Journaling...
Have spent some time today processing my feelings pertaining to where my W is emotionally right now.
I was thinking about how much she once loved me. How she would have done ANYTHING for me... how loyal and committed to me she was... how vulnerable that she was to things that I said to her or things that I did that disrespected her.... how much she turned the direction of her life over to me and the direction of my life ... in a sense, how innocent that my W was.
For her to leave me, it must have taken a tremendous amount of strength, courage, and resolve.... to start over... by herself. To accept that I would no longer be there for her and/or SS.
Her ultimate decision, and action on that decision, really had nothing to do with me in the end. It was all about her... her loneliness, her unhappiness, her fear of living a life of 'going through the motions' and without passion ... without excitement... without feeling wanted and loved.
To come to this decision and act on it it must have taken her months of preparing herself emotionally ... the direction that she took, that she headed must have had to progressively accelerate ... like a train heading down the tracks without brakes...
When I came here, it was with the goal of reversing the course of a speeding train... running down the track in the wrong direction ... without brakes... the baby steps that I have accomplished have been merely slow that train down ...
To fully reverse the course of that train will take more work and resolve on my part... I cannot expect, and should never have expected, that I would be able to accomplish this in a mere 5 1/2 months.
The goal... the mission ... that which I have undertaken for myself... to stand for my M ... in order to become a better person and husband ... was NOT an easy one ... I have chosen NOT to take the easy road ... I have chosen to walk through the gates of hell ...
for me
for my W
for my M
for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow...
which is to be happier, stronger ... healthier.
It will take more time and patience... more blood, sweat and tears.
but I'm not giving in.
Denver
^^^^^^^^
I needed to start this thread off by reviewing and remembering the words that I wrote a mere 10 days ago. This is not an easy time for me.
BITS
Denver
I read your post on my other thread Country. Thanks.
I thought I should also review and repost my goals from my last couple of thread.
Just as a reminder to myself.
1. OM does not matter. He wins if I let him. That means if I let his presence in my situation get to me, he wins. I cannot show W that I am bothered if she tells me that she has or is going to have contact with OM. I cannot control whether or not W chooses to have contact with him. I need to accept that. He wins ONLY IF I LET HIM.
2. Back off - Reduce amount of initiating contact with W. Don't always answer her phone calls immediately. Do always answer her text messages right away. Don't jump to hang out with her all of the time.
3. Continue to show W new me - Continue to listen and validate W. Continue to be attentive and loving. Without telling her that I love her. Continue to actually actively listen to what W talks about. Continue to be fun to be around... be in a good mood... don't be a downer... be available to W and SS, but not too available. If needed, fake it till I make it. Act AS IF.
4. Do not talk about OM. Do not bring it up. Ignore it. see #1. Under no circumstances talk negatively about OM. Do not put them on the same team. Do not put W in defensive posture about OM.
5. Do not talk about R unless W brings it up. And if she does, THEN do way more listening than talking. listen and validate, listen and validate.
6. Eliminate expectations. Don't be upset if W does not invite me to do things. do not be upset if she declines invites from me. If I do something nice for her, do it bc I want to, not bc I have an expectation of something or some reaction in return.
7. Do not be doormat - I am a doormat IF ... I do something that I do not want to do bc I believe W expects it or will be upset with me about if I don't do it. I am NOT a doormat if I CHOOSE to do or not do something bc it is what I WANT to do.
8. Lovingly detach to a degree - self protection mechanism. For numbers 1, 4 and 6. Focus, focus, focus. I cannot control my W, her decisions, her actions, thoughts or feelings. I control only me. BUT, I love my W without conditions... so accept what she does, feels and thinks with the knowledge that she is on her own journey. None of it can kill me... I will be okay regardless. AND, I do not have to stay in this unless I choose to. I have a parachute that I can use at any time.
9. Start to GAL again. My life cannot be all about my W and SS. GAL to make myself happy and to create some mystery about myself.
10. Be the better man. I am better than the OM... no question. But that is not what is most important. I must be better than the old me. Be focused on improving myself, how I react to things, how I live my life on a daily basis. Be happy.
11. Continue to create confusion in my W about her initial decision. When my W left, she was DONE. DBing has allowed me to get her to a point of confusion on that initial decision. This has, and continues to be, a good thing. I do this by continuing with my 180's and being the better man.
12. Be Patient. Patience is a virtue. I am learning it and it will be useful to me in the future regardless of how this turns out.
13. Time is still my friend. Even though I have been knocked down the mountain a bit, my W is still closer to reconciling than I ever thought that she would be back in November, December and January. I am still married and no paperwork has even been filed.
14. IF NEEDED - CLOSE THE GATES nicely and lovingly, and without being a martyr. I must continue being patient and giving this time. And I must take advantage of this time to show my W more of the new me... she has seen if for 3+ months. She needs to see more of it. BUT, the time may come when I need to take the new me away from her. When she must be forced to see what her life will be like without the NEW me... This conversation must be done nicely and with love. Merely that her indecision has gotten to the point that it is not fair to me, OM, or to SS. That I will now be taking myself out of the equation. That I will still be here if and when she decides that she wants to commit to me and M, but that I don't know for how long.
What a great post Denver. Truly.
What a great post Denver. Truly.
Thanks 25. The thoughts and words are there... with me... I'm trying to build my actions around them. Trying.
Something I am stealing from Truegritter...
"The longer we stay in our marriage the more people think we are a victim, a doormat, a martyr to the marriage. We may believe this too because we do not know who we are really. We have lost ourselves in our marriage and in self doubt because of the crisis in our life.
So we run away and confirm to ourselves that we are victims and confirm others' assessment of us. We run further away from the path to find ourselves. To know who we are. Because when we choose this, who we are is what others perceive us to be and when we believe THAT then we will always be beholden to others for our SELF. We will be defined by others, and live with self doubt, unless we understand otherwise.
We will not understand otherwise because it will happen again and again until we do.
Or
We walk further down the path. We detach. We understand that what our spouse is doing is not to us. It is because of their fears and insecurities. It is because, in part, the way we have behaved. It is because most of all what THEY feel inside.
We understand that we have no control over this.
We set boundaries to protect ourselves and our family.
We don’t fully understand why we are walking down this path. We still doubt why we are since we don’t understand why our spouse is still making these choices. And we think we will be validated for all the self doubt we still harbor if our spouse comes back. If we could get that to happen then we would be ok.
Time goes on. Our friends and others who have experienced this question why we are still doing this. Why would you want to be with someone who clearly doesn’t want to be with you?
It is their choice and not about you BUT why would you want to stay in this because it still is causing you pain?
Why is it still causing you pain? Because you STILL feel that your worth is dependent on your spouse.
And you are still a doormat.
What are we missing?
We all want to feel loved. We think about it, hope for it, fantasize about it, go to great lengths to achieve it, and feel that our lives are incomplete without it. The lack of unconditional love is the cause of most of our anger and confusion. It is no exaggeration to say that our emotional need for unconditional love is just as great as our physical need for air and food.
We learned that love was conditional, that we had to get it from the people around us with our words and behavior. And that is how we perceive it when it is given. We give when expect to get it.
Isn’t our marriage based on this? Isn’t this where it derailed? Isn’t this why we still feel we have to get our spouse back? Otherwise we ARE what we fear we are: UNLOVABLE.
How do we need to be loved?
At this point in your journey it is still about how you need to be treated (loved) and yourself worth and respect is still dependent on your spouse and others.
We may decide to leave at this point because of the long suffering we have endured at the hands of our spouse and predicament. If we leave now [AND IN THIS WAY] we confirm our ignorance of what love means and confirm that to our spouse that your love was not real but dependent and conditional.
You confirm again all the self loathing your spouse feels inside because the person that is supposed to love them hasn’t and won’t and never will. You also confirm this most importantantly in YOURSELF.
We then begin to understand…
We yearn for a deeper answer. We crave knowledge that has so far been unattainable.
We want to know the mystery of love. The mystery of our marriage. To know ourselves.
To remove self doubt. To know who we are at our core.
We start to focus on ourselves. To look inside and know who we are.
Find things we don’t like. Endeavor to change them. To learn what and who we aspire to be.
Not as someone our spouse wants us to be. We tried that already.
Who we really are.
When you do that you begin to understand why you are standing for your spouse and your marriage.
And you start to learn what real love is.
Unconditional love is caring about the happiness of another without any thought for what we might get for ourselves. It’s also when other people care about our happiness unconditionally.
And what it is not
It is not what we have lived in our life and our marriage up to now. It is not controlling. It does not desire and force. It does not depend on action or inaction from our spouse.
And so as we let this soak in and as it takes hold we discover an amazing thing and it gives life to us and breaths hope into our spirits and that is
Unconditional love is when we love despite the foolish choices of our spouse, when they fail to do what we desire, regardless of any choice they make. This love alone has the power to heal all wounds, deliver self respect and remove all doubt for you and your spouse. It allows love and healing to flourish.
This is how we need to be loved. And this is the paradox.
That we only get this when we give it.
And now is the opportunity.
There is no GREATER opportunity you will ever have in your life then NOW to express this kind of love.
To do this takes greater courage than most people will ever understand and will ever know.
And you have received this wonderful gift only by going through the experience. By the trial.
By the tragedy.
What greater thing could you aspire to do.
EVER."
BITS
Denver
[quote=Denver_2010]Journaling...
Have spent some time today processing my feelings pertaining to where my W is emotionally right now.
I was thinking about how much she once loved me. How she would have done ANYTHING for me... how loyal and committed to me she was... how vulnerable that she was to things that I said to her or things that I did that disrespected her.... how much she turned the direction of her life over to me and the direction of my life ... in a sense, how innocent that my W was.
For her to leave me, it must have taken a tremendous amount of strength, courage, and resolve.... to start over... by herself. To accept that I would no longer be there for her and/or SS.
Her ultimate decision, and action on that decision, really had nothing to do with me in the end. It was all about her... her loneliness, her unhappiness, her fear of living a life of 'going through the motions' and without passion ... without excitement... without feeling wanted and loved.
To come to this decision and act on it it must have taken her months of preparing herself emotionally ... the direction that she took, that she headed must have had to progressively accelerate ... like a train heading down the tracks without brakes...
When I came here, it was with the goal of reversing the course of a speeding train... running down the track in the wrong direction ... without brakes... the baby steps that I have accomplished have been merely slow that train down ...
To fully reverse the course of that train will take more work and resolve on my part... I cannot expect, and should never have expected, that I would be able to accomplish this in a mere 5 1/2 months.
The goal... the mission ... that which I have undertaken for myself... to stand for my M ... in order to become a better person and husband ... was NOT an easy one ... I have chosen NOT to take the easy road ... I have chosen to walk through the gates of hell ...
for me
for my W
for my M
for that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow...
which is to be happier, stronger ... healthier.
It will take more time and patience... more blood, sweat and tears.
but I'm not giving in.
Denver
I could have written this post myself.
Wow.
Great post
I could have written this post myself.
Wow.
Great post
Thank DG.
Hi Denver-
Just finished reading your thread and can very much relate to how hard it is to give a WAS space. My H left 9 months ago. Soon after he left he told me that what he needed from me was to 1) give him space and 2) be a safe person for him to talk to (meaning to not be judgmental, I guess). We were best friends, could talk for hours and enjoyed spending time together, so giving him the space he asked for seemed impossible to me.
It's been 7 months since either of us has uttered a single word about our relationship. I have backed off and let him do what he feels like he needs to do. There were times that I didn't talk to him for several weeks at a time. It has been hurtful, painful, difficult and most of all lonely but I know that I have done my best to give him what he has asked for. And believe it or not, in time I have gotten used to not seeing or talking to him as much. It's still not what my choice would have been, but I'm am proud of myself for doing it and think I will be a better wife (hopefully to him) in the future because of it. Right now we see each other about once a week. I don't know what the future holds, but I hope giving him this space will give our relationship another chance.
Don't know if this helps, but wanted to share.
Long Way to Go - That does help a lot. Thank you for sharing your story with me. W and I did go through this when we first separated. We barely spoke or saw each other from the time that she left our house in mid-November up til things started to get better in late January.
I've done it before, so I know that I can do it again. The part that has been more painful this time is that it seemed as if we were so close to reconciling. I see now that we were never quite as close as I thought or as close as W's words led me to believe.
The pain of being let down and knowing that the light at the end of the tunnel that I thought I saw, was only a mirage.
Thanks again. I really appreciate it.
BITS
Denver
Update...
No word from W today and I still have not made any effort to initiate contact since Thursday. The only contact that we have had is a voice message that W left me yesterday, and a text to her from me thanking her for warning me of a computer virus in her VM.
I did call SS tonight to see how his day in school was and to find out when he wants to get together to finish a science project that I have been helping him with. A tornado in a box. Pretty cool.
Anyway, when I called him, he was at the park with W by the house where he and his mom are staying. I couldn't help myself but to ask him if anyone was with them. He said 'no' and I am fairly confident that he was telling me the truth. It is unlikely that he would have answered the phone if OM had been with them.
My mind is playing tricks on me for sure. But I really don't know if W is having contact with OM or not at this point.
SS was playing when I called, so I told him that I'd call him back. Later when I called SS back, he was in front of W's house playing with a friend. I asked him what his mom was doing and he told me that she was on the front porch smoking.
We talked about the science project and when we were going to finish it up. He told me that W had told him that he/we would be finishing it later this weekend.
I am still having serious problems getting myself to focus on anything other than my situation. I have barely worked this week despite the fact that I have a huge trial that is suppose to begin on Monday. I did force myself to go to the office bc I had 2 meetings scheduled. I took care of those and then left.
Before I went home, I forced myself to go to the gym. I did a light workout and tried my best to get my mind off of things. It helped a little.
I checked the mail when I got home. W has never had her mailing address forwarded or changed. She received a letter today from an attorney regarding a credit card debt. I haven't opened it of course, but was able to see through the paper of the envelope.
