

well, That's the message you sent when you did it after she had already, or after you thought she should have.

But more interestingly, it made me strive for this ideal of perfection as a spouse.

[color:#CC0000]
how did your OCD fit into your ideal of your own perfection? Did you secretly think it was an asset that made your goals more attainable? Like it was your secret weapon for cleaning things "the right way"? ETC?

[/color]
So, if I put myself in my wife's shoes - "but you are awful and the small things, and the small tihngs matter". She also probably felt that nothing she did measured up in my eyes. So--- I thought I was a great husband because I did what I thought made a great husband....not what my wife thought made a great husband. ---
It's as if I was telling myself that I didn't need to make breakfast, walk in the park, or give up things I wanted because I was BEING a good husband. Selfish. Just selfish.

& it's a lot of complacency that seeps into many marriage. Probably most.

But the very happiest couples seem to do a lot of LITTLE things for each other. I don't see the grand or expensive gestures (which are nice on special occasions)

so much as Small reminders of love or consideration, a post it note that's hidden in the frig on a sandwich you make her, asexual affection like hand holding or rubbing the back, or feet, etc...a compliment in front of others, it adds up...

The irony is that in the pursuit of being a perfect husband, I was largely imperfect to my W over time. --- Now I am in a nice, big empty house that is serving as a reminder that you can acheive all you want, but without someone to bring it to it is meaningless.

Some real gems ^^^here...

I hope that life grants me a second chance with my family to be a better husband.

I do too!

I will also say this - if there has been one benefit, one MASSIVE 180 that has come of all of this, it has been with my son.---

Now I kind of feel like Mr. Mom ---- I am a better dad than I thought I was ever capable of being. Well, I should say I am BECOMING a better dad than I thought I was capable of being.------GEMS!!!
**************

"I am glad to hear of your transformations. I wish I could�ve been instrumental in supporting them along the way, It is interesting to see that once I was gone, you were able to make changes. Whatever the case, I�m glad to hear about them."

SHE WAS INSTRUMENTAL! She was a Catalyst for the TRANSFORMATION....

THANK HER FOR IT

REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS...thank her for it sincerely...that'll sink in and she'll ponder the identity of the woman who gets the new improved Best Crimson...

In time, there's no way she won't wonder about the ideal man she married who let her down now

but who IS INDEED THE IDEAL MAN SHE MARRIED!!!
*************

How do I 180 these if they are so very much centered around her perception of me?

Actually, ALL 180s are started to confuse the WAS with new behaviors of the LBSer, and are originally designed to affect their perceptions and to undermine those very perceptions.

things I could have done better relating to the list above:

1.) I could have learned to live with imperfections a little better.

my belief is you MUST learn to live with imperfection AND outright FAULTS IN OTHERS, a whole lot LOT better....or you'll have no friends.
QUERY-
Are your parents super popular socially involved people or are they home bodies or do they just do things together without many others?

How do they handle flaws in their own families and with friends? What did you see of their tolerance outside their r with you? IOW how did they model tolerance for the less than perfect around them? I

180 = relax and accept the imperfections in life as evidence that someone that loves you is there. like I said before, YES...

----

4.) Then when the baby came, we were so wrapped up in being new parents that we didn't talk about what else we wanted in life (travel, retirement, style of life, etc.). --- In an argument before she moved out I asked her what she wanted out of life and she just snapped "thanks for asking after 8 years" - and left the house.

keep asking, and listen to and HEAR what she says

Right now communication is highly limited so I am at a loss for exactly how to handle things right now.

are you saying you don't know how/who you "really are" now, b/c you think your negative traits ONLY affected her? I'm betting that's not true.

Have you asked a friend or anyone at work if there are things that they'd like you to "focus more on" "give more positive feedback about" or "hone up on or adjust to make things easier for them" at work?

I think if you were open about it, and they were comfortable answering, that you would get feedback that says many of the same things to you that your w has said.

Check it out. If you were as OCD as you sound, I'd bet you were not that way ONLY at home...were you? If so....why?

my h's job requires him to assume the patient is deteriorating and so he enters and checks all monitors in the operating room and the patient's response...all day expecting the worst and looking for it.

At home that is a big drag. So I get where she's coming from. Drives our kids nuts. They dreaded him coming home until only a few years ago when he toned it down. Even now they get a little cleaned up when they know he's coming home. I don't know how I feel about their actions now but I sure didn't like it when they delighted at his absence b/c the tension lessened due to his criticisms ligtening up.

I will focus on myself, but I would be a liar if part of me didn't want her to see changes.

Tell us about some of those changes other than how you relate to son...though that's crucial

Forgot to mention - W also said that I was too disconnected from the family. She said that I was on my iPad, BlackBerry, Mac too much.

okay see what I wrote earlier in THIS post about that. You can make a challenge or next time you two eat together, do that little contest with the phones/blackberrys etc...it will show change without pursuit.
[color:#FF0000]

her use of texting or blackberry/Ipad MAY be a tad different if she's home all day she wants to connect with other adults like you got to do all day
[/color]

See my earlier comment about the Blackberry/cell phone, etc...

There was a debate earlier this year in which she asked me to stop bringing my iPad/BlackBerry to bed.

unless you were watching a soft porn film...seems a tad UNromantic in BED

- but whenever there were actual "dinners" where we cooked I was always at the table. If I walked through the door at 5:45 and she was feeding herself with one hand and feeding the baby with the other and there was really nothing made for dinner - sure, I would grab a sandwich and sit on the couch and watch the news. I retrospect, I could have done that differently if I new that it was that upsetting to her. Notwithstanding, any time she asked me to come to the table I always did.

In HER MIND, your arrival home when she is feeding the baby w/one hand and feeding herself with the other, screams out that SHE NEEDED YOUR HELP...so next time if you get a next time, you take your jacket off and change shirts and ask her

"Which do I get to do? I'll take care of the baby OR make dinner, YOUR choice!"

It's too bad you did not see that she needed your offer to help and your expectation that you ought to, so she doesn't feel less than b/c she's not an octopus who didn't put dinner in the baby's mouth AND cook something separate for you and her AND set the table, etc...of course she needed assistance from you.

Rehearse that scene and do as my bil does and now my h (I saw my bil do it and he's a great h and I LOVED him more for modelling this to me)

I was visiting and my sister was with her toddler, and school age child was doing homework at the table and she was cooking dinner and setting the table around the child and I got some things out but then her h entered from his job that day. She asked how his day was and they kissed but within ONE minute, he said "I'm going to change clothes and come back down and you tell me which I can do, dinner or the kids"...

at HIS promotion he bought her flowers b/c he said he could not do it without her and that she had the hardest job in the world, raising his children and she was a great partner and mother and best friend and best mate he could have, etc. It made me cry.

So HE showed me that's how it's done and my h saw it and I realized that this particular bil is from Brooklyn--from a Strong Italian family where both parents are expressive and loving and emotionally well. The mom is a therapist. They raised him right and he's good to my sister.
It's great to have role models and mentors...

I never FELT disconnected from them - I loved being around them, they were the center of my world. However, I can see how she could see it that way. My 180 now is to spend as much time engaged to my son as I can when he is with me. Hence the hikes, trips to the zoo, etc. - I make it about him as much as I can. Again, the down side is that even though it is a good change that I am making for myself, she will never have a chance to see it - unless I just go and trumpet it in her face, which I will not do.

Try NOT to see or even SEE the downside to anything you make a positive comment about. It negates the positives.

in case I am not making it clear, I am very impressed with what you've written here.

Sometimes I cringed for you b/c you saw the truth and it was not pretty'

but that's what it takes. God knows I was far from great...

I once posted here that "PLAN A" present warm loving home instead of furious shrew wife with crossed arms meeting h at door & pouncing on h with details of my hard day and the needs H must now meet of MINE..."

I think "Plan B" was "begin drinking heavily so as to avoid facing life as long as possible." I was able to stick with Plan A but sometimes I did better than others.

((( )))

Crimson, thanks for posting your thoughts. I'm catching up on the threads but really appreciate your transparency...

You said:
I have had plenty of time to reflect on these, and though I do not agree with all of them (any of them, really) I can see how she arrived at some of these conclusions. How do I 180 these if they are so very much centered around her perception of me?

I can empathize with this. I struggle with the accusations my W has laid on me, but at the samem time, it does not change the way she feels and that fact that I must do something different to help her see and feel something different about me. What that is, however, is still a struggle to figure out.

Wish I had better suggestions to offer but there are certainly more intuitive people here to offer that. Just know you're not alone and you're in my thoughts & prayers.

Originally Posted By: Crimson

Thanks, Rick and 25

Here is a question at large just regarding the content. One of the things that I have been very focused on in the "list of 37" is:

"not discussing the future - they aren't interested in a future with you right now."

Now, on the one hand I see how it is imperative to show how life and marriage to me would be better from "this day forward". On the other hand, I see how it is nearly impossible to make that point without at least "grazing" the future.

