I have a feeling my old thread,
Take Two, is about to lock up. So I'm starting a new one.
Today is Tuesday, which means I feel a little better now. My Mondays always leave me crazy because H has the kids all day Sunday. And the past two Sundays, I've seen a little more of him than I should have.
No real developments over here.
Sunday, as I've already posted, was a little odd. I'm still scratching my head over the fact that H dropped a tear or two .. and that he said he told OW he needed to come home ... then said he had his own realization that moving back now, and going through therapy, would be a decision he made "out of convenience ... just like in 2005."
Speaking of 2005 - and this is (hopefully) just trauma/flashbacks from then - it occurred to me, after reading another person's thread this morning: Omg. What if OW gets pregnant? I know he isn't/wasn't using protection. And when he told me that she cried and was all messed up when he mentioned needing to "go back home," I thought: Oh no. She's desperate and grasping at straws now. She has given up EVERYTHING for this man - including, very likely, custody of her own D11 - and he's expressing doubts? He's having second thoughts - ALREADY? This, IMO, is what OW 2005 did. She got pregnant when H told her he wanted to move back home, all the while supposedly telling H that she couldn't get pregnant because of medical issues. I don't want to even think about it. But I have to because it's at least a possibility. And one that I've lived. I've decided, though, that it would be a deal-breaker this time. There's no question in my mind.
I'd be lying if I said I also haven't found a little comfort in H's words that he isn't taking all the responsibility for the A now - he has realized that "she didn't have to call (him) back." And I also found out he paid a hefty price to put a mountain bike on layaway. I'm not happy about the expense, mind you, but at least it seems like maybe he's being selfish instead of considering paying for OW's legal fees. Geez. I find "comfort" in some pretty twisted things these days.
When H was here Sunday, he couldn't sit still. He has always hated our house; he bought it when we were dating because I fell in love with it. He also hates yard work. But Sunday, when he clearly was having a hard time just sitting down to drink a beer while watching the kids play, he jumped on the lawnmower and cut my grass for me. With me being an "acts of service" girl, this spelled bad news for the Love Bank. He started cleaning up the back patio, and even at one point said, "I don't know why I care."
I had actually asked H to take D2 to a photo shoot I had scheduled months ago for her. I had made an outfit for her to wear months ago, too. H agreed. But on Sunday, I told him I thought I might follow them there because I wanted to watch D2 with the bunnies and chicks that would be in the pictures with her. (I also wanted to make sure her outfit and hat were on "right" in the photo - H puts her clothes and shoes on backwards ... no joke.) I told him I wouldn't stay the entire time since it was his day with the kids. He texted back, "I'm not allergic to you. It's all good girly girl." (Girly girl? Say wha??) When he got here, he offered for me to ride with him and the kids out there. I hesitated for a while. But D2 got so excited about Mommy riding with them, so I agreed. It was fine. A little small talk, maybe. H helped out so much at the photo shoot, as usual. He's an incredible dad and has always been such a help to me with the kids.
He stayed here, working on S7's outdoor project, because he couldn't take the kids to his place since his roommate had to sleep for work that night. At one point, I was out watching D2 so H and S7 could work, which required a tall ladder. D2 kept trying to climb it, so I offered to keep her occupied outside so the boys could work without interruptions but, more importantly, so D2 wouldn't get hurt. D2 wanted to go inside, so I told them we were heading in. H said, "Why do *you* have to go in? D16 can watch her inside." In my mind, I was like: Oh! He wants my company!
Ugh. I'm so lame.
Yesterday was just ... whatever. A typical Monday of me thinking: What am I doing? Should I go completely dark? Should I put an intermediary in place to handle things with the kids? Am I ready for that? Is that the approach that is best for me and this sitch? My mind goes CRAZY with questions and second-thoughts and doubts on Mondays. Plus, it was cold and rainy yesterday. That's never good for the ol' PMA.
