I'm defintiely a "newbie" here but I'm sure my story is not.
A couple of years ago my 42 yr old wife of 18 yrs (then) dropped the ILYBINILWY bomb on me. She had let me know that she wasn't happy some years back but she's always been very melo-dramatic about everything in her life (always "the most incredible" or "the worst" day of her life, etc.) that I couldn't really tell if she was serious or not. When I asked her what she needed from me (many, many times) to make things better between us, she would always say she "didn't know". Tough to change when you don't know what the true problem is.
Anyway, after getting a couple of $600+ cell phone bills in a row about a year ago, I checked into what the deal was. Found out she had been talking/texting with her BFF from highschool who is actually a great guy and was even in our wedding. He had never really been a "threat" in my mind, as I had a very good female friend in HS and understood the concept. When I asked her why she was communicationg with him so much, she said he was going through a very tough time (problems with his own marriage)
and she was trying to help him through it.
We decided to attend counseling to see if we could start finding out what our issues were and try to resolve them. Unfortunately the contact between them grew even more and I discovered she was talking/texting him at least 30-40 times per day. When I confronted her with it in counseling she burst out in tears and admitted she had let her concern for him develop into being "in love" with him but he was not aware of it. She said she was sorry she hurt me, but was not sorry, and never would be, for the love she felt for him. Saw an email of her telling a friend that she had "never felt a greater love, other than for our children, of course".
Ouch.
Over the last couple of years, nearly all of her girlfriends have either separated or divorced. In addition, she has her own marriage counselor (referred by her divorced best friend) that she speaks with regularly but also happens to be divorced herself. (Greeaatt!) Consequently, she doesn't interact with anyone who has a stable, healthy marriage.
She has also become very interested in personal growth and holistic "wellness" (Reiki and Healing Touch) and is an avid reader of Susan Jeffers, and Christel Nani, both of whom are involved in the "wellness" field and both of whom are divorced. She is now certifying as a Healing Touch practioner and is very excited about having a new career. I really am happy for her personal growth and I'm trying to understand all of this but have to admit, it really does seem that she's been "abducted by aliens".
Anyway, marriage counseling (we're now on our third counselor) doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. She has stated to all of the counselors that if we work out, great. If we don't, great. She is only interested in reaching her "highest, best self" whether or not it involves me.
All of the counselors have taken the "I'm okay, you're okay" approach to therapy. No one has told her that her infidelity (emotional affair) was wrong. No one has suggested that she end her relationship with her "boyfriend" or even curtail it. ??? They just say that it does interfere with rebuilding our relationship, but it is her choice whether to continue it or not. Guess what she chooses?
She has repeatedly stated that she feels no sexual attraction to me any longer and has now witheld sex from me for three months and says we will not have any sexual/romantic contact until she is "doing it for the right reasons", which basically means util she feels "in love" with me again, which of course, might never happen, especially since she is still in contact (calls/texts) with her male BFF at least 20 times per day. The counselors have all said that we should not have sex until she's fully ready to do so. So she feels fully justified in being cold, or at best "platonic", toward me. Of course, my needs do not matter, but I am expected to remain faithful (even though she wasn't) and just live in a celibate marriage for however long it takes.
Bottom line is, I am in love with her but am having those feelings squelched at every opportunity. Not sure how much longer I can put up with the "How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days" approach to rebuilding our marriage. She freely admits she "doesn't know" what she wants but her actions indicate she is done with us and I am now in the way of her path to her new "highest, best self" and her new Healing Touch career.
Trying to wait all this out but losing my patience (two years now and no end in sight...). She keeps theatening to separate and I've told her how much I don't want that (damage to kids, odds against staying married, etc.) so she uses it as a threat at every opportunity to get me to accept her inexcusable behavior.
Anyway, any advice would be appreciated, sorry for the "War and Peace" length of this post.
When I asked her what she needed from me (many, many times) to make things better between us, she would always say she "didn't know". Tough to change when you don't know what the true problem is.
That is a real killer that I think so many of us here understand. You feel you're being a stand-up guy by being willing to work on things from the beginning, but the door just keeps getting slammed in your face. Sometimes it does make you wonder if nice guys really do finish last.
I'm in a similar situation myself with the OM. I really want to scream "What am I supposed to do while you figure things out?" but I feel so afraid of making an ultimatum. It's a really cruddy situation to be in --- I really feel for you.
You are truly a strong person for enduring for two years. I can't imagine. Don't forget to take care of yourself, too, though. A lot of the advice here in the forums and the books is centered around focusing on yourself: (a) it's one thing you really can change; (b) it may end up helping her want to come back; (c) critically, also it helps keep you sane and maybe even a little bit happy.
Stay strong and hang in there.
You feel you're being a stand-up guy by being willing to work on things from the beginning, but the door just keeps getting slammed in your face. Sometimes it does make you wonder if nice guys really do finish last.