I am filled with fear that she just won't believe me and will react poorly and give me the "nice, but it's too late" line. I keep thinking about the lines she has hit me with:

"Maybe your changes will benefit your next relationship"

"It's over! I'm done! And there is nothing you can do or say to change my mind!"

"Give me a rule book on what to do and I'll read it! Better yet - give it to your NEXT wife!"

More recently: "I have NO trust in you at all. I trust that you will do right by our S, but that is it."

I think through those statements and become paralyzed with fear that any outreach on my end will be met with a hail of bullets. Still, I think the time has arrived that I tell her something about where I am right now. I just don't think she will believe me. Should I plan for a negative reaction initially and just hope the core message sinks in gradually?

I'll start thinkingthrough an outline later today......

Crimson

Sorry can't figure out to to change font color etc..
Crimson, I'm so glad you posted this. These are the EXACT (except no kids) lines my WAW used on me and they are heartbreaking to be sure. In a sense, I am observing your stitch and living vicariously here. You have the gift of fortitude and honesty that will, in the end, make everything alright. Thanks so much for sharing - I'm learning so much through your posts bro!

If I may add my 2 cents, these are the things that my H said to me as well.

Funny how they turn the trust thing around. We have to earn their trust? What? Who's seriously committed to the R here and wants to improve things? Should things get better in the future, it seems to me that the WAS would have to earn our trust back, but that's just my 2 cents.

Crimson,

Gabbysmom has a great point.

You have done some really introspective work for yourself. And from what we read, you have really seen the light.

25 highlighted the points that you should probably work on , although.....

You are the kind of person, that runs the risk of taking this conversation too deep , and would probably try to "fix" this whole thing with this exchange.

What I would suggest doing, is taking some time, and allowing those points from above to REALLY become who you are, and THEN follow this up with a short and sweet talk , from you heart.

Give her just enough to want to follow that up, by hearing more.

This is a conversation that HAS to be from your heart, not some rehearsed speech ( which she will feel that from you ).

One of the things that she NEEDS to SEE, is that you ARE different, and not as rehearsed as you have been in the past.

That you are willing to take life as it comes, instead of planning every second of it, and pouting when things fail to go as planned.

This is how you SHOW those things.

And if you really believe in your changes, and they are real, then let your heart speak to her....

Originally Posted By: Mach1

What I would suggest doing, is taking some time, and allowing those points from above to REALLY become who you are, and THEN follow this up with a short and sweet talk , from you heart.

Give her just enough to want to follow that up, by hearing more.

Bingo! I think this really speaks to the challenge many LBS have regarding pursuit.

Frame this as a sales job or job interview. The goal being getting the WAS to pursue. To believe that what you have... who you are... is something they want...

MNKY and NHMOM, this is for the two of you, as well. In having heard the same things from your spouses (and so many of us have). The WAS has said to you, "I AM NOT BUYING". The 180 here for the LBS is to move from "I am selling" (pursuit) to "I am NOT selling" (withdrawal). This 180 (when sincere) is a classic "take away" sales position which is extremely effective.

When the buyer no longer feels pressure of the sell, they begin to take down their walls.

When the wall comes down, the "feel, felt, found" method works really well. This is what we might call "validating and empathizing" in DB. "I understand how you feel. I felt that way, too. I found that..."

And finally, as the prospect begins to feel understood and validated... the technique changes to one of "valuation projecting" (for lack of a better term). Visualization being a key aspect of this. What is happening here is using key points that you have learned about the prospect which have been learned through active listening and highlighting them (as positives that our product / us have) and how the now and the future life will be so much better, with.

ie. "I understand how important (security or other key point) is in a person's life. I can't imagine anyone being without that. It's a very important thing for someone to have. I want that as part of my life and this is what I'm doing to achieve that. I know you deserve that and can also have that."

What is happening is, you are not selling yourself. You are simply encouraging that as a goal for the prospect to strive for. They project it as an aspect of yourself or your product and then leaving it lie. Even going so far as to have the prospect tell you how their life would be like, how it would "look" if they had that in their life. If they cannot provide a visual example, provide one for them. The prospect integrates that into their own inventory of wants / needs and then places you or your product into that role.

Yes, how I've presented this can appear odd. A lot of people don't relate sales to relationships. I felt that way to. I found that these types of sales techniques are an integral part of relationships and can be observed in businesses where service is a core part of the product line. Relationships matter in all parts of our lives. The most successful businesses and sales people are those who build those relationships...

The most important key here is: You MUST fulfill or the relationship will break down and you will loose the customer.

Hope that makes sense.

Mach & Kaffe -

You make a very valid point - and in a more perfect setting and set of circumstances I think that a face to face talk would be ideal.....even preferred. However, at this time I don't think a face to face talk would go over well. I think she still has a lot of anger a few millimeters below the surface and it would turn into "attack and defend". I think that AFTER I can sit and write out everything in a meaningful, heartfelt manner it may calm the waters enough to make a conversation about "us" more of a reality. I would view this as an opening salvo, really.

THANK YOU TO EVERYONE that has been so complimentary, kind and encouraging in your words. This is the fight of my life so far, though I know others have endured worse (cancer, death of a loved one, etc.).

These last four months has opened my eyes so wide about what truly matters and who truly matters. I can see that I wasn't a BAD or abusive husband - I was just very, very, VERY poorly equipped to emotionally support a wife or child. I had no idea how joyful the life I was living was. Nor did I have any idea how joyless I was making my w's life. She and my son are my whole world and I hope to get us all back together soon.

Thank you again everyone - campy as this may sound, I would not be doing was well without you. Especially you, 25. You are amazing.

Crimson

Little update-

So since I was in Denver Monday and Tuesday I had reached SEVERAL days without seeing my son. My W has Wednesdays and Thursdays so I asked if it would be OK if I came to her place to see him. She said that would be OK and said there was a park right around the corner that he likes. I told her she would be more than welcome to come along, and that it might be good for S to see us both together - even if it is for a little while. She declined the offer and said that S needs "dad time". Hey, at least I put it out there.

I got to her place and tapped on the window and S gave out a loud "DADDY!!!" and a huge smile. W opened the door and I kneeled down and gave him a big hug and told him how much I missed him and how happy I was to see him. I damn near cried.

I took him over to the park and we played for about an hour. It was wonderful - he was so happy and laughed, and ran......just wonderful. We went back to W's place and I just sat on the front porch with him. W opened the door and talked to us a bit. My uncle passed away this week and she was asking about him.....remembering how nice he was to her and how he went out of his way to welcome her to the family. It was nice.

She invited me in by saying "S, do you want to show daddy your blocks??" - so I went inside and sat on the floor with him stacking his blocks until he got bored with it, handed me a book to read him, and plopped into my lap. I read to him while I heard my W drawing a bath for him. I got him ready for his bath and met W in the bathroom. She dropped him in and started cleaning him up.

Oddly enough, she asked how my trip to Colorado went. I said "well" and touched on a few things I did. She asked what friends I saw (interesting) so I gave her the list. I told her that she was right - it was a really beautiful state. It was time to take off so W said "Tell daddy bye bye!". I gave him a little kiss and I was on my way. First time I've left him there without crying on the way home.

For a little bit, it felt like we were a family again. I miss it so much. Maybe she felt the same way.....bah, who knows.

Crimson

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

Yes, how I've presented this can appear odd.

Yes, it appears odd but it's just a different way of modelling DB techniques. If one bears that in mind, it's not odd at all.

A lot of people are willing to accept M using the business model. We use words like "deal breaker." Marriages can be legally terminated through divorce proceedings, just like any business contract.

IMHO, as long as we recognize the context, i.e.: that we're only looking at one model, it doesn't seem odd at all.

It brings to mind the question of whether or not we're all just playing games. Whenever it starts to feel like game-playing, I always think of this:

Quote:

From Divorce Busting:

Sometimes after reading about doing a 180 people wonder, "isn't this technique like game playing? Isn't it manipulative?" Continuing to do the same old thing even though it doesn't work is no less game-like than doing something different. In fact, since relationships are like seesaws, if one person expresses all the optimism and confidence, the other person is free to feel all the pessimism and insecurity. Spouses often balance each other out in this way. When one person's views are extreme, it forces his or her partner to adopt an equally extreme view in the opposite direction.

Originally Posted By: Crimson

You make a very valid point - and in a more perfect setting and set of circumstances I think that a face to face talk would be ideal

Yep. But for now, ya gotta play by the rules

Originally Posted By: Crimson

For a little bit, it felt like we were a family again. I miss it so much. Maybe she felt the same way.....bah, who knows.

That's wonderful, Crimson. Treasure those moments. Who knows? Maybe your W does too. But either way, it's something you can look back on fondly.

My kids are older than yours. A couple of summers ago I went on a trip to Southeast Asia with my eldest D. W wasn't with us, and though I would have preferred her to be there, I enjoyed the time with my D more than you can imagine. And I do treasure those memories.

