My original post:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2167982&page=allI thing my W is out GAL’ing me!!!! She has been going out with different friends several nights a week. She is joining the YMCA. She has friends relatives that are recently divorced and asking her to go out. I don’t have the friend network here and the people I do know are married or not the kind of guys I’m used to hanging out with. The things I am interested in are not a great place to meet new people my age and situation. I own my own business so don’t meet many people there. I like to golf and have started volunteering at Habitat for Humanity. These are not exactly great places to meet new people and more specifically, women. It just seems that everything my W is doing are creating opportunities for her to meet OM. I need to get on that track but don’t have the network. This will be a challenge for me.
She did call me today and told me she wanted to join the Y. I said fine. I also called her back and said I might want to join it too. Don’t plan on going with her but it would be a good outlet and potential area to meet people. I don’t want to cheat on my wife, but it sure would be nice to know I have options after this D is completed. It would be good for my confidence too. I need to find more social groups.
I also think that the fact we’re living together is forcing her into these social situations because she cannot get the separation she says she needs with us living under the same roof. Not sure what to do about this one.
hahahaa... I'm sorry, RO...
Did you really "call her back" to tell her you might join the Y, as well?
Not saying it's a bad idea that you're joining the Y to get active and meet people...
I'm just wondering... after the first conversation that your W told you she was thinking about it...
What do you think was going through your W's mind when you called her up to tell her you might, too...?
Other than that, I think your doing a great job trying to figure our your GALing... you might be surprised where you meet people when you do the same things in public venues enough times...
KD, It was actually a bit of a 180....we had talked about joining for awhile but never did it. I kind of discouraged it because it's a pretty good drive from our house. She said she was surprised when I called because I hadn't shown interest in the past. I'm looking forward to going...been working out in the house for the last 10 years.
Fair enough... I just found it humorous... no offense, of course...
So the 180 would be actually going to the Y? That just seems more of a GAL to me, since you already work out... but no matter... just my perspective... *shrug*
Do you have any other 180s that you are doing or planning on doing... that you could be a little more... mysterious about... like, as in... not telling her BEFORE you do them?
Hey hun, I just wanted to let you know that, you know how I always put the empty milk jug back in the fridge, well I'm going to stop doing that now... and starting this Sunday, I'm going to let you sleep in and go out to breakfast by myself...
Went to C today. Talked about controlling the controllables…..used to be one of my mottos to live by. I have officially dropped the rope. My W, or whatever being has occupied her body, can run. It will be difficult but I’m done. Off to the Y!!!
woah...
you kinda ran off leaving us with a few mixed messages there, RO...
So C was good / not so much...?
Let us know...
I have officially dropped the rope. My W, or whatever being has occupied her body, can run. It will be difficult but I’m done. Off to the Y!!!
What happened?
C was good. I got worked up which is probably a good thing to get some things off my chest. She pointed out several things that I worry about that I don’t control. The biggest one is my W. She seems to hate me. I don’t deserve to be hated. I know she needs that to justify the screwed up thoughts she is having. She has to live with it. I don’t.
Incidentally, I just asked her to fill out a form to make the Y a family membership and she absolutely exploded on me. “ this was my thing”, “now I’ll be thinking of you when I’m there”, etc…. I told her if she wants me to get out of the house so she has time with the kids, I need somewhere other than a bar to go. This is a perfect fit. Not sure if this is a good thing or not, but I’m sure looking forward to going. I guess it is good. Let her stew. I’m done feeling bad for her. She should feel bad for what she’s doing. She can hate me and I can love myself.
ok... she hates you...
personally, I think that's better than the alternative... being apathetic...
at least she still has emotions for you...
your are probably right, you don't deserve to be hated... hatred and anger generally come from fear. What you might be seeing is that she is lashing out at you in classic WAS behaviour and just giving you... reasons... but you don't know what her fear is...
time... is your friend... no matter how much you might dislike time right now (hate is such an ugly word)...
let time allow her to cool off and clear her head... before you take any drastic measures...
chances are... in a day or a few or a week... you'll see the elastic band / roller coaster show up...
Thanks KD and I hope you’re right. I came home from working out tonight about an hour ago and she said she was right that she overreacted to the whole Y thing. I told her that it is a nice place and we should have joined earlier. She said she was furious. Incidentally, I think my resistance to joining in the past was a pretty big deal to her. I can see why now. My reversal on wanting to join was a shock to her.
She had also packed a bag. She left and said she will be back on Wednesday. Said she needs to figure things out. Find out why she’s so upset. This could either be very good or very bad….not sure how it could get much worse. Like I’ve said before, she is literally the nicest person I have ever met and I’ve been around the block a few times. She has tremendous anger and hostility inside her right now. She is not a decision maker. This D decision has to be especially agonizing for her. That is not good. She is not equipped to deal with it. She might be feeling the BGP’s tightening up.
This was supposed to be “her night” with the kids. She had them for 3+ hours and they said she didn’t play with them at all. Very out of character. I played a quick game with them before bed.
I have to say, I am worried about her. In light of the recent tragedy from one of our fellow DB’ers, I am concerned. I sent her and her best friend a text and have not rcvd a response from either. I hope she is ok.
chill, RO...
and she said she'll be back wednesday...
leave her alone...
k...?
I agree with Kaffe. Don't send TM's or emails while she's trying to get space. I recognize those feelings and I remember how desparately I wanted to just get away from my H so I could breathe.
RO, the worst thing you can do right now be a presence to your W. When our spouses say they need "time and space", nothing else will do. We have to give it to them.
Leave her alone. Don't talk about anything that is not of life-or-death importance. No phone calls, no e-mails, no text messages, no smoke signals...nothing.
It is a hard fact to face, but she wants nothing to do with you right now, and the more you chase, the faster she will run.
RO,
I agree with the others -- GIVE HER SPACE. No TMs, no "needy/grabby" behavior.
Your wife is angry right now -- LIVID, even -- because she very likely feels that "Oh great, NOW he makes these changes -- after HE FORCED ME to make some really STUPID DECISIONS, and now I've screwed up! How DARE he make these changes NOW, after I've been hurting for so long!!!"
Might not be fair, but that is likely the thought/feeling process she's going thru right now.
Starsky
Thanks all. That’s exactly what I’m doing. Not real difficult to be honest with you. We did swap a few texts late last night. I was concerned for her safety. I was suspicious as to whether or not she was being honest about where she was going. She was driving 3 hours to get away last night??? Seems pretty illogical even considering our situation. I did ask if she was going where she said she was and if she had anywhere to stay yet. Didn’t ask if she was lying to me. She sent a TM around 1 last night that she was safe and just checked into a hotel.
I am not contacting her. I really don’t care where she is but I will be upset if I find out she lied to me. I don’t think she did. She did send me a few kids related TM’s today. I gave short and direct responses. No probing or any question whatsoever. She just sent me a TM saying she is not coming home tonight. Should be interesting.
Starsky…..I think/hope you’re on it like a fat kid on a cupcake. It seems that’s exactly what’s going on in her head. She is destroying a lot of lives without us working together at all to try to fix our M. I obviously have a biased view of this, but that just seems absolutely ludicrous.
Incidentally...even when I suspected she may be lying to me last night, I was not real upset. I think I may actually be dropping the rope. Last week, my perceptions of her possible deception drove me insane. I thinks that's good.
Sorry.....she IS coming home tonight....typo in previous post.
Incidentally...even when I suspected she may be lying to me last night, I was not real upset. I think I may actually be dropping the rope. Last week, my perceptions of her possible deception drove me insane. I thinks that's good.
It's very likely that she is lying.
It's also extremely likely that there's not much you can do about it -- she will do what she will do. All you can do is enforce your OWN boundaries, and not HER behavior.
Starsky
My W gets extremely agitated when I am happy around the house. I’m working the 180 as much as possible. Is it possible to overdue it? My happiness is not manufactured for the most part. I am not acting. She is just frickin miserable most of the time and I am pretty upbeat these days. Am I pushing her away because of this?
My DB coach basically says I should try to make her comfortable around me. Make myself attractive. I think I am making myself attractive but is p’ing her off in the process productive? Can she be attracted to someone who makes her agitated because their happy? Weird situation.
I think I may actually be dropping the rope.
You have to be able to detach, first.
My W gets extremely agitated when I am happy around the house. I’m working the 180 as much as possible. Is it possible to overdue it? My happiness is not manufactured for the most part. I am not acting. She is just frickin miserable most of the time and I am pretty upbeat these days. Am I pushing her away because of this?
My DB coach basically says I should try to make her comfortable around me. Make myself attractive. I think I am making myself attractive but is p’ing her off in the process productive? Can she be attracted to someone who makes her agitated because their happy? Weird situation.
Don't fake it. Involve yourself with legitimate things, and with genuine introspection and self-improvement, so that your happiness radiates GENUINELY as a result of how you feel about yourself. If she says that it's pi$$ing her off, say something like "Look, I'll be honest, I wouldn't wish what we're going thru on ANYONE, but I've also used this challenging time to find out some things about myself that I wasn't too crazy about, and I like the improvements I'm making. I still have a long way to go, but I've decided that life is too short and I choose to be happy, and not miserable."
Or something similar that sounds like YOU.
Starsky
Ok. Had a great time yesterday with the “family” celebrating s7’s bday. W did try to bring up separation (her leaving house and taking kids w/ her occasionally to other house) just as the day was starting. Trying to pick a fight. I asked if she thought that now was the best time to discuss it? She dropped it. Went to an amusement park and had a great time with the kids. Just before leaving, she tried to pick another fight.
On drive home (kids had headphones on in car) I told her I knew she was upset with me, but I truly feel she is looking for anything to spin into a negative light to continue to fuel the fire she has towards me. She is trying to stay upset and I really don’t give her any ammo to help right now (not saying there isn’t plenty from the past). We got home around 7:30 and she went to go “workout”. She later sent me a text saying she was going “out” for a while and would be home around 1:00. She is exhausted, very behind in work, has taken a couple vacation days in the past week to spend time with kids, drove over 6 hours round trip Monday night til Tuesday afternoon to get “space” again neglecting work.
She told me this morning she didn’t actually workout last night. I assume she went to her best friends house but I didn’t ask.
WTH is going on in her head. I know someone is going to yell “A”. Really don’t think that’s it. Her BF tells me she just needs space. I have offered to let her live in our investment property. I have told her I do not agree with her taking the kids there for any reason. They need the stability our home provides. I will not negotiate this with her. Should I?
Per my DB coach, I told her this am that for the vast majority of our relationship, I took a “this is how I am so deal with it approach”, with her and that that was a ridiculous attitude to have in a M or any relationship for that matter. We talked awhile about it.
I am getting discouraged. I have been at this for 6-7 weeks (I know that’s not a long time). I am not a real patient man but I have become much more patient lately. I see no real signs of her changing her mind on the D. I am feeling a lot better about myself and I know that is really the main goal of DBing. I look at my W with such love now. I desire probably as much as I did when we first met. I hate what my actions and inactions have done to her wonderful spirit. I want nothing more than a fresh start but I know it is very unlikely. I want her to be happy in life and I know I can help her get there is she could only find a way to let me. I also know that probably won’t happen.
I know we both own our parts of this, but my prior actions have lead to the destruction of our R. I only hope that my current actions will also lead us on the path to reconciliation. It is very frustrating though. I am letting her run and it just seems she is running away as fast as she can and my DB’ing is making it easier on her…….
WTH is going on in her head. I know someone is going to yell “A”. Really don’t think that’s it. Her BF tells me she just needs space. I have offered to let her live in our investment property. I have told her I do not agree with her taking the kids there for any reason. They need the stability our home provides. I will not negotiate this with her. Should I?
Per my DB coach, I told her this am that for the vast majority of our relationship, I took a “this is how I am so deal with it approach”, with her and that that was a ridiculous attitude to have in a M or any relationship for that matter. We talked awhile about it.
I am getting discouraged. I have been at this for 6-7 weeks (I know that’s not a long time). I am not a real patient man but I have become much more patient lately. I see no real signs of her changing her mind on the D. I am feeling a lot better about myself and I know that is really the main goal of DBing. I look at my W with such love now. I desire probably as much as I did when we first met. I hate what my actions and inactions have done to her wonderful spirit. I want nothing more than a fresh start but I know it is very unlikely. I want her to be happy in life and I know I can help her get there is she could only find a way to let me. I also know that probably won’t happen.
I know we both own our parts of this, but my prior actions have lead to the destruction of our R. I only hope that my current actions will also lead us on the path to reconciliation. It is very frustrating though. I am letting her run and it just seems she is running away as fast as she can and my DB’ing is making it easier on her…….
Don't really have anything to add here (sorry!), just wanted to chime in to say this is pretty much exactly what's going on in my marriage right now. Keep letting her run...I don't think your DB'ing is really making it easier on her...the DB'ing will (hopefully) be what makes her stop running eventually, look around, and question where she is and just what it is she's running from...
I have offered to let her live in our investment property. I have told her I do not agree with her taking the kids there for any reason. They need the stability our home provides. I will not negotiate this with her. Should I?
No, for the reason you stated.
Stick to your guns.
Starsky
Here we go again…..just went down to the office to tell W I was going to pick kids up. She was distraught/upset. She started a conversation. Not yelling this time….just raising her voice. She doesn’t know shy she is so anxious in my presence. Doesn’t know why she gets so upset when I’m around. I told her I didn’t know either. Told her that over the past 40+ days, I have only been an a$$ during one of them IMHO and I feel very bad for that day. I told her I know I am completely vilified and evil in her eyes and that this vision of me makes her pursuit of the D seem more necessary and justified.
I am taking the kids away next week and she is taking them the following week. I told her I thought that time may help her.
She said she is trying to be nice and she knows I am too. I corrected her and said I am not trying to be nice to her. I am finally figuring out how to be nice to myself. I told her I am very happy and very sad at the same time. She asked what that meant. I told her I am happy that I finally have realized what I have been as a person was not what I wanted to be and that I am very happy that I now realize it and am making the changes to fix it. I am also very sad because of this tragedy (D) that our family is going through.
She said she doesn’t like to keep “running away” (ie going out at night, driving 6 hrs, I guess??). Says it doesn’t change anything and she feels horrible leaving kids. I told her that I understand that if she consistently views everything I do or say with suspicion and skepticism, I understand why she feels the need to run. I understand how frustrating that would be.
I also told her that other that seeing my kids in pain, I hate to see her in pain more than anything in this world. I wouldn’t wish what she’s going through on anyone. Also said I know my words mean nothing to her and that used to frustrate me but I now know there is nothing I can do about that.
I am kind of surprised that at no point did I see a completely hateful response from her when I was talking to her. This is the first time in recent memory when I told her something that was heartfelt that she didn’t make some snide remark or gesture. That actually felt really good to me. I am honest and I do not being treated like I’m not. Maybe me telling her that several days ago had an impact????
dearme...thanks I hope you're right. I am pretty confident that will happen but not real confident it will happen before the D is finalized. I wish you luck my friend. It is emotional torture and this is coming from a guy who had no emotions a year ago!!
I took the kids away Monday-Saturday night. We had a great time camping, hiking, bike riding, fishing, etc. I also hoped that my W spending time in silence would be a big eye opener for her. The night before we were leaving, we learned that her cousin committed suicide. She was not real close to him but it still had an impact. She didn’t confide in me, just gave me the basic info. Her parents came to town to stay with her for the funeral. W left with the kids today for a week. The silence in our house is deafening. It was very hard to say goodbye to my sons, on them and me, and the W for that matter.
She has been pretty distant from me. Cordial but not talking about much. This time apart from each other is important, kind of a pseudo separation. It sounds very selfish and mean, but it frustrates me that she has not spent much time in the house alone. I think she needs to see what her life is going to be like 50% of the time once our D is finalized. Every time I have taken the kids out of the house, she either has her friend stay over or her parents end up coming to town. I know I shouldn’t concern myself with this but I still want things to turn around and think she still doesn’t realize what the D really means. She probably won’t until it’s done.
I have been doing ok. I am still GAL’ing and plan to take it up a notch. I need to get out and meet more people. My social network is pretty small. I need to meet other women. Not to cheat on my W but to start to feel as though I have options and to try to continue building my confidence. When I do go out, I do get the attention of women and that makes be feel good about myself. I find myself thinking about my W a lot lately. I wake up thinking about her, I dream about her. I don’t like the thought of being alone. I feel like I have been for 2 months now. My kids are my life.