Today, H had to take me at lunch to pick up my car after it was inspected. I could not find anyone else who could do it, and I had to have someone with car seats in their cars for the kids. If he couldn't do it, I'd be without my car for at least another day. He seemed totally fine with helping and even told me to give the garage his number in case anything turned up wrong with the car. It was a quick trip. He DID say something inappropriate, out loud to me, about a neighbor's behind as we drove by. And I promptly told him it was inappropriate to say in front of his W. He asked if he could have the kids Wednesday instead of Thursday this week. I told him that's not a problem. We talked briefly about his parents coming to town this weekend ... and prom on Saturday for Ds 16 & 17. H wants to watch them walk into prom, so I'm trying to coordinate times. (And the good news is he has plans all day Sunday, his bday, with the kids and his parents. So I won't have to worry about seeing him Sunday. That's good.)
But despite things seeming sort of calm, H texted a little while ago to ask for L's email address so he can respond to "his/your proposal."
More of this:
Back to reality.
I mean, I'm okay with it. I really have come a long way with detaching from his crazy. It seems I'm operating better in the face of his "ups and downs."
I wrote a letter last night to, well, myself. I wrote it with someone else in mind as the recipient, though. That made me better able to be thorough and open and honest. It's basically a letter to help me remember how I'm allowing him to make me feel: worthless, useless and like trash kicked to the curb. And it's a letter that talks about the kind of person I deserve in my life. I can't say it was "healing," per se. It actually made me mad as I wrote it. I got mad because I saw - right there in black and white - how much crap I have put up with and haven't deserved. And I have continued to love him? How? How does that work? How does that even make sense?
I should add:
Re: H saying he needs to go back home, he and I BOTH agree that him moving back home - even if he ends the A - is not a good idea. Even when I told him that I'd be willing to roll up my sleeves and work to save our M, starting from scratch, I told him we don't have to live together to do that.
I think, even IF the time comes that H ends his A and wants to talk about R, we should stay S for a while. Those are just my rambling thoughts, which are stupid to even have right now, considering he told me flat-out that moving back would be "out of convenience," and he's still clearly moving forward on the S/D ...
I wish your pain would go away! Look at the baby steps you are getting though, he wants to spend time with you, he is doubting the A..... keep sight of your goal.
My H is very nice to me but is consistent that he loves and wants to marry ow and can't wait to divorce me. I know it sounds weird but I think I would love to have the back/forth that you were able to obtain. Keep your head up and keep paying.
Even when I told him that I'd be willing to roll up my sleeves and work to save our M, starting from scratch, I told him we don't have to live together to do that.
I think this is
very wise, Train.
Starsky
Thanks, Starsky. I really feel, in my heart of hearts, that we both need some time away from one another to sort things out, if it ever comes to that. If we ever want to TRY, I'd like to date again. It'd be a nice change from the norm for me to have H take time for me and pursue me a little. I just wish I felt more of a commitment from him - even just a tad. I wish he would give me any indication that he thinks I am (we are) worth it.
twin, I see what you're saying. And I know my sitch could seem SO much worse and more hopeless. I guess my fear is that I'm in danger of being in the "friend zone." I don't FEEL like either H or I look at each other as friends. He's still clearly very sexually attracted to me; he even asked on Sunday if L had provided a definition of "which kind" of sex we should abstain from. Lol. I just said: "All of the above." But men, I think, are perfectly fine having relationships with women that are "friends with benefits." And I'm sure I offer H familiarity and comfort and intimacy whereas OW has provided passion and fire. We actually talked Sunday for a minute or two about the couple of weeks he and I continued to ML after I found out about the A but thought it was "text-only." I mentioned it was great to me, probably because of the intense feelings of desperation and clinging to hold on to something that's slipping through my fingers. And so, I said, it was probably just ME that thought it was so good. And he said, "Nah. It was good."
I don't even remember when we got on that subject, or how. It ended as quickly as it began.
If he was half as interested in pursuing emotional intimacy with me as he is in pursuing physical intimacy, we'd be good to go right now.
But either way we slice it - whether H is interested in sex and a little bit of company once a week, or interested in D and marrying OW - we don't have our Hs with us. They're not committed. And both situations come with pros and cons. At the end of the day, though, we're both pretty much empty-handed. And that blows.