If nothing else, W is going to ruin herself financially.
BITS
Denver
Denver.....
PLEASE don't use SS to get information about W or OM. You know better than this.
My mind is playing tricks on me for sure. But I really don't know if W is having contact with OM or not at this point.
It IS. You have realized your fears. You KNOW what to do. You have GREAT goals. It's just acting on them now. I know, not easy. But WE ALL know that you can. Now it's just a matter of YOU believing you CAN.
I still have my days when I can't focus on work. Days my mind starts getting the better of me. Have you tried anything to stop this?
I did the rubber band on the wrist for a while. It HELPED!
You can also just FORCE yourself to think about something else. Again, I am not saying any of this is easy. But we work and we work and we make progress.
I know that it is easy to let our negative thoughts build on top of each other. I've done it many times. But WE are the only ones who can stop that cycle.
One GAL activity. CHOOSE it. And then DO it.
It's a start.
As always, good luck sir.
Denver,
Counsellor,
You have a client to think of. Is this a criminal trial in which a man's life or liberty are at stake? Or is it merely someone's money and property at stake?
EITHER WAY...you must
Stop the obsessing about W, and the %^&* OM, who does not matter,
and do whatever it takes to get your head in the game...NOW.
You can always re-schedule the full resumption of obsessing & stalking and self inflicted misery, all you want, AFTER the trial....
Denver.....
PLEASE don't use SS to get information about W or OM. You know better than this.
It wasn't as bad as it sounded. Fairly typical questions for me to ask SS. I just listened to the answers a bit closer than usual.
Thanks for the encouragement and ideas CS.
Appreciate it as always.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
Counsellor,
You have a client to think of. Is this a criminal trial in which a man's life or liberty are at stake? Or is it merely someone's money and property at stake?
EITHER WAY...you must
Stop the obsessing about W, and the %^&* OM, who does not matter,
and do whatever it takes to get your head in the game...NOW.
You can always re-schedule the full resumption of obsessing & stalking and self inflicted misery, all you want, AFTER the trial....
Your last sentence made me laugh 25. Thanks!
You don't want to know the details of my trial... criminal though. I will get it together. I always do. Besides, it is a case that I've been preparing for 6 months or so. It's just the focus and the details that I need to get going on here soon.
Thanks as always 25!!
BITS
Denver
Denver,
I did Criminal Defense law for 3 years...well, 34 months, but who's counting?
I had looked forward to having innocent clients, and snatching them from the jaws of injustice. Unfortunately (or not, depending on your perspective)
most of my clients were guilty AND got convicted...so eventually I moved on...I can very well imagine your case and its' "dramatic" appeal.
ANYHOW,
so, today you were in touch with some deep pain (& FEARS galore) and engaging in major distraction. It's a fairly minor backslide.
Welcome to the human race.
You're one of the cognitive elites, so don't beat yourself up too much. I have a feeling in a year or two, I'll come back here and you will be at peace. Heck, you might even be what you'd call "Happy". Call it women's intuition, but This, I know.
so, today you were in touch with some deep pain (& FEARS galore) and engaging in major distraction. It's a fairly minor backslide.
Welcome to the human race.
You're one of the cognitive elites, so don't beat yourself up too much. I have a feeling in a year or two, I'll come back here and you will be at peace. Heck, you might even be what you'd call "Happy". Call it women's intuition, but This, I know.
Thanks 25. I know that I will be okay, and even happy, once this is all over... one way or the other.
Denver
Update... Need thoughts and/or advice
W sent me an email 2 hours ago. I have not yet responded or attempted to call her.
"Hey,
I wanted to see if you'd like to finish up the science project with SS tonight. He should turn it in as soon as possible.
Also, I would still like to go on Saturday.
Hope you are well. I'm hanging in there.
W"
Does anyone else see how weird the tone of this is? I keep harping on this, but I am very bothered that we go from talking every day, going to her bro's wedding together, to the hospital to see her sis's new baby...
and now she's saying 'hope you are well.'
A BIG part of me wants to tell her that I don't think that it's a good idea for her to go with me on Saturday. A big part.
BITS
Denver
Go and have fun!
My W is also being weird like this. No contact to telling me her life story when we do meet up.
Think of it this way - during the show, the two of you will be focused on the music and show, *not* each other (hopefully). Assuming the show is good, it will be a positive memory for both of you.
My 2 cents anyhow
Denver,
You want consistency more than happiness? Hey friend, she's not sure how she feels. But she's relaxed enough to be around you for an evening of musical entertainment.
So, why can't you see this as a gift?
Have fun Denver. U2? YAHOOOOOOO.
9
At this point I'd say don't read anything more into what she says, than what is on the surface. It'll just drive you crazy.
One of your goals as a LBS should be to deny the WAS a reason to believe that you're a source of her/his misery or unhappiness. Whether that means going to the concert or not going; that's up to you to decide.
It's a long, long road, but eventually it can lead to another level - becoming a source of happiness.
Denver,
While it may not be what you were getting a few weeks ago, her saying "hoping you are well" is still a positive thing. She could have said a million different things there, ranging from "I hope you burn in hell" all the way to "get over here right now and tear my clothes off". She also initiated contact and asked you to see her twice.
Go have fun with her.
What everyone else said. ^^
Denver, dude, you think waaayyyy too much.
Starsky
Denver, if you can make this an opportunity for a pleasant/fun interaction then make it a good memory for both of you. There is little downside and a lot of upside in doing so.
Sorry for this last bit, but if you cannot make this a pleasant/fun interaction who will be willing to commiserate with her?
Be the far better alternative.
Denver,
You want consistency more than happiness? Hey friend, she's not sure how she feels. But she's relaxed enough to be around you for an evening of musical entertainment.
So, why can't you see this as a gift?
Sure, that's the positive. The negative is that she gets to continue being on the fence and probably having contact with OM, but also the benefit of having me to take her to do fun stuff that neither she or OM could ever afford.
I guess that's why I'm somewhat torn. I want to take back some control over the situation. I don't have any boundaries right now whatsoever.
One of your goals as a LBS should be to deny the WAS a reason to believe that you're a source of her/his misery or unhappiness.
Definitely. And after 6 months, 3 of those months where it seemed like we were working towards reconciliation... W STILL views me as the source of her misery.
Denver,
She also initiated contact and asked you to see her twice.
Go have fun with her.
I'm leaning towards that for sure. I am just getting sick of feeling used Navy. Yes, she initiated contact, but that's bc she wants me to help SS finish his science project and wants to go see U2. Would she have done so otherwise? I don't know anymore.
Denver, if you can make this an opportunity for a pleasant/fun interaction then make it a good memory for both of you. There is little downside and a lot of upside in doing so.
Sorry for this last bit, but if you cannot make this a pleasant/fun interaction who will be willing to commiserate with her?
Be the far better alternative.
I think that this is really what it comes down to. As much as I don't like feeling like I am being used right now, and as much as I'd like to set some boundaries, I have to continue to be consistent with being someone fun and laid back for W to be with. And yes, to be the better person... the better alternative.
What everyone else said. ^^
Denver, dude, you think waaayyyy too much.
Starsky
Your post made me laugh Starsky. And I am a bit surprised that you agree that I should go. I have no boundaries with W right now and I continue to let her sit on the fence... most likely continuing contact with OM... and I am still taking her to see a concert.
That is why I am thinking so much. That... and I'm a lawyer
-------------
9 and LP - thanks for your thoughts guys.
-------------
Update....
I responded to W's email prior to reading any responses here.
Me: "Hi. Sure, I can finish Seth's science project with him tonight. Just call me later. I should be home by 5 today."
I did not bring up the concert at all. 1) bc I wanted more time to think about it, and 2) bc I want her to wonder WHY didn't respond to that part of her email.
In fact, I may not bring it up again until tomorrow.
W responded: "Ok. I should be home from work between 430 and 5. I will call you then. Thanks!"
Another interesting thought that just occurred to me (yes Starsky, I'm still thinking)... is that W has no idea that I cancelled our reservations to stay at the Ritz Carlton...
So when she said that she'd still like to go on Saturday, was she thinking of that too... did she forget...
We seriously need some federal funding to find a cure for WAS behavior and thinking... it is seriously whack.
BITS
Denver
Hey Denver,
WTF?
Since you have decided to spiral downward and are circling the mental emotional drain ANYHOW
...why not PUNISH her and say "NO WAY!! HOW DARE YOU!!?"
That way she can spend all of Saturday and the night with OM and that'll sure show her!! Good thinking!!...
AFTER ALL,
Why should she get to enjoy your company and the hotel, and the possibility of a GREAT NIGHT WITH YOU, where she could see the new improved RELAXED LAID BACK BUT ATTENTIVE you, and learn to be comfortable around you for ONE evening from which you could build...
when INSTEAD, you can cut her off at the knees and piss her off for not KNOWING & TRUSTING THAT YOUR CHANGES ARE REAL AND PERMANENT...????
Yeah, that's a brilliant plan. You'll show her!! You'll TEACH HER A LESSON!!
Yeah...brilliant plan. Proves how much you have changed!! And it "proves" how
great m to you today would be SO much better than before...
Oh wait, no it doesn't...it just makes OM look kinder, and more reliable and less into weird games...oops, my bad.
So, 25, tell us how you *really* feel
Hey Denver,
WTF?
Since you have decided to spiral downward and are circling the mental emotional drain ANYHOW
...why not PUNISH her and say "NO WAY!! HOW DARE YOU!!?"
That way she can spend all of Saturday and the night with OM and that'll sure show her!! Good thinking!!...
AFTER ALL,
Why should she get to enjoy your company and the hotel, and the possibility of a GREAT NIGHT WITH YOU, where she could see the new improved RELAXED LAID BACK BUT ATTENTIVE you, and learn to be comfortable around you for ONE evening from which you could build...
when INSTEAD, you can cut her off at the knees and piss her off for not KNOWING & TRUSTING THAT YOUR CHANGES ARE REAL AND PERMANENT...????
Yeah, that's a brilliant plan. You'll show her!! You'll TEACH HER A LESSON!!
Yeah...brilliant plan. Proves how much you have changed!! And it "proves" how
great m to you today would be SO much better than before...
Oh wait, no it doesn't...it just makes OM look kinder, and more reliable and less into weird games...oops, my bad.
Well put 25.
Ouch.
I had a problem with bounderies too Denver.
Then for the sake of my children I got over it.
Yeah, I felt like she wanted her cake and eat it too.
I felt two inches tall "allowing" her to live with me, while she pursued an R with someone else.
But that's it - bounderies are all about how YOU feel.
You feel used?
You feel cheated?
Betrayed?
OMG - disrespected !!!
And to make you feel better, you lay down some "bounderies."
It's what you perceive in your mind.
But she has no clue what's going on in your mind.
It's all you buddy.
If your goal is to one day reconcile, just answer this simple question.
Will it get me closer to my goal or push it further away?
"Change your thoughts and change your world"
Norman Vincent Peale
Update...
So W just called me. We had about a 15 minute conversation. W did most of the talking. She told me her landlord had messed up some utility bills causing W to owe $800 that she doesn't have this month. I did not offer to bail her out. I just told her that her landlord needs to be better about getting her the bills.
Then W went on to tell me about how she was pulled over for speeding this morning but only got a warning.
I just actively listened for the most part. I did make a conscious effort to sound like I was in a good mood.
Nothing too exciting here. The only reason I even bring it up is that W's demeanor and manner of talking was pretty normal, and not what I expected after just going 6 full days without speaking to one another.
Saturday's concert was not brought up by either of us.
The conversation ended with us talking about me helping SS out with his project tonight. W may be going out with a girlfriend, and if not, staying home to work.
Good times.
BITS
Denver
I dont know Denver. Its sounding more and more like a pissing war. Whos going to blink first.
Ask her point blank, the concert is coming up , you still interested?
If yes fine, have a great time, If NO, then again , no problem I will get somebody else to go. Either way, keep your demeaner the same.
Thursday is tomorrow, plans for the weekend should be made by now.
Dont give her any ammo to think that you are playing games with her about this. Its just matter of fact. The concert is in a couple of days and I need to get the plans final one way or another.
Just my two cents.
9
No she said in her email to me this morning, "I would still like to go on Saturday".
I just didn't respond to that part of her email, and neither of us have brought it up since.
I will either later tonight or tomorrow.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
how far is the concert from home? Do you have to stay in a hotel or was that "for fun"? If it's b/c it's far away, you really do need to figure something out soon.
Regardless, shelve the fears and just do as 9 says and go.
NOT going to the concert would be weirder and seems harder, than going will be.
Can you go to the concert and force yourself to ONLY focus on having a good time?? For one night Denver...you can.
BTW--At one point during the peak of H's MLC, he had a med conference in Palm Springs and I chose to go w/him per his request. The d's came too (then age 9 and 16).
It was going to be for 4 days and I did everything possible to make sure that the memories created in those days were going to be good ones. I worried that it was going to be the last "vacation" our family would have together for, perhaps, ever.
So, I chose to suspend any & all bad thoughts, or feelings or criticisms of h, any and all pain I had been feeling, I shelved for those 4 days. I just wanted to have those 4 days "fight free" and enjoyable. I let go of all that had happened and stayed "in the now". I chose to focus on what I had always liked about h, like his intelligence, interest in so many things, etc. Geez, H reacted really well and we really had a blast. So did the girls. You know, when you know it's temporary, you can do a lot of things you didn't know you could do.
To my surprise, Denver, that 4 days was the first glimpse I had of what forgiveness might look like. Of what moving forward could be like. It's not what I intended but I Thank God for that experience and what it taught me.
Can you have that for ONE night? Yes you can.
Denver,
how far is the concert from home? Do you have to stay in a hotel or was that "for fun"? If it's b/c it's far away, you really do need to figure something out soon.
The concert is in downtown Denver. We live about 45 minutes away. We will have to take a cab if we don't stay at hotel, unless I am sober, which I doubt that I will be.