I am still feeling better about myself. I have been going to the Y regularly and have been interacting with people there. I have started taking workout classes which I never would have done in the past. I was much more inclined to just do my own thing.
I am being pursued by an old GF. She is in a bad marriage and contacts me frequently. I am keeping my distance. I’m ashamed to say it but it does make me feel good. There is nothing there and I know it. I am trying to not lead her to the conclusion that there is because I know first hand how much interference that can bring into a M. I need to completely blow her off as I feel like I am starting to do the same thing the OM did to my W.
I really don’t have a lot of positive things going right now but I do have hope. Still looking for work and my W pretty much hates me. She looks so attractive to me lately. I feel so much love for her and am tempted to let her know that but I know it goes against DB’ing protocol. I have started to give her some compliments, “you look beautiful in that dress”, etc. Her responses are brief if anything, but they are not negative which I take as a small baby step forward. It’s pretty sad when lack of negativity is a positive but it’s all I have with regards to our R and I guess it’s a start.
I am torn as to whether it’s good for us to be living together. On one hand I get the opportunity for her to see the changes I’m making even if she doesn’t trust them. On the other, she is not getting the separation that she needs. I worry that her not getting what she needs makes the chances of R more unlikely. I do feel living together is best for the kids in the short term but if it doesn’t give us the best chance to R, it’s not the best for them long term.
She had been talking about going to her high school reunion for 2-3 months. It was yesterday and she didn’t go. Haven’t asked her why but I am incredibly intrigued by this. She has been doing nothing but trying to reconnect with old friends and this would have obviously been a good opportunity to do that. I am pretty sure that the guy she had her EA with was going to be there. I wonder if he is blowing her off. Can’t figure this one out.
It seems I am in “no man’s land”. It just seems that we keep rolling along closer to D and she finds just enough reason to stay po’d at me to not allow herself to open up at all. My kids are starting to show signs of trauma. My S7 woke up one morning last week and went and sat in the car by himself for about 20 minutes. I feel so bad for them and this is now my main source of strength. It seems that my W is becoming less of a motivator to me.
Just thoughts….it is quiet in the house with the W and kids gone. It’s very lonely here so I need to get out as much as possible. I need to make the most of this week. Good time to GAL. I have a job interview today (for a job I don’t think I want) and plan to work out at the Y again. I used to be a national caliber athlete and it feels good to be getting back into shape. Went there for 2 hours yesterday and saw an old acquaintance from college and met another woman that was in the class I participated in. Also had a good talk with my brother which is rare. Felt good about the day.
I plan to take some time to reach out to some more old friends over the next couple of days and then I am going on a trip with my Dad and brother later in the week.
I plan to keep contact with the W at an absolute minimum this week….just plan to call to talk to kids at night. She needs to miss me. It will be interesting to see if she reaches out to me regarding anything other than today’s interview. I doubt she will. I will take any contact as a small win though.
It will be interesting to see if she reaches out to me regarding anything other than today’s interview. I doubt she will.
I doubt she will, too.
I am not looking forward to being alone. I need a woman in my life. I need companionship. I have pretty much come to grips with the fact that my wife is gone. I hope she comes back to me, but I see no indication that that is going to happen. She is so bitter and hateful towards me. I plan to stay on the DB path though, trying to keep hope.
I have started opening myself up to meeting new women. I don’t want to and will not cheat on my wife. I realize that there is a fine line. I have spent months being upset at her for having and EA that she still will not acknowledge. That was then and this is now. We are pursuing D against my will and in my mind, the rules have changed.
The thought of having friendships with OW brings me comfort and helps me detach from my W. I have started perusing online dating sites. I haven’t contacted anyone, but it helps me to see that there is potential out there. I hate to think that I will have to start barhopping to meet women. Been there, done that. It has its upside but I’m 40…..turning into the dirty old man at the bar.
This week has been pretty productive and it is going more smoothly than I had hoped. It is very quiet in the house and I miss my family dearly but I am finding things to occupy my time. I worked out for 2 hours yesterday and plan to do so again today. My interview went very well yesterday and they have already set up a second interview. Still not sure I want the job but it is good for my confidence….still trying to get that back into shape.
I have started perusing online dating sites. I haven’t contacted anyone, but it helps me to see that there is potential out there. I hate to think that I will have to start barhopping to meet women. Been there, done that. It has its upside but I’m 40…..turning into the dirty old man at the bar.
I have tried the dating sites and I'll pass on what I've learned. Not to discourage you, but so that you're aware.
Walk into this with your eyes open, it's the wild west out there. There are predators ( sexual and financial). I could give you a list of what to watch for but your experience may differ.
I found that there are a lot of damaged people that have the potential( if you choose to let your hormones run you) to inject more chaos in your life or devalue you to make themselves feel better or to obtain what they wanted without consideration for you.
Be true to your values. Recognize your own self worth, don't settle for less than what you're worth, keep your eyes peeled and your senses sharp and you'll be alright.
I hate to think that I will have to start barhopping to meet women.
Why in the name of goodness would you look for a woman who goes to bars? Would you want a wife who barhops?
If the D goes through and you
do get out there dating, why not go where the standards & values are higher than the women who barhop?
QOS, Thanks for the info. Things have certainly changed since I've been single. I'm sure I'm looking at a learning curve. Thanks for helping smooth the curve a little. I'm pretty cautious by nature.
Sandi, I here you. I wouldn't look to get involved with a habitual "bar" girl. I've been out of college a long time
The irony of your words is that my W has become a bit of a barhopper and I want her more than anything. Obviously not because of, but in spite of. I plan to pursue several social avenues if it comes to that. I do enjoy occasionally hitting the bars with friends to help unwind. The Y has turned out to be a pretty good venue for meeting people.
What Gabby and Sandi said^^^^...Golden words...
Of the 40 or so men I dated...I met exactly ONE in a bar. And he was a jerk. And I only met maybe 3 jerks.
I know people who have met their spouses in bars but not lately and not many.
There are so many ways (GAL is the main one) to meet good healthy people.
Classes, seminars, church, sports, clubs, meetings, JOIN things, meet new people...
I have a brother and a sister who met their present spouses online on a dating site, but they were very specific & detailed...
and the other 6 siblings met in more traditional ways (and through other siblings.)
Can't imagine thinking that a bar would be the place.
Dig a little more and find out exactly what it is you are searching for...b/c I think you are settling big time. And acting out of fear of being alone.
The only thing worse than being alone, is wishing you were.
If you are the type of man to NEED a woman (any woman will do) you won't be a great companion. You need to see that...
Good point on need vs. want. Funny thing is, I was so fiercely independent throughout my M that there were several times that my W told me that “You don’t need me”. I was too ignorant to see what an opportunity that was for me and our M. I should have realized how important she actually was to me. More importantly, I should have told her. I should have shown her. I was not a good husband. These realizations help strengthen my resolve to make the changes I am making in myself. I hate who/what I was. I like who I am becoming.
I understand that my statements may make it seem that I plan to latch onto the first woman I can. Not what I meant. I have no real social circle here. We have been away for over a decade and most of my friends have moved away. When I say I “need” a woman in my life, I don’t mean I need some barfly to move in and take care of me. I simply need to build my social network so that I feel that I have hope of meeting someone that may be what I am looking for in a committed relationship. Right now, my options are pretty limited. Not hopeless, just limited. Most of my acquaintances are married and the ones that are not, aren’t really the type of people I typically socialize with. I hope my GAL activities will help improve that situation.
BTW…just got a call from my atty saying it’s time to pick a mediator. Sent quick TM to W telling her that. Her response was “OK”.
OK, need some help here. The call about the mediator got me thinking. This D is about to take another large step forward. I have a feeling the discussion about assets, child support, etc is going to cause a considerable amount of tension for my wife. She makes a good living and has pretty much been the bread winner for the last 2 ½ yrs. Not good for her in this circumstance.
I understand the whole concept of DB’ing. Here’s the issue: I am going to be fine even if this D goes through. I am GAL’ing, etc and plan to keep doing that irregardless. The real issue here is that I want to save my family. I think that possibility becomes less likely the more steps we take towards finalizing the D.
My W is the sweetest person I have ever met. She will one day regret how she is acting and what she is doing. I know this with absolute certainty. I am almost equally certain that our M issues could be resolved if we were both on board with trying to fix them.
I understand that following the DB plan to the letter, I should remain silent about the M. I should let her come to me. She is not right in the head at the current moment and I know that that is typical in these situations. I simply cannot see how it makes sense for me to let her walk off a cliff without challenging her at some point. I do not mean I am going to be the groveling, pathetic idiot I was when first told me she wanted a D. The doormat has been rolled up and put in the trash. I am talking about the new, confident and attractive me that wants to ask her direct questions about whether she is absolutely certain that she wants to proceed down this path.
Waiting for her to “snap out of it” may be a good strategy under “normal” circumstances. However, I am on the clock…we are in the D process. Asking her direct, rational questions may give her an easier way to back down rather than her having to take more of the initiative.
I have to challenge her at some point for all our sakes. I just don’t know what the best time is. Is it now? Is it the day before we go to mediation? Is it after she shows me a more direct sign of her wavering on her stance?
This is what you said on the 8th of this month:
I have officially dropped the rope. My W, or whatever being has occupied her body, can run. It will be difficult but I’m done.
What was that all about?
I have to challenge her at some point for all our sakes.
What are you calling a "challenge"? Asking her if she's sure she really wants to go this direction?
I understand the whole concept of DB’ing. Here’s the issue: I am going to be fine even if this D goes through. I am GAL’ing, etc and plan to keep doing that irregardless. The real issue here is that I want to save my family.
So what are you really saying? That DB was fine, but now it's got to the serious point and you've got to save your family?
You have been told not to pursue. You've been told not to have R talks. Is it the R talks or the pursuing that you are wanting to do?
Waiting for her to “snap out of it” may be a good strategy under “normal” circumstances.
What makes you think we ever talked about this as being NORMAL? What you are telling us is that we've just been playing a board game? That now you're going to do it "your" way? And after all that, you expect us to say "when" you are suppose to do this your way?
What ever made you think a WAW is going to snap out of it?
You
haven't changed! You are still that same guy that thinks he can make
her change her mind by TALKING TO HER. You are still that same guy WHO DOESN'T LISTEN!
Sandi, I need to start by saying that I truly value your opinion. Your posts have been and real asset to me as I try to navigate this train wreck. I think my posts are written in haste sometimes. I get a thought in my head and just throw it against the wall. That may make me look weak or seem as I am not listening.
Trust me. I am listening.
I do have recurring thoughts that this whole DB process may make me feel better about myself but it also makes it easier for my W to just stroll through this D process with as little “resistance” as possible. I am a goal oriented person. Going against my instincts for such a long period of time to accomplish my "goal" is unbelievably difficult for me.
I get that backing off her position is a decision she has to make. Unfortunately, I also know that this is literally the first issue she has ever taken a stand on since we have known each other. Backing off her stance is viewed as weakness in her eyes. She is trying to prove her strength.
My only reason for “challenging” her is to start a conversation. It seems to me that it would be easier for her back down if we are engaged in a conversation. I really get the sense she wants to but I also get that bringing it up may drive her away. She was completely naïve of the ramifications of D when she told me she wanted it. She has started to process it.
I am not a sit back and wait guy. I am completely the opposite in fact.
I get that your opinion is that I should keep my mouth shut and continue on the DB path diligently. My gut tells me to absolutely trust you and go there. I have a lot of respect for your opinions as I know you are the closest thing to my W that I have. You have been there. I plan to take your advice.
Here’s the issue on this one…..I was on another site similar to this when my W’s EA came to light. I followed the advice I was given to a T. It absolutely blew up in my face and my wife told me she wanted a D. It was an absolute flash point. I look back on that situation and wish I would have trusted my gut at least a little bit and not taken such a hard line with her.
She has no one on her “side” that will ask her any critical questions. It seems to me that I am the only one that has the stones to do it. Maybe that’s not true. Maybe her family and friends are stronger advocates than I realize. Maybe they just have different styles and tactics.
Sitting on the sidelines and just not confronting her goes completely against every cell in my body. I have grown enough in the last year to realize that maybe that is exactly what needs to happen. My instincts have led me to some dark places.
One other thought....isn't this a bit of a game??? Putting a happy face on when you are miserable. Not talking when it's really what you want to do. Not asking my W where she was last night even though it eats away at me. No longer challenging W on her EA even though it has consumed my thoughts for 8 months....
I get and appreciate the process on it's merits. I have bought into it or else I wouldn't be here. I just wonder if it can be tailored to fit individual situations in a more expeditious manner........maybe it can't.
I need to let my W wear her BGP's.
Really,
I'm not super familiar with your sitch but see that we are both in the same place as far as w.
My w wants a D and there is no way to stop her. I DB'ed, 180, and did that which I should do either. Nothing seems to change her mind. That sukks. So I get it and feel your pain.
Let it go honey. The ONLY person you can control is YOU. It doesn't matter what you say or do.. she will say and believe what she needs to in this moment of her life.
You say you want to challenge her. Then continue to be this "new, confident and attractive reallyover" that you say you are. If you ask the same question, regardless on whether it's the new you or the old you, you're gonna get the same answer.
25 reminded me tonight that we DB to save ourselves.. than MAYBE our m.
One other thought....isn't this a bit of a game??? Putting a happy face on when you are miserable. Not talking when it's really what you want to do. Not asking my W where she was last night even though it eats away at me. No longer challenging W on her EA even though it has consumed my thoughts for 8 months
It can be. People sure can misuse it that way. But I think it's more about your expectations. and right now it's about your expectations of her.. NOT You. How about you spin it to read it this way.
How do I stop putting on a happy face when I'm miserable and just be happy?
Why do I feel the need to talk to w?
Why does w going out bug me so much? What are my insecurities?
How can I get past the EA?
Not trying to slam you with 2x4's. I just want you to focus on you. I want you to take care of you.
I don't know to respond to the BGPs. I don't know what they are.
One other thought....isn't this a bit of a game??? Putting a happy face on when you are miserable. Not talking when it's really what you want to do.
If by games, you mean "tactics to obtain the resuling change in the OTHER person" rather than actual internal change in YOU (=becoming the best YOU that you can become,
and then leaving the results up to God/universe), then so be it.
It's Your loss if you see it that way...and the loss of your m in all likelihood....
Not asking my W where she was last night even though it eats away at me.
B/C this isn't about Your wife filling Your needs right now...
it's about YOU working on you, doing the 180s (which are???)
GAL - and becoming the
best man and husband and father you can.
I can tell you for sure that as a mother, I cannot imagine a woman being unmoved, by seeing the loving interaction of her children with their father.
I daresay it's at least an emotional turn on if not more...be the best dad you can be --NOT to get HER back, ***"tactic alert, tactic alert"****
but to be the best dad you can be, knowing your kids need you now more than ever. And yes, it's attractive as hell.
No longer challenging W on her EA even though it has consumed my thoughts for 8 months....
B/c you believe she'll think you forgot about it if you don't remind her of it eery chance you get AND that you still harbor resentment?
oh that...BTW, all this talk about reconciling is pointless if one forgets that if you want your spouse to return to you the KEY is
THEY have to be convinced that marriage to you would be better "from this day forward" than before...What is different about you now than before? (Hence the 180s)...how are you contrasting the negative images she has or created, so she could justify leaving the marriage? THINK ABOUT THAT...
You must contrast those negatives with positives so she can see that her "data" about you is NOT REAL now...if you were late a lot, now be early for appointments. That's an easy unemotional trait
but I"m sure you can think of more personal or emotional issues or traits that you could do some 180s on, that would benefit you and your m and your w.
(regardless of whether her complaints were ever valid or partly or at all, IS NOT the point...
point is demonstrating that NOW you are a better man--in fact--the best man for her and the kids....Get it? Lose the past or be bound to repeat it)
The more you bring up the EA or "challenge it", the more that two bad things will continue to happen.
First, challenging/questioning her choice you will force her to defend her choices so that will mainly cement those choices in her mind.
Hey We all have egos, no one likes being wrong or having it publicly made so (the fewer people who know, the better b/c it's easier for her to return and besides you have kids...what are their ages and genders?--I'm big believer in NOT telling the kids of an a, esp an EA which for many many people is not nearly the line crosser it is for some...and it's too murky for a kid an way too painful to hear re their mother...