Every time my email "pings" today, I get a
feeling in my stomach; waiting to hear from L, who will be delivering whatever "counter-offer" H has provided.
Meanwhile, to toughen myself up a little so I don't play too nice with all this legal maneuvering as it's occurring, I looked back through the snapshots of the texts bw H & OW that I "scored" in late February.
Whew. That was ROUGH. Again.
Not sure if that's the smartest way to stiffen a backbone.
Is there a friend that can be there with you today? Instead of torturing yourself with the texts maybe some good company?
Good call, twin. I DID get in touch with a friend ... and never heard from L yesterday. So another day of waiting for that e-mail ...
More weirdness ...
H picked up the kids yesterday for his afternoon with them. When he pulled in the driveway, he tore through the backyard (very typical behavior of his when he's in one of his manic moods). He got out of his car, laughing all sinister-ish, and said a really bad word (right in front of D16), noting how messed up the driveway was. (The kids had been playing outside, and I hadn't cleaned up their bikes, etc. yet.) He started cleaning up and said: "Every time I come home, there's sh!t everywhere!" I got three words out - "This isn't your ... " - before I remembered to bite my tongue. (This was sort of reminiscent of him being here, straightening up the patio and mowing my grass Sunday, btw.) I'm trying to get better at being a smarta$s (as in, I'm trying not to be one - ha). So I instead said: "I can clean it; don't worry with it. The kids have been playing outside today."
He acted like he was in such a great (again, manic-like) mood. He wasn't nice to ME. But he was acting very hyper. Like, really weird. And manic.
He left with the kids, and I swear D16 and I spent 5 minutes just staring at each other and shaking our heads in disbelief. It was so odd (typical of H sometimes, though) and definitely different from how he was acting Sunday. I just let it roll off my back.
I contacted a friend to meet up and hang out for a while. The friend was working but was sort of "on-call." We hung out for a little bit, then he was called into work. He said he might swing by later.
Meanwhile, H texted and told me he was on his way home with the kids. S7 texted me from his dad's phone, asking if I was home. I replied, "Yep. For now I am. I might be hanging with a friend for a little bit later, but I'll be nearby. I got 'dumped' by my friend for a job that had to be done a little while ago. I'm always getting 'dumped.' Lol. But I might meet them later. Still, I won't be gone long, ok? You can hang on the computer." (My mom and D16&17 were home to stay with the kids.)
S7 and I texted back and forth a little bit until they finally pulled up at the house.
H was NOT happy. I asked if the kids had behaved okay, and he said yes. But he was in no mood to make small talk. In fact, he wouldn't even LOOK at me. Stark contrast from earlier in the afternoon.
I asked S7 later why his dad seemed to be in such a rotten mood. S7 said: "I don't know, but I think it's because he read your texts." I asked how he read my texts if he was driving. S7 said, "He took his phone and read them at a red light."
I am not going to mind-read here. But is it typical WAS behavior for them to not want to be with their spouse ... and for THEM to even cheat!!! ... but to be bothered by the LBS seeming to "move on" and GAL without them??? I mean, what did he expect?
But is it typical WAS behavior for them to not want to be with their spouse ... and for THEM to even cheat!!! ... but to be bothered by the LBS seeming to "move on" and GAL without them???
Yes,
very typical. He's twisting.
Starsky
Starsky, have you read/researched anything about the psychology of that? Because I just don't get it. That seems like childish behavior to me: "I don't want you, but I don't want anyone else to have you, either." Why is he like that when he's the one who left? He's the one who said if he came back now and went to therapy it would be "only out of convenience." He's the one who chose someone else over me. So why does he CARE? Seems he'd be indifferent and would actually WANT me to move on so I'd be out of his and OW's hair once and for all! RIGHT???
