http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2526233&page=12Let the games begin
I'll make it simple:
M only 2 years, wife doubting decision
W totally in love with OM - no PA - OM respects marriage to certain extend & doesn't know she's madly in love but likes her
She is still lying about intensity of feelings, I snooped and know everything
W best friend bad influence and pro D
D around the corner (no lawyer involved yet) to get to be together with OM - but on hold until I get my greencard
Her family doesn't know anything, she is very secretive about everything (awesome family
I hit rock bottom yesterday - hardly can eat, sleep, do anything. Lost a lot of weight.
Trying to GAL and detach and DB right. Therapist appt Monday. Christian MC next week. (just me). DB coach next week.
Anyone expertise on involving family &How to deal with the advantage of information?
I just need some new input in my misery
Thanks
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2526233&page=12Let the games begin
I'll make it simple:
M only 2 years, wife doubting decision
W totally in love with OM - no PA - OM respects marriage to certain extend & doesn't know she's madly in love but likes her
She is still lying about intensity of feelings, I snooped and know everything
W best friend bad influence and pro D
D around the corner (no lawyer involved yet) to get to be together with OM - but on hold until I get my greencard
Her family doesn't know anything, she is very secretive about everything (awesome family
I hit rock bottom yesterday - hardly can eat, sleep, do anything. Lost a lot of weight.
Trying to GAL and detach and DB right. Therapist appt Monday. Christian MC next week. (just me). DB coach next week.
Anyone expertise on involving family &How to deal with the advantage of information?
I just need some new input in my misery
Thanks
Get into good physical conditioning. Star to eat well. Try to lay off or do not consume alcohol or smoke.
I'd be in the gym working towards the best shape of my life. These affairs the hard WHIP of a crack they are can be used for motivation if you can focus on your goals. The gym will be automatic for you after 3 weeks. I'd go every day in those first 3 weeks until I am in the habit.
I'd be eating a good balanced diet full of protein and nutrients.
Also start looking good and doing things specifically for you only. Do things you love to do and feel good about it.
The wife may get off the ride with you, but that's no reason to get down on yourself.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2526233&page=12Let the games begin
I'll make it simple:
M only 2 years, wife doubting decision
W totally in love with OM - no PA - OM respects marriage to certain extend & doesn't know she's madly in love but likes her
She is still lying about intensity of feelings, I snooped and know everything
W best friend bad influence and pro D
D around the corner (no lawyer involved yet) to get to be together with OM - but on hold until I get my greencard
Her family doesn't know anything, she is very secretive about everything (awesome family
I hit rock bottom yesterday - hardly can eat, sleep, do anything. Lost a lot of weight.
Trying to GAL and detach and DB right. Therapist appt Monday. Christian MC next week. (just me). DB coach next week.
Anyone expertise on involving family &How to deal with the advantage of information?
I just need some new input in my misery
Thanks
Stop feeling misery and beat it by getting ahead of it. You will be fine either way getting the wife back with a new level of commitment OR knowing yourself and giving yourself the chance for a much better life than you thought you could before.
Get into good shape. Boxing might not be bad for the confidence. Just get in there and take it seriously.
Do some things outside the house that you really like to do.
Regarding family I want to make them aware so bad. I'm trying to ask myself what my intentions are tho, and what they should be.
I don't want to just plainly get them against W and D.
But I have this urge to make them aware of how much she changed.
I'm not going to do anything yet tho until a therapist or counselor looked over my whole case and gives me a proper advice after analyzing my situation.
Today I'm looking at other women and some seem nice and attractive.
How do you guys hold it with OW or dating or just 'playing' around a bit to boost confidence? I want to stay true to my values tho...but a man after all
Hi Complex
From what I've read, the advice with WAS families seems to be not to tell them about the A but tell your W that you are not willing to lie to others about it.
With my sitch, I really didn't feel it was my 'place' to tell H's family about his A. They are transatlantic anyway, but we had been due to go on holiday with them and obviously they guessed something was wrong when I wasn't there.
I don't think H's parents knew for a few months, and I received very curt emails from them. But I sat tight and had some much warmer contact from them recently. So, I think they know now, and I'm glad I didnt tell them. If your W's family are local it may well come to a head much more quickly.
You mention intentions...
I think when an A is revealed, there is an urge to gather up family and friends to put pressure on the WAS and hope others can get them to see sense. Pretty pointless for now - all the friendly logic in the world won't trump the emotion being felt right now.
Dating? I think that would be a revenge affair right now - I would say don't go there...
Regarding family I want to make them aware so bad. I'm trying to ask myself what my intentions are tho, and what they should be.
I don't want to just plainly get them against W and D.
But I have this urge to make them aware of how much she changed.
I'm not going to do anything yet tho until a therapist or counselor looked over my whole case and gives me a proper advice after analyzing my situation.
Today I'm looking at other women and some seem nice and attractive.
How do you guys hold it with OW or dating or just 'playing' around a bit to boost confidence? I want to stay true to my values tho...but a man after all
I would be "nice" to other ladies. Having them as targets instead of the WAW makes life feel like there is some hope. You don't have to sleep with them.
Salsa dancing and/or similar is a way to get cclose to some ladies for good clean fun and feel good and masculine and desired...
Thank you DaddyLongShanks.
I signed up for the gym already. But I got thrown off my plans with the new developments. I really hit the ground, but need to pull myself up again.
I see the positve. Without all this happening I wouldn't be/become the person I am and want to be. I just have to stay true to myself.
Thanks Toots
Yeah I don't want to tell them anything knowing I just want to use them for my purpose. I'm sure she will lie to them first and she will think time will heal everything, for me, for them, for her. Which is kind of true but a cowardly approach.
Looking at her I also learned a lot of things that I do NOT want to do wrong in my future..with whoever.
Dating you are right. I can't go there. My gut tells me it's wrong. Although at some point a man will suffer. I have a lot of 'drive'
need to resist and stay strong and life up to my values.
Another thing I want to do is talk to her Priest at Church, that she hasn't been to in a long time. Just to see what they say, completely open minded. Maybe they also recommend a good counselor. And I want to get in touch with my believes and God. I still have to confess a lot.
Regarding family I want to make them aware so bad. I'm trying to ask myself what my intentions are tho, and what they should be.
I don't want to just plainly get them against W and D.
I think if you dig even just a little, you'll see what your motivations are and they are not what they "should be". The DB books address this^^ too.
Act in accordance with your GOAL, Not in accordance with how you Feel...
But I have this urge to make them aware of how much she changed.
"Changed" or "DONE WRONG"? And Why do you have this "urge"?
Perhaps To get them as allies and have her seen as...."Wrong". But they will always LOVE HER no matter what. If you are the messenger to them that their daughter or family member is "the bad one", what do you really believe they'll do, in the end?
Here is what my DB coach told me: "It's Not a spouses job to 'teach a lesson' or 'show them the consequences of their choices',
b/c Life does that."
Most of the time a LBS wants to "expose an A", it's b/c they are hurt and angry. Period.
Now, I'm not suggesting you pay for or enable her to cheat on you and lie.
But telling her family and loved ones about it, imo, will probably backfire on you big time. Certainly in her eyes. But also, sometimes, even in the 3rd parties eyes.
Here's a true story of what I mean.
I am an "administrator" on my high school class page on FB. (So only I can delete things. Who knew?)
Awhile back, several classmates wrote to me and asked me to "delete some weird/angry" posts from a classmate's wife. I went and read the posts.
There, the classmate's wife (and LBS) wrote to our class. She said that she hoped
"OW won't steal your h's like she stole mine last year at the reunion!"
(**BTW Both OW and her h, are classmates**)
While I felt sorry for the LBW (of course we here on a DB site, would),
I also did not think she'd chosen a very appropriate place to fume at her stbxh.
I deleted the post, as per the requests AND my own judgement.
Later on, about 5 different people wrote to me, privately AND in public on FB.
Not one said a kind word about the wife; rather,
Every single comment seemed very unsympathetic to her.
They called her a "spurned woman", "obviously bitter" and "pathetic". AND someone said "no wonder h left her" (OUCH).
Last but not least, people reached out to OW, the classmate and asked how SHE felt..
I can only shake my head for the LBW b/c I'm sure her goal was NOT to have people feel pity or contempt for her, but they did.
No one said a bad word about the h, OR the Other Woman So whatever the Left Behind wife's goal was in exposing, it totally backfired and I don't think that is a rare example. I think it's common.
I'm not going to do anything yet tho until a therapist or counselor looked over my whole case and gives me a proper advice after analyzing my situation.
That's ^^^ wise.
Dig deep inwardly, about WHY you feel "the urge". If it is not coming from a healthy place of love or "light", it's probably not you at your best.
And fwiw, it's not just "Exposing" that you have to do this with. Pretty much every ACTION I wanted to take for or against or about my h, back then, required me to be very honest with myself.
Many times, many...I wanted to punish or hurt h but I would tell myself things like "it's just fair" and or "Honesty!" But in reality it was me and my anger that motivated me for the most part.
I learned to watch for that b/c it's NOT me at my best. And this situation, more than any other in my life, required me to be at my best.
Make sense?
Today I'm looking at other women and some seem nice and attractive.
How do you guys hold it with OW or dating or just 'playing' around a bit to boost confidence? I want to stay true to my values tho...but a man after all
What does that mean to you? Does it mean "boys will be boys"?
Does it mean you have testosterone and thus, you are entitled to cheat and or have sex without love -- b/c after all, "a man" would...??
I have 5 brothers whom I love, and an adult son and a h....lots of men I love in my life.
Not one of them would say this^^ in a serious tone, AND believe it means they can cheat while also complaining about their wife doing just that.
Complex, here's a question for you.
When you see the words below, how do you feel?
"well She's a woman, after all."
well?? Just asking.
I never mentioned and I don't know if it's televant but I completely screwed my last girlfriend over. I was with her five years and had an affair the last year and slept with other women. I was a very bad man and completely off path.
The love for my wife put me back on track. She saved me. And she still does....
I never mentioned and I don't know if it's televant but I completely screwed my last girlfriend over. I was with her five years and had an affair the last year and slept with other women. I was a very bad man and completely off path.
The love for my wife put me back on track. She saved me. And she still does....
HAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are witnessing this thing called karma but also ying and yang....
It's not all that bad has to come on you for "bad" that you have done. But sometimes when you change your balance too far you will be the recipient versus the one who does these things.
So imagine if you will that your choice in life was you gotta be a bit of a bad boy, cheat "respectively", and make it not important so you never fall in love nad you take care of your family. Everybody is OK.
What if the flip side is you are too much of a "good" boy... Wife cheats on you all the time, is disrespectful, makes it stressful around the house hard to earn a living. And you are disrespected so badd and not even allowed affections and you gain ED out of it and low confidence.
What if that is your choices.... Just keep in mind the balance of it all. You might have to restore some of your old "bad boy" self without actually going physical on her, there are walls and holes in each of us, you may have become too accomidating and your woman finds the other stuff more interesting.
Life is really weird like that and trust me I wish I did not have to understand it.
Thank you DaddyLongShanks.
I signed up for the gym already. But I got thrown off my plans with the new developments. I really hit the ground, but need to pull myself up again.
I see the positve. Without all this happening I wouldn't be/become the person I am and want to be. I just have to stay true to myself.
Thanks Toots
Yeah I don't want to tell them anything knowing I just want to use them for my purpose. I'm sure she will lie to them first and she will think time will heal everything, for me, for them, for her. Which is kind of true but a cowardly approach.
Looking at her I also learned a lot of things that I do NOT want to do wrong in my future..with whoever.
Dating you are right. I can't go there. My gut tells me it's wrong. Although at some point a man will suffer. I have a lot of 'drive'
need to resist and stay strong and life up to my values.
Another thing I want to do is talk to her Priest at Church, that she hasn't been to in a long time. Just to see what they say, completely open minded. Maybe they also recommend a good counselor. And I want to get in touch with my believes and God. I still have to confess a lot.
Stop looking at her stuff for I'd say 3 months. Make it all about you. Also if you salsa merengue, etc it will be a good way to restore some of your old self without actually cheating on her. It will make you feel desired, masculine, in control and like a man...