It's just tempting to be Proved "right" by staying with OM and marrying him and blah blah blah...rather than coming crawling back on their knees, which isn't likely but IS what some very angry LBSers have suggested in the past (just a few!) AND
Second,
you want to Keep the Road Home, Paved and Smooth...BUT
bringing up the EA does the opposite!
it's already going to be damn difficult for her to return home.
The more you bring up the EA THEN
the more she'll fear you throwing it in her face down the road, every time you fight
OR
hold it over her head like the sword of Damacles....
do you see how bad that is for both of you? And the kids?
IMHO--Bottom line is if you KNOW you cannot or will not let the EA go,
at some point & with her work...don't bother with all this effort.
(And while yes, yes we know you will have your "boundaries and expectations"--save them FOR LATER for the day we hope will come when she gives a hoot about what YOUR needs and Wants are b/c I"m guessing she feels she has done the bulk of the work in the marriage...and since you are the one posting here YOU are the one doing the work.
Our Dream Goal- It every LBSers hope that the changes they (the LBSer) have made are good ones they wanted to make anyhow AND that the spouse notices,
& believes your changes are real, & that if she comes back to you, the changes will remain permanent. People CHANGE. Every single day. WE make choices every day. Free will...
I get and appreciate the process on it's merits. I have bought into it or else I wouldn't be here.
I just wonder if it can be tailored to fit individual situations in a more expeditious manner........maybe it can't.
Um yeah see, um NO...I mean sure we all have to try & see what works and then monitor...that's the crux of it.
"A more expeditious manner..." really? Your pain must be unique or special, whereas our situations are mild annoyances that we don't mind dragging on for years.
NOT SO...it sukks for all of us. But your controlling nature is not helping you accept what is...b/c it is reality! IF you are not able to do this approach, so be it. GIve her an ultimatum and be prepared for the worst answer you can get....oh, that wasn't you goal? Then stop going there.
For me, here's what DBing does at its' best.
Behaving in a way that improves a relationship is Doing what works to make that happen.
That is 'solution based therapy; a simple but radical concept forming the cofd that does NOT mandate we all know why we felt abandoned at age 9 or molested or have mommy issues or how we felt the first time etc etc...THOSE issues ARE important...but there are other places for those to be worked on.
HERE we simply want to be better partners by figuring out what helps our M's and doing more of those behaviors, and learning Not to do what hurts the Ms...even if we think we are "Right" to engage in a 'not working' behavior...
make sense?
DBing is not about being "right, damn it!", but about being happy. Ask yourself honestly, which is more important to you
and whether that choice is revealed in your actions,...
I need to let my W wear her BGP's. I don't know what you mean by this^^^ sentence.
IF you are in a position to set and enforce a boundary, so be it. Great...
IF you are reacting due to: anger, frustration, pride, a wounded ego,
and or desire to "teach her a lesson" or "show her the consquences of her actions" PLEASE KNOW
this is NOT coming from a place of love or light or, wisdom in you.
It sounds mostly punitive, or worse. And it will make you look vindictive and backfire.
So until I know specifically what you mean, that's all I can say. Well,
And good luck!!
easier for my W to just stroll through this D process with as little “resistance” as possible.
First of all, if she wants a D she is entitled to a D no matter how much resistance you decide to put yourself through.
Because...
Unfortunately, I also know that this is literally the first issue she has ever taken a stand on since we have known each other. Backing off her stance is viewed as weakness in her eyes. She is trying to prove her strength.
So how much of you challenging her was your old M? How much of your old M is you taking charge and bullying her?
I am not a sit back and wait guy. I am completely the opposite in fact.
Hmmm... something tells me that this might be the guy she is walking away from?
And your challenges are...more of the same.
How about trying to be the opposite of being just the opposite of a sit back and wait kinda guy?
This is a game and one you won't win IF you believe it IS a game.
If you are acting your changesjust as a tactic and don't mean them.
She will sniff you out like a drug dog at the Miami airport.
You have been getting good advice from these ladies here.
It is time for you to swallow a big helping of humility because you won't save your M without it.
Anyone not humbled by this tragedy and process is doomed to repeat it I am afraid.
Goal oriented? What part of your goals do YOU control?
Wow! Thanks for the feedback.
Valeska, sometimes I need a 2X4 treatment. I appreciate the perspective and you are right. BGP=big girl panties….basically my W having to deal with the process and ramifications this D will have on us and our extended families. Good luck to you my friend.
Thank you MLC. I have definitely picked up my “fathering game” since W asked for D. I know they will need a lot of love as we proceed down this path. I have a new perspective about them and people’s happiness in general and I now have a lot more internal joy when I see theirs.
Incidentally, W asked me several weeks ago why I was spending more time with kids. I told her “I am simply trying to show them as much love as I can”. Her response was “I think I’m going to be sick”. She is hurt by the fact that I get more time with them since she works a lot of hours. I love my kids dearly. My intimacy issues have hindered my ability to express it freely even to them. I am sure you’re right that my new found emotional attachment to them will become attractive to W.
I have processed the EA. I have told her I forgive her (even though she still doesn’t admit wrongdoing). I no longer obsess about it…I did for several months. Sure I still think about the OM, but I am pretty convinced he is out of the picture. I am not going to “challenge” her. I realize where she was emotionally when it started. Doesn’t justify it but I understand it.
Here is my “problem” in general with working the DB process. My main issue is patience. I am not a patient person by nature. I am very goal oriented. I like to see progress. I need to know that what I am doing is getting me to my goal. With regards to DB’ing, I know it’s making me better personally. No question. My difficulty is making that the only goal…..it seems it’s only half my goal. The other half is saving my M. I do see that my actions are resulting in less negatives from W but very few positives. I need to get better at seeing these things a small wins. I know I can’t control her. I guess I’m frustrated she hasn’t acknowledged things. I need to be patient. I need to work on making my own growth my only goal.
I am now more open about my feelings.
I openly accept alternative viewpoints as valid. I used to be very black and white.
I have started sharing details of my experiences of my parents D. Never really talked about it.
I have started talking more freely with her and not requiring her to ask several questions to get the “whole story”.
I am speaking confidently again.
I am volunteering at a local charity.
I am spending time with family that I sort of alienated in the past.
I am sharing thoughts of those experiences with her.
I am making great eye contact.
I am talking calmly almost all of the time.
I am listening to her and others.
I am telling my kids I love them much more.
I am being much more patient with them.
I am hugging them much more.
I am playing with them more.
I am spending a lot more quality time with them.
I am much more confident about myself.
I am shaving every day.
I am wearing better clothes around the house and in public.
I am working out a lot.
I am keeping my appearance up in general.
I am starting conversations about other people’s experiences/issue and showing true compassion for their situations.
I joined the YMCA which she wanted to do for over a year.
I am having phone conversations out in the open….used to leave the room.
I am more positive and upbeat in general.
I am consciously trying to avoid negative statements.
I am listening to music more.
I am watching much less TV.
I am paying her compliments about her appearance (not too frequently).
I am occasionally telling her I admire her strength for how she is dealing with this sitch while working so many hours at her stressful job.
I am complimenting the improvements she is making in her running.
I am asking frequent questions about the people in her life that are dealing with physical ailments.
I am acting “As If” as much as possible.
There are more……..
Our boys are 5 and 7 so they will not know about the EA. We have explained why Mommy is sleeping in another room and why we are doing things separately with them but that is it.
She very simply doesn’t trust me. She doesn’t trust my changes. She things they are attempts to manipulate her into staying. She views everything I do or say with skepticism. She dissects everything I do to find negatives spins on them. Maybe consistency and time will fix this.
I do not feel my pain is “special”. I know D is extremely traumatic for everyone involved. It is unbelievably painful. I do feel my situation is special as are others. I have read extensively and have seen numerous people on this site that have been dealing with their situations for a year or more. I have four months. I have a timeline. We are in D process. As we progress, it seems it will be more difficult to turn back. That’s one perspective I am dealing with. I need to minimize this one. The other perspective is that I need to keep DB’ing to make it more difficult for her to take the next step. She sees the new me, she just thinks it’s a sham. Maybe as the days tick by, she will start to trust it enough to back off the accelerator a little.
She says she needs space and I am trying to give it to her as much as possible while living in the same house. She is anxious in my presence. I am sure she has an unbelievable amount of conflicting thoughts going through her head.
With regards to the BGP’s….progressing with the D is difficult and stressful for anyone. This is especially so for my W. She is acting so out of character it is unbelievable. She is just quitting on us and I know she knows it. On a scale of 1 to 10 for issues people get divorced for, I would rate ours about a 1. She knows we haven’t tried “everything”. She is carrying tremendous guilt for breaking our family up. She is basing a lot of her positions and thoughts on assumptions about what I think about things and they simply are not reality. I have told her that before I started DB’ing. She has told me she doesn’t know how she is going to explain it to the kids when they are older. I’m not sure if it’s vindictive or not but progressing through this D is going to require increasing levels of strength from her (especially if I stay on track). I hope her resolve weakens but am preparing for that not to happen. She is learning more and more about what D means and it’s far reaching ramifications.
I thank you TG. I am taking a wait and see approach to this. It is very difficult. Trust me, I have been humbled for the first time in my life. I picking myself up by the bootstraps and improving myself.
As I have stated above, I need patience more that anything right now. I am expecting reactions or acknowledgements from her that simply are not there….probably won’t be for a long while. I need to strengthen my resolve.
I THANK ALL OF YOU FOR HELPING ME AVOID ANOTHER SETBACK HERE!!! I don’t want any more and can’t afford any more.
RO,
Hope you don't mind me interjecting a little bit. You have gotten some great advice from some pretty awesome women. And truegritter, too. Maybe I can add something to that with regards to the whole 'patience' thing.
process may make me feel better about myself but it also makes it easier for my W to just stroll through this D process with as little “resistance” as possible.
If it does, it does.
But you are also changing the dynamics of the relationship by doing this. Taking pressure onto yourself doesn't actually remove pressure from her. If anything, it takes away her opportunity to put it on you.
The impulses you are discussing aren't really instinctual - humans have very few real defined instincts. They are basically expressions of how you tend to interact with the world and a reflection of your beliefs on how you achieve what you want.
That said - still really hard to change operating procedures!
She has no one on her “side” that will ask her any critical questions. It seems to me that I am the only one that has the stones to do it. Maybe that’s not true. Maybe her family and friends are stronger advocates than I realize. Maybe they just have different styles and tactics.
I relate to this, R.O.. Its how I perceive things likely are with my WAW. I would go as far to say that a lot of people are saying "I can't make that decision for you" and she
interprets it as being supportive. She might very well just avoid the people who disagree with her.
Ultimately, her choice is going to have to be intrinsically motivated. I think what Sandi is telling you is that you've got to trust that putting external motivations on her to change a big part of who she is right now, probably isn't going to work out so well.
It sounds like you are making some very sincere efforts to change your personal stuff and I am impressed a lot of those things. It took a lot for me to start shaving every day too.
I wonder if complementing her about dealing w/ the situation is such a good idea.. you say that you think your problems are about a 1 on a 1-10 scale. So do you really think she is showing strength and grace in what she is doing?
The thing about impatience is that there is usually an underlying current of anger that runs through it - anger that the situation is what it is, and not what you want it to be. This can get us messed up. We can really lose ourselves in the past and future - we become less capable of dealing with what is, right now.
I don't know if you've got any experience with it - but meditation can be really helpful with these things. It's free and all you have to do is breathe. Simple.
chaos thanks. I think there may be underlying anger. Her decision just seems so nonsensical to me. Way too extreme. It will hurt way too many people, all of whom I love more than anything in this world. Right now, I actually feel bad for my wife. She is going through hell. I fear that my feelings may skew towards anger and resentment.
I struggle with how to deal with her. I am trying to not start conversations about anything other that day to day things and the kids. A big part of our problems is that I didn't communicate with her. I didn't show her that I respected and appreciated what she did. I feel it's critical to try to do that now but not too much so it seems disingenuous. She definitely notices these words. Sometimes asks why I didn't share them in the past. Kind of walking a tight rope here.
Haven't tried meditation but I have done yoga a few times which is unbelievably out of character for me. It is relaxing.
I appreciate the input and plan to use it.
Really
I want you to step back and see things another way...big time. Not so much a 2 x 4 but a whole different way of seeing things, I hope...even if just for a few minutes....Bare with me.
First, 4 months of this is nothing. It FEELS like 4 years, we know.
But you have to realize that there's No way would she believe you've changed if she's only seen the "new you" for that long
and didn't you say you did NOT DB from the start? You tried some other confrontational ultimatum strategy that backfired?
IF SO, then your DB efforts are darn short lived and it's kinda nutty to think she'd get amnesia that fast, and forget the years of OTHER stuff all to find the new you completely believable...come on...
Wow! Thanks for the feedback.
Valeska, sometimes I need a 2X4 treatment. I appreciate the perspective and you are right. BGP=big girl panties….basically my W having to deal with the process and ramifications this D will have on us and our extended families.
This sounds a tad punitive or condescending to me, BUT I concede it may be merely you letting go or beginning to detach. Or other comments you made elsewhere are influencing me. IDK.
However, SHE IS dealing with the ramifications more than you know. Don't project onto her your fears. Don't mind read.
You have no idea what pain she experienced that brought her to the point of wanting emotional intimacy with another man,
but you DO know YOU have intimacy issues. That means there was a serious deficit in HER getting her needs met, for a long time.
Gloss over this at your peril.
Thank you MLC. I have definitely picked up my “fathering game” since W asked for D. I know they will need a lot of love as we proceed down this path. I have a new perspective about them and people’s happiness in general and I now have a lot more internal joy when I see theirs.
Incidentally, W asked me several weeks ago why I was spending more time with kids. I told her “I am simply trying to show them as much love as I can”. Her response was “I think I’m going to be sick”. She is hurt by the fact that I get more time with them since she works a lot of hours.
More mind reading??
My reaction isn't that she feels more guilt about her long hours (though she may resent you for not doing the same).
My reaction to her "make me sick" comment is that she is irritated that you were NOT spending much time with them before, so maybe it's ironic to her that you are doing this now and only b/c she's leaving. Why not before, when it mattered to her?
(I'm Saying SHE may be thinking this, not that it doesn't matter...)
In fact, it's small but consistent changes over time that are the most convincing. Keep it up.
Be careful not to sound like you are bragging about what you are doing b/c in her eyes, it's probably something you should have been doing all along. It's called parenting.
I love my kids dearly. My intimacy issues have hindered my ability to express it freely even to them.
See, ^^^^I think it's THIS change that may be irksome to her now. This has to have mattered to her a lot for a long time. I'm betting she told you (or sure thinks she did).
But you have to keep up the new you, b/c IF she comes to believe it's real and permanent...that's a biggie.
Plus, you have to work on YOUR intimacy issues anyway. It hinders YOUR own happiness, clearly.
IDK what you mean when you say it, but I'm gleaning from your posts that you were critical and negatively programmed, and that expressing love was NOT something you did much.
Guess what? If you don't express your love much, people don't feel much love from you either. Makes them lonely, angry, hurt, etc. All the things you now feel.
I am sure you’re right that my new found emotional attachment to them will become attractive to W.
Eventually, if she trusts it's real, yes she will. Who wouldn't?
I have processed the EA. I have told her I forgive her (even though she still doesn’t admit wrongdoing).
Why did you feel the need to tell her you forgave her? She didn't think she'd done anything wrong, so unless you were pointing out that you DO think she was wrong, Why didn't you keep it to yourself?
If someone approached you and said they forgave you for something you didn't believe was wrong, Do you see how preachy and judgemental that would sound? It would be like them reminding you that THEY believe you DID do something wrong...also
it might look like you expected something in return...either guilt, or
movement from her towards you?? There is a lot of info on forgiveness around here. It's not so much for them as it is for US...(when you get that, it'll be a real leap.)
Besides, in her eyes, she MAY feel you pushed her into the emotional arms of the OM due to your intimacy issues, causing her loneliness....
I no longer obsess about it…I did for several months. Sure I still think about the OM, but I am pretty convinced he is out of the picture. I am not going to “challenge” her. I realize where she was emotionally when it started. Doesn’t justify it but I understand it.
To her it probably does justify it. Since I don't know what you mean by "emotional affair" it's hard for me to say much. I do have 5 brothers and I work in a mostly male environment. If I didn't have male friends, I'd have darn few friends.
21 years ago, ONE male friend was a potential threat to my m, but I worked it out before it got too far. I saw a chaplain and a shrink and spoke to some pro marriage friends and a sister.