I'm in a similar situation myself with the OM. I really want to scream "What am I supposed to do while you figure things out?" but I feel so afraid of making an ultimatum. It's a really cruddy situation to be in --- I really feel for you.
You are truly a strong person for enduring for two years. I can't imagine.
You are so right about feeling like nice guys finish last and the "ultimatum or not" decision. It is SUCH a PITA to have to endure all of the BS and turn the other cheek, etc. Especially, when it seems like they are throwing it in your face just to see if they can get away with it. Read your story and feel you are fortunate in that at least she shows some concern over "throwing it all away". My wife is ambivalent and shows no remorse over having strayed from the marriage. However, I feel horrible for you that she decided to separate so quickly, must really have been truly devestating for you. I can only imagine that pain, and I'm NOT looking forward to it.
Thanks for the compliment about me being strong, sure wish I was a strong as I seem. I do need to GAL outside the marriage and can totally identify with your being interested in spending time just being together. That's really all I want as I am in the military and have been away from my family for the better part of six of the last eight years. Spending time together is at the top of my list but for her, seems suffocating and interferes with her "life" she's established while I'm away.
My friends have all said that I really AM a stand-up guy for putting up with all this, but then again, they're friends. What else would they say? I just don't believe in divorce, unless there is true abuse, physical, chemical, emotional or otherwise. Not to mention, that I still love her and even these days see very short glimpses of the woman I married. It's the only thing that gives me hope. This, however, is not an abusive situation.
This is just someone who appears to be going through MLC, and in conjunction, found an old friend who is ALWAYS understanding, supportive, and can be her "soul-mate" without having to deal with her 24/7 and/or hold her accountable when she is acting childish, bitchy, mean or just being unreasonable/intolerant.
I think nice guys probably DO finish last. The more I accommodate her bad behavior, the worse she seems to get. I don't think she truly understands the permanent damage she does with every thoughtless word and cruel action. Or maybe she does and is trying to get me to give up on us so she can leave without feeling guilty about breaking up our marriage.
Anyway, thanks for your support and let me know how things go for you. Fight the good fight, that's all we can do for now.
Did she have any gripes about you? Even in MLC, there's some responsibility from the other person.
ILYBNILWY.....Geee. I really enjoyed hearing that one myself. Next time: Stick a fork in my ear- it will hurt less. I've been reading various threads and decided to just jump in and say hi and sorry about your situation.
Heartbroken...sorry you are here and sorry for your sitch....I just wanted to stop by and tell you that you win my vote for best post title this week!
You said: "The more I accommodate her bad behavior, the worse she seems to get."
This is very true and I hope you take heed to this truth.
Please read these two threads of mine in case I can help you, post on them if you have questions:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1735443&page=1#Post1735443http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1744036&page=1#Post1744036Also, have you read the DB book yet?
DQ
First, to all who have posted, thanks for your support.
Thanks DQ, for the compliment about my title, I've always used humor to try to lighten heavy loads. Maybe just a defense tactic but seems better than jumping on "the sky is falling" bandwagon. I have read DB thoroughly and keep rereading the chapters that are most applicable. Can't say I always am able to follow the advice though, despite my best efforts.
I'll check out your threads, thanks. As an update, (I haven't been on here for a couple of weeks due to computer problems), she has now officially decided to separate, at least that's what she told me in counseling this week. I'm not surprised, although still incredulous as in, "are you REALLY ready to do this to our family?". Very hurtful (know I'm preaching to the choir here) and is going to be devestating to the kids. She hasn't left yet and the kids don't know her decision, although they know we are in counseling.
Question is, how should I treat her before (and IF) she really leaves? I have been trying to be neutral, not overly warm, but not cold/rude either. I feel like cutting off all but the most essential conversation (kids skeds, etc.) so she can see what being separated will be like, but I also don't want to give her additional justification to accelerate the process. I feel the longer she stays in the house, the better it is for our girls.
On the other hand, she seems hesitant to actually leave (understandable) but keeps saying her decision is made. I told her the decision is up to her but she had better be 100%, absolutely SURE she has to do this, otherwise it's not worth the damage she will cause. Not sure she will actually go through with it but then again, wouldn't be surprised if she did just to prove her point.
I have decided to let her go if she wants but am not planning to do anything to help the process. I will simply not stand in the way. I will do what I can to help the kids cope but they are going to be crushed regardless. She, however, will be on her own. This is her decision to leave rather than do the hard work of staying and working on us, so I'm out of it. Tired of trying to convince her to stay and it probably feels to her like I'm just "controlling" her again.
Any suggestions on immediate steps I should/should not take?
ILYBNILWY.....Geee. I really enjoyed hearing that one myself. Next time: Stick a fork in my ear- it will hurt less.