Is that GAL?

Originally Posted By: Crimson

These last four months has opened my eyes so wide about what truly matters and who truly matters. I can see that I wasn't a BAD or abusive husband - I was just very, very, VERY poorly equipped to emotionally support a wife or child. I had no idea how joyful the life I was living was. Nor did I have any idea how joyless I was making my w's life.

How long did it take you to type this ????

Not very, why?

To me, it just sounds like the perfect thing to say...

Because it came straight from your heart, instead of a planner.

It was honest, it wasn't thought out beforehand, and it says most everything you feel...

It is short, and sweet, and would leave her wanting to hear more.

Crap, I wanna hear more, and you have zero chance with me....

: )

Your words to her, should come this quickly and openly.

That was my point earlier

Those aren't just words, they are your core, and what you have shown recently

Jus sayin

Mach -

I will try to stick to that style of language, it's just going to be a little tricky. Notwithstanding, onward I march.

So I have an initial hearing on this coming Wednesday and had to spend an hour and a half with my L doing paperwork. I so don't want this. It was all about division of property and how much I will have to start paying her every month. I am going to get slaughtered and have to stop contributing to my 401K just to keep above water. I received a copy of her proposal statement from her L. I wish she would just walk away from all of this. I am just drained emotionally these days. In my heart I feel as though there is enough between us and such a strong desire to be with our S that we can work through all of the things that are issues.

I am doing my best to stay strong, but when the legal process continues to drive on, and when I have to start writing checks and surrendering my retirement, I start to get really, really depressed.

I would give anything just to have it stop. I hope I am not so far removed from her heart that it is too late. I still love her tremendously, I love my son tremendously. I am not ready to give up, but I feel so discouraged when the legal crap comes up.

Crimson

I agree with MACH^^^

Crimson, my lengthy replies are for YOU to get it and tie in things and connect the dots. Not so you can put bullet points and counter points in a memo to her, okay?

Let is all sink in and BECOME the man you want to be, and btw, I never got an answer from you on those questions.

Are you better now, aside from realizations you have had, what else? Are you attending a church? Are you working on your OCD?

IOW are you acting and or behaving in new ways with others?

whatever, you do need to lose the planner for awhile. Like a lot--gabby's got a great point.

There's a rigidity in there that is not serving you or if it is serving you at work it's not elsewhere. It reminds me of military precision training which is suitable for narrowly defined tasks.

Hence her suggestion you write a "Rules book" for your next wife. Think about that. Just curious who loaded the dishwasher? Ever discuss or argue about how to do or did you ever "demonstrate" for her?

Did you tell her there was a certain way to load and unload a dishwasher?

I'm guessing yes. Would you do THAT today? AND IF NOT

would you secretly be telling yoursellf "she's doing it wrong but I'm going to let it slide b/c that's just thet kind of cool guy i am"

or

would you say to yourself, "thank God she's here, bothering to help at all. I know there is not just one "right way" nor are all other ways wrong. There are simply different ways."

rather than seeing it as a sacrifice on your end, try to see it as a healthier happier way of living.

Value and embrace the differences in each other, rather than assuming you are "tolerating a flaw" in another.

If you ever want to read a book about how people see their own behavior and others, in a semi sci-fi moralizing way, read CS Lewis's book "The Great Divorce" which has NOTHING to do with divorce. A group of people are at a bus station and it becomes apparent that some buses are going to hell and others are going to heaven.

But there are people trying to argue their way into heaven and some get angry that their spouses or kids made it and they did not, "b/c we love each other so much!!".

In one case a mother wants her son with her so much FOR HER SAKE that she's enraged b/c her son got to heaven and she didn't. "But a mother's love is the greatest of all and HE should be with ME always!!"

So she'd rather he go to hell and join her in hell, than for him to ascent to be heaven without her, all b/c of how much she "loves" her son...not!

It has several couples in the story with common marital issues that are culminating in the big judgement day and the LBSers are waiting to be rewarded and see some punishment go the way of the WAS but alas it's not quite what you expect at first....it is better.

just a philisophical digression...

keep it short Crimson and speak from the heart

and dont' make it so organized that it looks too calculating. As for verbally expressed words, well since you do see her sometimes, why not give it to her (when it's time, I mean) and say a few words with it?

and let me know your other thoughts on those questions when you have time.

((( )))

Originally Posted By: Crimson

These last four months has opened my eyes so wide about what truly matters and who truly matters. I can see that I wasn't a BAD or abusive husband - I was just very, very, VERY poorly equipped to emotionally support a wife or child. I had no idea how joyful the life I was living was. Nor did I have any idea how joyless I was making my w's life.

This is going in my DB file.

"Are you better now, aside from realizations you have had, what else? Are you attending a church? Are you working on your OCD? IOW are you acting and or behaving in new ways with others?"

No, I have not started attending church regularly. The church that I really like is the one that we both together that she attends (and joins). I always feel like I would be encroaching on her space if I was there. I could always go to a different service I suppose.

What I am trying to do differently now:

1.) The TV in my house is getting pretty dusty. I never turn it on anymore, my parents watch a lot and it annoys me. Last week I deleted all of the shows that I had DVR'd on my cable box - didn't watch them, just deleted them. I am about *this* close to taking the TV out of the master bedroom to further aid my progress. I have a bad Indiana (Hoosiers) basketball habit (hence the name "Crimson") - that is the only thing I really feel like I HAVE to see if I can, but that is it.

2.) I have cut back on my iPhone usage so much, even my friends have commented. This weekend in Denver I made it a point to leave it at my friend's condo whenever we went anywhere. When I get home, I take it upstairs and leave it there for the most part. When I am at a friend's house or at dinner with friends it either stays in my car or stays in my pocket. Even if it goes off.

3.) I make a conscience effort to walk away from the little messes that would have otherwise driven me nuts. I have literally walked towards something to straighten it, stopped, turned around, and walked away - leaving the mess in place. You should see weeds growing in my backyard! I finally called someone about it - to let it go like that for me is pretty big. I have also quit straightening up after my parents. No more wiping counters, putting away dishes, fixing couch pillows - and so on. I also try to let the baby make all the mess with his toys he wants during the day and only put things away once at night and maybe once before his nap.

4.) In terms of living life, I am trying to say "yes" to everything that is offered to me. Even if I don't feel like doing it. It has taken me to a few interesting places. I have also reached out to old friends that I grew apart from after I got married. I am really trying to be more sociable and have had people over more often (Christmas Tree Party, Christmas Eve Party). I have joined meetup.com, but I haven't selected any events/groups yet - I will, I have just been busy.

5.) Regardless of how tired I am, or how much I want to veg - I do everything for my son. We hike, we go to zoos, museums, parks, we read together....that is a night and day change for me. I adore that little guy. Absolutely adore him.

6.) I have asked friends and co-workers to tell me about some of my bad habits. That includes someone that used to HATE me. She made some good points about how I communicate, and I have really tried to pay attention to some of the subtle non-verbal (hell, and VERBAL) things that come from me. I also got a lot of feedback on the whole phone and "tuning out" thing. Wasn't just my W it was bothering. She just got the most of it.

7.) In light of the TV being semi-retired, I have started reading a lot more - at the moment mostly things based on relationships - but it is a start and I am learning a lot.

8.) I am looking at myself first before I look at others in conflicts. This started with my wife, but it is not ending there,

We both loaded the dishwasher - and I never criticized her for that at all. Oddly enough, she rode me pretty hard about putting our Nalgene bottles in the wrong way and melting the lids. Got that a LOT.

I'll go back and see if I missed any other questions.

Crimson

Originally Posted By: Crimson

"Are you better now, aside from realizations you have had, what else? Are you attending a church? Are you working on your OCD? IOW are you acting and or behaving in new ways with others?"

No, I have not started attending church regularly. The church that I really like is the one that we both together that she attends (and joins). I always feel like I would be encroaching on her space if I was there. I could always go to a different service I suppose.

I doubt she'd feel encroached upon but obviously you could have gone to a different service but you talked yourself out of it...b/c...you didn't feel like it and she would not know to see? Hey don't backslide and revert so fast.

I think this is a simple 180 and you will surely get something out of it. Plus if you do it, it's visible, and she will learn of it. Just an easy step to take that makes huge changes IN you and your life. Don't make new excuses for not doing what you don't feel like doing b/c the reward does not seem immediate...

why'd you like that church anyhow? B/C you felt something? Okay then...

What I am trying to do differently now:

1.) The TV in my house is getting pretty dusty. I never turn it on anymore, my parents watch a lot and it annoys me. Last week I deleted all of the shows that I had DVR'd on my cable box - didn't watch them, just deleted them. I am about *this* close to taking the TV out of the master bedroom to further aid my progress. I have a bad Indiana (Hoosiers) basketball habit (hence the name "Crimson") - that is the only thing I really feel like I HAVE to see if I can, but that is it.