No one judged me. They knew how lonely I was in the marriage while h was in in med school for 4 years and then entered his internship in a new state with us. My loneliness wasn't new, it was unrelenting. I had not wanted to marry a physician and when we married, he wasn't one. Anyway, I never told my h about the potential OM. The only reason for telling him would be to relieve my guilt, and or to hurt him.
But If my h had found out I was "considering" an A, and then said he "forgave me", I probably would have divorced him.
TO ME, AT THE TIME...my h was extremely neglectful of our marriage, our children and my needs. He was also very irritable when he was home, which was very rare. Our first d was afraid of him, thought he was a stranger and "not nice"...which hurt h's feelings of course (but think about how it also hurt her and US!)
Rather than boring you with details or "proof" of my being "right"...which isn't relevant, the point is, that's how I saw it at the time. Completely rationalized it. I Felt h had left me, in effect, or pushed me away so much that when I met OM, who was very attentive and looked like Kevin Costner, heck yeah I felt justified. H pushed me into OM's arms...my real point here is that
Your wife's perspective is, at this point, all that matters. Learn from it.
Here is my “problem” in general with working the DB process. My main issue is patience. I am not a patient person by nature. I am very goal oriented. I like to see progress. I need to know that what I am doing is getting me to my goal.
Um, We know. Pretty much everyone here has the exact same perspective. NONE OF US feel "patient" with this.
And ALL of us want to know that what we are doing is working... OMG, seriously...of course we all want to KNOW that. But there are No guarantees...none. And what might be working might NOT be revealed to us in time, or ever.
Like the rest of us, You have to suck it up, and
be the best man you can be, even if you don't know the future or get a guaranteed return on earth...that's life.
Besides, Don't you have enough of your own personal work to do to keep yourself busy? You know, like the "intimacy problem" that you say your wife and kids felt...?
Do you best & Leave the results up to God.
With regards to DB’ing, I know it’s making me better personally. No question. My difficulty is making that the only goal…..it seems it’s only half my goal. The other half is saving my M.--- I know I can’t control her. I guess I’m frustrated she hasn’t acknowledged things. I need to be patient. I need to work on making my own growth my only goal.
^^^Correct...it's the only thing you control. Accept what IS. Stop trying to control results. We cannot. Try saying (and believing) The Serenity Prayer. And focus on your growth and only yours.
I am now more open about my feelings.
I openly accept alternative viewpoints as valid. I used to be very black and white.
I have started sharing details of my experiences of my parents D. Never really talked about it.
I have started talking more freely with her and not requiring her to ask several questions to get the “whole story”.
I am speaking confidently again.
I am volunteering at a local charity.
I am spending time with family that I sort of alienated in the past.
I am sharing thoughts of those experiences with her.
I am making great eye contact.
I am talking calmly almost all of the time.
I am listening to her and others.
I am telling my kids I love them much more.
I am being much more patient with them.
I am hugging them much more.
I am playing with them more.
I am spending a lot more quality time with them.
I am much more confident about myself.
I am shaving every day.
I am wearing better clothes around the house and in public.
I am working out a lot.
I am keeping my appearance up in general.
I am starting conversations about other people’s experiences/issue and showing true compassion for their situations.
I joined the YMCA which she wanted to do for over a year.
I am having phone conversations out in the open….used to leave the room.
I am more positive and upbeat in general.
I am consciously trying to avoid negative statements.
I am listening to music more.
I am watching much less TV.
I am paying her compliments about her appearance (not too frequently).
I am occasionally telling her I admire her strength for how she is dealing with this sitch while working so many hours at her stressful job.
I am complimenting the improvements she is making in her running.
I am asking frequent questions about the people in her life that are dealing with physical ailments.
I am acting “As If” as much as possible.
There are more……..
^^^Good stuff! One question/Suggestion--Are you doing an GAL activties that help you meet new people? People who don't know, and don't have to know, of your sitch? It helps YOU not obsess and makes you less stressed and more interesting...just overall a good goal.
Our boys are 5 and 7 so they will not know about the EA.
Well geez, I would hope not. Why would you tell them at any age if it's over?
To ME, an affair of ANY type (Let alone an "EA") is SO NOT something to share with the children. The only reason for it is to punish the wayward spouse and for the judgemental LBSer to try & gain an ally, and or make the kids feel betrayed too... and boy does that backfire...
We have explained why Mommy is sleeping in another room and why we are doing things separately with them but that is it.
what was the reason given?
She very simply doesn’t trust me. She doesn’t trust my changes. She things they are attempts to manipulate her into staying. She views everything I do or say with skepticism. She dissects everything I do to find negatives spins on them. Maybe consistency and time will fix this.
They are the ONLY things that will fix this. They are "IT"....
Consistent Actions + time = Change She Can Believe In...
I do not feel my pain is “special”. I know D is extremely traumatic for everyone involved. It is unbelievably painful. I do feel my situation is special as are others. I have read extensively and have seen numerous people on this site that have been dealing with their situations for a year or more. I have four months. I have a timeline. We are in D process. As we progress, it seems it will be more difficult to turn back. That’s one perspective I am dealing with.
Change your perspective. See my signature block for my timeline. And don't assume that even if a divorce goes thru, its all over. I have 2 family members who divorced only to remarry their former spouses a few years later. It happens. My uncle died of cancer a few years ago. If no reconciliation had occurred, he'd probably have died alone in a hospital, maybe with a pal from work or a nurse at his bedside, instead of his wife and children.
I need to minimize this one.
Yep.
She says she needs space and I am trying to give it to her as much as possible while living in the same house. She is anxious in my presence. I am sure she has an unbelievable amount of conflicting thoughts going through her head.
Then at least one goal of yours needs to be to make it easier for her to be around you. Lighten up. Rent some comedies. Laughter is a great bonder-- but don't look for immediate results. Don't expect anything....just BE....easier to be around.
With regards to the BGP’s….progressing with the D is difficult and stressful for anyone. This is especially so for my W. She is acting so out of character it is unbelievable. She is just quitting on us and I know she knows it. On a scale of 1 to 10 for issues people get divorced for, I would rate ours about a 1.
I guess SHE uses a different meter...and do you mean to suggest your "intimacy problem" is a 1? I'm betting it was a lot higher to her...LEARN from this...you have to.
She knows we haven’t tried “everything”. She is carrying tremendous guilt for breaking our family up. She is basing a lot of her positions and thoughts on assumptions about what I think about things and they simply are not reality.
You are doing the exact same thing^^^. All this mind reading and assumptions about HER assumptions. Stop it. Just own your stuff and stay in your sandbox.
I have told her that before I started DB’ing. She has told me she doesn’t know how she is going to explain it to the kids when they are older.
I’m not sure if it’s vindictive or not but progressing through this D is going to require increasing levels of strength from her (especially if I stay on track). I hope her resolve weakens but am preparing for that not to happen. She is learning more and more about what D means and it’s far reaching ramifications.
Not to quibble but let me reword this a little, okay? I hope she evolves and takes in the new information from YOUR growth and your changes...
So instead of making her "wrong" for wanting to end the m, you two both grow from this, and grow towards each other making a new healthier and happier marriage for all. The old one is dead. She wasn't happy and you weren't expressing love to her or your kids. Do you really want THAT m back?
I thank you TG. I am taking a wait and see approach to this. It is very difficult. Trust me, I have been humbled for the first time in my life. I picking myself up by the bootstraps and improving myself.
As I have stated above, I need patience more that anything right now. I am expecting reactions or acknowledgements from her that simply are not there….probably won’t be for a long while. I need to strengthen my resolve.
I THANK ALL OF YOU FOR HELPING ME AVOID ANOTHER SETBACK HERE!!! I don’t want any more and can’t afford any more.
We get it. And you have our prayers and positives sent your way. Good luck, hang in there.((( )))
Thanks MLC. Read it and am digesting it. literally running out the door so no real time to respond. going away for weekend with Dad and Brother. Good time to do some thinking.
Had a great weekend. Good bonding time with Dad and Brother. Minimal contact with W….just a few texts about kids and the house. She did send me one asking if I was ok and having fun, asking me to be safe because the kids need their Dad. I did think about her a lot though….but also thought about life without her just as much.
MLC, I know I am at the front edge of this thing. I need to be vigilant and avoid any setbacks at all cost. I think I am getting more capable of this as the days tick by.
I do think I try to mind read somewhat, but a lot of my thoughts are reactions to things that she has told me straight out. She is not entirely forthright right now but she is steadfastly honest. Occasionally we will have a talk and she will divulge her thoughts to me. I do understand that she realizes what she is doing to our family and I need to fight my instincts to keep reminding her of it. Only upsets her and makes me the target/cause of negative feelings.
On the fathering front, I have been a good father. She would tell you that herself. I have taken it up a notch though recently. Instead of letting the kids play by themselves, I now interact directly with them more. I spend more time talking to them not just giving them orders. I have been taking them more places (camping, beach, museums, etc.). I don’t brag about this as I know it upsets her. I am working for myself right now so my schedule is much more flexible than hers and she feels slighted by my ability to spend time with them. It’s during one of these discussions that I told her I am trying to spend as much time with and show them as much love as possible. It seems to me that her thoughts regarding this are very selfish. I would hope she’d see that it’s best for the kids. She’s keeping score on it.
I have had deep set emotional issues my entire life. I now see that there are probably two reasons why. First, my parents divorce when I was 11 or so. Secondly, I grew up in a family that didn’t show much love. It was there and we all knew it was, but it was not expressed. Still isn’t. We never talked about feelings or serious issues. We just talked about events, what was going on at the moment, when we were going to do next weekend, etc. I never learned to express what I felt. I feel very good that I now see the importance of doing so and I feel even better that I have allowed myself to be vulnerable to several friends and family members for the first time in my life (maybe too much at times!!).
My W did feel that I pushed away emotionally. I now see that I did as well. That realization is what caused me to forgive her. She knows that what she was doing was wrong. She simply won’t admit it to me. I know this sounds like another mind read, but she told me at the time I discovered her emails that she planned to “end it”. Why would she end it if it wasn’t wrong? She crossed the line and she knows it in her heart. Admitting wrongdoing to me at this point is just about impossible for at this point though. I am the cause of all bad things in her eyes at the moment.
Here’s a quick recap of her EA: She reconnected with him about a year ago after a young family member died unexpectedly and had an almost orgasmic response to his presence. She tried to meet up with him again but he refused (she told him it “wasn’t for sex”….mentioning the word to a man is not good). He told her he wasn’t a home wrecker. They texted for several months and had a few phone calls. No physical meetings at all. We went on a trip to Mexico and he asked if she found her “spark” in our relationship and she told him no. He told her details about cheating on his wife when they were separated.
I found two emails she sent to him on the same day in December (I found them in Jan). The first was her telling him we were fighting again. She was going to be thinking about him on Christmas so she was going to have to call him (this makes me sick). She feels trapped and wants to be happy, etc. The second was telling him the only things she couldn’t lose were her job and her kids and that she didn’t think she’s lose them based on our state laws. She told him it was ok for him to respond… basically begged him to.
We then saw him at a public event and she was trying to make eye contact/get his attention right in front of me…actually looking over my shoulder.
Bottom line, she was pursuing him. I do give him credit for not acting but also fault him for not cutting her off more abruptly especially after I sent him a note.
I appreciate that perspective of your experience. I think there are a lot of similarities. I think I have done a pretty good job seeing things from her perspective. I actually feel that I am currently where she was last year. My wife has pushed me away and my eyes are now open to the possibility of being with someone else. The door is open but do I want to step through….
I am focusing on myself and the kids as much as possible. I am going to the Y quite a bit and have met a few people there. I am going to start reconnecting with old friends and hope create new networks. I need to be patient and vigilant.
Just venting...W blew up today again. I had to ask her how she wanted to handle a procedural issue regarding the D today and she got upset. I copied her on a note I sent and the response from my atty. Said she didn’t trust me. Sent a note to her atty…didn’t copy me. Guess I won’t do that again .
She is a mess. I feel bad for her but not as bad as I used to. This is her doing. She has to deal with it. She told me again she wants to move out and take kids. I said no. She needs a court order to do what she wants. Not going to happen. It’s best for the kids to stay in the family home….she says we’re no longer a family. I told her I don’t know of anyone besides her that would say it’s best for the kids to do it. She said it would because she is going crazy in the house. If she’s crazy, it hurts the kids. Selfish thoughts. I told her I know she is dealing with a lot. She started to yell and I left. Don’t need to hear the nonsense.
She said she doesn’t know what’s wrong with her. Doesn’t know why she is so upset by my presence. I told her that she is not a hateful person and she is carrying a lot of hate and anger towards me. Also told her I don’t know why since I have been nothing but civil towards her everyday for the last two months with the exception of one. She didn’t say anything.
This irrational BS is getting old. She keeps digging for reasons to get mad. I could deliver 3 babies in a burning car while plucking puppies out of the river with my other hand and she would complain about the look on my face…….
This irrational BS is getting old. She keeps digging for reasons to get mad. I could deliver 3 babies in a burning car while plucking puppies out of the river with my other hand and she would complain about the look on my face…….
This made me chuckle out loud. Sounds like she is trying to push your buttons a little bit. My w does it too.
Be careful though about telling her how she feels and why she feels that way. Stick to your guns w/o throwing it in her face. Let your actions speak louder than your words.
Keep working on those hard-earned changes!
Val....glad to add a little levity! I try not to lecture her much. I really feel that I know her better than she knows herself at times. Maybe I'm wrong or arrogant. I will keep my feedback at a minimum but I feel I need to help her as a friend at times.
A good GAL day all things considered. W kind of freaked out and wanted to get out of house. I picked kids up from daycare and grabbed a pizza and took them to a park to eat and play. Got them ready for bed an read them a few books…haven’t been able to do that in over a week. They are so sweet. I hate to see the effect this situation is having on them. They don’t deserve it. I need to keep trying to be the best Dad that I can. I get joy out of their joy.
W got home around 9:45. Said she didn’t get my emails to my atty until tonight. Seemed more pleasant but still said she couldn’t trust me. She thinks I have an agenda regarding the D. She is stressed about it. I said I don’t have an agenda and I can’t make her trust me. She said I could but didn’t really elaborate. I missed an opportunity here…should have asked her to explain it. I might revisit it tomorrow. Her lack of trust in me is a huge issue for us.
I told her I realize she is in a space that makes it easier for her to spin everything about me in a negative light. I also told her that I think anything in the world can be viewed with a negative perspective if you really look hard enough. She told me good night. I said good night and called her by her name. This will sound unbelievable, but I went for years without calling her by her name. Must have been part of my issues. I don’t know if she likes it or it irritates her at this point. Probably depends on the day or moment. How can you live with someone for years and not call them by their name? I have been pretty messed up.
I’m going to see the C tomorrow. I’m not sure what I want to talk about. I think that might be a good sign. I feel better about myself. I have started looking for positives and avoiding negatives. I still have a lot of negative thoughts but I am trying to suppress them. It takes time but is necessary. Also going out for a few drinks with friends tomorrow night and I’m looking forward to that.
Confusing thoughts…..I refuse to allow my W to take the kids with her part time if she got a place of her own. She brings it up a lot. I feel that this is the best option for our kids in the short term but I’m not sure it’s the best option for our M in the long term. She will not leave without them as it looks bad if things turn into a custody dispute. I have no intention of that happening.
Here’s the rub…my wife needs space. What if not allowing her to get a place and take the kids with her part time keeping her from what she needs to get her head straight? Would letting her take the kids out of the house for a few days at a time be better for them in the long run if that time saved our M? If I knew for certain it would obviously be an easy call. So few things are certain. I don’t want to get my kids in the middle of this but is a short term sacrifice worth a long term goal?
Not a real productive C session today. She kept wanting to talk about the M….I really didn’t. I’m fed up with it. I can’t change my W. She resents everything I say. She tells me she doesn’t trust me. I am trustworthy. She spins everything I do or say to the absolute most negative extreme possible. She even does this with things I don’t say or do…she just assumes my negativity. I can look myself in the mirror and I know she can’t.
I told C I am done trying to “convince” W. I am planning for the worst (D) and slightly hoping for the best (R). She wants to see my W again but understands that she probably will not set an appt.
I did mention my wife's desire to move out and take the kids intermittently. She didn't seem to think it was such a bad idea which kind of surprised me. Said it "was going to happen eventually" which is pretty close to what my W says. Am I wrong on this one?