So staying at the hotel was for both, convenience and for fun. AND the Ritz is where we got married.
Regardless, shelve the fears and just do as 9 says and go.
NOT going to the concert would be weirder and seems harder, than going will be.
Can you go to the concert and force yourself to ONLY focus on having a good time?? For one night Denver...you can.
I can. And I am going to. We will probably meet up with a couple of friends to eat and tailgate with who are going to the concert too. It will take a little of the pressure off. It's just the 2 of us for the actual concert though.
BTW--At one point during the peak of H's MLC, he had a med conference in Palm Springs and I chose to go w/him per his request. The d's came too (then age 9 and 16).
It was going to be for 4 days and I did everything possible to make sure that the memories created in those days were going to be good ones. I worried that it was going to be the last "vacation" our family would have together for, perhaps, ever.
So, I chose to suspend any & all bad thoughts, or feelings or criticisms of h, any and all pain I had been feeling, I shelved for those 4 days. I just wanted to have those 4 days "fight free" and enjoyable. I let go of all that had happened and stayed "in the now". I chose to focus on what I had always liked about h, like his intelligence, interest in so many things, etc. Geez, H reacted really well and we really had a blast. So did the girls. You know, when you know it's temporary, you can do a lot of things you didn't know you could do.
To my surprise, Denver, that 4 days was the first glimpse I had of what forgiveness might look like. Of what moving forward could be like. It's not what I intended but I Thank God for that experience and what it taught me.
Can you have that for ONE night? Yes you can.
Thanks again for sharing stories of your sitch 25. They really do help put things in perspective. They are also encouraging.
UPDATE...
So picked my SS up to take him back to my house to work on his science project. W was sitting on the front porch smoking when I arrived. I said 'hello' and asked where SS's school stuff was. She told me that it was inside the house. I immediately went inside to get his stuff. I did not stop to talk to W, hug her or anything. W followed me into the house and sat down. I grabbed SS's stuff. W began to tell me about some work project that she is working on and a problem she is having with the Apple software she is using. I tried helping her but was unable to bc I am unfamiliar with the software.
SS and I left, went to pick up a couple of things that we needed for the project and to get some dinner. We went back to my house and worked on the project for a couple of hours.
I took SS back to W's place at 9. W was again outside on the porch smoking. SS and I went inside to put his stuff away. I told him goodbye and that I love him and went out to front porch where W was.
I saw down and W and I spoke for about 30 minutes.
I asked W - "so you still want to go the concert on Saturday huh?"
W - "Yeah. I told you that I wanted to go all along."
Me - "Yeah, but you also said that you want space"
W - "yeah, but that doesn't mean that we can't do things occasionally"
I said okay and we talked about what time we would head to the concert on Saturday to eat and tailgate with our friends.
What happens after the concert was NOT brought up, so I still don't know if W thinks that we are staying at the hotel or what. I'm just going to play this one by ear on Saturday. I cancelled the reservations, but doubt that I'd have any problems getting a room the day of. But I'm also not going to bring it up. I'm going to assume that we will cab it home.
W asked me what I've been up to the past several days. I told her that I went out on Friday and Saturday night and to a movie on Sunday. W asked me who I went with for each thing and where we went on Friday and Saturday night. I told her.
When the movie that I saw on Sunday came up, I told W that I want to take SS to see Thor. I said that maybe I could take him on Friday night. I asked her what they were doing on Friday. She told me that she has a retirement party to go to and then is suppose to go back to the school she teaches at for a Glee club performance (she is one of the 2 Glee club teachers). She said that she was thinking about getting out of that. I told her that if she decided that she and SS wanted to go get dinner and see a movie to let me know. That I'd be up for that.
W brought up the fact that she has singing gigs almost every Saturday from after this weekend through most of the summer. She mentioned that she has a show in Aspen the first weekend of July when my daughter arrives for her summer visit. She also mentioned that she has 2 other shows up in the mountains while my D is here. We briefly talked about maybe taking the kids up to the mountains for one of them. She said that the show in Aspen that first weekend probably wouldn't be a good one to take them to.
W told me that she has the weekend of my H.S. reunion blocked off (no show) for now. I told her that I would understand if she decided that she doesn't want to go to that. She said that would be something that we could decide in July (the month of the reunion). I said that was fine.
W then mentioned that she was planning on moving from the place that she is in now at the end of June. She is unsure where she is going to move bc she needs to decide where she wants to put SS in school at. He is struggling at his current school and W is unhappy with the way that the school is handling it. She doesn't want SS to go to school there next year.
The talk of W moving into another place irritated me. It pretty much says that she has no plans on moving home any time soon. I wanted to tell her that if she does that, that I am going to strongly consider selling our home... which I am for financial reasons and my commute. There is no reason for me to continue paying for a house this large and living 45 minutes away from my office if my W isn't even living with me. I bit my lip though and didn't say anything.
W also told me that she did not cash the check that I had given her last week to help her. I asked her why not and she explained that her mom had lent her some money.
No R talk. No talk of OM. If W has some sort of plan, I have no idea what it is.
I hugged W goodbye and left.
BITS
Denver
That all sounds fine. I guess the part that bothers me is that, right now, she is invited to all of these events with you, and it is completely up to her if you go as a couple, or not. I think if you want to stay downtown for the concert, you should choose another hotel, not the one you were married at. As for the other events of the summer, perhaps you can find a way to take back the open invitations, and issue individual invitations as the events come up, subject to your desire.
Maybe it's just my perception, but it seems like she feels she has a right to know where you go and who you are with, but she lives her life in a shroud of mystery. I don't think it is good for either spouse to feel that they can completely control the situation. You might meet someone in the course of the summer, and want to take the new woman to the reunion. Or you might choose to go alone and see those hot cheerleaders from high school. Things might change over time.
As for selling the house, do it. She has indicated that she does not want to move back into that house. If you don't want to stay there, then move on. I think it will help your situation.
Denver,
Her "plan"? Denver, I would bet anything all she's thinking of, is now and maybe next week...it's all too complicated for her. She's still not processing that you are a different man. And she's got SS and his stuff, and OM is on the back burner for now. You're the one she is connected to but you're also the guy she WAS fighting with...
Down the road, she'll start to really "meet" the new & Improved Denver..
BTW, There's a guy named faithfulh (or "faithfulhusband") and his WAW came home. They've been pretty close and happy together since, and they moved cross country for a job of his. A man named Robx had some good things going on with his WAW, as did a guy named gucci. See what their take on this is, b/c their w's sounded a tad like yours. I don't always agree with them but that's cool, and sometimes men need men who are ahead of them on their journey/nightmare and on the "other side".
But all YOU have to "do" right now, is enjoy a concert on Saturday night!! Nothing else. Relax, be attentive and do 180's ALL NIGHT...
oh, that brings me to he other "issue"...after the concert and the (drum roll please...
WEDDING NIGHT HOTEL, 
Let's see what the options are...
#1)...um, ahem, can YOU handle being in that room all night,
and NOT ML? How does that fly? I'm thinking of you on Sunday morning and I'm seeing a bummed out Denver. I'm seeing many steps backwards...
& That's assuming you both remain in the room til morning. hmmm REALISTICALLY, the best case scenario is maybe you watch movies and talk all night, but is that likley? NO, Not so much. I would fear comments and feedback from her saying "Stop, you're smothering" & "stop pursuing" blah blah blah.
OR, Option #2.... let's say things seem fun @ the concert. You guys are laughing and singing along, maybe hugging and high fiving, maybe some kissing, and things are progressing and yada yada
,
and you go to the room. There, you DO ML and I have to ask..um, HOW WILL
the next morning go?for YOU?My guess would be the withdrawal of most of her "troops" Sunday morning -- a 90% chance of a major retreat.
She may say you pressured her or worse, that she "made a horrible mistake" and "never again"...blah blah blah...how will that feel for you? You ready to hear that type of stuff? Denver, maybe she'll fall into your arms and say OMG I've missed you so much. I KNOW that is what your dream is. I think it's possible but a lot more possible a year from now.
I think that hotel is a place to aim for, in a year or two...[color:#FF0000]
not this weekend. B/C no matter how it goes for you, you'll be hurt the next morning, UNLESS lightning strikes and she bolts back to you...which is unrealistic and unhealthy-wouldn't work in the long run anyhow[/color. If SHE brings up the hotel room's existence, you say
"Oh W, that room's for couples, & given the circumstances, I cancelled awhile back" BTW Denver, I think it's good for her to know you cancelled long ago, not recently.
OR just shrug as if it's obvious why you'd do this, and say "Oh, yeah I cancelled it months ago" with no editorializing. But THAT MOMENT when you say it calmly and she sees a real sign that you are accepting her foolish choice, is a significant moment.
She may show you nothing then, but
she'll know, that YOU CANCELLED A CHANCE TO BE IN A HOTEL ROOM WITH HER, THE ROOM FROM YOUR WEDDING NIGHT...and That Action says a whole lot that words can't. Be strong. You can have a great "non date" Saturday night, but trust me, part of her will want to go to the hotel...OMG I would bet that's exactly the type of event she wanted you to plan while married, (a ccurate??) Hmm, Maybe next year? If she says something about it, get a rain check.
That all sounds fine. I guess the part that bothers me is that, right now, she is invited to all of these events with you, and it is completely up to her if you go as a couple, or not. I think if you want to stay downtown for the concert, you should choose another hotel, not the one you were married at. As for the other events of the summer, perhaps you can find a way to take back the open invitations, and issue individual invitations as the events come up, subject to your desire.
Maybe it's just my perception, but it seems like she feels she has a right to know where you go and who you are with, but she lives her life in a shroud of mystery. I don't think it is good for either spouse to feel that they can completely control the situation. You might meet someone in the course of the summer, and want to take the new woman to the reunion. Or you might choose to go alone and see those hot cheerleaders from high school. Things might change over time.
As for selling the house, do it. She has indicated that she does not want to move back into that house. If you don't want to stay there, then move on. I think it will help your situation.
This. ^^^
All of this ^^^^^. Lotus beat me to the punch on it.
30 minute convos are too long, and you shouldn't have told her all the specifics of who you were with for each night, other than "some friends," and then high-tail it outta there with a "don't mean to be rude, but I gotta run."
Starsky
Denver,
Her "plan"? Denver, I would bet anything all she's thinking of, is now and maybe next week...it's all too complicated for her. She's still not processing that you are a different man. And she's got SS and his stuff, and OM is on the back burner for now. You're the one she is connected to but you're also the guy she WAS fighting with...
Down the road, she'll start to really "meet" the new & Improved Denver..
BTW, There's a guy named faithfulh (or "faithfulhusband") and his WAW came home. They've been pretty close and happy together since, and they moved cross country for a job of his. A man named Robx had some good things going on with his WAW, as did a guy named gucci. See what their take on this is, b/c their w's sounded a tad like yours. I don't always agree with them but that's cool, and sometimes men need men who are ahead of them on their journey/nightmare and on the "other side".
But all YOU have to "do" right now, is enjoy a concert on Saturday night!! Nothing else. Relax, be attentive and do 180's ALL NIGHT...
oh, that brings me to he other "issue"...after the concert and the (drum roll please...
WEDDING NIGHT HOTEL, Let's see what the options are...
#1)...um, ahem, can YOU handle being in that room all night,
and NOT ML? How does that fly? I'm thinking of you on Sunday morning and I'm seeing a bummed out Denver. I'm seeing many steps backwards...
& That's assuming you both remain in the room til morning. hmmm REALISTICALLY, the best case scenario is maybe you watch movies and talk all night, but is that likley? NO, Not so much. I would fear comments and feedback from her saying "Stop, you're smothering" & "stop pursuing" blah blah blah.
OR, Option #2.... let's say things seem fun @ the concert. You guys are laughing and singing along, maybe hugging and high fiving, maybe some kissing, and things are progressing and yada yada
,
and you go to the room. There, you DO ML and I have to ask..um, HOW WILL
the next morning go?for YOU?My guess would be the withdrawal of most of her "troops" Sunday morning -- a 90% chance of a major retreat.
She may say you pressured her or worse, that she "made a horrible mistake" and "never again"...blah blah blah...how will that feel for you? You ready to hear that type of stuff? Denver, maybe she'll fall into your arms and say OMG I've missed you so much. I KNOW that is what your dream is. I think it's possible but a lot more possible a year from now.
I think that hotel is a place to aim for, in a year or two...[color:#FF0000]
not this weekend. B/C no matter how it goes for you, you'll be hurt the next morning, UNLESS lightning strikes and she bolts back to you...which is unrealistic and unhealthy-wouldn't work in the long run anyhow[/color. If SHE brings up the hotel room's existence, you say
"Oh W, that room's for couples, & given the circumstances, I cancelled awhile back" BTW Denver, I think it's good for her to know you cancelled long ago, not recently.
OR just shrug as if it's obvious why you'd do this, and say "Oh, yeah I cancelled it months ago" with no editorializing. But THAT MOMENT when you say it calmly and she sees a real sign that you are accepting her foolish choice, is a significant moment.
She may show you nothing then, but
she'll know, that YOU CANCELLED A CHANCE TO BE IN A HOTEL ROOM WITH HER, THE ROOM FROM YOUR WEDDING NIGHT...and That Action says a whole lot that words can't. Be strong. You can have a great "non date" Saturday night, but trust me, part of her will want to go to the hotel...OMG I would bet that's exactly the type of event she wanted you to plan while married, (a ccurate??) Hmm, Maybe next year? If she says something about it, get a rain check.
Wisdom. ^^^
Sorry to sound like such a sycophant this morning, Denver, but this stuff is just GOLDEN that you're getting here, I hope you realize that.
I don't see anything in your CURRENT state of emotions that would indicate that you could pull this off WITHOUT expectations and then bitter disappointment, Denver. Please know that's NOT a criticism -- just an observation. You're still way too enmeshed with her, emotionally, and I share all of 25's concerns here about the hotel.