I've always wanted to know what the best response is to ILYBNILWY - thanks for clearing that up for me bearsfan, that's perfect
Heartbroken,
I was in a similar sitch to you for about two months. My W was texting/calling the OM every day. My response was similar to yours: just wait it out and eventually it would go away. Only it didn't. In the end, she left to be with him and she did leave me and the kids behind.
In hindsight, the biggest mistake I made was not confronting her affair early on and setting the proper boundaries. I was an enabler for the affair and the separation. I thought I was doing the right thing by letting her string me along, but the truth was that I made it much, much worse.
Only you know what your W is like and what sort of things are likely to get through to her, but I will say that being firm, setting boundaries (no more talking to the BF when I'm around, you pay your own phone bills, you buy your own clothes, undergarments, perfume, etc.) and not enabling her would have (I believe) shut down the A and had us on the path to reconciliation much quicker. As it is, she is still waffling after spending a sizable chunk of money that I gave her, our family has been ripped apart for going on 6 months, and there is still a lot of uncertainty about what the future hold for us.
No more Mr. Nice Guy!
Heartbroken,
I was in a similar sitch to you for about two months. My W was texting/calling the OM every day. My response was similar to yours: just wait it out and eventually it would go away. Only it didn't. In the end, she left to be with him and she did leave me and the kids behind.
In hindsight, the biggest mistake I made was not confronting her affair early on and setting the proper boundaries. I was an enabler for the affair and the separation. I thought I was doing the right thing by letting her string me along, but the truth was that I made it much, much worse.
Only you know what your W is like and what sort of things are likely to get through to her, but I will say that being firm, setting boundaries (no more talking to the BF when I'm around, you pay your own phone bills, you buy your own clothes, undergarments, perfume, etc.) and not enabling her would have (I believe) shut down the A and had us on the path to reconciliation much quicker. As it is, she is still waffling after spending a sizable chunk of money that I gave her, our family has been ripped apart for going on 6 months, and there is still a lot of uncertainty about what the future hold for us.
No more Mr. Nice Guy!
Portland - Sorry to hear about your sitch, especially deserted you AND the kids, I just don't get why such incredible selfishness. What's left of my heart (small bloody shreds) goes out to you. I can only hope your W will tire of him soon enough and come back to you and your children.
I totally agree with you that I have been an enabler by not being intolerant of her behavior, but will say that I have told her many times that her relationship (3-4 calls + 20-30 texts per day avg) with OM (her male BFF from high school who has his own marital issues) is inappropriate and we will never be able to work on us while she is emotionally involved with him. She says she's sorry it hurts me but she is not willing to cut off that friendship and is not sorry for the love she feels for him as a "friend". (yuh, right!) Fortunately, we live on the East Coast and he lives on the West Coast (where she grew up) so chances of PA are slim/none although past PA while visiting home is likely in my distrustful mind.
This has been going on for about 18 months that I can tell, probably longer than I can prove. I'm in the military assigned away from home but get home every weekend, so total time together is much less than being there every day. If I was there, perhaps the EA might not have developed as deeply, and I'm pretty sure I would have gotten fed up much sooner, but it's not "in my face" every day so I've let it lay, hoping it would die off naturally as many posts here have said EA's do.
But I was wrong, so now, time for something different.
She says she is leaving but hasn't set a timetable or a plan, but knows she'll need to care for the kids during the week. She will likely stay at home during the week and stay with a GF on weekends. I told her if she does separate, she is on her own and I will not assist in any way, money, moving, etc. I do not want to "enable" her bad decision to leave as I have her EA.
We meet with MC again this weekend. He's suggested we work together to negotiate how to separate but I'm not helping plan this escape, it's her idea, not mine. Besides, my opinion hasn't counted thus far. I will, however, refuse things that are unacceptable with whatever plan she comes up with. We'll see how it goes.
Your boundary setting ideas are good and I will be more firm about implementing them. It's time. (better late than never...) NO MORE MR. NICE GUY is right! Tried it, no effect, time for 180.
Hope your WAS comes to her senses soon, my thoughts are with you.
I am so surprised at all the similarities in a lot of the stories that I am reading in the forums, in comparison with my own sitch.
I feel like I am reading about myself when I read your story above, although I don't currently have the OM aspect to deal with, so I feel for you even more
One thing that strikes me, is all the language, actions and issues are very well described in the books and on this iste, including the specific words that our W use on us. I think we need to take some support for ourselves in that fact, and that the solutions they offer may offer some hope to us.
Meaning we need to do the action steps, Act as if, GAL, etc. I am struggling with this part of it, and slipped up again last night, but will get up, dust off and try again.
Keep up the hard work Heartbroken20, your inspirational to me in knowing how hard you have worked so far...