When you build up your strength you can look at her shenanigans like a childish banter, like a 13 year old misbehaving and you know everything that they are doing.
I never mentioned and I don't know if it's televant but I completely screwed my last girlfriend over. I was with her five years and had an affair the last year and slept with other women. I was a very bad man and completely off path.
The love for my wife put me back on track. She saved me. And she still does....
It may be relevant. Why did you cheat on her, and why so much? I mean, if it had only happened once in some unique situation, it MIGHT be more understandable.
But it sounds more like it was a repeated choice you made, a pattern.
What did you tell yourself then, while you were cheating? How'd you justify it?
How'd your wife "Save" you? How can she "Still" save you? From what?
If you could be forgiven, can she?
Finally and maybe most importantly, What, if anything, did you learn about yourself?
Thanks for your honest response 25yearsmic. I needed to hear that.
I got all the good intentions but I don't seem to trust myself.
You didn't fully understand me tho. I'm just struggling. But I will not go against my own values anymore. I'm fighting with myself.
Plus I read a lot about the advices to "make WAW jealous", get confidence, be mysterious, even date.
It's agains my morale, and anyway wouldn't make any difference. It would only completely confirm her decision and make her feel very good about everything.
The thing is: why are we all here? For ourselves? For W? For what? Humans are selfish, most of the things we do are for ourselves.
True love is non-selfish.
So each of us should at one point ask ourselves WHY we are here.
Regarding the parents thanks for the advice.
If they ask me ya I'll tell them the truth and some of my concerns but I want to do it with love. I want to be strong. I want them to think the same way of me than my wife. That I care, that I love and that I forgive.
I never mentioned and I don't know if it's televant but I completely screwed my last girlfriend over. I was with her five years and had an affair the last year and slept with other women. I was a very bad man and completely off path.
The love for my wife put me back on track. She saved me. And she still does....
It may be relevant. Why did you cheat on her, and why so much? I mean, if it had only happened once in some unique situation, it MIGHT be more understandable.
But it sounds more like it was a repeated choice you made, a pattern.
What did you tell yourself then, while you were cheating? How'd you justify it?
How'd your wife "Save" you? How can she "Still" save you? From what?
If you could be forgiven, can she?
Finally and maybe most importantly, What, if anything, did you learn about yourself? I basically wanted to quit the relationship with my ex. But I was a coward and instead telling her I cheated.
What's happening to me now is similar to what I did to someone else. And I probably deserve it. Things come back to you.
My wife opened my heart for love and trust again. And I wanted to do things right this time. The commitment felt awesome. I wanted to save myself from my life I was unhappy with. I felt like the luckiest man in the whole wide world. I wanted to live values, have a partner, a family.
But I gotta say we developed our love in the beginning too. For me though it was love at first sight. I've never seen a prettier smile in my life yet.
She always tells me we found what we needed and wanted in that moment and that our love was only romantic. There's truth in it.
But I feel like I still wanna do things right and love her. I fell in love with her. Romantically. Then we failed to transit after the honeymoon phase. Communication had leaks. That's where all my regrets are coming from too.
Ha, I hear myself talking like I'm at the therapist already
I clearly think to much and overthink things. Life should be fun.
Did I actually ever mention that OM at work is a doctor? W a nurse.
He's married to his work and is playing hard to get it seems like. Doesn't want a work based R. Likes her a lot tho.
While she's adoring him trying to get every bit of attention from him possible. It's kind of one sided actually. (I know bc I snooped)
Kinda scripty. Doctor, successful. Me foreigner, live in the limbo, Mr. nice guy, , crying his ass off in front of W all the time.
Also why I'm mad at myself. I acted human, but I acted human WAY too long and pushed her out, confirming everything she said. Now I regret.
But all we can do is move on. It's taken its course.
"Life should be fun".
Really? Always? Most of the time? What if it's not? What if the marriage isn't fun? See, I believe that life is often difficult. There are obstacles to overcome, hurdles to leap, and many many trying times. This does NOT depress me.
I sometimes think learning to find the joy IN those^^ very times, the "fun" in everyday "ordinary" life, is part of the goal/solution. Virginia Wolfe wrote about that in her poems and novels. She'd write about flowers and the sky and relationships all in depth bc she was squeezing joy and meaning out of the LIFE she was living.
I think if we expect life to be "fun", in general, and we don't work our butts off to MAKE it that way, then we are setting ourselves and others up for bitter disappointment. Even if WE are fun and happy and GAL, someone we love will still get cancer and some won't win their battles. Some will have car accidents, lose loved ones, lose our jobs, face bankruptcy, not fit in, in the new city we moved to,
fail at something important to us....and most of that won't be fun at all.
I know that having children & raising them is, BY FAR , the hardest, unrelentingly demanding, best, most beautiful, most important, courageous selfless, exhausting thing I've ever done.
There are many apparent contradictions in this^^ statement, yet it's all true.
So, have you ever read "The Road Less Travelled" by M. Scott Peck, MD ??
I think you'd get a lot out of it b/c you are approaching a lot of this with a philosophical view, (which isn't wrong at all, just slightly unusual.)
The other standard DB book recommendations you may want, are --
"The Five Love Languages", by Chapman, "Co-dependent No More",
"After the Affair" and pretty much anything by Michelle Weiner-Davis, (the DB author).
((( )))
Did I actually ever mention that OM at work is a doctor? W a nurse.
No, but why does it matter, at all? They have medicine in common, or what?
Why is this^^ about them, (whom you have no control over) and not about you? Remember, you are all you control. So put your focus back to YOU and your work...
what are your 180s again? And the GAL? Sometimes it's good to get back to the basics of DBing...
1) changes YOU want to make in yourself;
2) GAL activities you want to explore;
3) 180s, (at least 2)
Can yo list some of your short term goals, towards the overall goals: self improvement and Reconciling?
What are they?
He's married to his work and is playing hard to get it seems like. Doesn't want a work based R. Likes her a lot tho.
I'm married to an MD. I could sit here and just agree with you but the fact is, you do NOT KNOW HIM. Why try to read HIS mind or heart? Even reading their texts (which will absolutely infuriate HER if she finds out) isn't going to give you a real picture of who HE is. And Complex, HE does not matter. Do Not focus on OM.
In most situations, including yours I think,
the affair is a symptom, Not a cause of your problems.
Seriously, why bother snooping now? It won't change your path, will it? If so, how? If not, then drop it.
You'll make yourself nuts thinking about how much money he earns and the prestige he gets, and you will become bitter and overlook or gloss over the things You need/want to work on and instead it'll be all about him and his flaws or greatness and blah blah blah.
SOoooo, Back to WHO matters most here, i.e. you and you new improved self...
While she's adoring him trying to get every bit of attention from him possible. It's kind of one sided actually. (I know bc I snooped)
SIGH...why snoop about this??
You already knew she was having an affair. Does it change one bit of YOUR approach?
Does it honestly make you feel, down deep, any better? How?
Kinda scripty. Doctor, successful. Me foreigner, live in the limbo, Mr. nice guy, , crying his ass off in front of W all the time.
Oh man Complex, come on, is that really how you see this scenario playing out?
All so very simple. Just you being a "nice guy" with the ONLY reason there's any limbo or poverty with you, is b/c you are a "foreigner"?? Is that truly what you want to say now?
Hey come on, If you come here to say that You have no flaws to work on, other than being "Nice", as if "everything was great UNTIL OM came along"...then you will feel powerless to change things.
You seem to be saying that showing your emotions was the reason she had the affair. Is that what you mean to say?
I don't agree. You said you only showed those emotions after the affair was discovered, right? So how is that related to her choice to have the affair, at all?
Never mind all this, b/c What matters is what were you like before the affair AND how will you act, from this day forward?
Oh, one thing....one thing I can say for doctors. At least in this country, they all work their butts off to become MD's. That's just a fact. For years they earn little or nothing.
When they finally complete their journey, after years of training and residency, and they become staff or attending physicians, then they earn better incomes. But by the hour, it's not great pay. They work LONG hours. They deserve their high incomes.
Okay I'll stop feeling a bit testy about that. I guess a part of me vigorously defends MDs b/c thats what I do; it's my profession, (i.e. I defend hospitals, & doctors/nurses who are sued.)
Also why I'm mad at myself. I acted human, but I acted human WAY too long and pushed her out, confirming everything she said. Now I regret.
But all we can do is move on. It's taken its course.
Well, maybe it's a language barrier, but what are you saying ^^here? I'm not clear.
So You think "acting human" is bad? And you think that's the "flaw" you want to work on? Not sure I can help with that b/c I am a human too! Last I looked, I was. 
Cutting to the chase... What do you feel were YOUR mistakes or contributions to the problems?
B/c THAT and the DB basics ought to be your focus now.
Work on those. GAL big time. You must detach and become the better choice.
If your w once loved you deeply, if you had a great connection, then in time those memories can resurface if you don't prevent or hinder that from happening.
FYI, The affairs doctors & nurses have, tend to move faster than others.
They don't continue indefinitely b/c there's too much going on at work, and too much stress to keep that up and their reputations do matter. So they make a choice relatively early, compared to other affairs.
You want to look your best as a husband and catch, for when she looks your way.
Get ready for that. GAL, Detach, become a man only a fool would leave.
25yearsmic. I love you!
You are an incredibly rational, straight forward, wise and kind person.
I want to thank you for your last post. It made me cry.
I will read it again later when I have more time and give everything a deeper thought.
Quick question that came on my mind earlier, how should I react to mutual friends and family? No one knows yet, but I haven't seen them since I'm back from Germany. We will get invited very soon. There are usually a LOT of family obligations. It'll sink through.
How should I deal with this? Withdraw (don't really want to, I love them too)? Let W give the tone? Sit down and talk to her how we deal with family? Make my own decisions? Suggestions?
I do NOT want her to think I'll use family against her, which I won't. But she will be mistrusting me.
Thanks for your honest response 25yearsmic. I needed to hear that.
I got all the good intentions but I don't seem to trust myself.
You didn't fully understand me tho. I'm just struggling. But I will not go against my own values anymore. I'm fighting with myself.
Plus I read a lot about the advices to "make WAW jealous", get confidence, be mysterious, even date.
It's agains my morale, and anyway wouldn't make any difference. It would only completely confirm her decision and make her feel very good about everything.
The thing is: why are we all here? For ourselves? For W? For what? Humans are selfish, most of the things we do are for ourselves.
True love is non-selfish.
So each of us should at one point ask ourselves WHY we are here.
Regarding the parents thanks for the advice.
If they ask me ya I'll tell them the truth and some of my concerns but I want to do it with love. I want to be strong. I want them to think the same way of me than my wife. That I care, that I love and that I forgive.
Boy. You are a sitting duck. Your wife is not in your love game. Shes feasting on what shes put over you. Were not asking you to make her jealous. Were asking you to respect human psychology and accept maybe you dont know it all.
The way things went the last few days also caused sth bad. With the snooping etc. I actually might have done the final push for her to be out.
One of her last texts was "things are becoming very real now".
Since then she went dark on me.
Is that a good thing or no? It feels horrible to me bc even with what was going on she seemed to care about me and texted me on a daily basis.
Is that script how things just usually go down?
Sure I can also use it to focus on myself but it feels like I lost my power over the situation - which I probably never did.
But it's just like "now she's completely gone and I helped her"
The way things went the last few days also caused sth bad. With the snooping etc. I actually might have done the final push for her to be out.
One of her last texts was "things are becoming very real now".
Since then she went dark on me.
Is that a good thing or no? It feels horrible to me bc even with what was going on she seemed to care about me and texted me on a daily basis.
Is that script how things just usually go down?
Sure I can also use it to focus on myself but it feels like I lost my power over the situation - which I probably never did.
But it's just like "now she's completely gone and I helped her"
Having the information IS power. Because before you were being fooled. Today you are learning more and more what you are really dealing with. Like what we said about intel, it's best not to reveal intel.
You might alert her family know if you are friends with them that there is some trouble in the relationship, but don't try to get them to take your side.