Starsky
Its so nice to listen to 25's Wisdom, ( especially when you are not dodging a 2x4, LOL) but seriously, the hotel thing makes so much sense not to do.
I think I know you a little Dener judging by your posts and I think I KNOW how much you want this hotel thing to work and spark her love again. But listen to 25, I dont see any good coming from this other than short term gratification.
The next morning will be very awkward i presume. Just be cool about the whole thing.
Have a great time man.
9
Her "plan"? Denver, I would bet anything all she's thinking of, is now and maybe next week...it's all too complicated for her. She's still not processing that you are a different man. And she's got SS and his stuff, and OM is on the back burner for now. You're the one she is connected to but you're also the guy she WAS fighting with...
That's what I figure. I think that she is very, very confused about what she wants for her life right now, about what she can do to help SS and her R with him, and about whether or not she can get over and/or forgive me for the things that caused her to leave in the first place.
It does scare me to think that she may move to another place with, most likely, another lease. Yet she can't afford the place that she is in now, so I imagine that she is feeling pressure there.
Down the road, she'll start to really "meet" the new & Improved Denver..
Hopefully she will give him a chance.
BTW, There's a guy named faithfulh (or "faithfulhusband") and his WAW came home. They've been pretty close and happy together since, and they moved cross country for a job of his. A man named Robx had some good things going on with his WAW, as did a guy named gucci. See what their take on this is, b/c their w's sounded a tad like yours. I don't always agree with them but that's cool, and sometimes men need men who are ahead of them on their journey/nightmare and on the "other side".
I'm always happy to hear what others have to say or offer re my sitch. I have had some male perspective on it. Jack3Beans has been great. And his sitch was pretty similar to mine. Plus, I have all of the BITS who are going through their stuff with me.
But all YOU have to "do" right now, is enjoy a concert on Saturday night!! Nothing else. Relax, be attentive and do 180's ALL NIGHT...
I will. I promise.
oh, that brings me to he other "issue"...after the concert and the (drum roll please...
WEDDING NIGHT HOTEL, Let's see what the options are...
#1)...um, ahem, can YOU handle being in that room all night,
and NOT ML? How does that fly? I'm thinking of you on Sunday morning and I'm seeing a bummed out Denver. I'm seeing many steps backwards...
& That's assuming you both remain in the room til morning. Actually, I think that I could handle that bc I wouldn't be expecting it even if we did stay at the hotel. Honestly.
hmmm REALISTICALLY, the best case scenario is maybe you watch movies and talk all night, but is that likley?
That would be the best case scenerio. I'm looking for establishing emotional connection with W more than physical connection. So yes, realistically, the best case scenario would be us staying and talking into the wee hours of the night.
OR, Option #2.... let's say things seem fun @ the concert. You guys are laughing and singing along, maybe hugging and high fiving, maybe some kissing, and things are progressing and yada yada
,
and you go to the room. There, you DO ML and I have to ask..um, HOW WILL
the next morning go?for YOU?My guess would be the withdrawal of most of her "troops" Sunday morning -- a 90% chance of a major retreat.
She may say you pressured her or worse, that she "made a horrible mistake" and "never again"...blah blah blah...how will that feel for you? You ready to hear that type of stuff? Denver, maybe she'll fall into your arms and say OMG I've missed you so much. I KNOW that is what your dream is. I think it's possible but a lot more possible a year from now.
I agree. ML would probably not be the best thing for us right now.
I think that hotel is a place to aim for, in a year or two...[color:#FF0000]not this weekend. B/C no matter how it goes for you, you'll be hurt the next morning, UNLESS lightning strikes and she bolts back to you...which is unrealistic and unhealthy-wouldn't work in the long run anyhow[/color.
A year or two down the road!? WTF? I know that you are just giving me your honest opinion. But that just seems so daunting. As I sit here now, I can't imagine this going on for another year or two 25.
If SHE brings up the hotel room's existence, you say "Oh W, that room's for couples, & given the circumstances, I cancelled awhile back" BTW Denver, I think it's good for her to know you cancelled long ago, not recently.
OR just shrug as if it's obvious why you'd do this, and say "Oh, yeah I cancelled it months ago" with no editorializing. But THAT MOMENT when you say it calmly and she sees a real sign that you are accepting her foolish choice, is a significant moment.
She may show you nothing then, but she'll know, that YOU CANCELLED A CHANCE TO BE IN A HOTEL ROOM WITH HER, THE ROOM FROM YOUR WEDDING NIGHT...and That Action says a whole lot that words can't.
I think that your idea on what to tell her is good. That is what I will do. (I think)
Be strong. You can have a great "non date" Saturday night, but trust me, part of her will want to go to the hotel...OMG I would bet that's exactly the type of event she wanted you to plan while married, (a ccurate??) Hmm, Maybe next year? If she says something about it, get a rain check.
Actually, it is the kind of event that we would plan together quite often early in our R.
I am going to try and avoid convo about the hotel. It is cancelled. She should be assuming that I've cancelled it, so it probably won't even come up. W probably hasn't mentioned it bc she is uncomfortable telling me that she is uncomfortable with the idea.
I'm just going to focus on having a good time at the concert and with my W. Hopefully, it is a fun experience for both of us and causes her to want more. I think that's the best that I can hope for.
BITS
Denver
Due to the wonderful power of the internet and satelites.
Denver,
Instead of looking at years....look at today and tomorrow, only.
Do your best today with an eye toward tomorrow. Reapeat that process as long as you can. If you had to walk to China, you'd quit before you put on your shoes.
What are your expectations for the concert?
IF they are anything beyond listening to U2 and enjoying yourself...you're setting yourself up for a bad time.
Now if you'll excuse me there are some clams to dig up.
What are your expectations for the concert?
Bout time Jack... I was giving you props for helping so much, but hadn't heard from you in a while!
I don't really have any expectations. Honestly. I'm just hoping that we have fun together and that it is not 'weird'. I'm just going to do my best to relax and have good time with her.
I am worried about the week and weeks following this weekend though. We don't have anything else planned for a while and I anticipate that there will be more silence between us in the weeks ahead.
Thanks Jack.
BITS
Denver
That all sounds fine. I guess the part that bothers me is that, right now, she is invited to all of these events with you, and it is completely up to her if you go as a couple, or not. I think if you want to stay downtown for the concert, you should choose another hotel, not the one you were married at. As for the other events of the summer, perhaps you can find a way to take back the open invitations, and issue individual invitations as the events come up, subject to your desire.
Well, I think that it is up to her only if I let it be Lotus. As the days and weeks go on, I will just have to reassess each thing that we have planned. If things are really bad at any given time, I won't hesitate to take someone else, or go alone.
Maybe it's just my perception, but it seems like she feels she has a right to know where you go and who you are with, but she lives her life in a shroud of mystery. I don't think it is good for either spouse to feel that they can completely control the situation. You might meet someone in the course of the summer, and want to take the new woman to the reunion. Or you might choose to go alone and see those hot cheerleaders from high school. Things might change over time.
It's not just your perception. She does seem to think that she has the right to know what I do and who I am doing it with. I'm fairly confident that she is worried about me beginning to date. And I have to tell you, that thought occurs to me more and more each day. I don't plan on doing anything like that as long as she has OM on the back burner. If I find out that that has changed, then I don't know... I will cross that bridge when I come to it.
Things do change over time, for sure.
As for selling the house, do it. She has indicated that she does not want to move back into that house. If you don't want to stay there, then move on. I think it will help your situation.
Not sure how it will help my situation. I know that she loves our house, so I think that it might actually remove one motivating factor for her to move home if I sold the house. There is no question that I'd sell it if I knew W and I were done. But to sell it with everything so up in the air, would complicate things.
Denver
Bout time Jack... I was giving you props for helping so much, but hadn't heard from you in a while!
I don't really have any expectations. Honestly. I'm just hoping that we have fun together and that it is not 'weird'. I'm just going to do my best to relax and have good time with her.
I am worried about the week and weeks following this weekend though. We don't have anything else planned for a while and I anticipate that there will be more silence between us in the weeks ahead.
Thanks Jack.
BITS
Denver
Well, when Jack goes quiet it is usually because he is out doing something awesome in that gorgeous part of the world he lives in...
Something that the rest of us are too citified to do...
Sorry 25, but someday, I plan on going Alaskan, or at least to the top of some really tall mountain where it snows in August...
Denver,
It's gonna be wierd...
Because you are still seeing your W...
And you are worried about the weeks down the road...
Stop...
Stop saying "I am going to the concert with my W (who btw, isn't sure she wants to be my W)"
And say...
"I am going to the concert on Saturday with a person."
Lather, rinse, repeat...
Until you get it...
I don't think I buy the no expectations thing, but I will let it slide for now...
Go, have fun. That is the point of a concert right?
Denver,
about the reunion...unless things are VERY Different, why on earth would you bring her? Let me rephrase...did she go to HS with you? If so, then I retract that comment. She'd be there anyhow so have fun together and avoid awkward questions by showing up together.
But assuming she did not attend the same HS as you did, then let me make a few comments while I can. (Am leaving tonight for a jury case/selection-NO, not the Casey Anthony trial...I wish...sort of...)
THE REUNION...
I was one of those peeps in HS who was into it. I always planned on attending the reunions and have never missed any. That means the 5th/10th/15/20/25/30 and now the annual reunions surrounding our homecoming games.
To this day, I am responsible for planning them! I didn't know when I ran for sr class pres that it was a lifetime commitment to planning these events, (even if you live 3000 miles away or are active duty Army in a war)..
Anyhow, I'm guessing this is your 20th? That particular reunion is for reconnecting with old friends and finding new friendships with people you may have only superficially known back then.
Most of the competitive pettiness and gossip has passed with the 10 year re-union. People at this stage of life are simply more caring and intereted. This event can be a wonderfully warm, comforting and affirming evening. It raises your self esteem and you will feel attractive & interesting & successful to people (b/c we all know enough about you to know that much.)
SO----Why bring your w at all? Don't bring her Denver.
Here's why: 1) SHE will NOT have much fun, 2) she'll need attention from you, which means YOU won't get the whole reconnecting with old friends or getting closer to friends you now have more in common with. You won't get the chance to meaningfully talk, (let alone dance), 3) so YOU won't have as much fun...and
4) there's a chance she'll spill her guts and tell people you two are having troubles, which could easily wreck your whole night/month...or, OR or she'll...what? What? She'll Get jealous? That's way more likely to happen if you go alone.
In sum,
What's the up side to bringing her? I don't see it.
OTHER ISSUE- She does seem to think she's entitled to know more than she is about your life and GALs...Start off by not going along with that.
Be cool about it, (not angry at her obvious double standards).
Maybe act startled by her "need to know"...like "What W? You want to know what I'm doing or where I'm going and with whom? OH, hmmm, Geez, I could have sworn you were Div'g me..."
NO- you don't SAY any of this...you "radiate" it. and you privately gloat b/c Denver, she still cares!
When is the reunion? Didn't she mention that she blocked time off for it? Hmm, why'd she do that?
Okay so have fun this weekend. Enjoy the music and the show, and whatever else happens...no decisions, no pursuit, no "realizations", just a fun weekend. A break. A rest...good luck
It's gonna be wierd...
Because you are still seeing your W...
And you are worried about the weeks down the road...
Stop...
Stop saying "I am going to the concert with my W (who btw, isn't sure she wants to be my W)"
And say...
"I am going to the concert on Saturday with a person."
Lather, rinse, repeat...
Until you get it...
That's what I need to do for sure.
I don't think I buy the no expectations thing, but I will let it slide for now...
Go, have fun. That is the point of a concert right?
Maybe I should rephrase that. I know that I should not have any expectations and I'm doing my best not to have any.
I think that we will have fun. W and I usually do when we go to concerts together. Which used to be a lot.
Thanks Cat!
Denver
Denver,
about the reunion...unless things are VERY Different, why on earth would you bring her? Let me rephrase...did she go to HS with you? If so, then I retract that comment. She'd be there anyhow so have fun together and avoid awkward questions by showing up together.
But assuming she did not attend the same HS as you did, then let me make a few comments while I can. (Am leaving tonight for a jury case/selection-NO, not the Casey Anthony trial...I wish...sort of...)
THE REUNION...
I was one of those peeps in HS who was into it. I always planned on attending the reunions and have never missed any. That means the 5th/10th/15/20/25/30 and now the annual reunions surrounding our homecoming games.
To this day, I am responsible for planning them! I didn't know when I ran for sr class pres that it was a lifetime commitment to planning these events, (even if you live 3000 miles away or are active duty Army in a war)..
Anyhow, I'm guessing this is your 20th? That particular reunion is for reconnecting with old friends and finding new friendships with people you may have only superficially known back then.
Most of the competitive pettiness and gossip has passed with the 10 year re-union. People at this stage of life are simply more caring and intereted. This event can be a wonderfully warm, comforting and affirming evening. It raises your self esteem and you will feel attractive & interesting & successful to people (b/c we all know enough about you to know that much.)
SO----Why bring your w at all? Don't bring her Denver.
Here's why: 1) SHE will NOT have much fun, 2) she'll need attention from you, which means YOU won't get the whole reconnecting with old friends or getting closer to friends you now have more in common with. You won't get the chance to meaningfully talk, (let alone dance), 3) so YOU won't have as much fun...and
4) there's a chance she'll spill her guts and tell people you two are having troubles, which could easily wreck your whole night/month...or, OR or she'll...what? What? She'll Get jealous? That's way more likely to happen if you go alone.
In sum,
What's the up side to bringing her? I don't see it.
Hmmm... those are all very good points.
Yes, it's my 20th. It is in the middle of July, so a lot could happen between now and then.
But your question about what the upside of taking her would be is a good one. I'm not sure what that would be now that I think of it.
OTHER ISSUE- She does seem to think she's entitled to know more than she is about your life and GALs...Start off by not going along with that.