Have
Heartbroken,
I feel for you as well. 180s are definitely the way to go. Find something that works and stick to it. I am definitely a fan our boundaries now. If you can, search out Puppy Dog Tails: he's a DB vet here and an outspoken advocate of exposing As and setting firm boundaries. I wish I had a penny of his advice before my sitch got to where it is now. He usually hangs out in AFWAWs and Smiley Persons threads here in Newcomers. Post a quick hijack there and see if he can give you some advice.
Best of luck to you!
Heartbroken,
I feel for you as well. 180s are definitely the way to go. Find something that works and stick to it. I am definitely a fan our boundaries now. If you can, search out Puppy Dog Tails: he's a DB vet here and an outspoken advocate of exposing As and setting firm boundaries. I wish I had a penny of his advice before my sitch got to where it is now. He usually hangs out in AFWAWs and Smiley Persons threads here in Newcomers. Post a quick hijack there and see if he can give you some advice.
Best of luck to you!
Thanks Portland, appreciate the encouragement. Biggest problem for me is following through on the 180's and determining which ones work! So far I keep running into brick walls. There is such a lack of remorse for any of this on her part that it seems no matter what I do, she could still care less about saving our marriage. So I'm still searching for an effective technique (or the gumption to follow through on some DB techniques fully and consistently). The latter is probably the more accurate statement. Guess I'm probably not good at noticing her changes/reactions either as she seems to still not give a **** about us or breaking up our family.
But I will try to read PBT's posts and absorb their wisdom. Thanks.
Yeah, Puppy is Da Man!
You are right in not wanting to help your W walk out the door. Don't lift a finger to help her leave. She will "string you along while she formulates her plan" is exactly right. It is textbook.
Funny you should say "textbook" as that is what a number of my friends who have gotten divorced say about her actions. Nearly all of her friends are now divorced/separated and she certainly has no lack of "what not to do" or "be sure you do" examples to follow.
So after starting a couple different threads (newbie error) I've decided to return to my original thread so as to stop confusing everyone.
Well it looks like my W's constant dependence on her EA may be starting to wain somewhat. I've stopped monitoring her phone/email so much because it was driving me crazy although it definitely allowed me to see through her smokescreen and get a better handle on when she's lying to me (like MOST of the time). But I also know her heart hasn't come back to me. She may now understand she will never have the relationship she wanted with EA/OM, but therefore she doesn't want ANY relationship right now.
We went to a Harville Hendrix seminar about a month ago and although she went, she really wasn't into it. She said because some couples "fell back in love" during the weekend and she didn't, it means we just need to go ahead and divorce. "Why delay the inevitable?"
Harville's position is that you will ALWAYS be unconciously attracted to the same type of person so it's a waste of time to divorce and think you will find someone "better". You won't. You'll find someone slightly different, but with a whole new set of issues it will take you years to adapt to. His theory is that in your marriage, you have the opportunity to help each other heal each other's emotional wounds. Unless they are healed, you will inevitably e drawn right back to a relationship that will eventually have the same types of problems you have in your current one.
Not sure if he's right on all points but do believe that it's better to work with what you have than to go through all the pain and struggle of breaking up a family and then have to start the process all over again with someone new with no assurance you will be happier in the end.
Anyway, she wants to start the D process (through Collaborative Law) as soon as possible so since I don't want my D13 & D16 to feel I've betrayed them (there's enough betrayal around here already) I think they deserve to know what she has decided and that it is not what I want for all of us.
We plan to tell the girls this weekend using the approach Coach took with Greek and that is to let her explain herself and her reasons for her decision and will step in and correct her immediately if she tries to make it look like a "we" decision. Will wait, then at the end, ask if they have any questions for me. We'll see what happens.
Opened up a separate banking account this week. W opened hers 8 months ago but never told me until I saw a wierd statement when I got the mail one day last month. Nice. Anyway, W was immediately concerned about what money I was going to put in it and, therefore, what money she could put in her own account. She doesn't have very much in hers and I'm not planning on making any big deposits in mine.
Told her if she was going to divorce anyway, had to have my own account to separate out "my" expenses from "family" expenses (meaning basic bills, mortgage and kids needs...but NOT hers) Told her things weren't changing at the moment but needed to be prepared since she was bent on splitting up. Told her needed to make sure things were in order so that kids would not be affected financially.
Working on detaching and envisioning my life after her and setting up my own account felt good. Will need to work out finances, who will pay what, etc., but one step at a time.
Well, I decided to wait on telling our girls until next weekend I can be there for the following week to support them or answer any questions that will inevitably come up after the initial shock.
First reaction from wife was "why do we have to do it your way?" rather than any concern for the girls well being. Not surprising. "I don't like that you get to say when it happens." Calmly let her know that I would not tolerate her telling them without me there.