I am beyond frustrated but plan to keep working on me. I can no longer allow my W’s negativity to bring me down at all. I need to be strong for myself and my kids. I love who I know my wife really is more than anything in this world. I cannot stand what she is right now. She is full of hate and disdain. She is in pain and I do feel for her but I cannot help her if she doesn’t want the help. I need to find more GAL activities that help me meet people.
I took the kids to the dentist today and I’m taking them to their first football practice tonight and am really looking forward to it. I am then going out with some friends for a few drinks. I need one.
Unbelievable. W just brought up the procedural D thing blew up again. She got a response from her atty that was different than my request….imagine that. She is full of hate. I am glad the kids aren’t here. She keeps calling me a liar. I am full of sh*t. I told her I will not be disrespected. I will no longer be demeaned. I told her that she keeps spinning everything into a negative and that’s why we’re getting divorced. She has vilified me into a complete demon. She is creating this hate and I told her that. I have been open and honest as possible.
I did not raise my voice even though she was screaming at me. Where is that beautiful person? She is gone.
She says she can’t focus on work. Is afraid of losing her job. Says she hates to hear my voice or see my face.
How do I avoid these confrontations. They are so hurtful. She starts spewing venom almost immediately. Should I just sit here in silence and add to her thoughts that I am not willing to talk about anything? I feel like throwing her out of the house.
IMHO, you should pack her bag and tell her that you will not be disrespected. That you've been open with her, calm and caring and that you will not take nor tolerate her behavior. And that if she continues to carry on, she is welcome to leave without the kids.
Sometimes a man's got to re-assert himself. Not in a sexist way, but just to show that you aren't going to take it any longer.
Keep it level-headed and cool, yet not like you're giving in.
Eek. Sorry RO
Unfortunately...
It doesn't matter what you say, she will think what SHE wants. It doesn't matter what you do, SHE will perceive it how SHE wants.
See the pattern.. it's all about HER!!
It sukks, but it some ways it's freeing. You get to act how YOU want. The only person who you have to satisfy in your actions is YOURSELF.
That being said, what kind of RO do you want to be? Not who do you want your wife to hopefully see today or tomorrow or right stinking now!! Do you want be loving and understanding whilst sticking up for himself? If so, be that man.. regardless of whatever craziness your w does.
I personally feel my good changes is causing some the venom from my w. I'm ok with that.. because being loving and caring for BOTH myself and my w is exactly who I want to be.
Continue to be the Best RO you can. She may or may not see it, but at the end of the day.. your head will be held high.
I understand wanting to avoid confrontations. I've been eager to avoid my w too. The venom blows and I don't actually know if it will ever not be painful. Maybe not hurt as much, but the sting will still be there.
Set a boundary here too if you feel necessary. IMO there is nothing wrong with taking a break from the sitch to get yourself emotional healthy for the storm ahead. As long as you working on yourself vs. running away. This D affects YOU TOO. Take time to care for yourself.
(( ))
thanks for the responses. They really help add clarity.
I am really starting to question if I want to keep trying. Am I creating hope or is there hope? I don't deserve this BS.
This person I now live with hates me. Fine. I am no longer communicating with her. She is no longer worth it. One of the main reasons I married my wife is because I thought she would be a good mother. How can a "good mother" do this? I have no more sympathy for her. My sadness is turning into resentment.
I love me. I love my kids. That's all that rally matters to me right now. I love my wife even though she no longer exists.
I am moving on. I am going to be the best Dad I can. I am going to continue making myself better. I plan to start dating other people.
Val, I just read your post. It seems my changes are creating her mindset and it makes sense. She doesn't trust them so she is going to challenge them. I get upset at myself for allowing her to create the conflicts but I think I do a pretty good job remaining calm. I am far from perfect though.
Yesterday I brought up things from the past which are not helpful. She keeps calling me a liar and I feel I need to defend myself.
I am very tempted to write her a letter explaining my thoughts. I know it won't do any good though. I'll probably just write it for me and not show it to her.
She started sending me inflammmatory TM's last night and my only response was "I hope you find peace". I meant it. I am finding mine.
She is no longer worth it.
When will she be again? When she starts doing what you want?
She was worth at one point. The point when you said your vows?
One of the main reasons I married my wife is because I thought she would be a good mother. How can a "good mother" do this?
Just a question. What were the other "main" reasons? A good mother is subjective to you. Right now she is not doing what you think she should. What other things is she not or maybe did not do that didn't fulfill your expectations of her?
When she didn't do those things did you:
I have no more sympathy for her.
React ^^^ this way?
My sadness is turning into resentment.
Well that is normal. I must worn you that if you sprout roots here you will find yourself in the line for a one way ticket to Bitterville.
Population YOU.
Now.
When you took your vows did you say?:
"I will love and honor you all the days of my life."
"BUT if you get scared and make poor choices, then I won't."
????
This is tough stuff Really.
How would you want to be loved? Only when you are peaceful and quiet and content?
Or when you are scared and confused? SO scared you run away?
You do need to find peace here and that starts from within.
If you return in kind the fear and confusion, the pain and resentment, you will sow it in your own life.
In this tragedy we all share there is an opportunity for you learn a different experience than what you have now. Than what maybe you have lived.
To choose it.
At this point in your M someone must be the stronger. The more courageous.
You are here so?
Took the words right out of my mouth gritter. Well said.
I know it's so hard RO. It's so hard to love especially with the venom. But know that the venom is what gritter is saying... confusion, fear. Fear is a huge one!
If you are a good h and are treating her with kindness and respect.. her venom is HER guilt. It's easier to be mean to you, get angry, lie, rewrite history.. etc because if she does that, she does not have to CONFRONT HERSELF. People say "don't fuel the fire". Sometimes that's not possible. Sometimes, if you are truly giving her no fuel to her fire, she will create some.
Yes you don't deserve her anger. yes it p!sses you off. Yes you deserve better. Makes sense. All normal feelings, but not necessarily stuff you should react on.
Something I find really helpful for myself is to ask myself "am I acting in a loving way?" It's really challenging because sometimes fear can look like love. Anger can look like love. We can very easily twist love into what is beneficial to self.
For me, this stops my anger from turning into hate. Stops the venom from being so toxic. Stops me from giving venom back.
I am so sorry she is hurting you right now. Continue to vent here. We are here for you!
I have a tendency to get jump on this site and post raw emotion. Not sure if that’s good or not. I will always love my wife. I do not like what she is right now. I am rebuilding myself and her incessant kicking to the head is becoming beyond frustrating. Fixing 30 years of my own personal misery is difficult enough. Ignoring my own issues in the presence of my kids so I can be the best father possible is hard enough.
I empathize with her. I don’t know exactly what she’s going through but I don’t like to see her in pain. Maybe my raw thoughts are a way of detaching. I want nothing more to help her and she vilifies me at every opportunity based on crap she makes up in her head.
I have pretty much always been cynical. I have recently made the conscious choice to view things from a positive perspective while minimizing negative thoughts. It has really helped me. This being that has inhabited my W is doing the equivalent of spitting in my face. Maybe I need to redouble my resolve.
She has my intentions and thoughts so screwed up in her head its ridiculous. She told me yesterday that I keep shifting my positions on things. I don’t. She told me one day I want the D and the next I don’t, etc. I have never said I agreed with the D. I have accepted its happening but do not agree…been as clear about this as humanly possible.
I am going to write a letter to her clearly explaining my thoughts. Not sure I’ll send it to her. Should I post it here for a critique?
Good suggestion Val. I will try that approach. BTW..she is definitely creating her own fuel. I have not given her much ammo over the last 2 months. She is carrying tremendous guilt IMHO.
W told me yesterday that she doesn’t know what’s wrong with her. I had to throw my 2cents in of course….I told her that she is full of hate and anger towards me and that it is destroying her because she is not a hateful person. At some point the hate needs to dissipate.
She came in today after I returned from an interview and seemed irritated that I didn’t sit down in a yoga pose and divulge every detail of it. I told her that “yesterday she was repulsed by my voice and my face and today she wants to sit down for a chat. I’m not a mind reader. Never have been.” No response from her.
RO, writing a letter that helps you figure out your thoughts is a great idea, AS LONG AS
YOU
NEVER
SEND IT
I hope the extra emphasis here sinks in
You can say this.
Living it is another matter.
Vent here I don't mean to discourage you.
It's good. It REALLY is.
But
You are not fooling anyone who has been here long enough to know that what you feel is real and you DO feel it.
Please don't nod your head and say ok. I know.
Feel it.
And conquer it.
Don't avoid it.
Once you look at it for what it is you can no longer be in fear of it.
Really I did not mean to make you feel admonished for sharing your thoughts here. Only to think.
This process requires a bunch of failure and correction before we learn a different path.
LP, I anticipated a response similar to this. I do have a question though….Why? My W is absolutely tormented. My intentions, thoughts, feelings, and desires are completely jumbled in her head. I know she probably doesn’t care about them right now, maybe won’t for a long time if ever. Isn’t clarity more productive than absolute confusion?
It is very frustrating to me to have her walking around with inaccurate interpretations of where I’m at personally. What good comes of that? I think communicating my feelings with absolute clarity would make me feel better too. I don’t want to look back on this calamity years down the road and feel that my lack of clarity led to the destruction of our family.
I know that a letter may seem as a bit of a “pursuit”. In some way it may push her away. I personally don’t see how she could be farther away from me than she is right now. She absolutely hates me because of things she has construed or misread in her head.
I know actions speak louder than words. I am acting as I think I should. I feel better about myself and still have work to do….a lot of it. I am being the best I can be given the circumstances.
I know anything I say or write or do is going to be met with skepticism. I know she probably won’t believe it. Maybe she will believe some of it. Maybe the words will help validate some of the actions she has witnessed over the past two months. Maybe it will help alleviate her tension if it diffuses a thought she has about me. That is her choice.
Still not saying I’m doing it, but these are my thoughts.
TG, I am trying to deal with and change a lot of my feelings. I have been bitter for a long time. Trying to view positives but my instincts are still negative. I appreciate the perspective.
I know the prior post may seem a bit argumentative. It's not meant to be. I am trying to figure out why a lot of my thoughts/gut feelings are not the best option for a lot of things. I'm a "gut guy" by nature. Maybe that's why my W is running like Forrest Gump.
My intentions, thoughts, feelings, and desires are completely jumbled in her head.
And you know this how? I know what she says and reacts to you but you know what we say around here believe none of what they say and half of what they do.
You are the bad guy right now. I know that is hard to except and you want to fight it and defend YOURSELF.
To her that IS what you are doing. As long as you are defending, explaining, justifying...
Really any sentence that contains me, my, I will be met with opposite view from her.
It is very frustrating to me to have her walking around with inaccurate interpretations of where I’m at personally.
I understand this feeling but really the only thing you can do is show her that you still beleive in your M. That you are committed to it.
Everything else is up to her. You can't control her or her thoughts however wrong YOU think they may be.
I want you to read what you posted up there and see how many times you used the words my, me, and I.
Followed by what you hope to control, communicate or accomplish.
It is good to have goals Really.
They must be things you control. Goals for you.
So what are your goals?
Thanks TG. I’d love to be able to control other people’s thoughts (scary thought)….especially hers right now. I know it’s not possible though. I do think we can influence them. It seems clearly defining my thoughts in writing is a better way to express my commitment to our M than trying to do so when she has the ability to react negatively during a conversation by screaming at me. A letter gives me the ability to get it all out there. It also gives her something to reference in the future that is not rewritten in her head.
I don’t know…I’m a “logical” thinker trying to figure out an illogical mess.
I’m working on myself foremost. I control myself only. Maybe that explains the I, me and mines…..
I don’t believe a lot of what she says but her words do make me think she doesn’t really understand what I feel. How can she possible say or think that I want this D? I know her head is screwed up but this is the type of BS that makes me think clarity is needed.
I think my big picture goals are simple:
Be the best Dad I can
Learn to express my feelings and be vulnerable
Be happy
Re-establish a meaningful career
Save my marriage
Be the best husband I can to my W or some woman in the future
Those are big picture.
Maybe be a little more specific.
What have you always wanted to do that you haven't done?
Me? When this happened I took horse riding lessons because I always wanted to learn to do that.
What things can you do to re-establish a meaningful career?
*Be the best Dad I can-spend quality time with them not just exist in their presence; hug them and tell them I love them; help them learn, and grow; share as many experiences with them as I can; teach them self respect and respect for others; teach them to chase their dreams
*Learn to express my feelings and be vulnerable-say things that I feel don’t just keep them to myself; share my fears; tell people I love that I do and show them
*Be happy-look for the positives in every situation; minimize my negative thoughts; enjoy other people’s joy especially my sons; live for today but plan for tomorrow; do things that I enjoy
*Re-establish a meaningful career-continue searching for a good job but start putting a real effort into my business
*Save my marriage-Do the above to the best of my ability
*Be the best husband I can to my W or some woman in the future-More of the above to the best of my ability
W just came into my room….not for a good reason
. She is distraught. Can’t stand to be in the house. Wants to leave and thinks I’m basically evil for not letting her do so with the kids. Am I?
Tells me a ridiculous amount of times that she needs separation. I tell her to go. She won’t without the kids. Says she has legal rights and that I am trying to control the situation. I calmly tell her I am trying to do what’s best for the kids.
We do live together and I know it’s very difficult for her even though I have been cool as a little Fonzie 98+% of the time. She works out of the house which is an issue for her. I have an office off site I offered to her and she says it doesn’t help because “I’m there too”. I leave the house 3-4 nights a week to give her space and time with kids. She typically leaves the other nights (we do sleep at home). We just spent the last two weeks apart. I have taken several other vacations and trips to give her space. We see each other very little. WTH? Is this a manifestation of her guilt? That’s my best guess.
Anyway, we talk in circles for several minutes. I remained calm, her not so much. She was not yelling but clearly agitated.
She was crying and went into her room. I heard her kicking and punching in the bed like she was losing it……
She just came in and said she was “going for a drive”. I asked if she was ok and she said yes. Man I feel bad for her.
RO,
Eeesh.. Spewing Venom like a cobra. Good for you for handling it with grace.
This is purely a question - but do mean exactly what you are saying about it being best for the kids if they live with you in the house?
As long as you aren't using that as a reason to keep her around and your motives are just that.. than so be it. She will think what she wants. As 25 said "It's life, it ain't always pretty".
Continue to feel bad for her. Staying empathetic is way better than getting angry.
Val,
I do feel its best for the kids to have the stability of our home. I know when the D is final, things will change but I think the impact on them should be delayed as long as possible.
I don't like the thought of her leaving but it is probably for the best right now. I don't think seperation is the answer she is looking for but what do I know. It seems she is buried in guilt. I think she regrets her decision...maybe I hope that.
I agree that anger is not the answer. I am gettin a lot better at avoiding it. Thank you.
General question....when most couples seperate, do they shuffle the kids back and forth between homes????
General question....when most couples seperate, do they shuffle the kids back and forth between homes????
yes, if they share custody.
General question....when most couples seperate, do they shuffle the kids back and forth between homes????
RO
When my W moved out we sat the kids down and asked them what they wanted to do (ours are 14 & 12, so understand a bit more, not sure of your kids ages), and they wanted what we had hoped i.e. a week each at a time. This worked as W only moved round the corner, so schooling remains the same, and they can pop round each others at any time.
Although this has now changed, as the kids want to be with me 10 out of 14 days, and the reason W has become nasty.
It hard, and morally a week each is right, BUT, its what the kids want..
So, what I am saying is........
If what you are saying you believe is right for the children's welfare and well-being, and not your own personal agenda, then stick to it.
It will be hard, very hard, you will get venom spuing big time, but stand by it for the kids
Val,
I do feel its best for the kids to have the stability of our home. I know when the D is final, things will change but I think the impact on them should be delayed as long as possible.
Maybe so. But beware it looks like you are trying to control things again. And plus you didn't spend much time w/them before the bomb so she's seeing it as either a tactic of yours to control outcome OR it's you trying to punish her.
It's mind reading on my part I admit, but something tells me there is an ounce of truth to the above. I think you believe consciously that what you want is what's best for the kids, which is convenient and probably what she believes about her desires for them, but there's a streak of "that's what she gets" in your tone. IDK, just a gut feeling I won't push but I do feel.
I don't like the thought of her leaving but it is probably for the best right now. I don't think seperation is the answer she is looking for but what do I know. It seems she is buried in guilt. I think she regrets her decision...maybe I hope that.