Be cool about it, (not angry at her obvious double standards).
Maybe act startled by her "need to know"...like "What W? You want to know what I'm doing or where I'm going and with whom? OH, hmmm, Geez, I could have sworn you were Div'g me..."
NO- you don't SAY any of this...you "radiate" it. and you privately gloat b/c Denver, she still cares!
When is the reunion? Didn't she mention that she blocked time off for it? Hmm, why'd she do that?
Okay so have fun this weekend. Enjoy the music and the show, and whatever else happens...no decisions, no pursuit, no "realizations", just a fun weekend. A break. A rest...good luck
Yeah, I think that W wanting to know these things is a pretty good indication that she still cares.
I need to work on my reaction to her questioning these things. It's kind of a tough one, bc W has always had trust issues with me... mainly for being vague and not telling her who I was with or what I was doing early on in our R. So to act that way now very well may remind her of the reasons for these trust issues.
At the same time, you and Lotus are both correct. She does have double standards right now, and that isn't fair.
I plan on enjoying the concert this weekend and using it as a break from all of this. Like I said in response to Cat, I think that it will go well. W and I always enjoy these types of events together.
Denver
She does have double standards right now, and that isn't fair.
You know, just a couple pennies, but I wouldn’t make too big of deal out of this. I REALLY doubt she is thinking it is a double standard at all. I doubt she thinks about her questions a whole lot, if at all.
The thing is, when you ask her what she is doing, who she is with, etc, she is assuming you are wondering if she is with OM. Does she have a legit reason for thinking this way?
Might be the best question to ask yourself. And if so, how do you change that?
She does have double standards right now, and that isn't fair.
You know, just a couple pennies, but I wouldn’t make too big of deal out of this. I REALLY doubt she is thinking it is a double standard at all. I doubt she thinks about her questions a whole lot, if at all.
The thing is, when you ask her what she is doing, who she is with, etc, she is assuming you are wondering if she is with OM. Does she have a legit reason for thinking this way?
Might be the best question to ask yourself. And if so, how do you change that?
Of course she has a legit reason to assume that I am wondering if she is with OM. But I think that I have a legit reason to be wondering. Don't I?
And I'm sure that you are right. That she doesn't think about the questions that she is asking me. But who knows? I guess that it really doesn't matter at this point.
BITS
Denver
But I think that I have a legit reason to be wondering. Don't I?
Probably, but not in her eyes.
Yo, I was short on time earlier, so I just want to expand on my point. Note, this comes from someone in the trenches as you know, so I am still figuring out "what works."
While you believe you have a right to know if she is with OM or not, the last thing you want to do is convey to her you care. You don't ask the question because shoot, even if she is, it's her loss right. She could be with DENVER, the high powered mile high attorney at law. Instead she is with some broke dude? No worries. Right?
Then there are the times she does ask you what you are doing or who you are with. You can simply tell her, because you have nothing to hide. Your a good guy.
Or you can play it cool, and be vague. She hasn't responded well to this, but who knows, sometimes first impressions are deceiving. That's a risk you need to decide if it worth taking.
What you CANNOT do IMO, is bring any of this up with her. Doing so will only come across as childish IMO.
I guess I just don't see a whole lot to worry about here. Is this another 25 quote? Would you rather be right or married?
Denver,
Worries and fears are long range thinking.
Today and tomorrow are not.
F the fear and worry.
What are you afraid of today that isn't linked to the long term.
Yo, I was short on time earlier, so I just want to expand on my point. Note, this comes from someone in the trenches as you know, so I am still figuring out "what works."
While you believe you have a right to know if she is with OM or not, the last thing you want to do is convey to her you care. You don't ask the question because shoot, even if she is, it's her loss right. She could be with DENVER, the high powered mile high attorney at law. Instead she is with some broke dude? No worries. Right?
Then there are the times she does ask you what you are doing or who you are with. You can simply tell her, because you have nothing to hide. Your a good guy.
Or you can play it cool, and be vague. She hasn't responded well to this, but who knows, sometimes first impressions are deceiving. That's a risk you need to decide if it worth taking.
What you CANNOT do IMO, is bring any of this up with her. Doing so will only come across as childish IMO.
I guess I just don't see a whole lot to worry about here. Is this another 25 quote? Would you rather be right or married?
I agree with you whole heartedly CS.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
Worries and fears are long range thinking.
Today and tomorrow are not.
F the fear and worry.
What are you afraid of today that isn't linked to the long term.
I get you Jack. But I'm a person that is always looking long range. This has been something about DB that I have had a lot of problems with. My mind is always trying to think 2, 3 or 4 moves ahead. And when you don't know WTF your W is thinking or what her intentions are, that is very difficult bc there is no way to anticipate 2, 3, or 4 moves ahead. It is impossible. My mind likes to try anyway though.
BITS
Denver
Im not sure if loving someone is a choice.
Being "in love" is a feeling
Lust is a feeling
Loving someone is at least in part a choice. I will explain......
It’s a feeling I can’t control because the heart wants what it wants, and a part of me can’t control who I’m attracted to, drawn to, or have chemistry with.
But a part of it is a choice– a commitment to hold on to this person I have chemistry with— forever, with the realistic view that this person is not going to always be as perfect as they seem right now.
It’s living with the realistic view that it’s not always going to be easy, and I’m not always going to want this person as strongly and as passionately as I do now–
But when those times come, I’ve backed up my feelings with a decision to stay through it all.
Why?
Because the feelings are volatile.
They come and go.
It’s my commitment that is forever.
It shouldn’t change like the feelings.
So the answer to the question, is love a choice or a feeling?
Well, it’s both.
Basically this kind of love does not waver and
is not impacted
by the lover’s actionsYou can despise the action but continue to love the person.
We do with our kids all the time.
Forgiveness is not a feeling; it is a commitment.
It begins when one person decides; I’m going to express love to my spouse in spite of the fact that I don’t have warm feelings toward her.
JMHO
Didn't feel like typing it twice but thoght you might benefit from it.
Thanks 2step... I read that on 9's thread.
BITS
Denver
While you believe you have a right to know if she is with OM or not, the last thing you want to do is convey to her you care. You don't ask the question because shoot, even if she is, it's her loss right. She could be with DENVER, the high powered mile high attorney at law. Instead she is with some broke dude? No worries. Right?
I was short on time earlier CS. Thanks for your thoughtful remarks. I am doing my best to not mention OM in the slightest. And I haven't mentioned him in 2 weeks.
My problem is the wondering mind. I am fairly confident that W is having contact with OM, but I do not know the frequency or if that contact includes anything more than telephone calls and/or text messages. I don't THINK that she has seen him in a few weeks though. Point is, it is extremely difficult to just drop the rope on this and not ask questions of SS and W that at least give me hints as to what W is doing. I try to do it subtly and think that I have. The bigger problem is my mind working in overdrive trying to piece all of the hints together to come up with a cohesive idea of what is going on.
I don't know if I even need to do this as my W has been pretty upfront with me about everything up to this point, even when the facts have been brutal. And what she has told me is that she is 'keeping in touch' with OM, that she needs 'space from everyone' and time. I suppose that I should just take her at her word.
At the 'hints' that I've gathered in my convo's with her and SS seem to support that she is still being upfront.
It still drives me crazy though... close to literally crazy
Then there are the times she does ask you what you are doing or who you are with. You can simply tell her, because you have nothing to hide. Your a good guy.
Or you can play it cool, and be vague. She hasn't responded well to this, but who knows, sometimes first impressions are deceiving. That's a risk you need to decide if it worth taking.
With the trust issues that my W has with me, it isn't worth playing vague with this... at least not right now. Thing is, I have no problem giving W ALL of the time and space that she needs... hell, I could give her a year or more! ... IF I knew that she was using that time to figure out how to get to a place where she is ready to work on our M. IF I knew that she wasn't dating OM or anyone else. See, if that were the case, I may have to consider "closing the gates" to her completely by taking me out of the equation altogether. I guess that's why I feel that I deserve to know... that I need to know.
What you CANNOT do IMO, is bring any of this up with her. Doing so will only come across as childish IMO.
I guess I just don't see a whole lot to worry about here. Is this another 25 quote? Would you rather be right or married?
No... I have no plans to bring up the double standard that W has about this now. I agree with you that she probably doesn't even recognize it as such.
BITS
Denver
Journaling...
I asked myself this multipart question this afternoon:
1. Do I believe that if I continue the fight and continue to wait this out that my W will ultimately come back to me?
2. If so, how long am I willing to fight and to wait?
3. If so, am I willing to do so even if that means that W may resume A with OM during that time?
My answers:
1. Yes.
2. Indefinitely
3. I don't know.
The third part of that question is the hardest part to answer. Why? Bc the idea of W having an active A makes me violently ill and violently p!ssed. BUT, I have experienced having THAT conversation with W where she has told me that she has slept with someone else... I have experienced going through learning that after the fact... and I have learned that I do have the capability to forgive her.
All of that, combined with the knowledge that I played a HUGE part in why all of this is happening ... well, makes me extremely confused on the third part of my question to myself.
If I walk away when I am confident that W will come back eventually, when I know that I can wait indefinitely for that to happen... and when I know that I am capable of forgiving her for what happens in the meantime ... will I regret it??
Maybe that's the ultimate question?
BITS
Denver
I think this is a better question for you Denver.
Are you willing to do this WITHOUT knowing if you will save your M?
Because that IS the TRUTH. No guarantees. Not in any part of life, this is no exception.
Your answer?
I think this is a better question for you Denver.
Are you willing to do this WITHOUT knowing if you will save your M?
Because that IS the TRUTH. No guarantees. Not in any part of life, this is no exception.
Your answer?
No question CS. There are no guarantees on anything. Even with reconciliation, there are no guarantees that I, or even my W, wouldn't end up here again! No guarantees in life at all.
What I was saying is that my gut... my instinct... tells me that ultimately W will come back to me. That is simply based on knowing her like I do, what she and I have talked about over the past 3 months, and even little comments that she makes in passing now, when she is not sure what she wants. And its based on the fact that I'm 99% confident that W would never fall in love with or marry OM... at least the current OM. I honestly believe that she is just enjoying the attention and enjoying the feeling of being fought for... and sought after. I suppose if another OM pops up, then all bets are off! LOL...
But to answer your question directly... yes. I am willing to go through this not actually knowing what the outcome will be.
But like I said, if W resumes A with OM, then I feel that I need to know, so that I can make an honest decision for myself on how to proceed at that point.
I hate to ask this question of you, Islander, 9, and any others that are going through this knowing that your W is having an ACTIVE A... but how are you dealing with this? Seriously?
My experience was that I knew of EA, and suspected possible PA, but didn't know for sure until it was over. All that I had to deal with was deciding if I was willing to figure out how to forgive something that had already happened and was over...
Thus my problem if W resumes A with OM... I will have to either learn how to accept that, or I will decide that I can't and that I am DONE.
BITS
Denver
My problem is the wondering mind. I am fairly confident that W is having contact with OM, but I do not know the frequency or if that contact includes anything more than telephone calls and/or text messages. I don't THINK that she has seen him in a few weeks though. Point is, it is extremely difficult to just drop the rope on this and not ask questions of SS and W that at least give me hints as to what W is doing. I try to do it subtly and think that I have. The bigger problem is my mind working in overdrive trying to piece all of the hints together to come up with a cohesive idea of what is going on.
What would you be doing differently depending on what the answer was?
It still drives me crazy though... close to literally crazy
It IS!!!
I know that you realize you are not helping yourself by being obsessed with OM, so why keep doing it? I know we can't keep thoughts from popping in our head, but we can work to stop them, and at least not obsess on them when we do have them. Remember the "Stop Sign" thing?
Thing is, I have no problem giving W ALL of the time and space that she needs... hell, I could give her a year or more! ... IF I knew that she was using that time to figure out how to get to a place where she is ready to work on our M. IF I knew that she wasn't dating OM or anyone else.
Same thing I said above, this isn't how it works. I think it was Jack3 that said
"It would be easy to walk across a bed of hot coals if we knew our W's were waiting on the other side."You need to be able to do this without the guarantee. You need to do it for YOU.
Update...
W and I didn't talk on Thursday. She had told me the night before that she was going to go to her sister's to have a girl night with her sis and her 2 cousins. I didn't make any attempt to contact her. I did talk to SS who was a christian rock concert with his grandpa.
W sent me an email today to tell me that she had decided that she was going to go to the talent show at her school tonight for her glee club. I guess this was in response to me telling her on Wednesday night to let me know if she and SS wanted to go to dinner and a movie tonight.
She also asked me what time I want to leave for the concert tomorrow and if my mom could watch SS.
I responded that i want to leave at about 3 and that my mom could watch SS. I told her that I was working from home today and to 'call me later'. I didn't really think twice about telling her to 'call me later' ... think that it was just more out of habit than anything.
W responds to my email... 'Ok... why do you need me to call you later?'
I was a little irritated by this response.
I responded: 'you don't need to call me'
About 10 minutes later, W called my cell phone. I ignored the call, but called her back about 20 minutes later.
We made small chit chat for about 5 minutes. I told her that I hadn't needed her to call me, that I had just said that out of habit. I was in a good mood. W was tired and not real happy about having to go back to her school tonight. I ended the conversation. W said that we'd talk tomorrow. I said ok.
About an hour later I received a text msg from W.
W: "SS wants to see Pirates. Did u want to take him later?'
Me: "sure. late movie?'
W: "yes. I finish about 8:30ish"
Me: "ok. Call me. I'm going out for a drink at 7"
W: "With who?"
Me: "M and A"
W: "I'll touch base later. Not sure how I will feel about doing something later"
Me: "Ok. Just let me know."
----------
W continues to show that she is curious about who and what I am doing. Wish that she'd just recognize it's bc she loves me and is afraid that she's going to lose me to someone else!!