I didn't prescribe a gender to my friend in any of the texts (because it WAS a guy ... but a guy I've been friends with for YEARS). And I'm not dating; I'm still M and not even legally S - yet. Perhaps H just made a broad assumption, and I probably fed that assumption by not being specific about the identity of said friend in the texts with S7. H is a jealous person, though he laughs things off and just makes snarky remarks about men "wanting (me)." Ugh. That's embarrassing for me to even see in black and white. I didn't provide the name of my friend for a reason ... because H has always thought there was something "there" between my friend and me. And I didn't want to fuel that last night, knowing H could read the texts between S7 and me. Perhaps I just shouldn't have said anything to S7 at all except: "I'm here for now, but I might not be home later."
So here's another question, which arose after I was reading something yesterday from a former cheating WAS: If H's self-esteem is so crappy (and it is, except for what OW has done to bolster it recently), was it shaky ground for me to even mention I was going out with a friend? I mean, I wrote it to S7, but it's on H's phone so obviously H is privy to anything I write. I don't want to inadvertently damage his self-esteem even more. BUT, he has OW. He left our family. There's a part of me that WANTS him to know I'm not only capable of moving on ... but I AM moving on.
Right? Or no?
Sorry for all the questions.
Starsky, have you read/researched anything about the psychology of that? Because I just don't get it. That seems like childish behavior to me: "I don't want you, but I don't want anyone else to have you, either." Why is he like that when he's the one who left? He's the one who said if he came back now and went to therapy it would be "only out of convenience." He's the one who chose someone else over me. So why does he CARE? Seems he'd be indifferent and would actually WANT me to move on so I'd be out of his and OW's hair once and for all! RIGHT???
Oh, my poor dear Train, you women sure do crack me up.
You try to make us men soooo COMPLICATED, and we really are quite SIMPLE creatures.
It's simple "push/pull" dynamics of male-female relationships, with some male "tagging" thrown in for good measure. (think peeing to make your territory)
Men are horny, competitive, horny, territorial, horny, stubborn, competitive horny creatures. Look up Occum's Razor and you will have your answer.
Starsky
oops -- should have read "MARK" your territory . . .
Also, Starsky, can you clarify "twisting"?
So here's another question, which arose after I was reading something yesterday from a former cheating WAS: If H's self-esteem is so crappy (and it is, except for what OW has done to bolster it recently), was it shaky ground for me to even mention I was going out with a friend? I mean, I wrote it to S7, but it's on H's phone so obviously H is privy to anything I write. I don't want to inadvertently damage his self-esteem even more. BUT, he has OW. He left our family. There's a part of me that WANTS him to know I'm not only capable of moving on ... but I AM moving on.
Right? Or no?
It's not your job to fix him, Train. CERTAINLY not now, while he's wayward!
Date or don't date, but do it from a standpoint of:
a) is this authentic to me, morally and ethically; and
b) will it be effective (warning: it often IS)
. . . and nothing more.
In addition to clarifying "twisting" -
...
Men are horny, competitive, horny, territorial, horny, stubborn, competitive horny creatures.
Yes, okay, point well taken. BUT ... you're not going to be like that to just ANYONE. And certainly not to your boring, nagging W while you're with OW. Right?
So it's as simple as: Maybe he's not quite as "over me" as he's led me to believe? Or as "over me" as he'd LIKE to be?
THAT is what I'm not understanding. Why is he still "interested" in ME at all???
That's what makes everything so hard and confusing for me. How can a man leave me for OW and then still engage in a "push/pull relationship" with *ME* ... the woman he LEFT?
Okay, off to read what you mentioned ...
You're reading past the "competitive" part, Train.
You're reading past the "competitive" part, Train.
Gotcha. Okay.
But what does that mean for me now? What advantage - if any - does it provide? What can I DO with this information?
will it be effective (warning: it often IS)
Effective ... as in ... it'll help me get over H? It'll get his attention and perhaps nudge him to want to work things out later? It'll pi$s him off? All of the above?
But what does that mean for me now? What advantage - if any - does it provide? What can I DO with this information?
You can use it to not misread his actions, and not to overthink the situation.