Take care of your physical person and appearance and be responsible in your life. Right now the current wife is dishonest and is not working with you. You might get small nuggets here and there from her, but you cannot count on it.
Complex,
please notice that I asked you a lot of questions (before and herein).
Try to answer the questions asked, okay?
The way things went the last few days also caused sth bad.
Can you elaborate on this^^? I am not clear on your meaning.
With the snooping etc. I actually might have done the final push for her to be out.
That's always a risk with snooping. Did you say you had read the books, Divorce Busting and or, Divorce Remedy?
The books explain why snooping can be a bad idea. What do you think now? Can you STOP Snooping? Seriously, can you? I'm not being sarcastic.
You already knew of the affair, so what is the point, now, of MORE snooping?
One of her last texts was "things are becoming very real now".
Since then she went dark on me.
Is that a good thing or no?
Well, if you dig a little, you can probably see that it's not "good" thing when the WAS pulls away even more. But no, it's not fatal. I can't say what she means by "more real". What was the context of that comment?
Complex, You need to actually USE the Div Busting tools and Not just read about them. This approach to helping marriages in crisis, and it is Not something you just think about doing.
You have to DO it. Or resign your marriage. Figure out what you want to do, and then ask yourself a harder question.
What are you willing to do, to save your marriage, knowing that all your efforts might still fail?
From where I sit, you have not done any of the Div Busting techniques. So you cannot say that DB is not working.
Are you willing to try the techniques? What do you have to lose, that you're not already losing?
It feels horrible to me bc even with what was going on she seemed to care about me and texted me on a daily basis.
Is that script how things just usually go down?
You snooped and you got caught. THAT piece of it isn't that 'usual" b/c a lot of spouses do not snoop. And many who learn of an affair, Stop snooping once they know.
You kept on snooping and I still don't think you know why you do what you do. That needs to change.
What are the traits of yours, that YOU WANT to change? Let's start there.
Sure I can also use it to focus on myself but
Newsflash...you can ONLY focus on yourself b/c there is no one else you can control. You must only focus on yourself b/c you have to let her go for now.
The word "But",^^^ means the next piece of your sentence is nonsense. You are negating the first clause.
Meaning, you use the word "but" -- to contradict what you just said. That's because you do not want to focus on yourself,
and you keep on making this about what SHE is doing.
But now, this is all about what YOU are doing. Did you really read the book?
It puts the burden on us to change ourselves. That's the biggest single reason that divorce busting CAN work.
Because it's about us working on the only people we ever had control over; ourselves.
it feels like I lost my power over the situation - which I probably never did.
Since you never ever had control over your wife, that's not an actual loss.
As for the "Situation" , well, you were provided some options, but you did not use the DB techniques. You snooped and pursued.
Did you do any of the behaviors listed in the Newbie "rules"? (They are not "rules" so much as guidelines. All based on Michelle Weiner-Davis's books. And not all of the guidelines fit all situations, of course. But they are a good start).
I'm not trying to scold you. I'm trying to get you to focus your energy where it belongs and where it will do the most good.
Complex, if you become a man only a fool would leave, that helps you no matter what your wife chooses to do. Do you agree?
So let's get that program started.
But it's just like "now she's completely gone and I helped her"
You gave her reason to detach and distance herself more. True.
That doesn't mean she won't approach you again, later on. When she does, you must NOT snoop or pursue. Can you restrain yourself from doing that?
I'd use the guidelines for your guidance and FINISH reading the Div Busting book or the Div Remedy book (I prefer the second one, but have read both, more than once).
What's the present situation from a Legal standpoint? Has anyone filed anything? What are your citizenship issues, if any?
What is happening now, between the two of you and what did she say last?
I'm not clear on all of that, so I can't be more specific til I know.
But nothing is over and done. Besides, even if it were, there are still paths to follow.
Meaning, I have two family members who actually divorced each other, and then later on, remarried their former spouses.
So yes, it happens. (It was not "fast". It took a few years and they each changed and worked on themselves in the mean time. IF I recall correctly, none of them expected to reconcile. But they DID make changes in themselves)
You need to do at least 3 things now.
1) Read the book(s) to the end. Process it, take in the information and suggestions.
2) GAL. Meaning, start something, join something, explore something, DO something new and different, that you enjoy, for you.
You cannot detach, without GAL. GAL starts out to help you heal, and then to detach, & to become a happier, more upbeat person.
Even though this is for YOU, the fact is that a happier, more upbeat person is also a more attractive person.
3) Do your 180s. What are they?
We know you want to restore or rebuild your new marriage. We get that. That's your over all "big picture", goal.
There are steps along the way to achieving that goal. Some short term goals.
What are yours? The 180s are nice and simple, though not necessarily "easy".
One short term goal of yours (and most LBSers) is to:
CONTRAST the negative images your wife has or used to justify leaving,
with new different positives images of you.
So if she used to believe you were "always late", you will now be "Mr Punctual"!!
You will arrive early or on time for everything.
That^^ is a simplified example of a "180," that could be used to change the image a spouse has of their spouse. What are examples of yours?
You want her to believe that there is "new data" about you. OR that her data wasn't that accurate to begin with,
(but it's usually easier to convince someone of your changes & new behaviors, than to convince them that their views of you were never valid. )
Either way, the point is that you are NOT the way she believed you were.
So, if she were here, what would SHE SAY if she were here, about you?
Try to use specifics, & it'll be easier for us to help and advise. Okay?
Just b/c she SAYS something about you needs changing, may not mean it does. But whatever her complaints were, IF there are some that YOU yourself want to change, that's a great place to begin your changes.
Again, remember, Becoming the best man you can become, is the FIRST GOAL b/c no matter what else might happen, that's a victory for you.
Div Busting is different from most marriage problem approaches in 2 important ways.
1) it's solution based, so they focus on what helps you today, not what happened years ago or in childhood.
(Those issues can be important but they do not matter in terms of what you may need to do TODAY, to help your marriage. And they can best be solved with therapy for those issues, not your behavior right now)
Don't get bogged down in asking "WHY??" so much as WHAT YOU MUST DO, for now.
Plus, usually asking a lot of questions that have no "good" or satisfying answer, detracts from where you should be focussed, which is on yourself.
2) Div Busting puts the primary focus on OUR OWN GROWTH and improvement.
That often leads to us becoming better partners and that helps our relationships. It's something with a definite "pay off" b/c no matter what our spouse does, or chooses, we are better people for having done this work.
Do you understand? That's why we often say "save yourself first, then the marriage".
You can do both, and I know that is what you want.
But you cannot save the marriage without doing your own personal work. Start with yourself.
Make sense?
I will sit down and answer ALL questions when I'm back home. I'll sit down with a pen and take myself a lot of time with it.
I'm just out of town for work and super busy. Very long days. Maybe tonight at the hotel.
The question how to deal with family is just a technical one. Because I basically don't know what's right to do with FIL.
Another actually important question came up today, which I need an answer for:
What IF my wife actually completely opens up when I get home and tells me th full truth? (She might bc she knows I snooped and might know more than I actually say)
Full truth meaning "I got feelings for OM for long time, really love him, want to be with him, that's why I want D. I don't wanna cheat on you and I want to wait until we are D because it is very serious between him and me".
And YES I won't focus on W or OM or whatsoever anymore but myself.. I know by now if I don't get a real 180 done, I have zero chance.
BUT I need some technical advise how to respond to certain things and how to properly DB handle certain situations.
Thanks
Another thing 25yearsmic:
I can not thank you enough for your help!!!
And YES I won't focus on W or OM or whatsoever anymore but myself.. I know by now if I don't get a real 180 done, I have zero chance.
So, what actions(not words) are you going to take, to do a 180?
Starting when? Why?
BUT I need some technical advise how to respond to certain things and how to properly DB handle certain situations.
Thanks
A whole lot of those circumstances will either never come up (so your time spent on worrying is wasted. Time that should have been spent on the changes you want to make)
If you finish the book(s) most of your questions^^, will be answered.
As for what your wife says...okay, So, when your wife says
{{WHATEVER SHE SAYS}]
YOU LISTEN... and see what you can learn about HER perceptions and HER hopes and HER dreams. Maybe she will tell you what was missing in the marriage, maybe she doesn't really know, but whatever it was, she feels she has it now.
You validate what she says. That's NOT to say you must agree.
Validating does Not = agreement.
Validation means you attempt to understand what she is telling you. You can re-cap it, repeat back to her what you hear her saying. "So w, what I hear you saying is that 'x' is important and you feel that need is met. Is that what you mean, w?" Show her that you really want to understand her wants.
IF she says "OM really gets me. HE knows what I like and WE have so much in common!...."
You can say "I can see how that would make you feel good".
It's not about you; it's not about OM; it is about HER.
You do Not argue with her about what YOU have in common with her.
No arguments. You cannot argue your way back into a marriage or love.
As I asked earlier, what has she told you, specifically?
If you can't answer that, I don't know how helpful my words are going to be.
I know you are busy at the moment but something tells me you have the urge to take short cuts here.
This isn't the place or situation for shortcuts. The only way past this pain is through it.
But things do get better. I know that.
So, back to YOU...
Another thing 25yearsmic:
I can not thank you enough for your help!!!
No problem Complex. When I was here there were some VERY helpful people.
They were noble people as far as I'm concerned. To this day, I'm grateful for them. Anything I do here is but a token of what they did for me and my m and children.
Good luck, keep posting and learning. The only good thing about this ordeal is our personal growth, but that is no small thing.
Is that a good thing or no? It feels horrible to me bc even with what was going on she seemed to care about me and texted me on a daily basis.
Is that script how things just usually go down?
One thing you've got to understand is that things will get much worse before they get better. Most successful reconciliations around here took 8 to 24 months. During that period, things that you don't like at all will happen. The EA might turn into a PA. She'll tell you it's over. She or you might move out. She might move in with OM. She might move out of state. Her family may support S, or not care, or may have no influence even if they oppose S. Your WAW is going full speed ahead out of your M.
I'm telling you this so that you can start to be more patient. Don't wonder every day if this is the final straw, the nail in the coffin. You won't know. People who reconciled have often gone through D for instance. I know I'm headed there and I take it as part of a normal sitch.
Remember: we're already dead. It's not like your W is still M to you in her head. She's moved on and she's convinced. She has a rationale that explains why she no longer wants to be with you. It's awfully hard to understand because you think you're still in a R with her.
Try to imagine a reconciliation scenario, but make sure to include a part where things get worse, much worse. You need to build the patience and strength for when that happens. Do not imagine that, for instance, next week her parents will find out and she'll repent and come back to you right away. Remember also that the only thing that will bring her back to you is love. Not shaming, not pity. Love. That's why we tell you to work on yourself, to become a more attractive man.
Honestly, that was beautiful, Mozza.
It was beautiful. The way how Mozza sees things and helps out makes me feel sad for the situation he is in but I know he will be fine and a great person.
I had a fun night/dinner with my coworkers after work. It felt good. Having a great time with my mentor and some great people. Interestingly our new employee (very pretty and intelligent 45yr-ish old woman, divorced lol) gave me a lot of attention tonight. It just makes me feel good to notice I am liked and appreciated.
And somehow my mentor leaked some information about my issues which I am not mad about. It feels good to talk open about things. Hiding bad things was a big part of my life. My dad is an alcoholic (although he is a very very good hearted person) and I pretty much never spoke open about it. It feels good not to feel awkward for things that are NOT your fault.
I don't have the energy to get to all the questions from 25yearsmic and take my time answering and doing some more soul searching.
I'll do that on Monday and take my time.
But I'm afraid of the in home S. Not making things easier. But I got no choice right now. I'll take on the challenge and be the very best I can and GAL as much as I can. I just need to get my butt out of the house. I signed up for the gym again and will get my 10 pounds lean back that I lost. I want my life back!!!!
I also start to think that what's happening right now, as hard as it is, is the best (or let's say second best) thing that ever happened in my life. (You can guess what the first best thing was..)