BITS
Denver
I hate to ask this question of you, Islander, 9, and any others that are going through this knowing that your W is having an ACTIVE A... but how are you dealing with this? Seriously?
I can only speak for myself of course.
The very first step is asking the question. Even with everything that has happened, is happening, do I still want a chance to work on this M?
My answer surprised myself. Before this happened, and anyone asked me if I would want to save my M after knowing my W had an A, I would have SCREAMED NO!!!!
But, my answer is yes.
Well, guess you don’t know until it happens. Of course now that it has, it was nothing like I would have ever guessed anyways. W did not begin the PA until after she left and told me in no uncertain terms “IT’S OVER.” So I do have an understanding of how she is doing this in her own mind. Not that I agree, but I understand.
I also accepted my responsibility in getting us to this spot. Do I accept 100% responsibility, of course not, it takes two. But I had my share of issues. I am not proud of a lot of things I did in our M.
So, then, after you get through these initial questions, and you decide that yes, I do still want to save my M, well, you have to forgive.
Will obsessing over the A and OM
help me save my M, or will it
hurt? We know the answer to that question.
So, we deal with it as best we can. We shift the focus off of her, off of the A, off of OM. We focus on ourselves and what WE can control. Fix OUR problems, since we cannot fix theirs.
Everyone here knows its not easy, but we just keep trying to move forward.
I will end with a very honest statement. I don’t really know if I have aloud myself to fully process the A. IF, my W and I ever do get a chance to work on our M, my guess, is it is something I will be dealing with for a while. I can actually imagine those feelings bubbling to the surface MORE AFTER a possible R than now. I will cross that bridge when/if I get there.
I hate to ask this question of you, Islander, 9, and any others that are going through this knowing that your W is having an ACTIVE A... but how are you dealing with this? Seriously?
I can only speak for myself of course.
The very first step is asking the question. Even with everything that has happened, is happening, do I still want a chance to work on this M?
My answer surprised myself. Before this happened, and anyone asked me if I would want to save my M after knowing my W had an A, I would have SCREAMED NO!!!!
But, my answer is yes.
Well, guess you don’t know until it happens.
I was VERY surprised with my answer too CS. If someone would have asked me 1 year ago how I would respond to an A by W, I would have answered 'divorce!' in a heartbeat. But your last sentence is SO true. And it is something that I don't think anyone can understand unless and until they go through it.
Of course now that it has, it was nothing like I would have ever guessed anyways. W did not begin the PA until after she left and told me in no uncertain terms “IT’S OVER.”
Exactly the same as in my sitch.
So I do have an understanding of how she is doing this in her own mind. Not that I agree, but I understand.
I also accepted my responsibility in getting us to this spot. Do I accept 100% responsibility, of course not, it takes two. But I had my share of issues. I am not proud of a lot of things I did in our M.
I think that when we have something like this happen, we don't know how we will respond until it happens or until we find out. And THEN, we have to look at the circumstances in which it occurred and our role in causing it. Your words above could have been written by me as to how I have been able to accept the A in my sitch.
So, then, after you get through these initial questions, and you decide that yes, I do still want to save my M, well, you have to forgive.
Yep. I guess that I am just struggling with the possibility of having to go through that again... and if everything that has happened since the initial A changes my ability to forgive... BUT, I am dealing with a lot of 'ifs' right now bc W has not resumed PA with OM at this point. I guess I should let it go and cross that bridge if and when I have to.
Will obsessing over the A and OM help me save my M, or will it hurt? We know the answer to that question.
So, we deal with it as best we can. We shift the focus off of her, off of the A, off of OM. We focus on ourselves and what WE can control. Fix OUR problems, since we cannot fix theirs.
Everyone here knows its not easy, but we just keep trying to move forward.
That WILL be very difficult for me. Hell, it already is, and I'm just asking 'if' it happens.
I will end with a very honest statement. I don’t really know if I have aloud myself to fully process the A. IF, my W and I ever do get a chance to work on our M, my guess, is it is something I will be dealing with for a while. I can actually imagine those feelings bubbling to the surface MORE AFTER a possible R than now. I will cross that bridge when/if I get there.
That is an honest statement CS. And it is very true. Even when it looked like W and I were well on our way to reconciling, I knew that I still had plenty to deal with concerning the A. And yes, it is something that will probably boil to the surface if R happens.
BUT, we both need to know that IF we want our M's to work, that WHAT happened during S cannot be something that we hold over our W's head's. If we are to truly forgive, then we must move past it.
Thanks for your honest answer CS. I have a better understanding now of just how similar our situations are. Appreciated man.
BITS
Denver
Journaling...
I asked myself this multipart question this afternoon:
1. Do I believe that if I continue the fight and continue to wait this out that my W will ultimately come back to me?
2. If so, how long am I willing to fight and to wait?
3. If so, am I willing to do so even if that means that W may resume A with OM during that time?
My answers:
1. Yes.
2. Indefinitely
3. I don't know.
I'm sorry, but am I the only one that doesn't think that this is healthy?
Indefinitely? And not sure, even if she continues to forever CHEAT on you?
That's not "standing," that's CO-DEPENDENCE and FEAR, in my opinion.
Starsky
Denver:
I want to answer you about this honestly. Yet I know 25 is out there lurkig and fear another 2x4 barrage; still healing from last ones. ( You know Im kidding 25, dont know how you are able to put all the time into your thoughtful replies)
Anyway, enough stalling. Im with Country, If you would have asked me earlier in the year,I would have said, NO WAY,NO HOW, there is no chance. When I found out , I told her things that were awful and that I wanted her to change her name back and not have my name as she has soiled it etc... So self righteous and I did feel that way.
I am shocked how I am willing to forgive her but as for taking her back, the longer it goes, the less likely that I will be able to accept. I have an overactive mind and despite my best efforts, get visuals of them together. It has gotten WAAAAAAY better, but it still happens from time to time; especially if Im watching a tv show where intimacy happens, I get a flash of it and it does bother me.
To be real honest, I think I could forgive but the proof would have to be in the pudding. If we ever made love again, what would I see. Hopefully I could look into her eyes and just see love. Its something that I would have to cross IF ever that happens again.
Im trying to convince myself that she is not well and making poor decisions.
Im not sure if this helped you at all Denver. In some ways I feel we are similar in that we have difficulty letting things go but again, Its getting better every day.
I am being totally honest on that to.
Okay 25, swing away.
9
especially if Im watching a tv show where intimacy happens, I get a flash of it and it does bother me.
That bothers me too.
Im trying to convince myself that she is not well and making poor decisions.
From what I know about your sitch 9, I think that there is a lot of truth to what you are trying to convince yourself of. And there is no doubt that she's making poor choices. Your W is a human being and makes mistakes like all of us. That is part of how I decided that I would be willing to figure out how to move past what has happened and forgive my W. That and everything that caused my W to leave me in the first place, i.e., my role in causing all of this.
Im not sure if this helped you at all Denver. In some ways I feel we are similar in that we have difficulty letting things go but again,
I think that it is pretty normal. Like I said in an earlier post... it is easier to forgive and let go of what HAS happened as opposed to what IS happening. If that makes sense. That is why I struggle with the possibility of a renewed A.
Update...
W texted me a little bit later after the last one from my last update.
W: "Ok. We will need dinner still and a drink by then. ???"
Me: "LOL! sure."
W: "Almost poured one now but probably shouldn't. Lame!"
Me: "Why not? Just 1? Chew lots of gum! :-) "
W: "Don't want kids to smell it."
I went and met a couple of friends for a drink. I hung out with them for about 90 minutes.
W called me at about 8:30. We talked about where we were going to go see the movie. SS asked me if I would go pick up a friend of his who wanted to go to the movie with us. W and SS were coming from opposite direction, so I agreed to go pick up SS's buddy.
W and I had a drink at the theater before the movie. Conversation was fine. Like 2 friends basically. But no weirdness, which I suppose is good.
W and I sat next to each other during the movie. SS and his friend sat in a different aisle.
I made no attempt to make any kind of physical contact with W during movie. (no hand holding etc)... and neither did W.
I walked W, SS and his friend out to W's car after the movie. I told them good bye and walked to my car. As I did so, I pretended to get on my phone for a conversation. I got into my car and drove away... in a different direction than W.
About 5 minutes after I left the parking lot, W called my cell phone. W told me that she just wanted to call to let me know that she saw I was on my phone before I even got to the car. I told her that I was checking a voice mail. W asked who would leave a voice mail at midnight. I told her that it was a friend of mine. W then asked me if I was meeting this friend for a drink. I told her that I wasn't. That I was going home and going to bed.
My pretending to get on my phone and drive home in a different direction was a little experiment that I had come up with while watching the movie. W responded exactly as I thought that she would. Interesting.
BITS
Denver
Hi Guys,
I've been reading along off and on, interested in your words and wanted to share something my therapist said regarding our forgiveness of affairs. We all say that if it happened to us we would head straight for divorce and yet many of us don't follow through. My therapist said that this is because our original comment is a 'head' comment and when it is OUR spouse involved our heart is involved and therefore our decisions are more emotional. That is why outsiders are often quick to tell us to move on.
Cas
WOW DENVER, your wife is watching your every move. That is a good sign. Glad you had a decent time at the movies. I can understand how your thoughts would go to holding her hand but Im glad you didnt.
Well tonightsthe big night for you man. Keep it LIGHT as you can and enjoy the show. Turn the lyrics around,
"With or without you" Make it I CAN live , WITH or WITHOUT you cause you know if you have to , you most certainly CAN.
The NEW Denver is a great catch that any woman would be lucky to haul in.
Have a great time Denver!!!!!!!!
9
Have a great time tonight Denver! You'll have to tell us tomorrow how it was.
My pretending to get on my phone and drive home in a different direction was a little experiment that I had come up with while watching the movie. W responded exactly as I thought that she would. Interesting.
BITS
Denver
And so did you.
Still way too much.Starsky
"You always experience the consequences of your acts.
If your acts are right, you'll get good consequences.
If not, you will suffer for it.
Right or wrong it is in your hands.
But at the end, all the acts sum up as your life"
My friend sent this to me and it seems to sum up what I want to say to you right now Denver.
I think it is also a good idea to consider what Starsky said.
You know I always say this is a process. And it requires constant monitoring and correction.
You must always be mindful of what your choices are and why YOU choose them.
If you choose them FOR or BECAUSE of something someone else (your W) is or is not doing
Or what they MIGHT do,
You will eventually get stuck because of your fear
and you will be DEPENDENT on someone else for your worth and happiness.
What you do. DO for YOU.
What you choose. CHOOSE for YOU.
OM or no OM. Your W likes you today more or she doesn't.
None of that means sh!t to a man who knows himself and lives his life that way.
So stand? Until YOU are done.
That is not indefinitely Denver.
Gritter & Starsky - Maybe 'indefinitely' was a poor choice of words. I guess it describes how I feel about fighting through this at this moment. What is 'right' for ME may change in a day, a week, a month, or a year... who knows?
For 37+ years I lived my life very selfishly. I'm trying to change that. But even though, I will never live my life FOR someone else. I don't want that... and, frankly, I'm simply not capable of it.
EVERY decision that I have made throughout my situation has been based upon what I feel is right for ME.
I was out with a few of my best friends last weekend. Three guys that have known me since 3rd grade... for 30 years. They have always known that I would be the guy that would be single the longest, which I was. They've always known that I was the guy who was most likely to have marital problems if I did get M'd... I was.
All three of these guys told me, in one on one conversations, how much they've noticed I've changed since W left. One of them told me that he is really impressed with how 'committed' I have been to my M and to my W.
These comments made me feel really good about myself and the progress that I have made.
I'm also mindful that there is a fine line between doing what is right for me and what is unhealthy.
Thanks guys.
BITS
Denver
Hi Guys,
I've been reading along off and on, interested in your words and wanted to share something my therapist said regarding our forgiveness of affairs. We all say that if it happened to us we would head straight for divorce and yet many of us don't follow through. My therapist said that this is because our original comment is a 'head' comment and when it is OUR spouse involved our heart is involved and therefore our decisions are more emotional. That is why outsiders are often quick to tell us to move on.
Cas
I think that this is the absolute truth Cas. Thanks for sharing.
Denver
I echo that sentiment. I used to confide in a neighbor of mine. She was NOT pro-div but nor did she seem to suggest anything other than ultimatums to my h...
TIME PASSED and h and i reconciled. We went to retrovaille a year into pieceing and it felt as if we finally had made our way back to a restored marriage. One of the events that I felt SO moved by, was h admitting a lot more than I thought he ever would and he was crying and so remorseful about the damage done to his R's with the d's, and I felt like a real breakthrough happened.
I shared that with my neighbor. Mind you, I have seen my h cry maybe 3 times in 32 years...
She said "I hope you told him it WAS his fault and he has A LOT OF WORK TO DO BUT YOU TRIED TO WARN HIM AND BLAH BLAH BLAH"
I couldn't believe it. H had said everything I could possibly hope for, WHILE crying hard, and I forgave him. But all she wanted to do was have me kick him when he was down.
I never saw her in the same light afterwards.
Yep. People who are not going through this, or have not gone through it in the past, simply don't get it.
Denver I have faith in you that you know the difference between being a doormatt and standing up for your marriage.
You want to right some of the wrongs you feel that you did. I cant possibly know the extent of them, but I do believe that sometimes, the LBS beats himself up maybe a little too much. Yes take ownership of your faults, just make sure they are the right ones.
I have a very good friend that walked away from her husband, He was emotionally abusive and may have even abused her physically a little, ie) pushed her . I dont know for sure. When she left him and is now with another good male friend of mine. The LBS thought for sure that his wife would eventaually come back. This was over 7 years ago.
Incidently, the WAS is really no happier than she was before. She traded one set of problems for another and is much more finacially strapped.
My point, ONLY you know when to day ENOUGH is ENOUGH and only you will be able to determine how you will treat your wife during this entire spiel.