She finally agreed to wait "but I won't promise that again if you change your mind about next weekend, seems like you're just trying to put it off." Asked her what her rush was, did she have a timeline in motion? "No, we just need to tell them, it won't come as a surprise, trust me." Asked her what she meant by that, did she already say something? "No, but they know I have been unhappy, and see I don't wear my ring any more, and hear us fighting, I'm sure they are expecting it." Maybe but I'm betting it will still crush them when they actually hear it.
Second reaction was "why didn't you tell me sooner because I have been losing sleep worrying about this?" Calmly pointed out that this wasn't about her, it was about making sure I am there for our girls. I didn't tell her earlier as with all the Halloween stuff going on, there was no time to sit and discuss. Told her I had just found out my schedule late Friday, etc., but was really mad at myself for letting her bait me into defending my actions. No more Mr. Nice Guy trying to make things easy on her. Time for her to face reality that it's only the beginning of sleepless nights.
Told her how I would not be doing the talking, that she would explain to them why this is the only option for her. Told her I would only step in if she lied to them or tried to make this a "WE" decision or tried to put words in my mouth about the situation.
Talked about finances a little. Told her I would not be subsidizing her lawyer fees with family money. She said she would use her own income from her main job. Told her she would have to come up with extra from her new part-time business as we need her main job money for the household. She said I would be using family money for my lawyer, why couldn't she? Told her I was being FORCED to use money that should be saved for kids college, etc., due to her actions, but that I was not going to jeopardize their future to help her break up the family. She suggested using only a portion of her income then to pay for her lawyer and what percentage I though was fair. Didn't take THAT bait...asked what percentage SHE thought was fair? "I don't know, I haven't thought about it."
Doubt that, but do believe she hasn't thought through the whole divorce process and all of it's ramifications regarding family, friends, finances, children, grand-children, etc. She's making short-term decisions that have incredibly long-term, wide-ranging effects but can't see them through the fog. Typical WAW syndrome. She doesn't (or more precisely, refuses to) see it that way though. She just wants out.
Later, heard her talking "in code" (all answers but no statements or questions to the other person, as in "yes", "no", "not yet", "Noooo, not exactly...yes THAT!", "we'll chat later about that, okay?", etc.) to one of our daughter's best friend's Mom. She hung up then started texting back and forth for about 10 min.
Afterwards, she left her phone out and I couldn't resist checking out the texts.
Sent:"Thanks for calling, H is being his usual controlling self and now wants to wait until next weekend to tell girls."
Rec'd: "Just keep thinking about your girls, we'll talk more later when you're alone."
Turns out it was to the same Mom. Not surprised but we had specifically agreed NOT to discuss with ANY of our local friends whose kids were friends with ours so as to eliminate the risk of them finding out from someone else. Here she was talking about her decision and when we were going to tell girls with the Mom of one of our daughter's BEST friends!!!
So later, just for fun, I double-checked with her to make sure we were agreed that we would wait to say anything. Yes, agreed. Asked if she had told anyone else locally as we had agreed not to do so because of risk. "What does it matter? The girls aren't going to find out from anyone else." I said it DOES matter because they could, but MORE importantly, we had made an "agreement" NOT to tell any one local. She said a couple of her friends knew we were "having problems" because everyone has some but nothing more. She's been getting advice on lawyers, procedures, etc., from at least one of her separated/divorcing friends (4 of 5 of her local "close" friends are currently divorcing/separated) so I've known that wasn't true.
Just to confirm, threw out three names of our daughter's friend's Moms, including the one she texted, and asked what they knew. "Just that we are "having problems", but not that I've decided to divorce." Asked if anyone knew anything about when we would be telling the girls. "No, no one local knows anything about that, only my Mom and my out-of-state friends." I said okay just wanted to make sure the WE were the ones to tell them, not the gossip-mill.
I know she has been lying to me about so many things over the last couple of years due to her EA, MLC expenditures, and general WAW syndrome but it still floors me when she so blatantly does it with no trace of hesitation.
Detach, detach, detach......
She says she wants to work together using Collaborative Law, which is based on good faith and trust, but I just KNOW she is going to lie to her lawyer about who-knows-what and I am unsure of what exactly to do about it. I sure don't trust a thing that comes out of her mouth these days (other than she is no longer in love with me and wants a divorce) so not sure how I can believe she will negotiate in good faith.
Anyway, she has her initial meeting with her lawyer this week (scheduled it before she found out we were waiting to tell the girls) to discuss how she will pay and everything that will happen (in typical cases). I have to get an appointment with mine as well so I don't get blind-sided.
Man this sucks!
HB20,
Good work; I know that wasn't easy. The catching-them-lying thing is a cheeseless tunnel, as I'm sure you already know.
I was curious as to what her response was to this:
Told her how I would not be doing the talking, that she would explain to them why this is the only option for her. Told her I would only step in if she lied to them or tried to make this a "WE" decision or tried to put words in my mouth about the situation.