2.) I have cut back on my iPhone usage so much, even my friends have commented. This weekend in Denver I made it a point to leave it at my friend's condo whenever we went anywhere. When I get home, I take it upstairs and leave it there for the most part. When I am at a friend's house or at dinner with friends it either stays in my car or stays in my pocket. Even if it goes off.

all good stuff ^^^...I still say you could try the dinner with cells in the middle of the table b/c its' VISIBLE CHANGE...but I won't push it

3.) I make a conscience effort to walk away from the little messes that would have otherwise driven me nuts. I have literally walked towards something to straighten it, stopped, turned around, and walked away - leaving the mess in place. You should see weeds growing in my backyard! I finally called someone about it - to let it go like that for me is pretty big. I have also quit straightening up after my parents.

wow so your perfectionist parents were NOT so clean, or were they fine but it's your view point that is skewed?? Just curious that you find them less than perfect in housekeeping

No more wiping counters, putting away dishes, fixing couch pillows - and so on. I also try to let the baby make all the mess with his toys he wants during the day and only put things away once at night and maybe once before his nap.

you AND YOUR SON will be happier in the long run by these acts

4.) In terms of living life, I am trying to say "yes" to everything that is offered to me. Even if I don't feel like doing it.

that's when it counts!!!

It has taken me to a few interesting places. I have also reached out to old friends that I grew apart from after I got married. I am really trying to be more sociable and have had people over more often (Christmas Tree Party, Christmas Eve Party). I have joined meetup.com, but I haven't selected any events/groups yet - I will, I have just been busy.

my kids have joined that group for writer's groups and I met some comedians there too. It's not all a date site. GREAT GAL.

5.) Regardless of how tired I am, or how much I want to veg - I do everything for my son. We hike, we go to zoos, museums, parks, we read together....that is a night and day change for me. I adore that little guy. Absolutely adore him.

6.) I have asked friends and co-workers to tell me about some of my bad habits. That includes someone that used to HATE me. She made some good points about how I communicate, and I have really tried to pay attention to some of the subtle non-verbal (hell, and VERBAL) things that come from me. I also got a lot of feedback on the whole phone and "tuning out" thing. Wasn't just my W it was bothering. She just got the most of it.

this is a rare gift....so useful!! So ask them how you are doing with your personal work. You know get some feedback to see if your efforts are manifesting in outward change...ask for them to keep you posted...

7.) In light of the TV being semi-retired, I have started reading a lot more - at the moment mostly things based on relationships - but it is a start and I am learning a lot.

8.) I am looking at myself first before I look at others in conflicts. This started with my wife, but it is not ending there,

We both loaded the dishwasher - and I never criticized her for that at all. Oddly enough, she rode me pretty hard about putting our Nalgene bottles in the wrong way and melting the lids. Got that a LOT.

I'll go back and see if I missed any other questions.

Crimson

well done

She made a joke tonight via text! That was a first. I found a little silver crucifix on the front porch with footprints on the front and a passage from the poem/prose "Footprints". I snapped a picture of it and texted it to her asking if it was hers. Much later she respond with just a plain "no". About an hour after that she said "looks like it just walked there itself (footprints!)".

Small, but I'll take it!

CM

Rough draft pretty much done. Re-reading.

Crimson

So 25 and others, here are a few questions that have come to mind as I re-read what I have written to my W.

I briefly touched on a few things that I would do differently if given a second chance or a "time machine" - only like three things, maybe four. All of which are things that mattered to her at the time that I totally missed. Question is - by addressing those directly, do I make it sound like a "sales job". I.E. "I'm sorry and I would NEVER do that again."?

I also spoke a lot about our son, and how over the last 4 months it has become clear to me all that he represents in my life. I told her (and I truly mean this) that my new bond with him has made it clear that I want more children because I have realized that I get way more from him than I could ever give - and that I like the sense of purpose that fatherhood has granted me. I basically said I WILL grow my family. Should I specifically say I want to have more children and grow our family with her?? Or just leave it open ended allowing her room to conclude that she wants to be a part of it?

I don't mean to over-think, but those are two points that I am struggling with.

Crimson

Hey Crimson...just catchino up on your thread after attending a great Patriots victory tonight.

Don't overthink things so much bud....just speak or write the truth to her......what insights you have gained regarding the issues you two had...how you would handle things better going forward and why its important to your M and families welfare.

As I read your posts I keep thinking of you as Luke Skywalker closing in on the death star and Obywans voice saying "Luke trust the force....". I think you need to trust the truth from your heart...and the divine aspect of this. Crimson Skywalker.....trust The Force.

I know you're right. I just have a bad case of analysis paralysis. Don't want to forget to say something or say the WRONG thing, or come across as desperate or pleading. I know that I am not, but I fear that I am for some reason. I guess I am also fearful that I let her know all of this and then she will tell me to get lost - she doesn't believe me and it's too late.

My mind keeps going back to the absolutes she used "I'm done. I have no feelings for you or this marriage. There is nothing you can do or say to change my mind. It's over." I keep telling myself not to believe anything she says and only half of what she does - but that is tough for me because she seemed so serious, so angry, so......done.

Ya know, when I was in the 5th grade I had a crush on a girl named Melissa. She was so pretty I got nervous every single time I was around her. Somehow, my sister convinced me to write her a letter asking her to "go with me" (common dating parlance in the early 80's). To this day I remember getting to school early and dropping it in her locker. She didn't find it for weeks. When she did , it somehow made her physically ill and she had to go to the nurse's office. Of course, all of this happened in front of the entire class - giving me my first lesson in embarrassment. I wanted to crawl under a rock and stay there until summer break! As I am writing this letter to my w, imam having flashbacks and drawing parallels.

. I know I'm in my head and just need to get this done. Just a little scared.

Crimson

Who knows why Melissa was felt ill that day? Maybe it had nothing to do with you. Don't let trying to figure out why others react as they do cripple you.

When my H told me he was done, no chance, it's over, I was crushed and I said similar things back to him and then, the clincher: "If you're so done then move out" and as if that wasn't enough the next day when he was still there I said: "So you're still here, I thought you were done!" Did I want him to move out? No, but I was hurt and angry and allowed my emotions to overrule my head. Your W was very hurt and did what she did in an attempt to stop the hurting.

You have a chance to touch that place where she is hurting. Make it short and sweet. I think more than half a page would be overkill and may seem manipulative. I wouldn't bring up a lot of what you did then, because that's going to bring it to the forefront again. Speak from the heart about what you would do going forward and your feelings about the importance of the relationship, and listening to her.

crimson just got a chance to catch up on your thread. Sorry lawyers started to get involved we did that as well and now my w and i are sitting down to talk today for lunch, re budgets and finance. She is still confused.
I will say everyones advice here is great and its good to know people are out there that care. Write your letter from the heart don't over think just do, alla yoda. Don't go to long just enough to say your still fighting. As long as one person fights for the marriage there is always a chance.
I am glad to see your enjoying your son. I will admit its hard being a single parent but at the end of the day when they are going to bed and say i love you its worth it.
Good luck

In my opinion, I would hold off on the letter. She might feel pressure from it and move farther away from you. I am speaking from experience. I wrote my husband several emails, but he never replied back to any of them. When we are together, I do not talk about us getting back together unless he brings it up first. Then I really don't say too much about it then.

If you do decide to send the letter, I agree, write from the heart. Maybe write it and hold on to it for awhile. Then when the time is right, you can send it.

Well, hopeful - she kind of asked for a letter or e-mail. Otherwise, I wouldn't dare write one. Heck, I am feeling edgy enough writing it upon request - I don't think I could muster the nerve to do it without her asking first.

In the beginning, I wrote 2-3 letters to her asking her to stay, telling her I loved her...no more of that. And that really isn't the tone of this letter.

Crimson

Crimson, there's a reason why that quote Mach1 made above is so important...

Originally Posted By: Crimson

Don't want to forget to say something or say the WRONG thing, or come across as desperate or pleading. I know that I am not, but I fear that I am for some reason. I guess I am also fearful that I let her know all of this and then she will tell me to get lost - she doesn't believe me and it's too late.

I, and many others here, have written some of their best, from the heart, succinct and loving letters to their spouses.

I have not seen a single one of those letters abruptly nor obviously change the course of their spouse. And in many cases, it pushes the spouse further away.

Why? It appears because... wait for it... wait...

We cannot control how our spouses interpret our words. They are coming from a different emotional place than we are, so much of what we write appears to them as either finger and blame pointing, or comes across needy, or is simply uncomfortable for them to hear.

Yes, your W said words that appeared to have opened this door for you. Are you clear... are you 100% clear, that she has asked you to write a heart felt letter letting her know exactly the things you did wrong and how you understand she is hurt, and how much family and her mean to you...

Or did she ask you to let her know what you said to your parents...

Or... was she just reacting in a knee jerk manner and challenging you in the moment or even just saying something that was interpreted differently than she meant...??