Where do you get that "buried in guilt" feeling from? What has she said or done that indicates any guilt? I just hear about all the spewing and venom and that sounds like anger to me. And given your past - which is probably her focus a lot, I get that.
I agree that anger is not the answer. I am gettin a lot better at avoiding it. Thank you.
Well good. showing her your anger is about the last thing you need to show her or the kids now.
A strong man is in control of HIS emotions, not trying to control others'.
She may need to be released to see what she needs to see.
It's a discovery she has to make that you cannot help her with. She's solving a puzzle only she can solve and you have to release her to her task.
No more judging her okay? It's lousy for the kids and lousy for you...it's a poisonous way of thinking and living. You said that you are working on your negativity and staying positive so you really need to work on this RO...
have you worked on your personal NON-M issues? You said you had "30 years of misery" to deal with along with the pain of this, and I wonder how that work is going. I assume you meant deficits in childhood and the way your family dynamics were...
also financially=are you seeking alimony from your w? IDK if you are in the US but are you expecting to get half time custody?
lots to work out and so does she. Maybe if you keep the road home paved and smooth, things will turn around. Or maybe they'll turn around after the separation happens. I do think you need to stop talking so much and your need to "clarify" will backfire. You could write 39 things on a sheet of paper and the more you write the more likely SOME part of it will be at odds with her recall. She will focus on THAT part of it and it'll have been for nothing.
IMO, there are only two responses to venom spewing about the past...
1) IF there is simply no validity to their recall of an event or it's out of the blue MADE UP...you can say "wow, i don't recall it that way at all but I'm sorry you felt hurt"...
2) if there is SOME or a lot of validity to what they say you reply "I hear you and if I had it to do over again, there are a lot of things I would do differently."
Neither of these responses can really be argued, they diffuse without you being a doormat.
Also they both show a CHANGED MAN b/c if #1 applies, you have said you are sorry if she was hurt...perfectly reasonable.
If #2 applies, you are owning the behavior and showing that you "get it" and that's different now b/c you are changing the behavior. Problems being worked on, are no longer problems...
make sense? No need to engage in any detailed arguments.
As for the Legal issues, let the Ls work them out. That's what we're here for and it spares you from dealing with the ugliest parts of this AND separates you from the legal fighting in your w's eyes. The less involved you seem to be the more your L can take the heat. You want that.
It's keeping the road home paved and smooth and
even if you decide to give up and quit the pro marriage efforts
having a smoother r with the mother of your children is a good idea.
Hang in there, keep up the DBing work on you and only you.
You are all you are in charge of.
25 n GAL, thx but not a lot of time to respond right now. Will do later.
Been thinking a lot about the separation. Seems she wants to leave with the kids 50/50 with more regard for herself than the kids. I would be more open to the suggestion if we weren’t in D proceedings. If she was willing to work on things and wasn’t so emphatic that we are done maybe I’d have a different opinion. Should I tell her that? Seems at this point it would only make it easier on her. Protecting my kids well being trumps that every time. Maybe if we weren’t in D process, I’d have a different mindset. Make any sense? Sounds sort of vindictive. I don’t like seeing her in pain but I hate the thought of my kids being in pain.
She does have legal rights and there is nothing stopping her from asserting them.
You are the object of her unhappiness right now.
Best not to give her more reasons to justify that stance.
Without compromising your own values and what is best for you and your children.
Don't use your children as a weapon.
If she wants to separate or D she is legally entitled to do that.
As 25 said, she may need to follow this through before her perspective changes.
Right now that perspective is you are standing in the way of her happiness.
Re the kids. It is not your job to repair the relationship they have or may develop with their mother because of her choices or actions...
It is your job not to damage it.
Val,
I do feel its best for the kids to have the stability of our home. I know when the D is final, things will change but I think the impact on them should be delayed as long as possible.
Maybe so. But beware it looks like you are trying to control things again. And plus you didn't spend much time w/them before the bomb so she's seeing it as either a tactic of yours to control outcome OR it's you trying to punish her.
I have actually been the primary caregiver for over two years since leaving my career to move home. I am now making our time together much more loving for all of us.
It's mind reading on my part I admit, but something tells me there is an ounce of truth to the above. I think you believe consciously that what you want is what's best for the kids, which is convenient and probably what she believes about her desires for them, but there's a streak of "that's what she gets" in your tone. IDK, just a gut feeling I won't push but I do feel.
There may be some of that honestly. I don't think it's a motivator though, just a byproduct of a bad situation. She is processing a lot of bad ramifications of her decision to D. She is going to have to deal with that.
I don't like the thought of her leaving but it is probably for the best right now. I don't think seperation is the answer she is looking for but what do I know. It seems she is buried in guilt. I think she regrets her decision...maybe I hope that.
Where do you get that "buried in guilt" feeling from? What has she said or done that indicates any guilt? I just hear about all the spewing and venom and that sounds like anger to me. And given your past - which is probably her focus a lot, I get that.
It comes from things she has said over the past several weeks. She "doesn't know how she's going to explain this to the kids when they're older". She realizes we haven't tried everything to resolve our issues. I have asked her and she can't answer, just says "she's done". She is by nature an unbelievably nice person. How can she, as a mother of two young boys, say she wants a divorce without even considering therapy or a seperation? Won't even discuss it. How can she do that when she sees and acknowledges the changes that I am making? How can she not have guilt?
I agree that anger is not the answer. I am gettin a lot better at avoiding it. Thank you.
Well good. showing her your anger is about the last thing you need to show her or the kids now.
A strong man is in control of HIS emotions, not trying to control others'.
**I like this line.
She may need to be released to see what she needs to see.
**I know. She mentioned the "if you love something set it free" concept to me in the recent past.
It's a discovery she has to make that you cannot help her with. She's solving a puzzle only she can solve and you have to release her to her task.
No more judging her okay? It's lousy for the kids and lousy for you...it's a poisonous way of thinking and living. You said that you are working on your negativity and staying positive so you really need to work on this RO...
**I get it. I am trying to be more empathetic.
have you worked on your personal NON-M issues? You said you had "30 years of misery" to deal with along with the pain of this, and I wonder how that work is going. I assume you meant deficits in childhood and the way your family dynamics were...
**"Misery" may be a bit strong. The last year has been miserable because I have realized what I have been. The rest of the time I think have been superficial and empty inside. The void has caused me to hurt the ones I love by not being emotionally available to them.
also financially=are you seeking alimony from your w? IDK if you are in the US but are you expecting to get half time custody?
**Not sure yet. I am in the US. I left a promising career to come home and start a business. She is the current breadwinner. The plan was for me to start a business. To be honest, I have been such a mess that I have not been in the frame of mind to do that in a successful manner. This D is probably going to suck away all of the cash I have been using to run the business which pretty makes me high and dry. I have tried to explain this to her. This really upsets me. We have never discussed anything other the 50/50 custody. We are traditionally both great parents.
lots to work out and so does she. Maybe if you keep the road home paved and smooth, things will turn around. Or maybe they'll turn around after the separation happens. I do think you need to stop talking so much and your need to "clarify" will backfire. You could write 39 things on a sheet of paper and the more you write the more likely SOME part of it will be at odds with her recall. She will focus on THAT part of it and it'll have been for nothing.
IMO, there are only two responses to venom spewing about the past...
1) IF there is simply no validity to their recall of an event or it's out of the blue MADE UP...you can say "wow, i don't recall it that way at all but I'm sorry you felt hurt"...
2) if there is SOME or a lot of validity to what they say you reply "I hear you and if I had it to do over again, there are a lot of things I would do differently."
**very similar to what my DB coach has me doing
Neither of these responses can really be argued, they diffuse without you being a doormat.
Also they both show a CHANGED MAN b/c if #1 applies, you have said you are sorry if she was hurt...perfectly reasonable.
If #2 applies, you are owning the behavior and showing that you "get it" and that's different now b/c you are changing the behavior. Problems being worked on, are no longer problems...
make sense? No need to engage in any detailed arguments.
**I like it.
As for the Legal issues, let the Ls work them out. That's what we're here for and it spares you from dealing with the ugliest parts of this AND separates you from the legal fighting in your w's eyes. The less involved you seem to be the more your L can take the heat. You want that.
**This is the tricky part and is a significant source of tension. We are trying to resolve things ourselves without paying $30K in legal fees. She wants none our physical assets (house, land (which has been in my family for generations), etc). Now says she never wanted to buy them in the first place. That leaves our retirement accounts and our liquid assets. Retirement accounts, no problem. Liquid assets, big problem for me. They represent my only means of supporting myself if I don't get a job. It's very difficult to discuss these things without nerves getting frayed. It is being discussed only because of her decision to D which I obviously very much disagree with. Another source of guilt for her here.
It's keeping the road home paved and smooth and
even if you decide to give up and quit the pro marriage efforts
having a smoother r with the mother of your children is a good idea.
Hang in there, keep up the DBing work on you and only you.
You are all you are in charge of.
I fear my W is slipping into a deep depression. I explained our situation to a friend of mine who feels the antidepressants she’s taking may be playing a major role in my W’s behavior. She is on a low dose prescription. It may be and explanation for her precipitous downward slide. Doesn’t seem the explanation can be that simple though.
I am concerned for her. I reached out to her BF just to verify that my W wasn’t holding everything inside. She is so nice and worried about burdening people that I could see her not confiding in anyone about our situation. She said they are talking which makes me feel better.
I am considering offering to swap nights out of the house with her. We could leave the kids in the home and we could set a schedule to stay away. I want to help her but don’t want to hurt the kids. She is taking a strange approach….feels like if the kids are going to have a 2 year “recovery period”, why not start it now and “get it over with?”. I love her to pieces but feel she is so naïve about what a D does to kids.
The reality of our impending financial situation is also starting to hit home with her. When this thing first started, she was looking to buy a new home (in the 3000 sf range) in her hometown which is a higher end community about 10 miles away from us. She said she wanted to have the kids go to school there too...I immediately told her that wasn't goin to happen. She now is considering moving into a 1200 sf 100 yr old investment house in our current town. All of our lives are going to change dramatically and she is starting to see the reality of that I think. I think this adds to her guilt.
She mentioned last night how I used to be so certain of my opinions that I wouldn’t consider other people’s insight or thoughts. She is doing the exact same thing regarding this D. It is so spooky that we each seemed to have turned into the other person. She has taken my old persona above and beyond though IMHO.
first, what are you doing to work on you, since you are all you are in charge of?
second, if you are so sure she's riddled with guilt and that she regrets her choice, why doesn't she say she changed her mind or wants to give it another go?
Is it really just stubborn pride that keeps her on track for leaving,
or
Does she think you are making it so much about her being "wrong",
that it would be impossible
for someone with a shred of self respect, to come crawling home?
I'm just asking but yes, i do get pick up a lot of judgement in your tone here. I know you are angry, but own that. It's okay to be angry.
Don't feign concern if it's just anger. Though showing her the anger is a bad idea, it's understandable if you feel it. Just vent here, and not on her.
Denying the anger doesn't teach you how to cope with it.
Did you ask her best friend about her "keeping things inside" b/c you were simply probing for more info? Like what?
first, what are you doing to work on you, since you are all you are in charge of?
I am now more open about my feelings.
I openly accept alternative viewpoints as valid. I used to be very black and white.
I have started sharing details of my experiences of my parents D. Never really talked about it.
I have started talking more freely with her and not requiring her to ask several questions to get the “whole story”.
I am speaking confidently again.
I am volunteering at a local charity.
I am spending time with family that I sort of alienated in the past.
I am sharing thoughts of those experiences with her.
I am making great eye contact.
I am talking calmly almost all of the time.
I am listening to her and others.
I am telling my kids I love them much more.
I am being much more patient with them.
I am hugging them much more.
I am playing with them more.
I am spending a lot more quality time with them.
I am much more confident about myself.
I am shaving every day.
I am wearing better clothes around the house and in public.
I am working out a lot.
I am keeping my appearance up in general.
I am starting conversations about other people’s experiences/issue and showing true compassion for their situations.
I joined the YMCA which she wanted to do for over a year.
I am having phone conversations out in the open….used to leave the room.
I am more positive and upbeat in general.
I am consciously trying to avoid negative statements.
I am listening to music more.
I am watching much less TV.
I am paying her compliments about her appearance (not too frequently).
I am occasionally telling her I admire her strength for how she is dealing with this sitch while working so many hours at her stressful job.
I am complimenting the improvements she is making in her running.
I am asking frequent questions about the people in her life that are dealing with physical ailments.
I am acting “As If” as much as possible.
I am going out with friends as much as possible
There are more……..
second, if you are so sure she's riddled with guilt and that she regrets her choice, why doesn't she say she changed her mind or wants to give it another go?
Is it really just stubborn pride that keeps her on track for leaving,
**I think she is being stubborn to try to prove her strength and independence.
or
Does she think you are making it so much about her being "wrong",
that it would be impossible for someone with a shred of self respect, to come crawling home?
**I don't dwell on her being wrong. At least I don't think I do. I am not shy about telling her that I don't agree with her decision. Maybe I should be. I know she knows I don't want the D. I am not going to tell her again. I do think that she has taken such a hard stance on this and so many people know about it that it would be difficult for her to pull back. I think she thinks she would look weak. I think this is a big issue.
I'm just asking but yes, i do get pick up a lot of judgement in your tone here. I know you are angry, but own that. It's okay to be angry.
** I do think I'm judging. I don't think the punishment matches the crime. She is not herself. She told me tonight that she is "being forced to be someone she is not right now". My response was "why is that" and she asked me to stop and I did. What will she feel when she returns to herself? She is going to hate herself. She is going to hate what she has done. I absolutely and unequivically believe that. She is hurting a lot of people including our sons.
Don't feign concern if it's just anger. Though showing her the anger is a bad idea, it's understandable if you feel it. Just vent here, and not on her.
**I appreciate this. I try to control may anger as much as possible. I slipped a little tonight. I need to be strong enough to take some time when my anger starts to mount. Nothing good comes from the alternative. It only validates her jaded views.
Denying the anger doesn't teach you how to cope with it.
Did you ask her best friend about her "keeping things inside" b/c you were simply probing for more info? Like what?
I can honestly say that my only concerns were for my wife. She is an emotional mess. I am concerned about her. She is not equipped to deal with what she is experiencing. I just wanted to make sure she was venting to someone.
This has not been a good night. I rcvd a note from my atty about the procedural thing from earlier in the week. My W decided to get her atty involved. It prob cost us about $750 that didn’t need to be spent. My W told me I can’t control her and that she decided to get follow her atty’s advice because she "trusts" her. This is going to get expensive.
I, like everyone, despise attorneys (no offense, some of my best friends fit the label). I hate the thought of paying them for nonsense. I fear my W may be getting sucked in to dependency on her atty. I approached her and shouldn’t have. I need to learn to take time to cool down. I didn’t raise my voice but did say things I regret. I almost immediately sent her a text apologizing for regressing into my old “tone” when I was talking to her. I told her I am trying to kill that part of me but sometimes regress. It is not who I am or who I want to be. No meaningful response from her.
I was supposed to go out tonight and did for awhile. I really didn’t have anywhere to go. I came home and entered my room through the back door and had zero intention of letting her know I was here. I want to give her space. She opened the door and saw me sitting in bed and it scared the bejesus out of her. She was irritated.
We are going to sit down and talk about the D next week. Division of assets, living arrangements, custody, etc. I hate to think about it but know it is a big issue for her. I have been fighting letting her have the kids overnight away from home but now realize that riding this D out in the same house is a pipe dream. My kids are going to feel pain and all I can do is minimize it as much as possible.
I have been holding onto hope that my W would have an epiphany but now know it’s not going to happen.
She told me tonight that she hopes we can one day be friends but right now she is being forced to be someone she is not. I asked her "why is that" and she asked me to stop. I did. My God. How can you go through something like this realizing you are not being yourself? What happens when your “self” returns? Further strengthens my belief that she will one day feel unbelievable remorse for what is happening.
My poor boys. They are going to see their mother move out of our home. They are going to be subjected to over a decade of shuffling between homes and dealing with new love interests and spouses to their parents. Why? Because their Mother can’t accept the changes their Father is making are genuine in this moment. She is “someone else” and can’t trust it. What a frickin tragedy.
RO,
you are a bit all over the place.That means you are not behaving with consistency which is key to her trusting your changes. Not you talking about them but by being the changes.
You'll say you feel empapthy for her one minute and you're angry the next.