Puppy
PDT - Thanks, it wasn't easy for sure and will likely get even more difficult ahead.
She asked if I'd been reading up on how to best approach them so as not to cause more damage because I was angry with her. Told her I had (did not mention it was the Coach Approach I found here) and that I was going to let her say her peace and correct her if necessary but not pile on.
Think she was most worried about me bringing up her EA and that the EA had prevented her from fully committing to our counseling, hence no progress and now divorce route. She obviously doesn't want to look like the bad guy here.
She said she was going to tell them that I had been unhappy in the marriage as well. Told her not to put words in my mouth. Did things need to change, absolutely. Is divorce the way to get them to change the way you want them to be, NIMHO. Is divorce the only option left at this point, absolutely not.
Over all though, she says she knows that the kids will blame her more than me but she feels so justified in her actions, she is willing to risk it. She didn't seem all that concerned that I was going to let her do most/all of the talking. Believe she thinks kids will agree with her decision. Frankly, I think she has no idea how they will really feel about it.
But, undoubtedly, we will have another discussion prior to actually sitting down with them. It will be the day after my birthday, Happy B-Day to me!
I made my first appointment with my lawyer today for next Tuesday. He's the current elected president of he regional association so it would seem he should know what he's doing. He asked about her lawyer, as he knows most of them in the area, and wants to start planning his approach.
Told him that first and foremost, I want what is best for my girls and secondarily, as my wife is the one who is leaving and breaking up the family, that I was not in a purely 50/50 split mode but rather a "fair and reasonable under the circumstances" mode. He said we'll talk about it and see where things stand.
Sucks to start the process formally, but that's the hand I have been dealt, and I will get through it.
Is he a family law attorney? Does he specialize in representing men?
As for your talk with the kids, and this is just my opinion, but I think teenagers are old enough to be told the truth about affairs. I told my S-then-14, in an age-appropriate way ("Mommy has a boyfriend, and it's not right for married people to have boyfriends or girlfriends while they're still married. I'm angry about it, and that's why you have overheard us arguing a lot lately. We're trying to work on it, and I don't want a divorce, but I wanted you to know the truth and I will ALWAYS tell you the truth"), and then I asked him if he had any questions.
Reasonable people differ on that approach, but you CERTAINLY shouldn't tell them you think a divorce is the way to go if you're still willing to work on the problems.
Puppy
Heartbroken, you said: "She says she wants to work together using Collaborative Law, which is based on good faith and trust, but I just KNOW she is going to lie to her lawyer about who-knows-what and I am unsure of what exactly to do about it."
I just wanted to chime in here...I used to work for a collaborative law attorney...just so you understand, neither attorney is going to care about something like this (the who-knows-what issue). This is just something that you and she need to work out between you. It won't really matter to the D process. I just want to point this out because, many people get caught up in the idea that because they are in the moral "right" on a certain issue, that somehow the divorce process will ferret this out and bring them vindication.
Yes, collaborative law is based on truth and trust, but this type of truth (the lying about who-know-what) is not a legal matter, therefore, it will not be of any consequence to your case.
I know that hurts, and you really just hurt that she would lie to you like this...but someday you will get used to this hurt and realize it isn't that big of a deal in the big picture. I don't mean to minimize what you are hurt about, but the reality is that many other things are going to hurt you much more in this process than the little lies she may be telling about this type of thing.
If you talk to you attorney about this lying issue, its going to cost you about $300 per hour to do so. Sure, they will listen with empathy, and they may bring it up in a collaborative meeting (with all parties present) but again...is it worth $300 per hour just to get to see her face when she is called out on a lie like this?
I am really just trying to help you here. What most people need during divorce proceedings is a divorce coach or a good counselor who has done many divorcees. That is where it is appropriate (and cost effective) to bring up your hurt and disappointment that she is lying to you.
If she is lying about property owned, money held, stocks, custody issues (serious ones), then of course the attorneys need to be involved and they will step in and voice their legal opinions. So rest assured that lies that would effect either of you financially will be ferretted out.
DQ
Heartbroken, you said: "She says she wants to work together using Collaborative Law, which is based on good faith and trust, but I just KNOW she is going to lie to her lawyer about who-knows-what and I am unsure of what exactly to do about it."
I just wanted to chime in here...I used to work for a collaborative law attorney...just so you understand, neither attorney is going to care about something like this (the who-knows-what issue). This is just something that you and she need to work out between you. It won't really matter to the D process. I just want to point this out because, many people get caught up in the idea that because they are in the moral "right" on a certain issue, that somehow the divorce process will ferret this out and bring them vindication.
Yes, collaborative law is based on truth and trust, but this type of truth (the lying about who-know-what) is not a legal matter, therefore, it will not be of any consequence to your case.