It is OK to spend the time and effort to put down to paper everything you have. If it is helpful for you, that is fantastic. And at this time, are you absolutely, 100% sure that she has not already forgotten she asked you for that? And she absolutely, 100% is now in a place to be receptive to it?

I also think this little gem is really, really important to highlight:

Originally Posted By: Crimson

... convinced me to write her a letter asking her to "go with me" (common dating parlance in the early 80's). ... it somehow made her physically ill and she had to go to the nurse's office. Of course, all of this happened in front of the entire class - giving me my first lesson in embarrassment. I wanted to crawl under a rock and stay there until summer break!

I understand you may have made this comment in a slight, tongue in cheek moment.

Think about this, though... you remember vividly, that moment... that event... and there's no doubt at that moment, it was very traumatic for you... that whole experience likely was...

How has your life and that experience shown up in your life, possibly many times over, and how it is very likely influencing what you are doing, right now, with this letter...

If only you had not written that letter, or...

If you and only written that letter better, or...

well, you get that idea...

Still wondering why you're in analysis paralysis?

Words are easily misinterpreted... actions rarely are... actions may be confusing, but rarely misinterpreted...

Less words, more actions...

KD - really good stuff ^^^ here!!^ especially, less words, more actions....

My actions have lead the whole way for the last several months. I have said absolutely nothing to her about me, my feelings or our relationship since before she moved out. Rather, I have focused on myself....a lot. GAL, and taking a look at how I ended up here. I have made a lot of 180s - never breathed a word to her about them and she still noticed or mentioned on her own. I have no intentions of letting any letter or communication stop the progress I have made. I FULLY agree that actions outweigh words by a factor of at least 100. At the same time, I feel that there comes a time when words aren't completely worthless if not frequent and overdone. Especially since we no longer live together and have limited, yet mostly pleasant interactions. I have NO intention of making a habit out of letter-writing or R talks....at all. I still am, and plan to continue, leading with my actions.

The purpose of this letter is to primarily let her know what I feel my role was in the meltdown, she asked to hear that. I also want her to know what I have learned over these few months about myself, my feelings, and life in general. That is it. It's not to beg, plead or to pursue. Still a bad idea?

Crimson

Just to add on, now that I am thinking about it. Things have gotten to a point where she LITERALLY believes that I am happier without her - she has actually said that. I don't want her to think that I am at peace with this D, at all. I get the point of detaching, and I have made a lot of progress in that regard. But at what point is that interpreted as "lack of interest" or a true desire to be without them? I am not a pro at DB, but I feel as though that is a possibility of LRT, limiting communication and pulling back - which I have done. Am I reading all of this wrong? People can say "she already knows your feelings, no need to restate them" - but if she looks at me and thinks I am happier without her and out dating up a storm doesn't a point come up where one would need to chime in a bit? Before the the spouse just cashes in the chips because they thing YOU have moved on?

I don't know if this is the right thing to do, or if it is in accordance with DB. But I know that she DID ask for a letter or e-mail, and it is in my heart to let her know sort of where I am AND to continue working on ME.

Crimson

It's not a bad idea, Crimson. It really isn't. Not sure if it's a good idea, either... and that's the crux. How each of our sitches is unique in the choices and actions of no less than two individuals.

On your second post, it is interesting how you indicate you do not want your W to know that you are happier without her. Do you notice how that is very similar to the roller coaster of the WAS or MLCer, dragging the LBS back onto the roller coaster?

Do you want to drag your W back onto your roller coaster, or be dragged back onto hers?

Really, there is one thing and one thing only, here:

Do... or don't do... neither one right nor wrong... Regardless of what you choose, know that there will be both benefit and harmful consequences.

Every moment that you do not send the letter is another moment... hour... day... that you are CHOOSING an action. Because you are afraid.

If you are afraid of sending a letter that is not going to be effective and not have some expected results, then what are you brooding over it for?

And if you are NOT afraid of sending a letter, regardless of how it may be interpreted, then what are you waiting for?

No one is a pro at DB in the same way that no one is a pro at R or in child rearing or at life.

Do or don't do and accept your choice and move forward. As harsh as this may sound, it really is that simple.

Instead of a letter, why not talk to her in person. Let her see how sincere you are. I prefer to talk in person instead of a letter. Why not write the letter but instead of sending it and just read to her in person.

I sent my husband emails, then I wanted to tell him in person. Sometimes I did both.

Let her see your actions and your sincerity instead of reading about it.

KD - maybe I typed incorrectly, but I was trying to convey that I DON'T want my w to think I am happier without her. I'm really not. If I appear happier it is because of "as if" and finally getting out of my own way and living.

C

Hopeful - I am not sure how a face to face would go since we both have a history of interrupting one another. I wouldn't want this to escalate into a disagreement of some sort. I figure if I write, even though it's not as communicative and speaking in person, that she can more easily digest what I am trying to say and I can do a lot less stuttering and stammering and fidgeting. Maybe we can have a follow up face to face after this - but that would take some time.

Crimson

I am agree with you 100% GM. And no, I have no expectations of this letter being some sort of cure-all. I do not think that it alone will reverse my the course we are on. I have learned the hard way to keep expectations low at this point. At best, I hope that it will at least get her to see that I am no longer blaming her for this mess, that I am owning my part and that I am working hard to never go back to where I was before. That I want to be a better man, and better spouse and a better father. If all this letter does is leave her with that impression - then I am OK with that. If not, I figure I can't make things worse. Papers are filed, you know?

Crimson

Wasn't sure if you'd pick up on that, Crimson.

Actually, I mistyped. I had meant to say, "... you do not want your W to think that you are happier ..."

I definitely understand that you currently feel and expect to feel for an indefinite period of time, less happy without her.

As you once again affirm to her that you are not happier without her, she will have a choice... to be drawn back onto the emotional roller coaster, or to keep herself off the emotional roller coaster...

Do you really want to push that choice on her?

Do you think she would be attracted to someone who is miserable because they're pining for someone?

Or do you think she would be attracted to someone who is happy and enjoying life?

KD -

I am really trying to split the difference on those two options by saying that I am not happier without out her - but I am moving forward with my life and making myself happy with my circumstances by making a lot of necessary changes. As I said before - I am finally getting out of my own way and making a decision to be happy. Naturally, I would be happier if she would come along - but I am not longer going to wallow in the mire (thank you Doors) and I am going to be positive and happy about life. Not BECAUSE she is no longer with me, but DESPITE that she is no longer with me. Does that sound reasonable?

Crimson

.....as for the roller coaster, I am hopeful that my ACTIONS will show her that I am no longer wanting to put her on it. I would really like to close that ride for good.

"The purpose of this letter is to primarily let her know what I feel my role was in the meltdown, she asked to hear that. I also want her to know what I have learned over these few months about myself, my feelings, and life in general. That is it. It's not to beg, plead or to pursue. Still a bad idea?"

Crimson, I don't think that it is ever a bad idea when you go with what is in your heart. Which reminds me of a quote I once read.

"When you bait your hook with your heart, the fish always bite."

I interpret that to mean that when you put your heart and your soul into whatever it is that you do, that effort will be evident to all. Whether you choose to put your heart into spoken or written words is your choice. Just let your heart speak for you.

Just be mindful of the fact that whatever you choose to do, don't expect your W to come running back into your arms after she reads or hears what is in your heart. You'll be terribly disappointed. She may begin to have second thoughts, but don't expect it, ok?

Nah, I expect nothing. I mean, I would HOPE for the best - but I don't think this will turn the tide that much. As I said, worst case scenario she get's an idea of where I am mentally and WRT the relationship as a whole. I don't know if I can really make things worse. The letter won't be unexpected or out of the blue. I'll just deliver when I drop off S and that'll be it.

Crimson

"The devil is in the details..."

No, really... the more detail, the more verbose, the more effort... the more opportunity for the devil to show up in your letter...

lex parsimoniae - Occam's razor: paraphrased as "often the most simple solution, is the correct one"

Originally Posted By: Crimson

... trying to split the difference on those two options by saying that I am not happier without her - but I am moving forward with my life and making myself happy with my circumstances by ...

Do you see how this could be confusing for your W?

She may feel guilty because you still want her in your life and she does not want to be... and THEN... she'll be ANGRY at you for making her feel guilty... and why, oh why, can you not just move forward and be happy... that's what she wants for herself and while she might say she doesn't care about you, she wants that for you, as well... because she does not want to feel guilty about not being in love with you...

Keep it simple, and keep emotions out of it. Go to your logical brain and leave your heart on the shelf for this letter...

Let me say that, again:

Go to your logical brain and leave your heart on the shelf for this letter...

Because THAT is what she asked you for.

Originally Posted By: Crimson

Nah, I expect nothing. I mean, I would HOPE for the best - but I don't think this will turn the tide that much. As I said, worst case scenario she get's an idea of where I am mentally and WRT the relationship as a whole. I don't know if I can really make things worse. The letter won't be unexpected or out of the blue. I'll just deliver when I drop off S and that'll be it.