Ok before I sleep and get back to work tomorrow lets do my first little 180 and take some time to answer some questions and do some thinking
And YES I won't focus on W or OM or whatsoever anymore but myself.. I know by now if I don't get a real 180 done, I have zero chance.
So, what actions(not words) are you going to take, to do a 180?
Starting when? Why?
Starting: yesterday. What: No more pursuing, no more snooping, no more doing things that have the intention to cause her feeling guilty, getting my life on track, stop talking and thinking - start DOING, BECOMING the person I really want to be, not just talk about it, stop regretting, stop wanting to control things, forgive her, forgive myself, love
Why? To become the person I want to be, with no regrets, knowing I gave the very best I have
BUT I need some technical advise how to respond to certain things and how to properly DB handle certain situations.
Thanks
A whole lot of those circumstances will either never come up (so your time spent on worrying is wasted. Time that should have been spent on the changes you want to make)
If you finish the book(s) most of your questions^^, will be answered.
Still need to read a third of the book, ASAP
As for what your wife says...okay, So, when your wife says
{{WHATEVER SHE SAYS}]
YOU LISTEN... and see what you can learn about HER perceptions and HER hopes and HER dreams. Maybe she will tell you what was missing in the marriage, maybe she doesn't really know, but whatever it was, she feels she has it now.
You validate what she says. That's NOT to say you must agree.
Validating does Not = agreement.
Validation means you attempt to understand what she is telling you. You can re-cap it, repeat back to her what you hear her saying. "So w, what I hear you saying is that 'x' is important and you feel that need is met. Is that what you mean, w?" Show her that you really want to understand her wants.
IF she says "OM really gets me. HE knows what I like and WE have so much in common!...."
You can say "I can see how that would make you feel good".
It's not about you; it's not about OM; it is about HER.
You do Not argue with her about what YOU have in common with her.
No arguments. You cannot argue your way back into a marriage or love.
As I asked earlier, what has she told you, specifically?
If you can't answer that, I don't know how helpful my words are going to be.
not sure what exactly you mean by what has she told me, so here different points:
Thinks she told me a long time ago (BD and after): She is unhappy and miserable in our M, she wants sth more in her life, we don't have the drive and future goals in common, not enough connection, she wants a 'complete' man that has his things figured out, I am an awesome person but just not for her, R based on romanticism not friendship. Loves me but more like a friend, I don't have enough passion and I don't follow through. All this = disconnection + what OM has what I do not...understandable actually
Things she told me recently (last 2 weeks): She screwed up that she even married me, she loves OM, their R is based on long term friendship, now she wants to do things right, help me so I can stay here and figure out my life here, wants to support me and stay my friend even if I don't want to, I could call her when I'm 90 years old and she will be there for me. We eventually have to forgive each other, that she is incredibly sorry, that she wants to gain my trust back (that she lost through lying to me about OM) , that she hopes to gain trust for me back (lost through snooping) - she didn't say all this at once, slowly leaking things.
Things she said without her knowing that I know: Things are getting real now (related to her bonding with OM and D). That she wants to do things the right way with OM and tell him that I know. And all the rings that I don't know how much weight I should put in with her friend about OM. Don't want to put too much focus on this part...
Is that what you asked?
I know you are busy at the moment but something tells me you have the urge to take short cuts here.
This isn't the place or situation for shortcuts. The only way past this pain is through it.
But things do get better. I know that.
So, back to YOU... THANKS AGAIN AND AGAIN!
I'll get to the other questions now.
Did I actually ever mention that OM at work is a doctor? W a nurse.
No, but why does it matter, at all? They have medicine in common, or what?
Why is this^^ about them, (whom you have no control over) and not about you? Remember, you are all you control. So put your focus back to YOU and your work...
what are your 180s again? And the GAL? Sometimes it's good to get back to the basics of DBing...
1) changes YOU want to make in yourself;
Answered in last post. Plus finishing college, increase education (see GAL)
2) GAL activities you want to explore;
Signed up for gym, created myself a good training plan, 3x a week, hang out with friends once a week. Star playing golf again. Signed up for college again, starting at junior college dice I can't transfer my college classes from Germany, goal: getting my bachelors degree, become a teacher (goal I dropped to move to US)
3) 180s, (at least 2)
see last post
Can yo list some of your short term goals, towards the overall goals: self improvement and Reconciling?
What are they?
see therapist and find out things about MYSELF and my lack of motivation, NOT about M, solution and action based approach, get fit and muscular again like I used to, stay busy, don't spend too much time at home, make W trust me again that I won't snoop, make her "like" me again as a person...that'd good for now
He's married to his work and is playing hard to get it seems like. Doesn't want a work based R. Likes her a lot tho.
I'm married to an MD. I could sit here and just agree with you but the fact is, you do NOT KNOW HIM. Why try to read HIS mind or heart? Even reading their texts (which will absolutely infuriate HER if she finds out) isn't going to give you a real picture of who HE is. And Complex, HE does not matter. Do Not focus on OM.
In most situations, including yours I think,
the affair is a symptom, Not a cause of your problems.
[b] I told myself that over and over again. It is very true and helps if you understand that
[/b]
Seriously, why bother snooping now? It won't change your path, will it? If so, how? If not, then drop it.
You'll make yourself nuts thinking about how much money he earns and the prestige he gets, and you will become bitter and overlook or gloss over the things You need/want to work on and instead it'll be all about him and his flaws or greatness and blah blah blah.
SOoooo, Back to WHO matters most here, i.e. you and you new improved self...
While she's adoring him trying to get every bit of attention from him possible. It's kind of one sided actually. (I know bc I snooped)
SIGH...why snoop about this??
You already knew she was having an affair. Does it change one bit of YOUR approach?
Does it honestly make you feel, down deep, any better? How?
It makes me feel worse, not better. But it was IMO necessary, since she played it down and I believed her. Only snooped twice. 1. OM and EA developing since we called it "quits". 2. Confirmed EA is serious and she wants D to be with OM. And especially that EA is going on for much longer than I thought.
NO MORE SNOOPING. I know everything I needed to know.
Kinda scripty. Doctor, successful. Me foreigner, live in the limbo, Mr. nice guy, , crying his ass off in front of W all the time.
Oh man Complex, come on, is that really how you see this scenario playing out?
All so very simple. Just you being a "nice guy" with the ONLY reason there's any limbo or poverty with you, is b/c you are a "foreigner"?? Is that truly what you want to say now?
Not what I'm saying. Proud of being a foreigner. I guess I just pessimistically summarized the situation and let myself down
Hey come on, If you come here to say that You have no flaws to work on, other than being "Nice", as if "everything was great UNTIL OM came along"...then you will feel powerless to change things.
You seem to be saying that showing your emotions was the reason she had the affair. Is that what you mean to say?
I don't agree. You said you only showed those emotions after the affair was discovered, right? So how is that related to her choice to have the affair, at all?
I showed emotions all along, from BD to EA, although I suspect EA started parallel with unhappiness of W in M. As a symptom, not the cause! Agree on that.
Never mind all this, b/c What matters is what were you like before the affair AND how will you act, from this day forward?
I was myself. A person with passion for life, enthusiasm about things I did, dreaming about doing good things and having a great future, having fun in my life and be authentic. How will I act from this day forward? Like myself 2 years ago with more wisdom and more motivation, more action, less talking
Oh, one thing....one thing I can say for doctors. At least in this country, they all work their butts off to become MD's. That's just a fact. For years they earn little or nothing.
When they finally complete their journey, after years of training and residency, and they become staff or attending physicians, then they earn better incomes. But by the hour, it's not great pay. They work LONG hours. They deserve their high incomes.
Okay I'll stop feeling a bit testy about that. I guess a part of me vigorously defends MDs b/c thats what I do; it's my profession, (i.e. I defend hospitals, & doctors/nurses who are sued.)
Also why I'm mad at myself. I acted human, but I acted human WAY too long and pushed her out, confirming everything she said. Now I regret.
But all we can do is move on. It's taken its course.
Well, maybe it's a language barrier, but what are you saying ^^here? I'm not clear.
So You think "acting human" is bad? And you think that's the "flaw" you want to work on? Not sure I can help with that b/c I am a human too! Last I looked, I was.
[b] I meant I was human crying, feeling down as hell, begging, mourning. But I didn't pull myself out of the dirt early enough. I didn't change myself
Cutting to the chase... What do you feel were YOUR mistakes or contributions to the problems?[/b]
B/c THAT and the DB basics ought to be your focus now.
I made promises what I want to do with my life. I didn't show persistency, nor passion, I wanted HER to change so she will make me feel better. I was mad that SHE didn't do anything for me involuntarily. Instead of me changing and see if that is going to make her feel better and eventually giving sth back automatically. I talked to much and didn't follie through. Etc etc. oh god my eyes are shutting. Need to sleep 
Work on those. GAL big time. You must detach and become the better choice.
If your w once loved you deeply, if you had a great connection, then in time those memories can resurface if you don't prevent or hinder that from happening.
FYI, The affairs doctors & nurses have, tend to move faster than others.
They don't continue indefinitely b/c there's too much going on at work, and too much stress to keep that up and their reputations do matter. So they make a choice relatively early, compared to other affairs.
You want to look your best as a husband and catch, for when she looks your way.
Get ready for that. GAL, Detach, become a man only a fool would leave.
Hope you are able to read "between the lines" how I posted/answered things. And thanks for reviewing in advance
The more I thought about everything, especially trying to really understand all the things my wife told me, I see the indifference between her and me that we are dragging around for over a year now, I did NOT understand her well enough.
It doesn't matter right now anymore since I have to focus on myself but the reconciliation scenario is more distant than it ever was.
I see now what a huge marathon this is going to be.
The more I thought about everything, especially trying to really understand all the things my wife told me, I see the indifference between her and me that we are dragging around for over a year now, I did NOT understand her well enough.
It sounds as if she wanted you to be who she believed you to be, before. From your own words, You either got depressed and or felt directionless and it showed.
I read somewhere that "90% of 'depression' is feeling purposeless. Finding meaning & direction in your life will cure most of it." Sorry I can't recall the author of that quote but it resonates with me at the moment.
Does it ring true for you? Do you think perhaps you lost your focus, your sense of direction, and that depressed you - which worsened all of these^^ things? A vicious cycle, really.
No matter what your wife does or says, you need to re-direct yourself and you will benefit from that. Agreed?
It doesn't matter right now anymore since I have to focus on myself but the reconciliation scenario is more distant than it ever was.
I see now what a huge marathon this is going to be.
1) YES you must focus on yourself and getting back on track. Don't refuse your w's support in that endeavor ( if you need her for citizenship purposes).
2) Marathon? For someone wanting a lifetime commitment to work, is a year really too long? It's not a year in jail; it's a year of personal/professional growth for you.
I'd say a good year of her seeing you on track, being upbeat and PASSIONATE about what you are doing, will go a long way towards your future - and her view of you.
She is infatuated with a man who has finished a lot of schooling, passed tough tests, endured an internship and residency (unless he's in it now, which I doubt) and she sees him as intense, passionate about his work, finding/giving meaning to the work and in her eyes, that contrasted with what you were doing.
From your words, it was a contrast. But that can change. Sounds as if you want to. So let the growth begin.
As a doctor's wife, let me tell you a few things he has going against him, okay?
The prestige and value of his work is attractive, until it's the only thing anyone ever asks about. I was rarely asked about the type of law I practiced, OR how our children were,
but instead was asked about what MY HUSBAND was working on then/next and where "we" were headed next, for HIS career of course.
After awhile, that gets really old.
Raising our kids mostly by myself also got old really fast too. Our son was 8 weeks old when h began medical school
(H had been a DVM before, so he was in school to be an "animal doctor" when we married). It was extremely hard, but we had been married some years before so there was already a bond between us. And then there was our son as well.
Anyhow, H worked long hours for several years, and he never ever had "normal' or predictable hours. That's exhausting for a spouse, let alone with a child (or 3 kids).
H worked or was on call (and thus, was absent) for 9 Thanksgivings in a row. Our children barely knew it was a holiday. Luckily they were small - but that meant I was a single parent on those "family" holidays. There were also many Christmas Eves and New Years Eve or Day that I was on my own, or had a h asleep in bed after working 36 hours in a row.