I have faith in you Denver, you are not a doormatt.
9
To answer your question about OPs our WAS have, I would say that forgiveness happens.
I'm not forgiving as a reason to clear the way to R. I am forgiving to allow myself to move on.
I am being nice to my W not because I want to R. I'm being nice to my W because a) we will be in each other's lives for the time that we both remain living, and b) I don't have the energy to focus on her or the M any more.
I won't compete with an OM for my W. I won't compete against what my W sees for her future. I am not trying to figure out what my W sees for her future so that I can figure out how I can place myself in that future.
People will see I still have moments of weakness. Moments of trying to analyze. They are more and more spread apart by times of complete disinterest.
How I dealt with it? I was horrible. As much as a month ago (the video incident), I was still emotionally messed up, even though I was better. After that, I was done. I needed it so that I could have a reason to move on. Now that I've made that decision, it's actually not that difficult any more. There's nothing to deal with. Seriously...
Update....
So today was the big U2 concert. I picked W up at 3:30 and we headed downtown. We met one of my best friends and his W who have become friends with W as well. This couple has had numerous marital issues over the past several years as well.
We ate, had drinks and then headed to Investco Field. We arrived about an hour and a half before the concert.
W, friends and I all had multiple drinks before the concert.
W and I's seats were not located next to our friends' seats.
We had a great time. The concert was fantastic. One of the top 4 shows that I've ever seen.
I treated W as good friend who I was with for the day.
W was kind and loving at times, and at others, she was cold and distant. It is really hard to explain her demeanor towards me. It seemed as if I was instigating conversation, she was distant and tried to maintain a 'wall' between us. If I let her instigate conversation, it was different... she seemed very normal with me.
I was genuinely in a great mood for the majority of the day and night... even when W was not being overly nice to me. I just brushed it off and kept thinking to myself, 'water off a duck's back'.
W made an interesting comment at one point between the opening act and U2 when we were at the bar. I can't remember the exact context of how the comment came up, but it is worth journaling about here. And I made a point to remember W's exact words:
W said to me, "I'm have so much anger towards you that if I could get you in a room and beat the sh!t out of you for a couple of days, I could probably get it out of my system"
I responded, in a joking way bc that is what the context of the conversation was, "well, let's schedule it bc I am fine with that".
W said, "We don't need to schedule it. I'm just going to abuse you for a while."
None of this was said in a serious convo, but I really think that there was some truth behind W's statements.
-----
After the show, W and I met up with our friends again at a bar. We drank some more. I was in a super social mood and was initiating conversations with different people in the bar... both male and females. I was including W and friends, so it wasn't an obvious attempt to make W jealous or anything like that.
W and i took a cab out to where we live. Cab dropped W off first and then me.
On the ride home, W began R talk.
W told me that she was still very angry with me. That she didn't know if she was capable of ever forgiving me for how I had been during our R/M. That I was never a 'father' to SS. That he wouldn't be like he is had I been better. That she regrets having not left me much, much sooner. How a couple of her girlfriends who are also single moms had met men who took their kids in as 'their own' but how she had met me and it had always been 'my way or the highway'. That I had always told her how lucky she was that I was willing to accept her even though she had a child.
For the most part, all of that is true, and I cannot blame her for feeling that way.
When I met W, I simply didn't know what I was getting myself into and didn't know what it meant to get into a R with a woman who had a child. That is my excuse, but it does not diminish how it made W feel.
W told me that she is angry that now I finally seem to get it after 8 years. that she had always loved me and had done everything that she could to make our R work... and now she knows that she did that at the expense of her son's best interest. She told me that her family had always been on her case for staying with me despite this... and now, they are on her to stay with me bc I have changed. She admitted to being very angry with me for this.
I listened and validated EVERYTHING that W said. All I could do was admit that W had a valid reason to feel every way that she does. And I meant it.
I reiterated much, if not all, of everything that I have told W in the past 3 months. That I was an idiot for not realizing what I had, what I was doing, and what I needed to do to create a happy family for all of us.
I teared up when W told me that SS would not be like he is had I been different with him. And she was brutally honest with me. She told me that I never played with him, never took him out to play catch, got annoyed with his behavior, and always pointed out when he left a mess showing evidence of his presence.
Much of this is true in the early part of my R with W... but it did get better as the years past. W, however, remembers only the bad. I guess that I can't blame her.
Again, all I could do was admit my shortcomings, validate how W feels, and reiterate what I have realized since she left me.
There was not arguing or fighting. It was W talking and me listening mostly.
By the time we got to W's house, everything was fine. Silent, but fine. W told me to text her when I got home so that she knew that I was home safely.
I texted W when I got home that I was there and safe.
W texted back: "Ok. Goodnight. Glad you are safe. I will call you in the morning."
I did not respond.
A few minutes later, W texted again: "And I had a good time. Thanks for taking me to the concert."
I responded: "Me too. Thanks for going with me.
"
So that's it.
It was a great night... and a sad night having to hear everything that is causing W to remain angry with me.
BITS
Denver
Thanks for updating us Denver. I'm both happy that you had a great time at the show and saddened that the night ended the way it did. However, as hard as it must have been ending the night that way, realize that your W opened up to you. It's a great sign and something that can be used to build from.
In my sitch, it's too soon to tell, but I don't think I'll be going to the local U2 show. W and I bought the tickets together, and I'm about to write her a plan B letter. Not sure what to do about our tickets, will worry about that later.
W said, "We don't need to schedule it. I'm just going to abuse you for a while."
And so then she did:
On the ride home, W began R talk.
W told me that she was still very angry with me. That she didn't know if she was capable of ever forgiving me for how I had been during our R/M. That I was never a 'father' to SS. That he wouldn't be like he is had I been better. That she regrets having not left me much, much sooner. How a couple of her girlfriends who are also single moms had met men who took their kids in as 'their own' but how she had met me and it had always been 'my way or the highway'. That I had always told her how lucky she was that I was willing to accept her even though she had a child.
For the most part, all of that is true, and I cannot blame her for feeling that way.
When I met W, I simply didn't know what I was getting myself into and didn't know what it meant to get into a R with a woman who had a child. That is my excuse, but it does not diminish how it made W feel.
W told me that she is angry that now I finally seem to get it after 8 years. that she had always loved me and had done everything that she could to make our R work... and now she knows that she did that at the expense of her son's best interest. She told me that her family had always been on her case for staying with me despite this... and now, they are on her to stay with me bc I have changed. She admitted to being very angry with me for this.
She sure knows how to treat someone who takes her on a nice date. I thought it was RUDE, and you should have cut it off by deflecting:
"Look, let's not get into this tonite. We had a great time, and we've been over all of this. Let's just enjoy the rest of the evening." (or something similar)
As I said yesterday, Denver, this self-flagellation really concerns me. No matter what your previous "sins" were, this simply isn't healthy for YOU, nor attractive to HER, in my opinion.
Starsky
Thanks for updating us Denver. I'm both happy that you had a great time at the show and saddened that the night ended the way it did. However, as hard as it must have been ending the night that way, realize that your W opened up to you. It's a great sign and something that can be used to build from.
Who know LP. I don't think that will be happening as long as W is stuck in thinking that she *can't* forgive me or get over things.
In my sitch, it's too soon to tell, but I don't think I'll be going to the local U2 show. W and I bought the tickets together, and I'm about to write her a plan B letter. Not sure what to do about our tickets, will worry about that later.
Things can change so fast LP. Your sitch could look completely different by then.
BITS
Denver
Denver,
If that synopsis of hers was at least partly accurate (and you seem to concede that it is) then I think her talk was very cathartic for her, and that you played it 100% perfectly.
When it comes to children, I am a bit of a maternal bear. I would NOT marry or even date a man who wasn't fully involved with my children. It's a requirement. And a dealbreaker. If you mistreated my kid, we'd be done. THE END.
IMO, You're damn lucky she cares enough for you to want to forgive you for treating SS like an inconvenience at best, and an annoyance otherwise. (Although I would have said never to marry a man who isn't great with your kids & for that, she is responsible and for that she feels guilt.)
There is good news though. She is blowing off steam and you are redirecting it b/c you're owning your issues and you are changing as a man/husband/stepfather.
That's a big deal. I'm glad to hear it and would encourage you to see this as a major breakthrough.
Even so, you have to let her steer the ship for now (so just stay on course). I had no idea that she was harboring these feelings and that there was some truth to them. This explains a great deal. Regardless, going forward she can't keep up the blame game and you TWO will have to get him the help he needs without fighting each other. Be a united team.
Yes this was a breakthrough. She wants to believe in you, whereas before she wanted the opposite so she could be "right". If she ends up trusting that you really have changed, and your r with ss improves, I think you'll make it back.
Well done.
Hi Denver, I have read most of your threads now, just the last few pages to catch up on but just wanted to say, your point 8 on the first page of this thread is fab, so I have copied it into my phone to read over and over.
Will post again when I have caught up with the latest, keep the good work going
Denver, just caught up with the last few pages, and agree with the comments made, look at the convo as a positive, you are showing your w the new u, someone people would want to be around, including your w. As difficult as things were to hear its good that she has got them out, esp to u and not her friends.
So, you took her sweet, wonderful, brilliant kid and turned him into a demon by pointing out that he made messes? Good thing that kid doesn't have to take responsibility for who he is or what he does. That would really warp him.
Denver:
I know you are expecting the pull back, so what are you going to do about it? Hopefully nothing and just keep doing what you are doing. I dont think its wise to ellicit a response from what she said. You validated, you understood. The ball is in her court and let her play the next move. You are doing so well. I know you have your insecurities about OM, but dont go looking for trouble. She went to the concert with you, is thinking about the R, now just play it cool.
Great stuff Denver.
9
I would think at some level she KNOWS SS is a problem child. And he needs help. The way to handle him is to start with "getting him help" and taking an expert's advice.
SHE is his bio parent...that's a load to bear I guess. But blaming you for damaging him, NOT fair. Blaming you for real things that you concede (like not really being loving to him, which seems to be true, according to you) you can own THAT. But don't own "HIM" in total. He's damaged goods and was when you met him.
Here's to hoping that changes. I see hopeful signs abounding.
Cheers!
Thanks for the support GAL.
9 - I think that you are right. I just need to play it cool for the time being. She is thinking about the R and she is communicating her anger to me. I agree that those are good things.
BITS
Denver
I just want to comment on what Lotus and 25 have said.
Obviously, you are not solely responsible for all of SS issues.
I bet deep down your W knows this as well. She is still angry with you, so these types of things are said out of anger.
You have said that you would do things differently with SS if you could do it over again. So own those parts, work on fixing them, at the same time understanding you didn’t single handedly ruin his life, and that you cannot take everything your W says right now literally.
I think there is a danger when someone exaggerates our faults and tells them to us. It can be a natural reaction to get defensive because the exaggerated accusations are so absurd. But I think you did a good job in owning the underline things that ARE valid points, and letting the rest go.
If that synopsis of hers was at least partly accurate (and you seem to concede that it is) then I think her talk was very cathartic for her, and that you played it 100% perfectly.
Well, I hope so. There is truth to W's synopsis. Not 100% accurate, and definitely too much blame pointed in my direction, but there is truth to it. I hope that her talk was cathartic. I think that it is good that she is telling me and, like 9 pointed out, it shows that she is thinking about our R.
My biggest concern is that she has said that she doesn't know if she can get over this anger that she still has towards me.
IMO, You're damn lucky she cares enough for you to want to forgive you for treating SS like an inconvenience at best, and an annoyance otherwise. (Although I would have said never to marry a man who isn't great with your kids & for that, she is responsible and for that she feels guilt.)
There is good news though. She is blowing off steam and you are redirecting it b/c you're owning your issues and you are changing as a man/husband/stepfather.
That's a big deal. I'm glad to hear it and would encourage you to see this as a major breakthrough.
I do think that I'm lucky that she is trying to figure out if she can forgive me. But I also think that she knows that there have been A LOT of positives that I have brought to SS's life, as well as her's. Certainly their lifestyle is much better with me than without me. But, as W likes to point out, it is not about money for her. So again... I don't really get much credit for being a good provider here.
I guess that's what frustrates me the most right now... I own the bad and am doing my damnedest to 180 those things... but I don't ever get credit for the good things that have been there. I mean, my W did fall in love with me, she did move in with me, she did marry me... there had to be some good, right?!
The anger is just what stands out right now. Hopefully W can forgive me and we can start over.
Even so, you have to let her steer the ship for now (so just stay on course). I had no idea that she was harboring these feelings and that there was some truth to them. This explains a great deal. Regardless, going forward she can't keep up the blame game and you TWO will have to get him the help he needs without fighting each other. Be a united team.
[b]
Yes this was a breakthrough. She wants to believe in you, whereas before she wanted the opposite so she could be "right". If she ends up trusting that you really have changed, and your r with ss improves, I think you'll make it back.
Well done.
Thanks 25. You think that it was a breakthrough?! wow... I really, really hope so. I'm prepared for a pullback this week. But I have my trial to keep me busy, so it should be fine.
And yes, W harbors a lot of feelings for many things that I did and said during the first 5 years of our R. I STILL think that I began to work on being better the last couple of years that she and I lived together and did improve. But I think that it was too late for W. She had built up so much resentment that she couldn't recognize or acknowledge my efforts ... which caused me to get angry with her and want to stop trying... which is ultimately what happened.
I would think at some level she KNOWS SS is a problem child. And he needs help. The way to handle him is to start with "getting him help" and taking an expert's advice.
She knows that SS has issues. We have had him in counseling at different times in the past and that has helped some. Maturity has been the biggest help, but then it has led to *different* issues. He is really a great kid. So I think that it is just something that we are going to have to struggle through.
SHE is his bio parent...that's a load to bear I guess. But blaming you for damaging him, NOT fair. Blaming you for real things that you concede (like not really being loving to him, which seems to be true, according to you) you can own THAT. But don't own "HIM" in total. He's damaged goods and was when you met him.