Crimson

I have not read the letter but will say this, the most you can realistically pray and hope for is that a seed is planted.

& that's all...IF a seed is planted and takes roots, YOU will NOT know this until it takes root and sprouts in some way. So take heart b/c while I have hope for you,

I don't see it happening soon.

I think she feels this is her task to do, and she needs to be released to do it and figure out what she wants, values and trusts in life.

Hopefully that will be you.

give her the space and time to let the good memories that exist and the love she once had, resurface in her mind and heart.

Don't block them from resurfacing with your needs for it to happen now.

Step back, GAL and move forward....lovingly

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

Wasn't sure if you'd pick up on that, Crimson.

Actually, I mistyped. I had meant to say, "... you do not want your W to [b]think that you are happier ..."[/b]

I definitely understand that you currently feel and expect to feel for an indefinite period of time, less happy without her.

As you once again affirm to her that you are not happier without her, she will have a choice... to be drawn back onto the emotional roller coaster, or to keep herself off the emotional roller coaster...

Do you really want to push that choice on her?

Do you think she would be attracted to someone who is miserable because they're pining for someone?

Or do you think she would be attracted to someone who is happy and enjoying life?

such great posts to you Crimson...

I think your wife may feel you are happier but how do you know that?

And why is that all bad?

If my h and I had divorced in his MLC, and he was still miserable today, I would Not find that attractive, nor would I feel vindictated.

I'd think "still? Why hasn't he learned anything yet?"

---------------

It's mandatory that you create and embrace happiness in your future no matter what she does. KNOW THIS is a strength, not a weakness in you.

-----------------------
For her to read the letter without a critical eye, means it must be given without request or expecatation from you, and she MUST get that crystal clearly from you...

you are responding to her request and at most a gentle reminder would do--and please put zero blame on her. That would be like blaming your parents for how you took their words and manifested them in your m. That was not their intent...and all you were saying in your earlier posts does not negate her role. But why would YOU point it out?

It's one thing to apportion blame (DO NOT!!!) but it's another to simply own your role in YOUR behavior. Only address that and assume that she will, in time assess her own flaws. (If not, then she's not the loss you fear she is.) In any case, you reviewing and owing YOUR stuff, does nothing to absolve her of flaws or makes her perfect.

stay in your sandbox and work on YOUR stuff...and leave her in hers to do her work
------------
Best case scenario is that she's open to thinking things MIGHT someday better for you two...

which means different. So your efforts, written or verbal or by action (or all)

have to show CHANGE in you.

I do wish you could express yourself verbally to her and have zero fear of argument or escalation. Take a pill if you have to.

Seriously, I would KNOW that nothing my h could say at that moment would escalate things, and there have been times in our marriage when I was capable of that. This is one of those times for you, imo.

If she rails and rants and goes bonkers on you, then you apologize for upsetting her and you leave....it's low risk of deterioration if you have your armor on, which does not mean your heart is closed.

but I think for now I hope I am just going to hope you can find some peace today.

"She may feel guilty because you still want her in your life and she does not want to be... and THEN... she'll be ANGRY at you for making her feel guilty... and why, oh why, can you not just move forward and be happy... that's what she wants for herself and while she might say she doesn't care about you, she wants that for you, as well... because she does not want to feel guilty about not being in love with you..." - kaffe diem

These are hard lessons to learn...but thank God there are some insightful women here to help us guys out....to help us understand.

"Do you think she would be attracted to someone who is miserable because they're pining for someone?

Or do you think she would be attracted to someone who is happy and enjoying life?" - kaffe diem

Again, this makes perfect sense. Why can't we see this in the midst of the pain?

Hi Crimson,

The advice above is great but I can still imagine you aren't sure whether to give the letter or not.

I may be an idiot - and chances are, I am, given what I've brought down on myself - but I'd be tempted to ask her.

That is, say something like "A couple of days ago you mentioned that you'd like to hear what I said to my parents about... If you're interested, I've written something down/jotted down a few points."

And then you can hand it over if she says Yes.

If she says No, or gets angry, then I'd back off for a while.

But at least you'd have planted a seed that might take root at a later time. And she'd know that you'd been reflecting and working on yourself in a serious way, even if she wasn't prepared to read the full details.

Anyway, just a thought...
NLW.

25 said: "such great posts to you Crimson...I think your wife may feel you are happier but how do you know that? And why is that all bad? If my h and I had divorced in his MLC, and he was still miserable today, I would Not find that attractive, nor would I feel vindicated. I'd think "still? Why hasn't he learned anything yet?""

I feel that she thinks I am happier without her because she TOLD me she thought that - and that she always suspected that would be the case. I guess I see that as bad because if she equates me being happy with her being OUT of my life then she has proven to herself that leaving was a good thing for ME.

25 said: "& that's all...IF a seed is planted and takes roots, YOU will NOT know this until it takes root and sprouts in some way. So take heart b/c while I have hope for you, I don't see it happening soon."

I know. I don't think it will be a quick fix at all. All I can hope is that is doesn't make things worse. Part of me remains hopeful that a seed has already been planted based on what she has seen in me over the last few months. I'm not going to bet my liver on it, but I would imagine that SOMETHING looks and feels different in me through eyes - she has all but said so.

KD Said: "She may feel guilty because you still want her in your life and she does not want to be... and THEN... she'll be ANGRY at you for making her feel guilty... and why, oh why, can you not just move forward and be happy... that's what she wants for herself and while she might say she doesn't care about you, she wants that for you, as well... because she does not want to feel guilty about not being in love with you..."

This ^^^ terrifies me. Though I know it is a possibility - I want to believe that somewhere through all of this there is a tiny sliver of love for me in there someplace.

25 said: "It's one thing to apportion blame (DO NOT!!!) but it's another to simply own your role in YOUR behavior. Only address that and assume that she will, in time assess her own flaws. (If not, then she's not the loss you fear she is.) In any case, you reviewing and owing YOUR stuff, does nothing to absolve her of flaws or makes her perfect."

I haven't the least intent to point a finger at her in this....really, ever. If she wants to bring up her part ever, I will listen - but that sure as HELL won't be brought up in this letter - if it ever makes it way to her. She is free to contemplate her part, but I won't do a thing to lead her there.

KD said: "Do you think she would be attracted to someone who is miserable because they're pining for someone? Or do you think she would be attracted to someone who is happy and enjoying life?"

Well the latter is the clear choice - and I certainly have not shown any more signs of pining. I will say that I miss her in the letter, and tell her how I would do some things differently. I will also tell her that because of the strengthening of the bond between me and S, I know for a fact that I want another child in my life. I won't say "with her", but hope that she will see that she is still the person I want to be with - without groveling.

I fear she WON'T be attracted to someone "enjoying life" because as I said before she will take that to mean her being gone = me being happy, so if she ever thought about coming back it would only make my life worse. Nothing could be further from the truth. How does one effectively make that point?????

NLW Said: "That is, say something like "A couple of days ago you mentioned that you'd like to hear what I said to my parents about... If you're interested, I've written something down/jotted down a few points.""

That ^^^^ is more or less the plan. I'll give it to her and if she chooses to read, which I think she will, then great.

So guys (and girls!) the hard point I am finding is following the BRILLIANT advice that is DB and somehow balancing that against the things that make my wife, my life and my situation unique. I think staying away from R talk or anything close to it has been helpful - at least it has helped stabilize things. I am concerned that since once of her MAJOR complaints was that I was disconnected that staying too far away would only make that case stronger - especially since she thinks I am "happy" right now being away from her.

For some reason I can get the notion of letting her know how I feel right now out of my heart. Divine messaging or my ego? No clue. But it feels like something I have to do right now. I know the chances of it making things "better" are slim to none.....but as ya'll have noted, at best I can plant a seed. Maybe giving her a tiny glimpse into my head right now isn't a bad thing.

I am moving forward....lovingly. But my heart still wants my family together....eventually. If I go back to the original question posed by Sandi (I think) I need to ask "does this move me closer or farther away from my goal?" - with this, I am not sure 100% - but I don't think it moves me too much farther away.

Thanks, everyone.

"I fear she WON'T be attracted to someone "enjoying life" because as I said before she will take that to mean her being gone = me being happy, so if she ever thought about coming back it would only make my life worse. Nothing could be further from the truth. How does one effectively make that point?????"

This is something I struggle with too, particularly as my H insists that he has 'ruined my life' and is a 'bad' person.

Crimson, this may be something we just can't communicate convincingly with words. As 25 says, Time + Consistent Actions may be the key here...

But keen to hear others' take on this.

I think it's unattractive to everyone, regardless of the circumstances, for someone to be miserable because they are pining for someone. You can twist and contort this FACT however you want in order to meet your needs or convince yourself of something you want to believe or because of your own insecurities. The fact above remains true...and it doesn't ceast to exist just because it's denied. Being miserable and sad because you are pining for someone IS NOT attractive to others...ESPECIALLY to the person you are pining for!