Yeah, 9 Thanksgivings in a row...The money wasn't great or even very good, until all of the training was over.
That's many years of not having money or much of it. And then most doctors face a mountain of debt when they finally finish it all. Not fun.
So Just as they reach for the "Brass ring" (that is an idiom that means they finally "won the prize")
they still have a lot of debt and long LONG hours and more responsibility too...but the pay jumps. Their prestige jumps. Their egos can too.
Not sure if OM was married or has an ex wife, (does he?)
I wonder how your wife will feel about him when he's working so often, for such long hours, and it doesn't improve anytime soon...
And when he's tired after work, (and trust me, he will be) how FUN and attentive will he be then?
The OM isn't the issue, but what attracts her to him, might be.
His drive and sense of purpose are the same traits you have within, but which have been hiding. Get those out of hiding.
Show your drive and determination, that you can/do pick yourself up after you fall.
Since you two did fall in love once upon a time, don't worry about the chemistry. That can resurface.
The attractive parts of you have been covered up by the guy you described, in terms that include:
a guy who seems lost and "cries and pleads", a guy who got "depressed and has no direction", and "didn't finish college yet", etc.
Maybe She just didn't want to have to be your cheerleader for life, and or the financier of your stall out.
Complex, Here is some wonderful news. You can change ALL this^^^. It's very doable. You need to do it for yourself, anyway.
Embrace this^^ Complex, welcome it! See it as the opportunity it is, and the kick in the butt you needed. When you see it that way, the PMA will be much easier.
It'll be natural. You can do this. You must do this.
What step can you take THIS WEEK?
Thanks for your time
Yes I do feel like I'm depressed and ended up in a vicious cycle. Lost my direction. I just totally settled. I was happy with what I have, but I didn't need more and my wife was too responsible for me. She criticized me for exactly those things too after BD. Although I made good efforts this year to improve my situation but then I lacked drive and passion.
I agree on everything you said.
NEXT WEEK (Mo-Wed, Thu-Sun I'm gone for work again):
MO: - Therapist appointment (I am NOT going to ask him how I can fix my marriage, of course I'll tell him my situation, but my therapy should be about me), Gym, finish DR, Getting some information on the upcoming Semester, signing up for courses
TUE: - Work, College, start the book "boundaries" (Starsky's recommendation), meeting a friend for dinner.
WED: Gym, work, getting info about seeing a priest, maybe confess
Legal things:
Starsky preaches to act in my own interest. Which in my case means to stretch the D as long as possible. To buy myself time before things get finalized.
My citizenship application is ok to do now, until April. It will probably process decently fast and I'll have it latest in April.
Then I am afraid W will rush into D. But we will see. Is there anything I can do to put a hold on filing etc? Maybe rather go for legal S?
Nothing to really worry about right NOW but I want to be prepared.
Last status of W: parents should get involved soon. She didn't fully speak it out but her position is: I'll get my GC, and after a "reasonable" amount of time after (so it doesn't look to obvious and I jeopardize that they still take it away) we head for D.
I'm not sure what a reasonable amount of time would be after Greencard renewal.
Fact tho is I would very likely to be able to renew since I can proof that M was real and I want to save it but W is leaving me. It's all about the good intentions, but I have to look into details of that. It's risky to rely on that probably.
But the government is spying all this here anyway
Either way, it's going to buy me some time. But it's rather complicated to figure it out the right way and figure out how much time I have to at least turn quick D plans around. Wonder if W actually knows that's its going to be a little more complicated that she thinks....she mentioned weeks ago if we both agree we can make D uncomplicated. She wants a "friendly" D. Parting as friends. But we got property together so a lawyer is unavoidable anyway.
I don't have any clue how long D will take and what is going to happen. I'll just act in my personal interest and be as loving and understanding at the same time.
Main focus is on myself anyway but I want to act in my own interests when it comes to D plans and set my own healthy boundaries in the process.
Another light went on:
I actually critized W so much for not "trying" hard enough to save M and improve R. It was a legit accusation regarding not getting outside help as a last resort or to improve our communication and get a third person involved. But she actually really tried when I look back. She involved me in all family activities, we tried to "date", spend a lot of time together.
...BUT I didn't change at all. I just tried to convince her to convert to my opinion, my view of the whole story and M. Obviously that didn't work and she felt misunderstood and I just showed so much pain that I was going through.
I was NOT ready.
But like Mozza said. Things get worse before they get better. And I am....WAS a person who needs to hit rock bottom or feel like it's all too late to realize and do a 180.
it's ne we too late to do one tho!
I come from a long line of Doctors...many of my family,friends, cycling buddies are Dr.s nearly all have been married SEVERAL times....often to nurses or staff. I know three close friends/colleague who have dated nurses, engaged to nurses, and married to nurses. All three have broken it off ( divorced) and now married to a regular joe.
looking for a mate based on a specific career or earning potential strikes me as shallow. Doctors may chase Nurses skirts, but your w will be lucky if OM marries her. That would be far to degrading for some.....I've seen many young nurse be swept of their feet by the recently divorced Attending, or the new Resident, and then crying when they move on. Or the sad older nurses who make them selves up everyday, but have never landed their doctors.
Even though I was a well respected neurologist and a good provider to my wife and daughter, my wife of nine yrs still cheated on me with a young administrative intern. Meaning this goes both ways. Just because we have an M.Ds after our name, that does not give us any more real advantage over........your wife will realize this with time.
All you can do now is focus on you, listen to yourself, and decide whether or not your relationship is worth saving. If you do decide you want to make things work, then you have to take things one day at a time while remembering to take care of yourself.
If I were you I'll not discuss green card or citizenship with her anymore. She will use that as bargain chip to get what she want (divorce without consequences for her actions). Not saying your marriage will end but You can always get your permanent residency and citizenship with or without her. All you need is proof of the affair.
If I were you I'll not discuss green card or citizenship with her anymore. She will use that as bargain chip to get what she want (divorce without consequences for her actions). Not saying your marriage will end but You can always get your permanent residency and citizenship with or without her. All you need is proof of the affair.
Yes. I think I should not make a big deal out of it. But the topic wil come up. She will ask for sure what the status is soon. I'll just tell her I'm taking care of it and that she shouldn't worry!?
She might feel pressured or think that I want to "stretch" D on purpose by waiting too long until I file for the renewal.
Thank you Lost for your insight on the doctor/nurse R's. I mean it's obvious that Dr's are crazy busy and this is NOT a very desirable family life or R life. But I'm not in control of this. It seems like she likes him for a reason and they are long time friends...but how do you know how a R is going to be before it even starts? That's why I cannot give too much thought into this. It might be the love of her life, it might be a complete flop, or it might be a decent R that ends up in unhappiness AGAIN. After all it's a symptom, not a cause...that's what I learned.
Finished reading DR. I was so positive ader 25years last post. It made me feel good about myself and my plans.
Then I got home. W completely dark on me for 2 days. Bag of oranges on the floor which means she saw her dad^^. But she's already in bed, which is very early for her. So she's going out of my way. Maybe she told him. I hope not, wanted to stretch that a bit in my interest but if so its ok. Nothing I can control.
But after finishing DR I felt rather worse than more motivated haha. I feel like my wife is so far away that I'm actually in the 'after last resort stage' or at least in between the 'last resort' and 'alr' stage. And there isn't much written about the truly hard cases. And my wife assured me many times now that M doesn't exist anymore. Guess I have to face the reality that even for DB standard I'm pretty damn screwed^^
There also isn't a lot mentioned how to deal with family.
I know its going to come up soon. My gut is telling me.
So I'm asking again, what's the standard DB approach to family in law?
(Considering parents are divorced, but fathers side family is HUGE and they all love me and there are a ton of family obligations).
A) how do I deal best with the "coming out"? W decision? Decide together? Boundaries?
B) how much contact to FIL should I have. Right now I don't feel like going NC with them. I love them all a lot but what's a heatlhy balance between staying in touch, what they actually should know or not know and not acting like I want to turn them against W?
Just by reasonable thinking I would approach it like this: "they can know that we have problems and are separated but thry need to let us figure everything out ourselves, but they can be there for us if we need them"!?!?!
After all I feel better about myself and DBing and are confident that I can pull some 180s off this week.
I wouldn't tell your wifes family. It is not your place to do so and you will gain nothing from it. It will only make matters worse and reafirm to your wife that she doesnt want you. It is for your wife to tell them if she so feels.
I am in the same position and also feel like confronting OM and letting her family know but I will gain nothing other than more heart ache and driving my wife further away from me. Over the last 2 days Ive had an awakening in that I just need to concentrate on me. Be the best i can. Be the best dad i can be
Complex, I agree with SRD - I would shelve the in-laws for now. It isn't your place to tell them - but you can tell your W that you won't lie to them.
I would let this go for now - and as SRD said focus on yourself. You are maybe hoping that family may rally around and the pressure will help your W turn back. It won't - and it then becomes another thing to overcome if you do ultimately reconcile...
Be patient, the truth will come out in time with her family...and then you'll probably be glad that you weren't the one who told them.
Ok, I didn't plan on telling them. I was just wondering if I just go NC on them and let W handle it. But they are a big part of my life and we have a lot of contact. I don't want to "ditch" them completely.
First day of real DBing started. Saw W this morning before she left for work. I was upbeat and friendIy.
She seemed very distant although we had a very short small talk.
It's her first day today working day shift again after night shift for almost a year.
I just wished her a good first day at work. Interesting how she made herself pretty this morning...she never really used to. But I noticed she's doing it for a while now.
Gotta keep going and focus but I'm happy with this morning bc usually mornings are the toughest times for me.
First day of real DBing started. Saw W this morning before she left for work. I was upbeat and friendIy.
She seemed very distant although we had a very short small talk.
It's her first day today working day shift again after night shift for almost a year.
I just wished her a good first day at work. Interesting how she made herself pretty this morning...she never really used to. But I noticed she's doing it for a while now.
Gotta keep going and focus but I'm happy with this morning bc usually mornings are the toughest times for me.
Try not to over analyze your observations of her during this period. Focus more on yourself and what you need to be doing as part of your DB plans. If it's been a couple of years whats a couple more to several months on a strict DB and self improvement plan?
Keep in mind she still might not turn a direction favorable for you, but it is a better chance of it than what you were doing without a plan.
Also you will be further ahead in life by doing the things you need to do. The best DB'ing efforts come from a strong 180 and getting so much into your life and what you want to do that you aren't even concerned about what she is doing.
Maybe and just maybe she will wonder what the heck are you doing that is taking all your attention away.
I know, I know I have to focus on myself now, and I actually am in very good DB mode and my approach changed drastically.
- But (yes the good old BUT) the more I review the situation (and I still am, in my head, unfortunately) the more legit I see Ws and OMs relationship.
They love each other. W is HEAD OVER HEELS (!!!) in love with him and he seems very legit about her, even respecting her still being married, he even has guilt (but if he is that legit about her he must think "well she did this to him and it's a horrible thing, who says she isn't going to do this to me one day?). While W is the more 'active' one who wants to make it real but M is still in the way. She actually moved to day-shift to be around him more.
My gut is just telling me HOW REAL this is...not good. There is no light at the end of the tunnel, at all. The only light I see is improving myself. It's the best thing that could've ever happened to me, I believe that. And I will do that.
And I guess a year of self improvement really is not a year in jail. It is a good thing.
At least I know my situation well, it is better than guessing. It helped me to move on.
I need to get my mind over this. ASAP!
I ordered 3 sessions DB Coaching and have my first one tomorrow. Thank god I have a therapy session with a psychiatrist in 3 hours...
OH GOD HELP - mental throwback
Hi Complex
I wouldn't worry too much about how serious the R appears to be. Many people in A's seem to be head over hills in love with each other. They often think they have met their true soul mate etc. But part of this is that the A is based on fantasy (disney love) rather than reality.
Once reality seeps in, the excitement drains away and there's nothing much left, because the R was never built on reliable foundations like a 'normal' R. The stats are that only around 1-3% of A's lead to M, and of those, 75% end in D. Dismal stats if you're having an A. In contrast, around 70% of R's survive A's.