I know that hurts, and you really just hurt that she would lie to you like this...but someday you will get used to this hurt and realize it isn't that big of a deal in the big picture. I don't mean to minimize what you are hurt about, but the reality is that many other things are going to hurt you much more in this process than the little lies she may be telling about this type of thing.
If you talk to you attorney about this lying issue, its going to cost you about $300 per hour to do so. Sure, they will listen with empathy, and they may bring it up in a collaborative meeting (with all parties present) but again...is it worth $300 per hour just to get to see her face when she is called out on a lie like this?
I am really just trying to help you here. What most people need during divorce proceedings is a divorce coach or a good counselor who has done many divorcees. That is where it is appropriate (and cost effective) to bring up your hurt and disappointment that she is lying to you.
If she is lying about property owned, money held, stocks, custody issues (serious ones), then of course the attorneys need to be involved and they will step in and voice their legal opinions. So rest assured that lies that would effect either of you financially will be ferretted out.
DQ
AMEN.
Hey Puppy - He's a Collaborative Law attorney, specializing in reaching a mutually-agreeable settlement with the least amount of fuss and blood-letting. Don't know if he specailizes in representing men, but as a family man himself, he likely has a good idea of where I am coming from, especially when he finds out about the EA which I have THOROUGHLY documented with email, cell phone and text records.
As for my girls, I think they ARE able to understand an affair (13 & 16) and that they DO know it is NOT something married people should do. Obviously, my W and some counselors (mostly divorced themselves) say we shouldn't adress it directly as it would make her look like the "bad guy" and perhaps permanently damage her relationship with her kids. They feel it is an "adult" thing that the kids just don't need to know about. I think that lets her off the hook too much.
I feel we are ALL responsible, and should be held accountable, for our own actions, whatever they are. That doesn't mean bad-mouthing anyone, but it also does NOT mean we should cover for them either. Her EA is not the only reason she wants a D but it is a PRIME reason why she did not fully invest herself in trying to make our subsequent MC sessions work and make an earnest effort to repair the damage.
I plan on emphasizing that this is what SHE wants, it is not what I want, that I feel it is important to try to work through the many problems that come up in ALL marriages, not just escape through affairs or divorce when things go bad, and that I would still be willing to try to stay together IF she is willing to put her best, HONEST effort into it.
Hey DQ - Understood and your points are well taken.
What I meant by who-knows-what is that I have no idea what lies she will tell her attorney or when all parties are present. I know they won't care a bit about her lying about her EA (which is what I think you thought I was saying) but she has spun such a complicated web that I think when there are things that are "judgement calls" rather than legal clarities, (like who gets which family pet, or exactly how much personal financial support she deserves, for instance) I'm likely to get just a tad more support if they realize she isn't prone to being forthright.
I'm pretty sure when they hear both stories, they will understand pretty well what the situation is and if there is any room to slightly "lean" one way or the other (and there almost always is, the law doesn't spell out clear rulings on each and every little detail of a marriage) they might lean slightly my way, or at least NOT lean slightly her way.
One side note. One reason she wants Collaborative Law is that it does not really require legal "grounds" for divorce. In the view of our northeastern state, being generally unhappy with your spouse is not really considered grounds for divorce. So because she can't file for a good reason (although she has agreed I could easily file on grounds against her) she wants CL. She has had to trump up charges against me thus far to justify her decision in her own mind and I'm not sure what other charges she will trump up when she meets with her attorney.
Having worked for a lawyer, you know that there is considerable expense to an innocent party simply defending against false charges. Even when vindicated, many times the wronged party is not fully reimbursed for their expenditures so her upcoming claims/accusations do concern me.
I do appreciate your input so please tell me if I am off-base or just borrowing trouble.
As for my girls, I think they ARE able to understand an affair (13 & 16) and that they DO know it is NOT something married people should do. Obviously, my W and some counselors (mostly divorced themselves) say we shouldn't adress it directly as it would make her look like the "bad guy" and perhaps permanently damage her relationship with her kids. They feel it is an "adult" thing that the kids just don't need to know about. I think that lets her off the hook too much.
In my experience, this comes down about 40/60, with 40% being in favor of telling older children the truth. Lots of anecdotal stories about "when I was younger, I was glad my parents didn't tell me" being offset by "My parents lied to me, and to this day, years later, I still have a lot of emotional scars" stuff.
I CERTAINLY wouldn't lie to them, if asked a direct question. THAT could be really damaging. With everything that's going on in their little world right now, they need to know that at least ONE parent is telling them the truth.
I also think you need to look at their ages, and the fact that they are forming -- now and in the few years ahead -- most of their opinions and values about how to relate with the opposite sex. I think you want those traits in them to be formed as healthy as possible.
I do think it's possible to "love the sinner, but hate the sin," and to speak the truth, in love, without "running down" the other parent.