People are attracted to others who are happy and enjoying life. Period. This is a universal truth. A fact. Regardless of the circumstances. Twisting and contorting this fact in order to meet your own needs, wants, or insecurities doesn't change it's truth either!

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

the most you can realistically pray and hope for is that a seed is planted.

This is a great metaphor for where many of us are - I was already using it before coming to this site. Think of what interactions you DO get as a chance to plant a seed, or water it, in the hope that in time it will grow...

Antlers talks about contorting observations to our personal needs. Always a dangerous thing. Understand that I'm not suggesting you are doing this Crimson. I'm saying that in general, people risk conducting themselves from that place.

Originally Posted By: Crimson

I fear she WON'T be attracted to someone "enjoying life" because as I said before she will take that to mean her being gone = me being happy, so if she ever thought about coming back it would only make my life worse. Nothing could be further from the truth. How does one effectively make that point?????

25 either said it or alluded to it in one of her posts above:

If your W believes she has THAT kind of POWER over you and your happiness, than she would be entirely deluded and ready for a nice, comfy room.

Which further goes to saying, please... don't give her that power... Did you M someone who was delusional? Do you believe she is now that delusional? I'm not really being sarcastic...

I think that you can trust that your W is not thinking about returning to the M, so you can strike that concern at this time. You can deal with that if that opportunity arose. ie. When she says to you, "I am so glad you are happy now and I would never want to get back together with you because I wouldn't want to interfere with your happiness..."

I would also like to say that NLW made a very good suggestion... With the letter in your pocket, ask your W if she remembers asking and whether she still would like it...

IF she says, "yes, please do give me a letter", THAT would be when you tell her, "great, because I just happen to have it..." as you reach into your pocket and hand it to her...

Antlers hit it right on the money!! You can't use the excuse that if you are happy your W won't want to come back. If it is true that your W would only want you back if you are unhappy then the question is would you want any part of that? I know I want my W back with every ounce of my being, but not if she wants me miserable, or finds me undesirable if I am happy and enjoying life. Jmo here, but I would rather risk losing her by being happy than risk losing happiness for a chance to get her back.

No!! ^^^^ this is a good idea!

You mentioned earlier the stuff your W said that to her the marriage was completely over....no chance. FWIW I heard all the same things over and over. After nine pain filled months of DBing I am hearing some really hopeful stuff. Just sayin...it really isn't over till its over.

Also just for comparison's when I used to say things to her like you're going to say to your W in ltr form, she used to reject it brutally and say it sounded like a sales pitch. Yet I was speaking from the depths of my soul. But I thought to myself so what....at least she heard the truth and if I died that day at least I said it.

And you know what ........she recently has been accepting what I said and in fact has embraced the concepts for herself.

Look, you're a really strong guy that deserves a lot of respect. She's gonna hear you just maybe not today.

Looking at this from an eternal point of view and for generations of your family to come wouldn't you regret not taking this opportunity to speak from your heart and soul regardless of the outcome. True love and honesty is never wasted in the universe.

"True love and honesty is never wasted in the universe."

amen...

Just catching up on your over anal-izing ....

Let me ask you something C.....

Is it possible, that she asked for the letter/email in a passing conversation , and you are taking this to a whole new level ??

Has she asked for this, more than the one time ??

If she has, I apologize for missing it.

It is normal to want to temperature check, and I am worried that you may be looking for the right opening to do just that.

She gave you that one shot at sticking your foot through that opening, and you are kicking the opening larger.

And what I am worried about, is that you will take it too far. You have obsessed about writing the thing, so that it is perfect.

Don't think that when she reads it, she won't "feel" that in the letter, effectively letting her know that you haven't changed that much internally. Just that you have "reflected" well.

To me, you are NOT in a place where you should be trying to talk your way through this.....

I posted this to Truegritter a couple years ago, yet I see a LOT of this in you too, so I will pass it on to you...

First of all...

I see you growing right now....

And for that ? I am happy for you. You really are taking a hard look at yourself.

BUT.....

I want you to understand something.

All of these new found things about yourself.

You need to be patient with you as well.

These discoveries you are having need to be "felt" to become real.

I have always said that you have to "own" your emotions, and this is no different. It is okay to realize that there is a problem with something, and learn what it is , and how to overcome.

HOWEVER....YOU need to own these things that you are finding.

You have to own it, feel it, embrace it, and take action on it.

AND....if you are sitting there shaking your head yes, and thinking "I know " , I'm coming to visit you with a real 2x4......

Real change takes courage in the face of the battle....fearing the unknown, yet reacting with a lack of fear.

And I'm not convinced that one can go into said battle with someone else's battle plan....

All of your realizations are great Grit.....They really are.....

Unless you own them for you, and actually live them, they will mean nothing to you in the end.

Sometimes I see you acknowledging things simply because someone here says to.

Slow down,and carefully examine you, feel these things as you go through them...

This is a process....

Processes take time....

Everything happens for a reason and by the grace of God, on HIS time.....

Nothing like hanging a $10k chandelier in an outhouse.....?????

---------------------------------------------------------------

What I am beating into you is....

If you go to the Goodwill store and buy an old jacket....

One that fits you really well...

Looks really good...

And is priced right....

That jacket, although you have it for years, will never really be a part of you the way that your skin is...

So, although you may be recognized by it, and associated by it, you can still take it off at night and hang it in a closet...

It will never be you.....just an extension of you...

It's the you that you can't hang up that needs to be associated with you...

Personality is who the world sees...

Character is who you are when the lights are off...

These changes have to be your skin....not the jacket.

Make more sense ?

Bonehead....

Your jacket, is your words...

Your skin, is what your actions are...

To me, you are trying to show her your jacket.....

Originally Posted By: Crimson

Just to add on, now that I am thinking about it. Things have gotten to a point where she LITERALLY believes that I am happier without her - she has actually said that. I don't want her to think that I am at peace with this D, at all. I get the point of detaching, and I have made a lot of progress in that regard. But at what point is that interpreted as "lack of interest" or a true desire to be without them? I am not a pro at DB, but I feel as though that is a possibility of LRT, limiting communication and pulling back - which I have done. Am I reading all of this wrong? People can say "she already knows your feelings, no need to restate them" - but if she looks at me and thinks I am happier without her and out dating up a storm doesn't a point come up where one would need to chime in a bit? Before the the spouse just cashes in the chips because they thing YOU have moved on?

I don't know if this is the right thing to do, or if it is in accordance with DB. But I know that she DID ask for a letter or e-mail, and it is in my heart to let her know sort of where I am AND to continue working on ME.

Crimson

Rick said - that happened to me too - my W thought I was happy with my own life without her when in fact I hated not having her in my life. That means your wife sees that you have GAL an are strong enough to do so. That's good.

I would explain it to her but be very brief and concise, an make sure not to let her see a "woe is me attitude". Just tell her that you want a life with her, can see where and why there were problems before and how you have learned to deal with things better, and that you intend to make the most of your life and be the best person you can be no matter what.

I told this to my W and it worked. It worked because it was from the heart and reflected where I am as an evolved person. She will see the truth in your words maybe now or later because they are just that, the truth.

Originally Posted By: Crimson

I am agree with you 100% GM. And no, I have no expectations of this letter being some sort of cure-all. I do not think that it alone will reverse my the course we are on. I have learned the hard way to keep expectations low at this point. At best, I hope that it will at least get her to see that I am no longer blaming her for this mess, that I am owning my part and that I am working hard to never go back to where I was before. That I want to be a better man, and better spouse and a better father. If all this letter does is leave her with that impression - then I am OK with that. If not, I figure I can't make things worse. Papers are filed, you know?

Crimson

Rick said - just what you said her is enough to tell your W. Nike - just do it!

Originally Posted By: Crimson

Nah, I expect nothing. I mean, I would HOPE for the best - but I don't think this will turn the tide that much. As I said, worst case scenario she get's an idea of where I am mentally and WRT the relationship as a whole. I don't know if I can really make things worse. The letter won't be unexpected or out of the blue. I'll just deliver when I drop off S and that'll be it.

Crimson

Rick said - if positive change is going to come in your M, it will come baby step by baby step. Just keep feeding her the truth in limited doses, then give it/her time for this to percolate. She will hear you when you speak from the heart, but on her timetable. Give it/her/you time my friend. The Great Pyramid was built stone by stone, and it is eternal, much like your new R with her might be.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Originally Posted By: Crimson

Nah, I expect nothing. I mean, I would HOPE for the best - but I don't think this will turn the tide that much. As I said, worst case scenario she get's an idea of where I am mentally and WRT the relationship as a whole. I don't know if I can really make things worse. The letter won't be unexpected or out of the blue. I'll just deliver when I drop off S and that'll be it.

Crimson

I have not read the letter but will say this, the most you can realistically pray and hope for is that a seed is planted.

& that's all...IF a seed is planted and takes roots, YOU will NOT know this until it takes root and sprouts in some way. So take heart b/c while I have hope for you,

I don't see it happening soon.