I hope this helps, and try not to worry about how 'serious' it all looks...
My gut is just telling me HOW REAL this is...not good.
Your gut is wrong. Toots has it right.
Complex, your biggest challenge right now is detaching. Letting go. Realizing that nothing you can say will impact what your W does. But this is what you must do, or you will drive yourself mad.
This is very difficult, the hardest thing to do once an A is discovered. Your fastest recovery and position of greatest impact is a position of calm, peaceful, objective reason, not one of emotional reaction to W's every move.
Sounds impossible, but stop thinking about them and how perfect they are. They are obviously both quite broken. Anytime you start thinking about them, STOP, and then start thinking about what you need to do for you.
Hi Complex
I wouldn't worry too much about how serious the R appears to be. Many people in A's seem to be head over hills in love with each other. They often think they have met their true soul mate etc. But part of this is that the A is based on fantasy (disney love) rather than reality.
Once reality seeps in, the excitement drains away and there's nothing much left, because the R was never built on reliable foundations like a 'normal' R. The stats are that only around 1-3% of A's lead to M, and of those, 75% end in D. Dismal stats if you're having an A. In contrast, around 70% of R's survive A's.
I hope this helps, and try not to worry about how 'serious' it all looks...
A betrayed can speed up that "reality" by pulling all of their financial and emotional support and allow the WAS to fully depend on the AP for that type of support.
Complex,
After texting OW obsessively for just a month (after getting to know her over a few months at the grocery store she worked at), my H started professing his undying love to her. He texted her ALL DAY, EVERY DAY - mostly consisting of: "I love you," "I love you so much," "OMG, you're awesome, and I love you so much" - and he even eventually left our M of 10 years and our children to pursue his "unquenchable" love and desire for OW.
From where I sat, they appeared madly in love. And my M appeared finally doomed.
Fast-forward two months: H was back home, completely humiliated. In all our many conversations since he's been home, he talks of how he was never in love with her. He was in love with *how she made him feel about himself.*
DO NOT believe what your eyes see or what your ears hear while your W is in an A.
Believe, instead, what Toots and zew are saying. They're spot on.
Got it. I feel better already. GAL full force. Staying busy.
That is crazy statistics. Makes me feel better. But actually their R HAS a foundation that they are friends for a long time and always like each other a lot but no one ever made a move.
But I don't know how that plays into it. It is just a work based friendship and the life in a R is a completely different ballpark.
The other thing is the love between me and my wife also had no foundation. And it never really built one. That is what we missed out on. Both our faults...we did not make an effort to truly built on our romantic love....call it "we were young, inexperienced"...
Plus the fact that we are only married 2 years. No kids.
The majority of As start in the workplace. I think it is easy to find someone very attractive at work. Plenty of chances to interact and see people doing things well etc...
But take that into a different context and everything changes - and you are quite right, life in a R with someone is a completely different ballpark. Particularly if they are M already.
I know it's hard (been there!) but try not to worry about what is happening with them right now - we know how this plays out in most cases!
Look after you, and things will slowly fall into place whatever way. Good for you on the GAL front. I'm building up my GAL at the moment. Start a new yoga class this week :-)
Wow. I just found this in my car. My boss & mentor used my car this weekend.
He must've left it for me...
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http://s9.postimg.org/lu2fxy7hb/image.jpg[/img]
Thank you Toots.
I hope you'll be fine too. GAL seems easy at first, the hardest part is the endurance we have to bring up I think.
We have to find our OLD SELF again. I wasn't myself anymore. I noticed a long time ago. But there was no way out. First no good R with W, then BD...then downhill from there.
I think I finally found the old ME again. I'm not gonna lie, I know I'll fall back and feel horrible again...it's probably going to be a long process. But I see who I am again - which feels great.
God, my Therapist appointment is NEXT Monday, found out when I got there.
And I went to College earlier to get some counseling regarding courses, and that was closed too due to the Holiday.
Fail fail...oh well I can still go to the gym and meet with friends later^^
I feel bipolar tho. I'm so upbeat then completely down...
If I were you I'll not discuss green card or citizenship with her anymore. She will use that as bargain chip to get what she want (divorce without consequences for her actions). Not saying your marriage will end but You can always get your permanent residency and citizenship with or without her. All you need is proof of the affair.
I'm Not sure of this at all. How is it relevant to the green card issue? It's not even a grounds for divorce in most states.
(Hey, I'm Just asking.)
Yes. I think I should not make a big deal out of it. But the topic wil come up. She will ask for sure what the status is soon. I'll just tell her I'm taking care of it and that she shouldn't worry!?
Complex, for God's sake, see a lawyer in your state, so you know these answers BEFORE you make a strategy for any of this^^...
Make sense?
God, my Therapist appointment is NEXT Monday, found out when I got there.
And I went to College earlier to get some counseling regarding courses, and that was closed too due to the Holiday.
Fail fail...oh well I can still go to the gym and meet with friends later^^
I feel bipolar tho. I'm so upbeat then completely down...
Your workouts will help you. You cannot use her viewpoint as any basis of how you perceive yourself or your confidence. What she has done is on her. By being detached it means that this what was wife is just a female contact of yours who may or may not betray or lie to you at any time.
Carry on as such, I wouldn't have her in any of your sensitive matters.
I don't have a strategy yet. I just did some research. Basically before the renewal (10 year GC) your case will be reviewed but in most cases of the intentions where there granted. After the renewal it doesn't matter anymore.
And I think Starkys advice is very good to act in my own interest. That means: She thinks we need to wait. Which buys me time. And I'll take what I can get to stretch the process and not end up D within the next couple of months
I have an appointment with Denise (DB coach) tomorrow morning.
I'll let you know how it was.
I hope she can give me good advice and some fresh ideas and filter the things out that I didn't get advice on yet.
Had a good GAL day. But I'll be at home tonight, W will be there too.
Should I even ask how her first day at day shift was or tell her anything about mine?
I feel like I just should be upbeat if I see her but get out of her way mostly and call it a day!?
Question: Did/is anyone here wear/wearing their wedding ring while DBing??
That's a personal choice. I kept mine on through the process. I felt that if I believed in M then I would show it.
I feel more commited that ever, although I did let go a lot and detached. I feel like I will be fine either way. I have a lot of love to give.
But I'm actually not wearing it since a week, I don't want W to think I'm still attached. I bet she does anyway tho.
Anyone else who's still wearing it?
I have an appointment with Denise (DB coach) tomorrow morning.
I'll let you know how it was.
I hope she can give me good advice and some fresh ideas and filter the things out that I didn't get advice on yet.
Had a good GAL day. But I'll be at home tonight, W will be there too.
Should I even ask how her first day at day shift was or tell her anything about mine?
I feel like I just should be upbeat if I see her but get out of her way mostly and call it a day!?
Never be rude. It never reflects well on you and it's a lousy thing to do. Plus, you don't want to make her feel good about her choice to end the marriage.
Remember that your behavior ought to Contrast with what SHE thinks about you.
You want to counter her negative images, with positives about you. That's why if you had a trait like always being late, you'd want to be VERY punctual or early for things just to shake her views and get her to start wondering if maybe, just maybe, her data about you isn't real or valid (or at least isn't true anymore).
Does that ^^ make sense to you?
Some of this all depends on how you normally behaved and how she normally behaves. Does she normally regale you with tales from work, or does she give brief answers and talk about other things? Do You normally want details and anecdotes or do you go into Your day? I'm not judging, just asking what will seem more natural to her and what would be authentic for you, AND WITH a PMA?
It's important to show self confidence in yourself. Know that you are a great catch; you will be available to her and you are NOT depressive or "settling" for your life anymore.
Someday you might want to thank her for waking you up and getting you back on track. Ask the DB coach about that b/c I might be wrong. But to ME, if my h said something like that, it would strike a chord.
My DB coach to "listen like a lover"< which can be extremely difficult and never applied to OW or anything known to be a threat to the marriage.
So if she brings up work OR if you do,
and IF YOU can handle information that might relate to the OM,
then go for it. But be ready to 1) ask follow up questions that show you are listening to her carefully and are interested in HER,
OR
2) IF she brings up OM for some reason...be ready to say nothing in response,
OR
3) give a Starsky response, such as "W, at best, it's disrespectful of you to speak to me of OM, so kindly stop."
THEN you leave the room. You don't wait for her answer (b/c it's not a question).
You leave the room and start a project or take a shower or go jogging or whatever it is that gets you OUT of there - so you demonstrate that the behavior is unacceptable to you and that you won't negotiate it or debate it OR lose your temper.
Do Not lose your temper. Anger isn't your friend, or at least showing anger, isn't.
You are above all that...
For more insights or advice, I think this ^^ is something your coach can advise you well on.
Don't confuse detachment with standing for your M.
Leaving your ring on shows everyone that you still proclaim that you are married. Being detached means that you have stopped letting your wife's words and actions dictate how you will proceed from this point. (and you have much work to do to become detached). Your ring has nothing to do with detachment.
You don't take your ring off to show your W anything - you cannot possibly know how she will interpret that one way or the other. A ring is a personal statement made by the person wearing it, and this has been true since the day you first put it on. Don't worry about what your W may think it means; I could argue bad wayward logic that would make you believe either choice is correct.
As Bond said, it's a personal decision. Many of us have asked the same question at some point. For me, it's clear. I wear my ring because I am married; it's a symbol of the eternal nature of my vows. I will wear it until I am no longer married.
Zew. Thanks!
You expressed what I was thinking. Ring back on!
Talking about commitment: Today I committed myself to LOVE, the people around me and myself.
I have an appointment with Denise (DB coach) tomorrow morning.
I'll let you know how it was.
I hope she can give me good advice and some fresh ideas and filter the things out that I didn't get advice on yet.
Had a good GAL day. But I'll be at home tonight, W will be there too.
Should I even ask how her first day at day shift was or tell her anything about mine?
I feel like I just should be upbeat if I see her but get out of her way mostly and call it a day!?
Never be rude. It never reflects well on you and it's a lousy thing to do. Plus, you don't want to make her feel good about her choice to end the marriage.
Got it. It's about being upbeat, friendly, happy, without compromising my own boundaries (which is still have to define better) or being a shoemat. With confidence and strength.
Remember that your behavior ought to Contrast with what SHE thinks about you.
You want to counter her negative images, with positives about you. That's why if you had a trait like always being late, you'd want to be VERY punctual or early for things just to shake her views and get her to start wondering if maybe, just maybe, her data about you isn't real or valid (or at least isn't true anymore).
Does that ^^ make sense to you?
I understand the psychological concept. I really have to sit down and analyze what my weaknesses are / find out what are didn't like about me. Biggest part of the last few months for sure:
Pursuing, Questioning her thoughts, Not listening well. Bringing up the same issues over and over again. Saying things and not following through. Saying too many things. Being too theoretical, not practical and active enough, doing things for her only - not for myself, no passion for career, being too negative (a german thing), complaining too much, being narrow minded and stubborn wanting to do things my way, not letting her be herself, groping her, bring not enough of a gentleman, just wanting sex.....the list is loooong - I'm also focusing on being the guy I was when we fell in love
Some of this all depends on how you normally behaved and how she normally behaves. Does she normally regale you with tales from work, or does she give brief answers and talk about other things? Do You normally want details and anecdotes or do you go into Your day? I'm not judging, just asking what will seem more natural to her and what would be authentic for you, AND WITH a PMA?
While ago she complained I'm not listening. Since a while I've been listening very well when she tells me about work. A little 180 I've done. I'm always interested and natural. Didn't help bc it was only one of many things ...and nothing but OM in her head anyway...We never talk about OM. She just told me she loves him and that's that. But only after the pressure of finding out. She isn't open to me at all.
It's important to show self confidence in yourself. Know that you are a great catch; you will be available to her and you are NOT depressive or "settling" for your life anymore.
Someday you might want to thank her for waking you up and getting you back on track. Ask the DB coach about that b/c I might be wrong. But to ME, if my h said something like that, it would strike a chord.