Puppy
I concur with Puppy--and I've been there. My 13-year-old D completely figured out that her father left us because he was having an affair, even figured out who it was with. And when she asked, I was honest with her. Her father continues to place 100% of the blame on me and denies to everyone, including D13, that he was/is having an affair. And she resents the heck out of that, doesn't trust him for anything, has a lot of anger but is generally afraid to express it to him because he threatens to "ground" her. And she is afraid that, since he stopped loving me, he could stop loving her--and to her it feels as if he has, because he's so "into" his new family.
But because I was honest, and because she feels she can talk with me about anything and express any emotion, we've had some very positive conversations and remain very close. She doesn't hate her father for this, but she recognizes how much it has negatively affected our lives.
Thanks HM. I'm sure my D's have a good idea of what went (is going?) on and that is not how you are supposed to love and respect your spouse. They definitely notice she tries to get away from me and our home as much as possible. I'm pretty sure they resent it but they have not said so to me. Time will tell...
Journaling:
W told our daughters she wanted a divorce (with me present) last Sunday night. She said she wasn't happy and hadn't been for a long time and that counseling hadn't helped as she hoped it would so she thought it would be best for everyone that we split up and moved on. She told them it had absolutely nothing to do with them and that she loved them very much. She also told them that nothing was going to change for a while, as I am still out of town during the week, and that we would still be together for the holidays, etc. Since she did not make it sound like it was my decision as well, I didn't say anything.
They just sat there in silence for a few minutes and I asked them if they had any questions for us or wanted to say anything but they just shook their heads no. They would not look at her and only glanced at me. Asked them if they had any questions for me and again, shook their heads no. They sat in silence for another five minutes or so and te D16 got up and went to her room. D13 sat for a while longer, not looking at either of us and then got up and went to her own room.
We let them be with it for about 30min and then D16 wanted to know if she could go spend the night at her best freind's house and that it was okay with her friend's mom. Figuring she probably needed to just get away for a while, and spend some time with her friend for support, we both said yes. We both checked on D13 about a 1/2 hr after that and she said she was okay, making it seem like it wasn't that big of a deal.
Their lack of reaction means one of two things. First, they likely have seen it coming and are resigned to it or stuffing their emotions down. Or two, W has been hinting at it (or they've overheard her speaking about it to her friends) so weren't surprised when she finally told them in front of me.
In retrospect, I may have erred by not speaking up and emphasizing the fact that this is not what I want and that I would still like to work things out. I sure hope they know that but wonder if they think I agree with her decision because I didn't specifically say something when we told them.
I later told my D13 that I was very sorry this was happening and that is was not what I wanted. She said she knew and that it was okay. I know she's just trying to make me feel better but it worries me that she's trying to ignore what is happening and that she may explode later.
Have not said the same thing to D16 but I think she knows it more than my D13 does. She already doesn't get along well with my W and this is just another reason to distance from her.
Hope they will both talk with me about it soon but nothing yet.
More Journaling:
My W met with her L last week so I had my 1st mtg with my L this week. Good guy and first professional I've met that seems to "get" what I'm going through. He hopes I won't need his services but knows that it's likely I will based on what he's seen over the last 25 yrs of family law. He's very reasonably priced for a L and seems genuinely interested in making this process as least painful as he can. Because he's a Collaborative Lawyer, his main goal is settlement, not "winning", but he understands the quandry my W has placed me and our family in and will ensure she gets no more than she is entitled to under the law.
I suppose the only "good" news is that the D can be accomplished within 4-5 meetings if everyone cooperates. Which means the typical, long, nasty battles of a typical divorce can be avoided, thereby sparing our girls a good measure of pain.
I'm personally still against the divorce as I feel it is unfounded and our problems are not insurmountable. The pain and damage it will cause in the years to come, is not worth it. But my W is determined and won't rest until she has done it one way or the other.
My inclination is to get it over with and move on. When, and IF, she ever wakes up, she will see what she's lost and deeply regret it. But it will be too late for her. I don't go back to old girlfriends and I don't keep in touch with any of them.
Because she is my daughters' mother, I will obviously need to keep in touch with her but I feel, due to her current interest in "unusual" (to say the least) people and their "mystical" powers, that she will simply become that "eccentric" relative who means well, but everyone knows is not all there and who will be "tolerated" at family gatherings or special events.
Sad, really, as I used to be so proud of her and the fact she was the mother of my daughters. Now I'm actually embarassed by her and try not to look at our friends when she launches into her spiel about their energy fields and how she can tell them exactly what's wrong with them but will help "heal" them if they'd like her to. "God IS working through her", after all.
Sorry if I'm venting a little here but I'm getting to the point of just moving on and cutting her loose. I hate it but can't stop it anyway, she's bound and determined to divorce regardless of the cost, emotionally or financially.
Oh well, time to GAL some more.....