You also forgot how you got here. Of course your w doesn't trust the changes b/c you only made them after she said she wanted a divorce.
she was lonely for a long time inside this marriage. Her needs went unmet for a long time and now you want to put all this on her and how wrong she is...
Most of your changes are vague character claims like "being more patient" but in truth when it gets tough (here) you lack that trait.
Whereas Volunteering at the hospital is a good specific GAL.
Since I'm a L I have to say I'd suggest your w see one to get clarity and you are not the neutral party she needs info from. Nor do I think she's "dependent" on her L but you also said you hoped she was talking to someone. Well which is it, you want her to talk to someone or you want to control who that is?
The L won't be your worst enemy b/c she'll tell your w what to expect financially and if it's as grim a picture as you paint I'm sure she is torn.
But that is not necessarily guilt.
Back off, be kind.
Work on your real issues which are the piece of this puzzle you own.
Stop all this obessing about her under the guise of concern.
Even if it's real it isn't in your control.
and it reeks of control...again, back off big time. Be there for your sons. Do YOUR work and only yours.
Let some good memories resurface in her and create some for your boys. Don't argue with her anymore...it's just forcing her to defend those choices over and over and you are cornering her.
Plus you didn't answer my earlier question which is telling.
How hard are you making this for her?
I am rereading a lot of my old posts. i think I am getting more emotional now because I am starting to realize that its really over. What lies ahead........I look forward to it.
see, this post ^^^ to me is contradictory...remember
consistent change + sufficient time = change she can trust
you are hurting but you have to stay the course...you can do this.
How hard are you making this for her? [/quote]
My instincts tell me to make it hard. Not to get too deep into the Mommy Issues, but my mother was the queen of the guilt trip. I remember the ploys during the divorce and even when I was taking a job thousands of miles away from home after college.
WOW...just had an awakening. I'm pursuing the same strategies.
I try to guilt my wife into reevaluating things. i know my Mom always came out on the losing end of her guilt strategy.
Ok...time to think.
RO,
you are a bit all over the place.That means you are not behaving with consistency which is key to her trusting your changes. Not you talking about them but by being the changes.
**My emotions still have an affect on me and it affects my actions. not good. I feel I have lost a golden opportunity to change and allow my W to see those changes. She is going to move out and therfore will not be able to see them. I know there are other ways, but not as good as day to day interactions. Maybe it will help. Maybe space will help her heal. I know I control myself only but if I change and she doesnt see it because she isn't here, how will she come back? My hope is fading. I need to be the best I can be regardless.
You'll say you feel empapthy for her one minute and you're angry the next.
**I empathize with her pain. I also feel she is making a poor decision and that decision is going to cause immense pain, financial hardship and problems for all of us. That does make me angry and frustrated.
You also forgot how you got here. Of course your w doesn't trust the changes b/c you only made them after she said she wanted a divorce.
she was lonely for a long time inside this marriage. Her needs went unmet for a long time and now you want to put all this on her and how wrong she is...
**I have tried to articulate to her that I know my inability to express my love for her had driven her to where she is. Again, I don't feel her decision to D and not even consider alternatives are good for anyone including her. I do need to reduce her guilt. I guess I don't know how to do that on this issue. it is her decision.
Most of your changes are vague character claims like "being more patient" but in truth when it gets tough (here) you lack that trait.
**Absolutely. I need to walk the walk more. Talk is cheap.
Whereas Volunteering at the hospital is a good specific GAL.
Since I'm a L I have to say I'd suggest your w see one to get clarity and you are not the neutral party she needs info from. Nor do I think she's "dependent" on her L but you also said you hoped she was talking to someone. Well which is it, you want her to talk to someone or you want to control who that is?
**Just want to make sure she was confiding in someone to help her cope. Preferably someone not charging $300/hr.
The L won't be your worst enemy b/c she'll tell your w what to expect financially and if it's as grim a picture as you paint I'm sure she is torn.
But that is not necessarily guilt.
Back off, be kind.
**I will try. We did make the commitment to not speak of the D in the house anymore. Trying to keep it away from the kids as much as possible. I think this will help alleviate the tension. We were getting along pretty well before the details of the d started creeping into conversations more frequently.
Work on your real issues which are the piece of this puzzle you own.
Stop all this obessing about her under the guise of concern.
Even if it's real it isn't in your control.
**Very true.
and it reeks of control...again, back off big time. Be there for your sons. Do YOUR work and only yours.
Let some good memories resurface in her and create some for your boys. Don't argue with her anymore...it's just forcing her to defend those choices over and over and you are cornering her.
Plus you didn't answer my earlier question which is telling.
How hard are you making this for her?
I have been too focused on hoping the negatives of this situation will get her to reconsider her decision as they start to become apparent to her.
My not doing everything I possibly can to improve myself make it more unlikely she will come back. It is so easy to say but difficult to do....I NEED to control the controllables.
Just to shed a little perspective on who my wife was and who I know she truly is.....
I am watching "Say Anything". She was very similar to Dianne Corde (sp?), the lead character. Salt of the earth, genuinely nice to the core.
If you are familiar with the movie and character, can you picture her so filled with hate and anger? She is so full of pain.
No real point here...just trying to give you all some perspective on how out of character my W is at the moment.
She has the kids today. She is taking them to my Mother's place...that will be interesting. I am going to have a lot of "me" time. Going to try to make the most of it. A good workout and a lot of football!!!! Probably going camping with my Brother later.
W just came into my room as I'm typing this. She is very emotional. Asked me to help brainstorm about ideas to find resolutions to our seperation. I told her I would do that.
I'm afraid to here the answers to this....I am naive on the topic.
Is it customary for seperated people to date.....have sex with other people before a D is finalized? I know it happens...not that stupid.
Just seems to be the ultimate insult to me. I know we are splitting but still feel a commitment to fulfill the vows we took until they are officially gone. I also know that my W having sex wtih someone else would push our sitch beyond the point of reconciliation. Hope would be lost at that point. Maybe I'm just afraid of the finality of it? I plan to honor our vows until the end, is it out of line to expect the same from her?
RO,
The separation is an emotional phase for both of you. If you want - Check out my 1st page of my Too Tired To Fight Thread.
To sum it up, my separation was probably one of the most loving moments in my marriage with my w. There were alot of tears. There were times when we were separating stuff, and she just lost it. There were times when I did. We did our best to be there for each other. We validated each others feelings and pushed our selfishness aside. It was the strongest we had ever been.
It still didn't stop her from walking out the door. It still didn't stop her from wanting a D. I'm glad I didn't know what the outcome was going to be, because I'm not sure I would have been strong enough to do what I did.. but I know this. I DBed my A$$ off and my w noticed. But the other half of the equation is.. what they do with the new info? That is out of our hands.
My point being is that people are going to give alot of feedback on this process. Some will say - It's her decision, let her figure it out. Other like me - will say - be there if she is emotional.
At the end of the day, look at this as an opportunity. An opportunity to push yourself to grow and show the best RO possible. If in the end you can say "I am proud of how I handled that, I have no regrets" you did great. No matter the outcome. Only you can decide who that RO looks like.
As far as the dating when separated... here's the deal. Nothing is normal or customary. There are no "how to" books on how to EXACTLY handle this because every situation is different. There are a ton of similarities, but there are always variables.
If you can - Stop having expectations of your w. She's not the w you married (I assume) right now. I couldn't believe some of the sh!t my w was doing. Stuff we agreed upon, stuff we both believed in.. all gone. There were alot of WTF moments in the beginning and even still. Having no expectations can help limit the pain and detach a bit. It's not easy stuff, but it helps.
Only you can decide if her having sex with someone would push you sitch beyond reconciliation. I'm not sure if I posted it here or somewhere else so forgive me. You are limiting yourself, your w, and God in that statement. If you can't forgive (and some people can't) own up to your part of it.. but realize it's YOU saying the relationship can't be saved if that happens. You are saying your heart can't be changed.
I'm not supporting your w decisions, infidelity, or dismissing your feelings. Man I still fume when I think of my w dating and having sex with others. But I also know that my anger only destroys me. It stops me from forgiving her. It stops God from changing my heart. What she's doing affects me.. but I was letting it define me. Does that make sense?
Sorry for the long rant. You're doing good. The challenges are getting harder, but keep it up. You can do this! Be the man only a fool would leave!
RO,
The separation is an emotional phase for both of you. If you want - Check out my 1st page of my Too Tired To Fight Thread.
To sum it up, my separation was probably one of the most loving moments in my marriage with my w. There were alot of tears. There were times when we were separating stuff, and she just lost it. There were times when I did. We did our best to be there for each other. We validated each others feelings and pushed our selfishness aside. It was the strongest we had ever been.
It still didn't stop her from walking out the door. It still didn't stop her from wanting a D. I'm glad I didn't know what the outcome was going to be, because I'm not sure I would have been strong enough to do what I did.. but I know this. I DBed my A$$ off and my w noticed. But the other half of the equation is.. what they do with the new info? That is out of our hands.
My point being is that people are going to give alot of feedback on this process. Some will say - It's her decision, let her figure it out. Other like me - will say - be there if she is emotional.
At the end of the day, look at this as an opportunity. An opportunity to push yourself to grow and show the best RO possible. If in the end you can say "I am proud of how I handled that, I have no regrets" you did great. No matter the outcome. Only you can decide who that RO looks like.
As far as the dating when separated... here's the deal. Nothing is normal or customary. There are no "how to" books on how to EXACTLY handle this because every situation is different. There are a ton of similarities, but there are always variables.
If you can - Stop having expectations of your w. She's not the w you married (I assume) right now. I couldn't believe some of the sh!t my w was doing. Stuff we agreed upon, stuff we both believed in.. all gone. There were alot of WTF moments in the beginning and even still. Having no expectations can help limit the pain and detach a bit. It's not easy stuff, but it helps.
**I have become a lot better at not expecting anything from her other than her attempts to perpetuate the anger. I still have a long way to go though. I know who she is and this person that she has become is difficult to stomach.
Only you can decide if her having sex with someone would push you sitch beyond reconciliation. I'm not sure if I posted it here or somewhere else so forgive me. You are limiting yourself, your w, and God in that statement. If you can't forgive (and some people can't) own up to your part of it.. but realize it's YOU saying the relationship can't be saved if that happens. You are saying your heart can't be changed.
**It would and she knows it. It may sound like a hard stance and it is. I know every spouse holds fidelity in high regard. It is a particularly big issue for me. On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd rate it about a 12. I am actually somewhat concerned that she may do it just to spite me. To really drive me away. I also know I can't control it so I try not to think about it.
I'm not supporting your w decisions, infidelity, or dismissing your feelings. Man I still fume when I think of my w dating and having sex with others. But I also know that my anger only destroys me. It stops me from forgiving her. It stops God from changing my heart. What she's doing affects me.. but I was letting it define me. Does that make sense?
**It does make sense. I am new to the whole concept of forgiveness. It's one of the reasons I've had issue with myself for so long. I am trying to not let anything she does define me any longer. It is a hard transition/transformation.
Sorry for the long rant. You're doing good. The challenges are getting harder, but keep it up. You can do this! Be the man only a fool would leave!
Val, thank you for your words of encouragement. I am alone in the house today. I am trying to process things. My thoughts are becoming clearer so that helps. I realize more and more each day that my ability to control is limited to myself. My W is gone. I need to really accept that.
I don’t think she intends to sleep with anyone…at least at the moment. I think she is trying to accomplish 2 things by even bringing it up. First, she wants to be absolutely free of me and my expectations of our fidelity are a means of me controlling her. She seems to have little regard for our vows because she feels our M is over now. Secondly, she knows it is a hot button for me and she is trying to fuel her fire. She brought it up at the end of a cordial conversation we were having….she can't end on a positive. I took it a lot better than I thought I would but not as well as I would have liked.
My next response is going to be something like this, “Out of respect for you, our family and our vows, I plan to not have a physical relationship with another woman until our D is finalized. You are free to do what you need to do to make yourself happy”.
i dont know when your next conversation is going to be with her, but i would hold off on that statement till you get some feed back from a few other further along people here.
to me, and this is just my opinion, it sounds like you are still trying to control what she might do with some guilt, and a little bit of talking down to her with that statement.
'i feel that i will not be ready to move on with anyone else until the divorce is final.' or something better worded like that. no you statements, just I.
i dont know when your next conversation is going to be with her, but i would hold off on that statement till you get some feed back from a few other further along people here.
to me, and this is just my opinion, it sounds like you are still trying to control what she might do with some guilt, and a little bit of talking down to her with that statement.
'i feel that i will not be ready to move on with anyone else until the divorce is final.' or something better worded like that. no you statements, just I.
**great points, thanks
well said pls.
I agree. That statement is saying you respect those things, but if she dates.. she doesn't. And although that might be true.. what did you accomplish. Nothing other than shoving your beliefs down her throat.
If you don't plan on dating.. just don't do it. Standing up for what you believe in is an action, not words. If she does bring it up. You can just say "No I don't plan on it" and leave it simple.
She's is trying to fuel her fire. She is doing it so if/when does do date, she is justified in her actions. She is convincing herself that she has permission to fully experience her freedom.
What can ya do about her.. nothing. So don't try.
I have been too focused on hoping the negatives of this situation will get her to reconsider her decision as they start to become apparent to her.
My not doing everything I possibly can to improve myself make it more unlikely she will come back. It is so easy to say but difficult to do....I NEED to control the controllables.
read THIS^^^^ again and again...and let it sink in.
Where the head goes, the heart will follow...(eventually)
The harder you make it for her to come back...the harder it will be!
Figure this no brainer out. Stop trying to guilt/punish her. If you want her back then you have to
KEEP THE ROAD HOME PAVED AND SMOOTH...she's a mom. She will always have guilt about her kids. She doesn't need You to remind her of it more plus it hurts your cause.
it's an example of you putting your anger and desire to "show her a thing or two" taking priority over your desire to reconcile....for God's sake see this and change it before it's too late.
And day to day contact does NOT always make it easier to see changes. Just the opposite.
Plus it's much much harder TO MAKE the changes when the WAS is always around.
Use this gift of time to work on yourself and make the changes so obvoius that when you do have contact
which you will have
it'll be obvious and demonstrable. Same with phone conversations AND with getting her to wonder about what you are doing with your free time
all things that won't happen with you staring at her all the time...and getting in her face b/c your record so far of being able to back off....is lousy.
Have you truly read the Div Remedy book to the end? Please do so b/c some of this is amptly covered in it. It'll reinforce your plan of action, which is to work on yourself ONLY.
I'm afraid to here the answers to this....I am naive on the topic.
Is it customary for seperated people to date.....have sex with other people before a D is finalized? I know it happens...not that stupid.
Just seems to be the ultimate insult to me. I know we are splitting but still feel a commitment to fulfill the vows we took until they are officially gone. I also know that my W having sex wtih someone else would push our sitch beyond the point of reconciliation. Hope would be lost at that point. Maybe I'm just afraid of the finality of it? I plan to honor our vows until the end, is it out of line to expect the same from her?
No matter how many rules YOU set down for HER...she can and will do what she wants. You need to get that.
ACCEPT REALITY...
If anything, she's more likely to do it b/c you told her she can't...
RO, some of this stuff surprises me. Like you are doing what you know is the opposite of DBing...
why?
You can tell her that You will honor your vows as long as you are married and leave it at that. (And don't make that promise if you can't keep it.)
Something tells me you will want to be with someone so badly that you will break this promise--or sure want to. Since she has been lonely in the m, maybe that will assist you in understanding her past pain.
In her mind, perhaps, you broke the vow to honor and cherish her.
But that's the past. So focus on what you feel you can say or promise and keep the promise.
Or better yet, say nothing and let her wonder.
Or let her come up with your "sep guidelines" if she wants...and only if she wants to.
Can you do that? Can you surrender the illusion of control you want so much?
that'd be a true 180
I have been too focused on hoping the negatives of this situation will get her to reconsider her decision as they start to become apparent to her.
My not doing everything I possibly can to improve myself make it more unlikely she will come back. It is so easy to say but difficult to do....I NEED to control the controllables.
read THIS^^^^ again and again...and let it sink in.
Where the head goes, the heart will follow...(eventually)
The harder you make it for her to come back...the harder it will be!
Figure this no brainer out. Stop trying to guilt/punish her. If you want her back then you have to
**I know. I need to learn silence and validation. She insults or misinterprets something I have said or done and my defenses come up. I need to not be affected by her venom. She feels enough pain. My being associated with it is unproductive.