Problem with this is I already did. But I wasn't ready. I wasn't in the same state of mind..and maybe I still aren't. Lost my credibility with many things I said. So I need to follow through with actions before I can say something like this again. W is way out the door with OM right now anyway. But I'll ask my coach about it.
My DB coach to "listen like a lover"< which can be extremely difficult and never applied to OW or anything known to be a threat to the marriage.
So if she brings up work OR if you do,
and IF YOU can handle information that might relate to the OM,
then go for it. But be ready to 1) ask follow up questions that show you are listening to her carefully and are interested in HER,
OR
2) IF she brings up OM for some reason...be ready to say nothing in response,
OR
3) give a Starsky response, such as "W, at best, it's disrespectful of you to speak to me of OM, so kindly stop."
THEN you leave the room. You don't wait for her answer (b/c it's not a question).
You leave the room and start a project or take a shower or go jogging or whatever it is that gets you OUT of there - so you demonstrate that the behavior is unacceptable to you and that you won't negotiate it or debate it OR lose your temper.
Ok. That's good technical advice. No OM talk...other than that listen like a lover. Which won't be too hard .
Do Not lose your temper. Anger isn't your friend, or at least showing anger, isn't.
You are above all that...
I was there. It made things even worse than pursuing. Anger and hatred are gone. They will come back occasionally but I have to control myself. Do a 180 ad get out of the house and run as fast as I can before I do/say sth stupid.
For more insights or advice, I think this ^^ is something your coach can advise you well on.
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Thank you!
Wife came home tonight..thought she is going to sports class and then to her friend watch The Bachelor^^.
I was watching Netflix. She ate, sat down on the couch next to me, played with her phone, asked some questions about the movie and if I want some food. Didn't ask me how my day was. Now she's lying next to me asleep.
I'm sure she's just thinking she needs to let me alone figure my things out and in her head is nothing else but OM. But those are only assumptions I guess.
I'll just go to bed soon.
Another question: she's currently sleeping in the guest room bc I told her I don't want to and she's doing me the favor. Should I offer to sleep there (it's my office anyway) or just let it be and let her sleep there???
Another question: she's currently sleeping in the guest room bc I told her I don't want to and she's doing me the favor. Should I offer to sleep there (it's my office anyway) or just let it be and let her sleep there???
You are the stable force in the M, right? You didn't leave her, right? Who should bear the inconvenience of their actions?
I am now after I hit rock bottom. Before I was so angry and confused. I even downloaded a dating app just over a week ago out of desperation for acknowledgment. Which she found out and accused me of a double standard. And she was right.
I deleted it again and decided to stand for for my own values and my committment.
Now I just have to continue to DB and love until she hopefully notices my changes. It will take time. In the meantime she probably thinks all her actions are justified now.
I feel bad this morning. Hardly got out of bed. Maybe also because I worked out yesterday.
The main problem I have is my stomach. It's in constant pain. Like painful butterflies. For over a week now, it doesn't stop at all and makes me feel very numb. I don't eat nearly as much as I used to. First few days after rock bottom I hardky ate anything...
Any thoughts on this?
Completely different approach.
I feel like a doormat this morning. W is still in complete denial, not telling me anything and hiding her A from everyone else too.
I am now 100% sure W wants to make the A "legit" and "real love" first and get the confirmation from OM so everyone (family, friends, me) will "understand" and then time will heal it. That is her approach, which is ...........well we all know.
I will ask Denise what she thinks.
I am strong still but that I am the doormat here sinks in more and more.
I want to do this right, the loving way. And I don't want to do anything stupid. Timing doesn't seem right now. She will think I am extremely selfish and it might kill the A but drive me far far away and also jeopardize my safe citizenship, although I am almost certain she wouldn't do this to me, and if she would, that is all I need to know.
I will get multiple opinions on this before I do ANYTHING.
So can I please have your guys' too?
Any thoughts on this?
Any thoughts on----On your stomach pain?
The "DB diet" also known as the "Grief induced weight loss" is common here. We all tend to lose weight.
But that's not to say you shouldn't get it checked out or treated. I think a visit to the doctor's is a good idea. Tell them what is going on and see what they say.
Completely different approach.
wait, what?
Why? You have not done ANY DB approach for more than an hour. You have to choose something and stick to it for months before you can assess how it is working. If you keep changing your mind and your approach, no wonder nothing is working.
Do you see how "uncommitted" and undisciplined that looks and how that is the "same old you"??
I feel like a doormat this morning. W is still in complete denial, not telling me anything and hiding her A from everyone else too.
What is there for HER to say? She thinks she "loves OM" and she has admitted that to you. Why would she shout that out to the world while the marriage to you is still legal? And frankly Complex, her telling the world is worse for YOU.
DO you get that? The more she tells the world, then the more committed to OM she is.
Do NOT Push her into solidifying their relationship or publicizing it.
That's a bad idea and does NOT HELP YOU.
.
I am now 100% sure W wants to make the A "legit" and "real love" first and get the confirmation from OM so everyone (family, friends, me) will "understand" and then time will heal it. That is her approach, which is ...........well we all know.
I will ask Denise what she thinks.
Please do.
I am strong still but that I am the doormat here sinks in more and more.
I want to do this right, the loving way. And I don't want to do anything stupid.
then stop vacillating, (changing your mind and your approach) and stick to an approach for some real TIME.
Timing doesn't seem right now. She will think I am extremely selfish and it might kill the A but drive me far far away and also jeopardize my safe citizenship, although I am almost certain she wouldn't do this to me, and if she would, that is all I need to know.
I will get multiple opinions on this before I do ANYTHING.
So can I please have your guys' too?
What are you asking, specifically?
25, let me help out here...
Any thoughts on this?
<deleted reference to an article that advocates affair exposure>
Completely different approach
Complex, DB does not advocate exposure of the A. I happen to agree (after exposing the A myself, of course). It never turns out the way you planned. You have to accept the fact that you cannot remedy this whole situation with quick fixes like exposing the A.
25year.
I actually posted a link, which seem to got deleted by the admin. Maybe it was against the rules.
There is another approach out there to BIG TIME expose the affair and blow everything up.
But I am not sure if I like that. It is such a dramatic approach. And I am not sure Jesus would do that...
Sry for posting the link. I guess I didn't read the board rules. Just wanted to have an opinion on it,...one that I actually already had myself. It just doesn't feel right to do such thing.
Glad I ended up in the right place, with people having the hearts in the right spot.
So back to the topic after my mistake of posting something I shouldn't have.
NO exposing myself and NO pushing W to expose herself. It totally makes sense that it will just make her commit to OM.
It is hard tho, especially when you know that she is lying to you and her purpose is to justify A.
DB Coach told me to even not leak any details if family is asking me for reasons. It is a VERY respectful approach. And I agree things might backfire. And in the end everyone will see the reasons anyway. The temptation is immense to make family oppose D. And I am sure they will anyway, but the pressure won't help. Whatever you tell them needs to be done very cautious with a LOT of respect and love.
If they are good people they might talk to her anyway to at least look at the different alleys she can go.
And She actually said she is tending towards me saying NOTHING if she brings up D or OM. Because if I do state my position on this (that I do not agree and support that) then she might just say "yes, and that's why we can't be together".
I did not find an answer to
I am now 100% sure W wants to make the A "legit" and "real love" first and get the confirmation from OM so everyone (family, friends, me) will "understand" and then time will heal it. That is her approach, which is ...........well we all know.
So all she is doing right now is trying to find an "easy" way to get OM in her life and make everything "look good" at the same time.
She still must be confused trying to figure things out herself. Otherwise I'd think she could just tell everyone and anyone and be done with it. It's ridiculous how she actually awaits "confirmation" from OM. DB coach told me it sounds like there is a "challenge" for her to "get him", but also that these kind of R are generally doomed to fail, which we all know.
Eventually she will realize that how she did it was the wrong way and it's likely their R will fail and she will be alone. If she will be happy for the rest of her life, so be it. After all I love her from the bottom of my heart.
I am excited how everything will come together the next couple months or so...and how I (!!!) will come together.
The Coaching session first didn't feel like I gained a whole lot of new information, I mostly learned a lot about MYSELF, because I recorded the session via Skype and re listened to it. It is AWESOME to hear your own words and then the "reaction" of the coach, knowing exactly what you are actually saying and how you still are "stuck" in your hear with your thought and not detached enough!
If you do coaching, record it and listen to it, you will be surprised by yourself.
Since I told my boss/friend, and some of my friends and also parents I get bombarded with different opinions.
I stayed firm on the DB techniques (I didn't specify) and told them I want to do it the "right" way. Because I married my wife for a reason and I will take this opportunity to become a better person, with or without her. I'm moving forward but I'm not "giving up" so at the end of my life I can say to myself I did everything I can, no regrets.
But there are wide opinions of course, from "she's crazy, it's terribly wrong how what she is doing", to "ask her to do counseling", "you guys have to TALK". I agree on everything everyone is saying (only my mentor and parents know all details) but regardless I am defending her and my marriage. It feels like the right thing to do.
One advice I'll probably take and see a lawyer just to get informed about my legal situation.
I think I am completely on the right track with my heart.
The only thing I am definitely struggling with is boundaries, and that I sometimes feel like a door mat....and the never ending pain. Especially knowing that my wife is still doing things terribly wrong, and I know she's better than this. I KNOW that when she realizes that I'm not so bad after all and a great person that is moving into the right direction with big steps, she will open up to me again.
If it's going to save our marriage??? ....that I don't know.
Unless she is understanding many of the things that I've recently learned and opening her heart I could not go back into a R with her. And like I said..I'm moving to a pessimistic point of view on how everything will play out. It's such a sad thing
Marriage means nothing anymore in this world
How do you deal with friend and family "advice"?
And in general...how did/do you keep yourself ALIVE?^^
Btw, yesterday when my wife was lying on the couch sleeping, I looked at her and she looked kinda cute, but she also looked like a very weak & confused person.
Do WAWs actually ever reach a breaking point where they think they are completely nuts and they get depressed and question everything they are doing?
Since I told my boss/friend, and some of my friends and also parents I get bombarded with different opinions.
I stayed firm on the DB techniques (I didn't specify) and told them I want to do it the "right" way. Because I married my wife for a reason and I will take this opportunity to become a better person, with or without her. I'm moving forward but I'm not "giving up" so at the end of my life I can say to myself I did everything I can, no regrets.
But there are wide opinions of course, from "she's crazy, it's terribly wrong how what she is doing", to "ask her to do counseling", "you guys have to TALK". I agree on everything everyone is saying (only my mentor and parents know all details) but regardless I am defending her and my marriage. It feels like the right thing to do.
One advice I'll probably take and see a lawyer just to get informed about my legal situation.
I think I am completely on the right track with my heart.
The only thing I am definitely struggling with is boundaries, and that I sometimes feel like a door mat....and the never ending pain. Especially knowing that my wife is still doing things terribly wrong, and I know she's better than this. I KNOW that when she realizes that I'm not so bad after all and a great person that is moving into the right direction with big steps, she will open up to me again.
If it's going to save our marriage??? ....that I don't know.
Unless she is understanding many of the things that I've recently learned and opening her heart I could not go back into a R with her. And like I said..I'm moving to a pessimistic point of view on how everything will play out. It's such a sad thing
Marriage means nothing anymore in this world
How do you deal with friend and family "advice"?
And in general...how did/do you keep yourself ALIVE?^^
Btw, yesterday when my wife was lying on the couch sleeping, I looked at her and she looked kinda cute, but she also looked like a very weak & confused person.
Do WAWs actually ever reach a breaking point where they think they are completely nuts and they get depressed and question everything they are doing?
I would stick to DB coaches and people who know these situations. Don't try to validate with the world, they don't usually understand properly. Your going to be fine with or without the wife. I hope you can accept that.
Hm strange things happen when you don't expect them.
W came home. Getting me into a conversation. Asking how I am doing, because we didn't talk in a while. I told her I am doing well. She was outgoing and upbeat.