I think she feels this is her task to do, and she needs to be released to do it and figure out what she wants, values and trusts in life.

Hopefully that will be you.

give her the space and time to let the good memories that exist and the love she once had, resurface in her mind and heart.

Don't block them from resurfacing with your needs for it to happen now.

Step back, GAL and move forward....lovingly

Rick said - I am rooting for you more than The Patriots and that's saying a lot. Listen to 25's analogy of the seed because its true.

My W told me that she was like an acorn. That there was an outer layer (the shell) around her that was her fear and that there was a small sprout inside that needed to first break out of the shell, then take root in the ground. She told me that my strength, size, passionte beliefs to her was like a hurricane passing over her, the sprout. So, she needed time for the sprout to take seed in the ground and grow. And quess what, I listened, gave her the truth when I thought she could handle it or if she asked, and it worked for her amd me. I know this is where you are with your W. Give her this gift and you will never regret it.

25 said - Only address that and assume that she will, in time assess her own flaws.

Rick said - Crimson, this is true. I'm seeing it happen with my W right now. Trust this for you too!!!

Mach said - Just catching up on your over anal-izing ....

Rick said - Mach you are one funny mofo!

I think I have taken all of this feedback and decided to make one of two decisions.

1.) Just let the letter idea die or

2.) Keep it incredibly short and try to stick to some of the key points 25 made

The original "draft" I put together was 4 pages type written - single space. Probably too much. Lord knows that would look like a Tolstoy novel if I wrote it all on hand.

I am doing my best to exercise patience and control, I just feel like the more time that passes, the further removed she gets from me and any real estate I had in her heart starts to contract. DB is tough. I never really know the right things to do, especially when it comes to communiction about the relationship - which I have totally avoided. DB would suggest just pull back and wait for her to come to you. I DON'T KNOW if her asking for this was her "coming to me" or not. I want it to be that - but maybe I want it too much.

I just feel like doing nothing but giving distance (Which I have been doing)is harming and not helping - though I CAN see the case that can be made about giving space and time. I am so lost.
I just want my W and S back, and I don't know how to go about it.

Crimson

Hi Crimson,
Been following some of your thread - honestly haven't been able to read all your posts (you're too prolific!), but enough to know you and I share a lot in common. And man, I have to tell you, I really feel for you. I can identify with what you are going through.

One of the things I tell myself, when I am feeling strong and not wallowing in my self pity, is that this isn't the end of my M. It is a transition, like a caterpillar entering a cocoon to transition into a butterfly. My M - and yours - needs to change to reach its potential. It's scary as hell - change always is, and these changes are particularly so. But the benefits are huge. Imagine having the M you always dreamed of. Now realize that was very unlikely if you and your W kept going the way you were.

So I tell myself that this time apart from my W is there for me to make all the necessary changes to prepare for the next step in our M. I have to identify what I need to change in me to be the H my W wants, then make those changes. And here's the DB kicker - those changes are not just about saving my M, they're about making me a better person.

Another way to look at it is that your M is already over - and if you want your W back, you're going to have to start over with her from scratch and rebuild a completely new and different relationship. I know my W appears hell-bent on finishing the D, and the more I resist the more she wants it to happen. So I'm beginning to think in terms of years for my reconciliation, instead of weeks or months. And it may be post-D that we reunite.

Use this time to improve yourself! Use your free time to do the positive things you couldn't do when your time was focused on your family - get a second job, go to school, hit the gym - whatever, just make it productive.

And hang in there. Direct your focus on how you can benefit by this situation and your outlook with improve. For myself, I know I am a different (and I believe better) father for my kids now that I don't have to worry about how the W would want me to handle things. Although I am devastated for my kids having to go through this, in the long run they may benefit by being exposed to me in this way instead of the way I was in the M.

People who had been though this kept telling me "It will get better in time", and I heard it so often I started resenting it. But it is true. Try not to focus on what you've lost, but what you have to gain - personally, as a father, and as a H.

Be well

Quote:

I put together was 4 pages type written - single space

Yeah... the first image that popped into my head when I read that passage was the letters that the guy in the movie "Seven" wrote... that can't be a good thing

Quote:

DB would suggest just pull back and wait for her to come to you.

Kind of where I'm at... nothing seems to sway her from the course, so I surrender... which is sort of what everyone's been saying to do anyway. Surrender to the situation and let the river flow. This too shall pass. Focus on your life. I'm working to focus on mine. If she wants to interact we do... but I limit because frankly I can't take a lot of it anyway without hurting.

I find I'm happiest when I'm doing stuff... either stuff for me or stuff with S. And I'd really prefer to be happy. So go be happy. Realize that life with W and S isn't going to happen, at least not now, and find a happiness that isn't there.

Right now about the only time I really get sad is when I see how this is impacting my S, SS, or SD and causing them pain. Here and there I feel the sadness of rejection and loss of my W, but honestly that does get better.

You might consider letting the letter die. She knows how you feel.

Remember what was posted....."words are easily misinterpreted...actions rarely are..."

If I could do one thing over under the same circumstances, it would be to STFU. I mean it. I wouldn't say sh!t once the bomb was dropped. Actions speak louder than any words...and I'd let my actions do the talking. Whether she was receptive to them or not would be something that I could not control.

Crim....

Google a "Lessons of a Chinese Bamboo Tree"

Read about it and the process it takes to grow...

THAT is what 25 is trying to get through to you....

Originally Posted By: Rick Said, or however F-ed up way he quotes

Mach you are one funny mofo!

What do you mean I'm funny?

What do you mean, you mean the way I talk? What?

Funny how? What's funny about it?

Problem is, Antlers - we never SEE each other. Just during brief baby exchanges. How are actions visible then? I see that as a MAJOR challenge in my situation. Regardless, I am doingthe best that I can with actions - it's really all I have.

And honestly, I'm not sure she knows how I feel at all, Antlers. The last time we had a R talk, I was a blubbering mess - that was months ago. Now she just sees me as happy to be without her. We have not said a THING about the R since then, really.

Maybe I am just hitting a frustration point - like I am running full speed into a wall in this DB process.

Crimson

Originally Posted By: Crimson

Now she just sees me as happy to be without her.

Believe it or not, that's attractive to her.
She knows you care about her and she knows you want to save the marriage...believe me.
And btw, if you really are happy right now...that's a real good thing Crimson...regardless of anything else.

How? How is that attractive to her ????? I'll be the first to admit I am dumb as a sock load of oranges here, but how does she make the connection "I leave. Wow. He is happy, how do I get in on that? "

Clearly, my ability to understand this leaves me as confused as Boo Radley. I just wonder what the psychology behind this is.

How does she know I want to save the M of she thinks I am happier without it? No hostile here, just truly confused.

Crimson

Let's do this on a new thread....

This one is gonna get locked up tighter than my ex's lingerie drawer soon...

I think gabbysmom23 answered your questions very well. Do you honestly think your wife, or any other woman, is gonna be attracted to a whiney, crying, miserable man? The answer is a resounding NO.

There is no down side to you being happy, if you are, in this situation.

I do agree with Mach1 that you should start a new thread so that this one doesn't get locked in the middle of this topic...

Although I do also want to put yet another spin on GM and antler's comments...

Perhaps the most important thing to understand is... before you try to figure out how being happy could be attractive... it is really important for us to realize just how UN-attractive being miserable, or even slightly unsatisfied and needy, can be...

If we get rid of what is most certainly un-attractive... then we can worry about how to be attractive while being happy...

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

...it is really important for us to realize just how UN-attractive being miserable, or even slightly unsatisfied and needy, can be...

A truism.

Thread 6 just created to preempt this one being preempted.

Crimson

Originally Posted By: Mach1

Let's do this on a new thread....

This one is gonna get locked up tighter than my ex's lingerie drawer soon...

good one

Mach said - What do you mean I'm funny?

What do you mean, you mean the way I talk? What?

Funny how? What's funny about it?
_______________________________________________________

Rick said - every now and then you say something that really strikes me as funny - I'm giving you a compliment! A sense of humor is so essential to get through this joyous DB world.

kd said - methinks rick89 missed the sarcasm...

Originally Posted By: rickb89

every now and then you say something that really strikes me as funny - I'm giving you a compliment! A sense of humor is so essential to get through this joyous DB world.

Really ?

Never seen Goodfellas???

Thanks for the compliment......

I do laugh,often......I'm a funny guy !!!

Like...when I posted that to you...

: )

Originally Posted By: Kaffe Diem

kd said - methinks rick89 missed the sarcasm...

LMFAO !!!!

Well said KD....

Yup funny you are.

Like over - "anal"ized. I had the classic Butthead moment...uh-huh-huh-huh...he said anal

BTW I'm referring to your comment to Crimson

Crimson... You're at 114 posts... Better start a new thread...

Mach - just watched "Lessons of a Chinese Bamboo Tree: Loved it, very inspirational. Sent it to my W. thx