Here's to hoping that changes. I see hopeful signs abounding.
Cheers!
SS has been a HUGE load for my W to bear. This has been something that she has struggled with since I've known her. I think, no, I know, that she wonders why her son is like he is. I know that she has gone through periods of time of blaming herself... for having to work to support the two of them when he was very young. All of this has been very tough on her. No doubt.
I do resent that I get blamed for more than my share though. I DO own parts. When I entered the picture, I wanted to fix things. I wanted to fill the role of being the disciplinarian bc that was something that W has never been very good at. So I was tough on SS when he would screw up or get in trouble at school, or when he was disrespectful to me or W. W sometimes did not agree with some of the things that I did such as yelling, which she felt sometimes went overboard. Maybe it did. I don't know. What I do know is that I am literally about the only person in SS's life who he is afraid to p!ss off. Personally, I think that there is a lot of good in that and will serve us well in the future when he is a 15 or 16 year old. W doesn't see this though. And that is frustrating.
Where W is most definitely correct is that in the first 4 or 5 years of our R, I did not invest much into the positive, loving side of my R with SS. I mean I thought that I was, but in hindsight, I see that I didn't. I was focused on my R with W and probably did see SS as just someone who came along for the ride. It does hurt me to look back on that and see how I could have been a heckuva lot better.
So when W says that SS would not be like he is now if I had done better, that is what she is talking about. I don't think that I agree with her on that bigger point, but there *may* be some truth to it. Who knows?
I have put more of an effort into my R with SS in the past couple of years. W has said that I was better the last year or two that she and SS lived with me. But then it goes back to me not spending a lot of time with them bc of work and my need for a lot of personal alone time to 'unwind'. So she has seen my effort, but thought that it still wasn't enough. Overall, again in hindsight, I agree with her.
One of my 180s since W left has been to improve my R with SS. And I think that I have seen a lot of improvement there.
I still don't think that I am the cause of 'how he is' though. I personally believe that there are many factors that have contributed to it. From biology, to his dad, to me, to W, to W and I's tumultuous R, to being constantly spoiled by family... there is just too much to point to one thing.
AND THEN, you throw in my D when she visits us 2 or 3 times per year and how she and SS vie for my attention, and it really can get dicey! SS and D love each other, but they argue a lot when she is hear. It gets really stressful.
Thanks 25! I hope that you are right about the hopeful signs!!
BITS
Denver
agree CS,
just as "validating" their marital revisions can be good OR bad, but arguing can be worse, it's a fine shifting line at times. We all walk it.
She's wrong to blame Denver for SSs behavior BUT Denver says he could have done better.
Let's take that at face value. It's a big admission when it's about a child w/problems. So Denver's going to work on it b/c it IS important. I dont think she really believes it's all him but if she thinks it's all her, she may lash out b/c DANG that is too much for a mom to carry if she's a caring woman.
Best thing is what he said, like "If I had it to do over, I'd do a lot of things differently" which is NOT the same as owning up to ALL of it.
And furthermore, she'll have to allow Denver a more active role in discipline.
I don't know if the reason you never did before, was bc she said not to, or you abdicated. It happens a lot with step kids. But if this kid's "real" dad isn't around, then someone has to be the dad. So,[b] if you two reconcile you need to come up with a "from this day forward" approach and forget the blame game of how SS got there. [/b]
The biggest difference between MWD's DBing, and more traditional therapy or counselling is that DBing is solution based, which means we don't keep staring at our navels and thinking about how our past, or how our childhoods did this and that, and our parents are to blame, and we're emotionally damaged and can't fix it ourselves and blah blah blah....instead, it's WHAT WORKS NOW??
Same thing for the whole new m really. NO more score cards, etc. Moving forward...do what works, avoid what doesn't.
I just want to comment on what Lotus and 25 have said.
Obviously, you are not solely responsible for all of SS issues.
I bet deep down your W knows this as well. She is still angry with you, so these types of things are said out of anger.
You have said that you would do things differently with SS if you could do it over again. So own those parts, work on fixing them, at the same time understanding you didn’t single handedly ruin his life, and that you cannot take everything your W says right now literally.
I think there is a danger when someone exaggerates our faults and tells them to us. It can be a natural reaction to get defensive because the exaggerated accusations are so absurd. But I think you did a good job in owning the underline things that ARE valid points, and letting the rest go.
Thanks Country.
Lotus - I understand the frustration. As with anything, no one side to W and I's story is 100% accurate. I wasn't always the best H or step-father... but I also wasn't the worst. Perception is reality though! And I'm dealing with W's perception of things. If she can allow herself to forgive me and start over, I really believe that I can be better and that she is capable of seeing that... in fact, I think that she has been seeing it in the past several months... which is why I'm still in the fight.
----------
Update....
I hung out with SS yesterday. He and I finished his science project.
W texted me later in the afternoon to see if I wanted to take SS to a movie and go to dinner. I asked SS if he wanted to do that and he, of course, said yes. I told him that he had to finish his work and then we could go. He agreed and did what he needed to do.
SS and I met W at movie theater. W had picked up some candy at a convenience store, so we had a little fun smuggling it into the theater.
There were very few people in the theater. SS wanted to sit a few rows behind W and I ... after about 10 minutes though, he decided he wanted to sit with us. It was interesting, when he moved up to our row, he could have sat next to W. Instead, he walked past the empty seat next to her and chose to sit next to me.
Unfortunately, I think that W and SS's R is strained right now. I'm not exactly sure why either. There has been nothing that I can point to that would be an obvious cause.
I also think that SS and I's R has really, really improved over the past 6 months.
I think that W sees both part of this. One part is good, but the other part is bad. I wonder how this is playing in her mind.
We saw Thor, great by the way, and then met her mom and step dad for dinner.
W was much more friendly with me than she has been in a few weeks. I think that she is trying. I really do. Even on Friday and Saturday, I could see her really trying to be nice to me... but could also see that anger bubbling under the surface.
Maybe her talk with me on the way home on Saturday night was helpful.
I am ready for a bit of a pull back this week. Think that I will go a couple of days without initiating any contact with W.
I have my trial this week so I will be leaving town tomorrow morning. I will definitely be happy when this week is behind me.
BITS
Denver
W said, "We don't need to schedule it. I'm just going to abuse you for a while."
And so then she did:
On the ride home, W began R talk.
W told me that she was still very angry with me. That she didn't know if she was capable of ever forgiving me for how I had been during our R/M. That I was never a 'father' to SS. That he wouldn't be like he is had I been better. That she regrets having not left me much, much sooner. How a couple of her girlfriends who are also single moms had met men who took their kids in as 'their own' but how she had met me and it had always been 'my way or the highway'. That I had always told her how lucky she was that I was willing to accept her even though she had a child.
For the most part, all of that is true, and I cannot blame her for feeling that way.
When I met W, I simply didn't know what I was getting myself into and didn't know what it meant to get into a R with a woman who had a child. That is my excuse, but it does not diminish how it made W feel.
W told me that she is angry that now I finally seem to get it after 8 years. that she had always loved me and had done everything that she could to make our R work... and now she knows that she did that at the expense of her son's best interest. She told me that her family had always been on her case for staying with me despite this... and now, they are on her to stay with me bc I have changed. She admitted to being very angry with me for this.
She sure knows how to treat someone who takes her on a nice date. I thought it was RUDE, and you should have cut it off by deflecting:
"Look, let's not get into this tonite. We had a great time, and we've been over all of this. Let's just enjoy the rest of the evening." (or something similar)
As I said yesterday, Denver, this self-flagellation really concerns me. No matter what your previous "sins" were, this simply isn't healthy for YOU, nor attractive to HER, in my opinion.
Starsky
I hear you Starsky. Obviously this kind of stuff can't go on forever. Any reconciliation would never work under those circumstances. But I sense that this is something that my W needs to get out of her system before she can feel good about forgiving me. It's like, if she forgives me and comes back to me, it's like nothing ever happened. Like all of the reasons that she left me wouldn't matter. That here she is forgiving me for the way that I treated her for billionth time. I get the sense that she needs to go through this. Maybe I'm wrong and she is just taking advantage of the situation, but I don't think so.
Anyway, I'm willing to give it some more time under these circumstances. Like I said in an earlier post, I felt that she was better, more at ease with me, on Sunday night after she had cut loose on me the night before.
We'll see.
Thanks man.
BITS
Denver
She sure knows how to treat someone who takes her on a nice date. I thought it was RUDE, and you should have cut it off by deflecting:
"Look, let's not get into this tonite. We had a great time, and we've been over all of this. Let's just enjoy the rest of the evening." (or something similar)
As I said yesterday, Denver, this self-flagellation really concerns me. No matter what your previous "sins" were, this simply isn't healthy for YOU, nor attractive to HER, in my opinion.
Starsky
I so agree with Starsky on this. An old poster on here use to get and give some of the sagest advice. One thing I remember that really stands out to me is the attractiveness.
SHE knows you are changing, SHE sees the change, but how YOU react is what is going to make or break this. My advice is to picture yourself as a new piece of sheet rock. That old $h!t got tore down and now you got yourself a new piece. She questions it and now she's gonna test it. She's going to throw everything at it, EVERYTHING. She wants to punch a hole through you.
So how do you measure up? Well, first you should like the new you for one. Above all LOVE and forgive YOU. Second, be ready for her to try and punch holes in you. She's going to swing at you a lot. Now you can just sit there and keep taking it and "enduring" or you could just stand up for yourself. I mean she WANTS you to stand up to her, not in an A-hole kind of way, but in a way that makes her know she can trust you.
The way Starsky put the deflection is great, and there are SO MANY ways that you can be kind, but show yourself and her that you won't be treated badly. NO ONE deserves to be treated poorly. You don't owe it to her to let her treat you as poorly as you did her or your marriage. What she needs to see is strength and that your changes are going to last for YOU. It's a test.
Show her that you will be there, but only if she meets you half way.
Hold on to your nuts man, because your not a man without em.
Hold on to your nuts man, because your not a man without em.
lol! I have to remember this one!
I think the way we handle this needs to be true to ourselves. The way you decide to stand Denver, should be how you feel most comfortable doing it. If it's not, it will come out as fake, or even worse, taken the wrong way.
I remember this quote by dbmod:
Denver -- I have not forgotten this and you have to be careful with a lot of the 'man up' advice you are getting--because it will backfire.
I think the way we handle this needs to be true to ourselves. ..... If it's not, it will come out as fake, or even worse, taken the wrong way.
Don't think,
KNOW you have to be true to yourself. This isn't a game. If you don't feel it, your Spouse won't either. You can't hit reset, you can't get an instant "start over". Earn her trust, but DON'T forget making sure you show respect for yourself. You can do both, if you don't believe me, go re-read DR again.
This isn't "Me Man, now back to the cave Woman!". Anything AND everything you do will be tested. YOU have to earn respect, before you are shown respect. "A Woman should have respect for her Husband"
Again, what you might FEEL is the right thing to do...might actually not be. Try things and if it doesn't work, IMMEDIATELY do something different. Don't wait, just DO.
Denver
I think a lot of what is driving you now is fear. And it IS keeping you stuck.
How much longer are you going to punish yourself for sins of your past?
You have owned up to it.
Does it make you feel better when she hits you with the arrows?
Do you need to be punished? By your W?
She is angry with you and she likely will be for a while.
You are validating that anger which is good if you want her to get through the anger.
BUT
I am concerned all these arrows she is flinging your way actually are pinning you down.
You are handing her the arrows and dipping them in poison before she loads them in the bow.
What am I saying?
FORGIVE YOURSELF FIRST
Get YOUR peace back.
Then if she decides to forgive you then she does.
If she doesn't then Denver survives.
Your fear?
If your M doesn't reconcile will you spend the rest of your life pulling arrows out?
Who wants to be with that guy? Including your W Denver.
Your M and forgiveness...don't give that to your W.
That is for YOU.
YOUR choice.
Can you look in the mirror and be honest?
No regrets.
If you have them kill them.
In your choices now, make sure you don't create more of them.
In any case YOU control your own regrets.
If you don't you will walk away a broken man regardless of what your W chooses.
I think the way we handle this needs to be true to ourselves. The way you decide to stand Denver, should be how you feel most comfortable doing it. If it's not, it will come out as fake, or even worse, taken the wrong way.
I remember this quote by dbmod:
Denver -- I have not forgotten this and you have to be careful with a lot of the 'man up' advice you are getting--because it will backfire.
But DB says to "do what works," and frankly, I don't see examples here of this backfiring. Maybe I missed them, and dbmod could point us to examples of where people did this properly (firm, but without being an a-hole), and it BACKFIRED.
Starsky
Wow,
Look at all this advice. ; )
You taking anything from it Denver?
The whole past sins part?
My take on it is to own them, process them, kill them and forgive yourself; but understand that it might take time for others to forgive you, specifically your wife.
Not to hold onto them, wear them on your chest and whip yourself with them.
I used to come home jump on the computer play my mind controller/empath in a virtual world for hours. I'd ignore my wife, my boys and my friends. I was fat, lazy and pathetic. My greatest achievement during that time was written in zero's and ones.
I killed that guy.
I remember, so I won't forget.
Not so I feel crappy about it.
Listen to these guys Denver.
I didn't really get the detachment I needed until one day I decided thet nobody's perfect.
I mean, though I admitted the mistakes and travelled through the feelings of failure, I looked back one day and said to myself: "I wasn't that bad of a husband and father."
I may not have been "terrific", but I wasn't "terrible" either.
In some limited fashion I could even say, I did the best I could with what I had at the time.
Now DBing is about raising that "best" to higher levels, knowing you have no control over the future. But at some point you've got to quit beating yourself up and looking back. Look ahead. What do you see?
I'll just end this by saying, the "detachment I needed", doesn't mean I expect to ever be "totally" and "completely" detached. That's just the way it is, because of history; you can't erase it.