Then she asks "why are you still wearing your ring, do you still think we are married?". That caught me totally off guard. I told her "Uhm, good question...I know that we don't have a R anymore, and you can do whatever you like. I am not controlling you anymore. But I made a commitment and I see things different than you. But like I said, this is my own opinion, and I'm not controlling you, I just want to do things the right way." (As far as I can remember the conversation). I was very calm and strong.
She told me she is proud of me taking college classes and if she can give me a hug. I said ok.
And she told me she is sorry for killing my trust in her. And I responded I am sorry for snooping. Then she said it's the truth she really only talked to him and they never met outside of work (which I all know anyway). And I said "I believe you".
Now she is fussing around with her phone. I saw a text popping up from her best friend (the D one). Didn't read it. But I know she is talking to her about my reactions and what I'm doing. And her friend will just be like "ya he wants to save your marriage, he isn't over it, now he's changing for you".
But I guess that's standard script. I just have to keep going and detach.
Because I still believe what she has done/is doing is extreme disrespectful and she is still "sick".
I cannot let a "good" moment like this get to me at all.
But what is her damn intention in doing this? She just seems to check in on me if I'll be ok without her so she can be with OM.
The thing she should do/should've done is open up to me. But at this point I actually don't even WANT her to do that. Because that would just mean she is fully commited to OM, right?
She is trying to play friends again.
I know I did the right thing today, but I don't know if I want to serve her like this anymore. I KNOW at some point she will come out like "I truly love OM, it's real love, so you can't be mad, because I'll be happy". I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO. I don't see anything can prevent this. I know she made a final decision. I can tell.
Does anyone know what the psychology is behind her actions today?
And was I too nice?
She's addicted to OM. As long as you don't interfere with her addiction, she'll be appease you. Maybe even through you a hug for being a good guy. If you confront, expose or otherwise interfere with her affair or try to make her feel bad for committing adultery, she'll be upset with you and punish you.
Also..realize YOU are not her focus of attention ~~~~OM is. Thus, she maybe she needs to tell OM she's talked to you and you are all fine with the affair (you told her she could do what she wants) or OM is nervous and your wife perceives that he is getting upset about you knowing about them and possibly spreading gossip about him and hurting his reputation. Your wife is being nice to you to help calm OM down and reassure OM that she has you under control.
Or...
Who knows. She's an active cheater...she could be in a good mood because OM broke up with his wife or girlfriend to be with her (supposedly) or OM had sex with her an hour before she got home and she's on cloud nine and unwilling to allow you to ruin the moment so she acts happy.
The point is...she's acting in her own self interest without real concern for you or your feelings whatsoever.
Were you too nice??? Nice is OK. It's better than yelling and being angry. Neither gets you very far towards recovering your marriage. Until the affair is over and no contact is established you are stuck, waiting for the affair to die. However, yelling and screaming actually make your situation worse and merely feed into her justifications and rationalizations. So being nice is OK...just don't overdo it by saying things like "go ahead and you are free to have all the extramarital sex you want" and perhaps "I am not your keeper, the cage door is open and you are free to leave anytime you want". Yours condones adultery, whereas the later just confirms that you are not her jail master...that she can pack a bag and go right then and there if she pleases.
NO exposing myself and NO pushing W to expose herself.
In der Übersetzung verloren.
It's the
affair you don't want to expose.
Exposing
yourself will get you into different trouble.
NO exposing myself and NO pushing W to expose herself.
In der Übersetzung verloren.
It's the
affair you don't want to expose.
Exposing
yourself will get you into different trouble.
Ha ok.
What a bad day I am having. It's all so fresh, I came to realize how attached I still am.
For a while I didn't really cry but everything is settling now it feels like and I've been crying all day. I just see that it's just really over. No more W, no more her Family. This is so hard. And mine is so far away..I don't have many friends here yet, mostly mutual.
Hi Complex, just realised I posted a big reply to you on my threads....sorry about that. I'll post on yours in future!
Toots :-)
No worries. I read it. Thank you so much!!!
BD actually was very horrible but I was in denial and me and W still had a life and she actually tried for a month.
Finding out what the real reason was/is (big EA) was way harder, and that she lied to me and still does. And that is still very fresh.
I wonder today if I should ask for her to be open to me to stop my pain and tell her that I want her to be truthful at least. She might actually do it. I guess it's against DB bc it's validating the A. But I feel like it's over anyway and I might as well get it over with and let her tell me why she's doing all this.
Honesty would feel very good right now.
I hope someone reads what happened yesterday and is able to give me some advise on my lasts posts.
Love,
Complex
No worries. I read it. Thank you so much!!!
BD actually was very horrible but I was in denial and me and W still had a life and she actually tried for a month.
Finding out what the real reason was/is (big EA) was way harder, and that she lied to me and still does. And that is still very fresh.
Sorry to hammer this, but the "real reason" are the reasons YOU Listed elsewhere. The A is a symptom of the marital problems, NOT the cause.
Deep down you already know this.
When you remember this^^ and remind yourself of it every single day if you must,
is so you will stay focussed on YOUR Work and YOUR Issues and NOT deflect your attention away from that and onto OM.
He's NOT your issue. Don't lose sight of that. Embrace the face that you are who you must work on b/c that is empowering.
I wonder today if I should ask for her to be open to me to stop my pain and tell her that I want her to be truthful at least.
Stop.
You are getting frantic to "do SOMETHING" and that's NOT advisable. Listen to the tape of the DB coach session 5 more times and calm yourself down. Go back to YOUR OWN Program and work it.
Stop pretending that her telling you how SHE Feels about OM will "Stop" your pain. I promise you that it will NOT stop your pain; it'll increase it. And annoy her AND it's also NOT in alignment with your DB program...remember?
How long have you done ANY single approach? Has it even lasted a few days?
No wonder she has trouble believing you are changing. No offense but the more you make this about OM, the more you are pretending there is nothing YOU can do to improve things. That's not true and that's not a position of strength.
She might actually do it. I guess it's against DB bc it's validating the A. But
Look at your words...you know it's against DBing BUT BUT BUT..."
"but" means to negate whatever you said just before. Stop this complex. Really, get a grip on yourself.
Get back on track and STAY on track.
I feel like it's over anyway and I might as well get it over with and let her tell me why she's doing all this.
Honesty would feel very good right now.
What is it you are pretending not to know?
According to her (and according to you)
You got depressed, you stopped working on your career and you became lazy and you seemed to have no direction. You were not as attentive or supportive to her and eventually she felt very burdened and frustrated and then....she met OM.
Why does having her tell you all this, again, or about how great OM is, make you think it would help?
I hope someone reads what happened yesterday and is able to give me some advise on my lasts posts.
Love,
Complex
She isn't cruel and doesn't want to just dump you. But she has feelings of pity for you and compassion. So to YOU she seems confused. MAYBE she is.
IF she is confused, that's great news for you. Stop pressing for more.
You are acting as if the DB coaching taught you nothing. Is that true?
IF you got something out of it, then listen to it again & again and stop making yourself crazy.
Work the program b/c the program works.
You are a good teacher 25yr. At least my thinking is different from my action. So far I did DB wel and I sticked with it. But yeah, you are right. Just a few days. I need to be consistent or it's worth ZERO.
I know he is the symptom of our problems but our problems run very very deep.
We actually might have really failed to ever create the deep connection a M needs to withstand the decades. We lost it after our "romantic" lve and didn't build on it.
Sure IF we survive this, then we have sth to build on. But the only recomcilliation scenario is that OM is completely gone, her friends stops opposing M and we reconnect through her will and her effort. Pretty unrealistic scenario. Going back what we had before doesn't exist. That's not the goal anyway. I just don't see it right now, which is natural I guess.
I will keep working on myself. I wish I could just get out of this deep whole and stop PRETENDING my DB actions, but rather LIVE THEM, become happy through them and have a life again. Then pain is still in the way and the knowledge about the never existing deep connection.
I don't pretend to know, of course I don't know it all, but it's very likely now that W and OM will legitimate their love for each other through "waiting". I know my wife well enough that she actually thought everything through very very well and made it a decision. She is a smart person and pretty reasonably thinking (for most part). She just lacks emotional intelligence, empathy and some ability to show her feelings. Very rational person in general.
With all the self improvement we are doing we can't alao forget that we are humans. And we are GOOD people with big hearts.
I just need that to be said. Bc I keep forgetting that I ALREADY AM a great person.
Btw can you please read my DB encounter from yesterday night? I'm still wondering if I did that ok or if there's anything I could've done differently?
It seems like she is at least wondering how I'm doing after we both being dark for a few days.
The last post 25yr btw I wrote completely devastated crying. It was a rough day again. If you have the time please review the post from yesterday where she asked me why I'm still wearing my ring.
Thank you so much.
W just "friendly reminded" me of the reminder letter for my greencard application. "We should get that done...".
She said it friendly but in a way where I know EXACTLY what she's doing here. She wants to get things over with...she seems very determined.
I'm afraid my time will be limited to make a difference. I know DBing is about me, but if my time is only limited to approximately 2 months before she will want to file for D
I'll stick with my plan for now. Although I know it's not gonna change HER so soon, there's no way. It's just gonna change ME.
Status quo these days: she's coming home at 6. I'm usually home too, doing stuff for college.
I'm still too attached. I try to look as good as I can when she's here.
We usually watch Netflix together for 1-2h then go to bed separately. I usually go first.
She started to complain that I took "her" bedroom and "her" spot on the couch. I don't even respond. Not much communication, but friendly "vibe" but not very natural.
Gone for work the next 4 days. It'll be hard but also help me to detach.
I should be gone once in a while at night, study at the bookstore or something. Just detach and get away from her...
Please please if someone can review the 'why are you wearing your ring' situation. In general I need some more advice on detaching and general communication during the in home separation.
Hi Complex, your thread is probably about to lock, so you may want to get a new one started.
I wouldn't worry so much about the ring situation. It's simple, and all about you (not your W.) If you want to carry on wearing your ring, do it. If you don't want to, take it off.
I stopped wearing my wedding ring at BD. I normally take it off at nights anyway, and just couldn't bear to put it on again. It's a very personal choice and some people want to wear it, some don't. But, I think you're worrying too much about the interaction with your W.
In respect of her, you need to remember that nothing much is going to make anything better right now.....the main thing is to shift the focus onto you, and not make things worse with her - no pressure/pursuit. As for the rings, you had the convo, now let it go and wear/don't wear your ring, whatever is your choice.
Hey complex
My wife took rings off last week as well. It was painful to see. This was pre me confirming the affair. It hurts but it is obviously less painful for her not to wear them. She has since said she misses them and ums and rr's about putting them back on. Now the secret is out i doubt very much she will. Again there is nothing you can do. The more you push the more she will just dig her heals in. I still wear mine. I will continue to wear mine until/if we are not married any more. You need to try and stop talking to her about stuff. Just be friendly and civil. Stop worrying about what she is doing. As it stands she is checked out and you have no control over that. As hard as it is you have to focus on you. Force yourself to do anything that takes even a few minutes of your mind off this situation. keep moving forward.
Hey complex
My wife took rings off last week as well. It was painful to see. This was pre me confirming the affair. It hurts but it is obviously less painful for her not to wear them. She has since said she misses them and ums and rr's about putting them back on. Now the secret is out i doubt very much she will. Again there is nothing you can do. The more you push the more she will just dig her heals in. I still wear mine. I will continue to wear mine until/if we are not married any more. You need to try and stop talking to her about stuff. Just be friendly and civil. Stop worrying about what she is doing. As it stands she is checked out and you have no control over that. As hard as it is you have to focus on you. Force yourself to do anything that takes even a few minutes of your mind off this situation. keep moving forward.
Take off your rings too and don't talk about it. Wearing her ring makes her feel guilty. I was the WAS in a past life. It is conflicting and when you take it off you feel relieved from having to be responsible to it....
The best thing my LBS could have done at that time was cheated on me and didn't request my attention. I would've been analyzing who it is, what it is about them, and when I discovered it was a slimy affair like my own could not justify what I was doing.
Take off your ring, but don't make a big deal about it. Maybe carry it in your pocket so you can see it or wear it around your neck for now...