Most of our more intense conversations are regarding the dissolution of our assets. I have been poor and don’t want to go back. I made the personal sacrifice (joint decision with W) to leave a career to move our family home and she is kicking me to the curb with no job in the worst economy since the Depression. Should we stay together because of it? No, but man do I feel like I am absolutely getting shafted here. I am scared about my financial future. I’ve never been scared of anything. I am working getting a job but I don’t have control over it. My confidence in a rut right now for the first time in my life as well. It is getting better. I am feeling better about myself. Feeling sorry for myself does no good and I understand that but these are scary times.
Adding to my tension is that it’s being done unnecessarily IMHO. I know she is entitled to her opinion…obviously. She is not herself….hell, she told me that. Every time we broach the subject, she wants to talk about her legal rights. I mention mine (child support, spousal support, etc) and she gets defensive and agitated. I don’t know of a way to tiptoe around this conversation. I am trying to figure it out.
KEEP THE ROAD HOME PAVED AND SMOOTH...she's a mom. She will always have guilt about her kids. She doesn't need You to remind her of it more plus it hurts your cause.
it's an example of you putting your anger and desire to "show her a thing or two" taking priority over your desire to reconcile....for God's sake see this and change it before it's too late.
And day to day contact does NOT always make it easier to see changes. Just the opposite.
Plus it's much much harder TO MAKE the changes when the WAS is always around.
Use this gift of time to work on yourself and make the changes so obvoius that when you do have contact
which you will have
it'll be obvious and demonstrable. Same with phone conversations AND with getting her to wonder about what you are doing with your free time
all things that won't happen with you staring at her all the time...and getting in her face b/c your record so far of being able to back off....is lousy.
** You make a lot of sense MLC. I greatly respect your perspective on this and appreciate the guidance. I'm sorry I haven't done the best job at following it. I am getting better.
Have you truly read the Div Remedy book to the end? Please do so b/c some of this is amptly covered in it. It'll reinforce your plan of action, which is to work on yourself ONLY.
** I have read it but am in need of a refresher. Understanding and putting into action are two very different things. I need to calm down and be more deliberate in my thgouht regarding my W.
I'm afraid to here the answers to this....I am naive on the topic.
Is it customary for seperated people to date.....have sex with other people before a D is finalized? I know it happens...not that stupid.
Just seems to be the ultimate insult to me. I know we are splitting but still feel a commitment to fulfill the vows we took until they are officially gone. I also know that my W having sex wtih someone else would push our sitch beyond the point of reconciliation. Hope would be lost at that point. Maybe I'm just afraid of the finality of it? I plan to honor our vows until the end, is it out of line to expect the same from her?
No matter how many rules YOU set down for HER...she can and will do what she wants. You need to get that.
ACCEPT REALITY...
If anything, she's more likely to do it b/c you told her she can't...
**absolutely....the first thing my DB coach told me was that i'm dealing with a 16 yr old girl and I'm her Dad.
RO, some of this stuff surprises me. Like you are doing what you know is the opposite of DBing...
why?**This all started when I suspected she was having a PA about a month ago. She wasn't. I was at the point where I was finally standing up and letting her know that I was done being a doormat and that I do not deserve to be disrespected. A PA is the ultimate disrespect from my W in my opinion. Doesn't make it right, but it was an extremely emotional time and we both "agreed" to not engage in PA's until the D was done. She backed off that promise this am. Just to get me worked up I think and I didn't respond very much.
You can tell her that You will honor your vows as long as you are married and leave it at that. (And don't make that promise if you can't keep it.)
Something tells me you will want to be with someone so badly that you will break this promise--or sure want to. Since she has been lonely in the m, maybe that will assist you in understanding her past pain.
**I am certainly not going to lie, I have thought about it. I am a very physical guy and my W and I always had an outstanding sex life. She flat out told me that she knows I have needs and to go date and I was free to have sex with other women. I see it as a trap. My taking advantage of it would give her validation for what she's doing. I did thank her for the offer though.
In her mind, perhaps, you broke the vow to honor and cherish her.
**Great point. I did, though not intentionally I feel.
But that's the past. So focus on what you feel you can say or promise and keep the promise.
Or better yet, say nothing and let her wonder.
Or let her come up with your "sep guidelines" if she wants...and only if she wants to.
**She wants no such guidelines....she's "done".
Can you do that? Can you surrender the illusion of control you want so much?
I struggle with seeing myself as an over the top “control” guy. I do certainly have hot button issues though…doesn’t everyone? My W is, or was, so nice she never spoke her mind about most things. I’d ask “where do you want to go to Dinner” and she would defer to me or list 5 possibilities. We bought our first house and she didn’t even want to see it first. She looked at the pictures and said “We have the same taste, I trust you”. She found our last house on the internet and we bought that without her seeing it too. We own 40 acres of land and plans for a house….during the design phase, her most common response or input was “you know me, I’m easy to please”. WTH?
I definitely am more of a decision maker and I am definitely more of a type A personality but man if it’s an issue can you say something? We now live in a house “she didn’t want”, we have assets she “really didn’t want to buy”. I wish I could turn the clock back and either listen better or probe for her input more, I would. I can understand how the accumulation of this situation has boiled into her feeling that I am a domineering control freak.
I don't want to control my W. I want a partner.
that'd be a true 180
Thinking of getting a puppy.
An empty house gets old quick.
Left behind minds think alike.. I've been thinking of getting another tattoo.... and a puppy.
I've been thinking of getting a puppy tattoo. Or a tattooed puppy ..
I kid. But S7 has been asking for a puppy.
puppies are great, especially since they love and stick around unconditionally...and kids get distracted by them too, and not so aware of a missing parent.
Tattoos? I have objections to them after being a L for a burn unit. Seems...harmful to perfect skin, super hard to remove well, and just too permanent to me?
(Also reeks of cliched MLC behavior, but maybe I'm a tad sensitive there...)
why not use henna for a temporary thing? Just a thought.
the tattooed puppy has the advantage of being original...here on DB, we like to thing we LBSers are above MLC cliches...
(but we are allowed!)
Tattoos? I have objections to them after being a L for a burn unit. Seems...harmful to perfect skin, super hard to remove well, and just too permanent to me?
(Also reeks of cliched MLC behavior, but maybe I'm a tad sensitive there...)
why not use henna for a temporary thing? Just a thought.
Interesting 25. I was thinking of getting a tattoo myself. I've always wanted a chakram (Xena's round killing thing) on my neck but feared scarring and my wife's disapproval. Guess I should wait on it now huh?
or get the tattooed puppy...
or get a puppy... with a tattoo of a puppy...
or it's master...
One other thought....isn't this a bit of a game??? Putting a happy face on when you are miserable. Not talking when it's really what you want to do. Not asking my W where she was last night even though it eats away at me. No longer challenging W on her EA even though it has consumed my thoughts for 8 months....
I get and appreciate the process on it's merits. I have bought into it or else I wouldn't be here. I just wonder if it can be tailored to fit individual situations in a more expeditious manner........maybe it can't.
I need to let my W wear her BGP's.
It can definitely FEEL like a game, when what you need to do is act counter to the way you always act, or want to do. What you are really doing is TRAINING yourself.
When I was training to run, the last thing I wanted to do was run. The very last thing. But if I want to be a runner, I have to actually run.
Eventually, it will come naturally.
Very good perspective. Thank you.
I had a great couple of days with the kids. We went camping again and out on my Brother’s boat. I played on the beach quite a bit with the kids and they played with some other kids they met there. There were a couple of times that I thought of what a shame it was that my W wasn’t there but didn’t dwell on it. I met a few new people and more importantly, I opened up and was much more personable with some of my brother’s friends. Met an attractive single woman that I knew was “in to me”. That made me feel good. Confidence is building.
Not a lot of contact with W until today. She sent a text yesterday asking if I could bring the kids home this morning so she could spend time with them, I was supposed to have them all day. She had been working for 2 days getting caught up so I said sure. We actually got along ok this morning. Had a little chit chat and both interacted with kids a little…until of course she had to try to create a conflict. I am now surprised when she doesn’t do this. I handled it pretty well. She left for movies with the kids.
She started zinging me texts fast and furious. I’m ignoring her needs, not respecting her, not fair to me…..etc. Unbelievable (well not really anymore). She says she wants to focus on the kids when she’s with them and she’s the one trying to start a text war. Must be because she didn’t get me fired up face to face.
I ended it by telling to enjoy her time with the boys.
We are supposedly meeting Weds night to have “the talk”. Now that should be interesting. I need to really keep my cool. I know she will not. We are planning to go somewhere public to discuss it. I think it’s a good idea since it may help keep emotions in check.
Well, I officially don’t think I want this anymore. W just told me to expect some court filings. She told her atty she feels “threatened” by me, etc. Filing to basically force what we supposed to talk about tomorrow night.
Very insulting. I would never hurt my W. I now have to defend that in court. Tough to DB out of this one.
I called her Dad to let him know that he has no need to feel concerned about his daughter and that I have nothing but the best interest of my kids in mind.
Again raw emotions here...
ro,
sorry she resorted to this. It's not an unusual tactic so please know that courts have seen it before.
You DO have a lawyer, right? If not, you'll be in trouble so don't be penny wise and pound foolish by not having one.
Simply take the high road. RO, if you are SURE you have given her no reason
to fear you, then
tell her you are disappointed she'd stoop to this (or she needs psychiatric care).
And hold your head high. Don't dignify it too much with a lot of debate but be clear about your denial. And call your L asap.
I definitely wouldn't meet her to have a talk with her especially when she says that she feels "threatened" by you. Tell her you don't appreciate her accusations and would feel uncomfortable about meeting her based on that.
If you still insist on going, then be sure you have someone there as a witness. Someone who is on your side. If she starts ranting about that, you can gently remind her that you are just looking after your interests for now because of her accusations.
You have to start protecting yourself.
Oh and stop giving in to what she wants. She missed out on seeing the kids, tough. She chose to live like this. Not you.
My W did the same thing before. There was a night I went out and had my parents watch my kids. My W ranted about it and before she got too far along in it, I stopped her and told her that the kids were on my time and I had the right to have them be watched by whomever I chose on my time. That slapped a little bit of reality back into her.
ro,
sorry she resorted to this. It's not an unusual tactic so please know that courts have seen it before.
You DO have a lawyer, right? If not, you'll be in trouble so don't be penny wise and pound foolish by not having one.
**I do have one....preferred to not have to talk to her and now have no choice.
Simply take the high road. RO, if you are SURE you have given her no reason
to fear you, then
tell her you are disappointed she'd stoop to this (or she needs psychiatric care).
**I've done that. She might need help.
And hold your head high. Don't dignify it too much with a lot of debate but be clear about your denial. And call your L asap.
I will. Thank you.
MLC...just a few more little tidbits. She says she wants to "keep the lawyers out of this". She has filed two things in the last week. Her bill thus far is prob North of $5000, mine is $630.
It is insulting the way she acts. We were talking today. I stood up (normally) to go look out the window in the living room and she took a step back and cowered a little like Jack the Ripper just jumped out from behind a dumpster (a little exaggeration here).
I am no longer trying to help her. It is so sad it's come to this. No more leaving the house to "give her space". No more sitting in my room for the same purpose. I'm not trying to be ugly but I'm done going out of my way.
She has made me a frickin monster in her head.
Time to start recording conversations.
It seems I have failed at one aspect of DBing....saving my marriage. I do feel better about myself which ultimately is more important.
Just venting...I feel my life on this site may be coming to an end as a result of this nosedive.
W just came into the living room and tried to talk reason with me. "Why don't we just go tomorrow night and figure this out?" "I'm sick of the fighting". I told her it was equivalent to punching a guy in the face in the bar and asking him to sit down and talk it out.
I'm considering giving the W a link to my threads.
How's that for a new "Last Resort Technique"???
don't do it the publicizing of your thread. It's not as helpful to you as you believe, for one.
ASSUMING SHE FILED FOR A PROTECTIVE ORDER AGAINST YOU as opposed to a standard cooling off of 10 days motion....(SO, understand that this note is premised on that Protective Order assumption, okay?)
IF So, IMO, you'd be a fool to go anywhere with her without an adult witness, OR only meet in public places. AND OR Tape the meetings if you like and do it openly so she knows how seriously you take this and how far over the line she has gone.
IMO
She needs to retract that motion and frickin' apologize OR there's nothing to talk "in private" about.
Worse, IF she is starting to believe it herself then nothing you "agree to" will be worth the paper it's not written on anyhow.
You worry about the costs but Paying $10k for lawyers in the next few months will save you a lot of heartache in the long run, and probably save you money too,
when compared to facing domestic abuse charges, losing a job b/c of that, or being found not guilty, but always having to answer on every job application you fill out, that you were once charged with that. It's a big pain in the butt.
I had a physician client whose batchit crazy teenager d went thru a terrible spell. SHE alleged my client had abused her when he restrained her from hitting her mother, who was disabled with a brain tumor. I kid you not.
The brilliant and insightful (and professionally envious) social worker, without the benefit of a judge or lawyer or witness, found the claim "substantiated" but no charges were filed b/c when a real lawyer at the district attorney's office saw it, he said "no way is there sufficient evidence...what were you thinking?"
So the charges went nowhere but the finding of "substantiated" by a social worker, stuck to him like dog poop.
The next year when the doctor and his family relocated, he was NOT granted privileges at the hospital that had hired him, nor was he able to get a medical license for over 7 months...unemployed waitiing...and flying back to the one state his license was still secure in, 2300 miles away.
All b/c of the "domestic abuse" charge that wasn't actually a charge. Also could not get a hunting license as he was no longer allowed to own a gun in the new state...had to hire a lawyer in the new state to appeal that, and spent close to $50k trying to undo a non conviction!
This crap can haunt you. Don't skimp on the "legal insurance" costs your wife just hiked up.
YES RO, I am a L so you can say "oh, 25 is biased..." but the thing is, I am actually well informed and justly paranoid.
I don't believe this WILL happen to you, but I'm telling you it CAN happen to you. Protect yourself. Your wife's request to settle it privately after filing such a motion means she's either planning an ambush or is clueless about what she has done. I suspect the latter. If you can tell her without anger but with the type of concern you'd have if the biopsy results were still pending...then tell her what the consequences of this can be...what was the goal of that motion? (Boy, I'd make it clear she did not reach that goal, OR if there is some validity to her fears, then take it in and admit it and see how you are perceived...)
If she filed for a PO, she's lost the right to ask for a "sit down" talk. You cannot afford that anymore. You value your freedom too much. She crossed the line.
Maybe you two can work things out but without a HUGE recognition of what she has done, and how much more it will cost both of you now, how? And
what's the point of pretending it's all cool? Don't enable.
I have to figure out a DB answer for the rest of your sitch but as a L I say again, protect yourself. It's also a way of protecting the kids too.
Sorry RO.
A protective order is standard cut throat lawyer tactic (sorry to my lawyer friends)
But it is employed to fight for custody and as a strong arm tactic in negotiating out the details. Also to get you out the marital home if you are still there.
Dirty? Yes.
Stay away from her. Stay away from where she lives, works and breaths.
And get a lawyer.
I'm so sorry RO that she has resorted to this. She must be very angry and very guilty.
Listen to the folks above. Put all your focus on protecting you and allow her to feel the consequences of her actions.
((( )))
A protective order is standard cut throat lawyer tactic (sorry to my lawyer friends)
well, if you're clear it is only "cut throat" L's then maybe...but don't forget folks, "SHE TOLD HER ATTY" she fears RO...that's actually more frightening...
b/c she actually may believe it. RO you have to dig deep to see if there is ANY reason you physically intimidate her (without admitting)...(SIGH)
But it is employed to fight for custody and as a strong arm tactic in negotiating out the details. Also to get you out the marital home if you are still there.
Dirty? Yes.
Stay away from her. Stay away from where she lives, works and breaths.
And get a lawyer.
so RO, how's that getting a L plan going? We'll count it as a GAL thing if you want.
I already had an atty. Going to see her on Fri. I rcvd the court order. What she asked for wasn't bad. Wants to commit to schedule for kids and free up assets for another temporary home. the character assisination it included was the ridiculous part. Actually no, the ridiculous part is that a few days ago we had set a time for tonight to discuss all of these things and she asked her atty to file this thing yesterday afternoon. WTF?????
She is so damn naive.
All part of the craziness. My W was the same way. Same treatment everything. Now she's almost back to normal.