Effective ... as in ... it'll help me get over H? It'll get his attention and perhaps nudge him to want to work things out later? It'll pi$s him off? All of the above?
"Effective" as in it very often re-attracts the walkaway spouse. JEALOUSY 'WORKS', even if only in the short-term. You STILL have to decide if dating while still married fits within your own moral framework, and then you'd STILL have the same dysfunctional relationship (and H with all of his issues), but it DOES draw them back. Especially spouses with a strong jealousy streak.
You can use it to not misread his actions, and not to overthink the situation.
Ugh. Why do you have to get me with that one every. single. time??
Sorry. I don't mean to be a buzz-kill, and of course I COULD be entirely WRONG, but my instincts are usually pretty good, and regardless I think your over-analysis of HIM is getting you off where your focus needs to be right now, Train.
You STILL have to decide if dating while still married fits within your own moral framework
Considering my marriage essentially became a joke in God's eyes in 2005 ... and again when H dipped his you-know-what in OW a couple months ago ... I'm not sure I'll find a big problem with it from a moral standpoint. But I'd be afraid it would introduce MORE problems if H and I ever decide to work on our M. But if he completely moves on in the next year, I don't know that I'd be willing to sit and wait.
The part that is appealing about that idea is that if they come back open to conditions, then maybe ... just maybe ...
No apologies necessary. You're spot-on. Again.
I'm just LOOKING for ANY signs he's still invested ... or any HOPE that maybe this isn't a "done deal" in his mind.
Maybe this will explain the dynamic better, Train:
great movie scene that explains "push/pull"
Mmmmhmmm. That's depressing.
So by the time your W came back to you, Starsky, had you "forgotten" about her though?
I've gone back and read through some of your sitch. But that's A LOT of posts!
Anddddddd I just heard from L. He's speaking with H at 2 today.
I had decided we were DONE before I agreed for us to date others. She had pushed for that throughout our separation, and it had always been a dealbreaker for me, just morally. But once I had to file for divorce, and it looked like she wasn't going to end her affair and come back and try to work on the marriage, we separated into two homes and I decided to see someone socially from work. That was all it took to begin the re-attraction -- BAMMO! -- and we began slogging our way back thru several fits and starts.
Everyone has their own personal beliefs on this, and it's probably NOT DB'ing. I was only open to it because:
1. I had filed for divorce;
2. We had separated;
3. I TOLD her I was going to do it; and
4. She AGREED.
Had all four of those not been present, I doubt I personally would have done it.
And yeah . . . I did post a lot.
And that was just as PUPPY DOG TAILS. I have another whole archive as Chocolateeyes, too, lol.
The key dates in my sitch are May - Aug 2007, if that helps you narrow it down. That was when my wife had her affair, and I filed for D, and all that awful rot.
Starsky
Train,
To answer your question, I think it's because cheaters are the ultimate in selfish. Everything becomes about them. It's THEIR happiness that they're concerned about, no one else's. They revel in the attention! The OW wants them desperately, the STBX wants them- everyone wants THEM! They feel empowered, in control. If you suddenly pull away, then a big part of what's feeding their ego gets pulled back with you. That's why sometimes a wayward will pursue a bit, to make sure they get you chasing again.
Additionally, you are a backup plan if things don't work with the OW. If you are acting like you won't be there, it's uncomfortable for him. He's left thinking that he might find himself stranded with nobody in his life.
My 2 cents
HS
Starsky, I feel like everything is happening so stinking fast. I was celebrating my 10th wedding anniversary with a man I called my best friend 2 months ago. Now, we're finalizing a S agreement. I mean, once all that's complete, then I guess I'll have nothing BUT time to sort through the rest of this muck. But when will I feel confident enough to say, "I'm done"? I suppose only time will tell.
But both you guys - you and HS - continue to give me reasons to keep pulling away from him. H makes that easy most days. I mean, I haven't chased him much. But he knows I'm here. If that makes sense.
And I guess it would be pointless for me to ask him how he feels about dating during our S ... considering he was ALREADY dating WHILE we were married ... sheesh.
A friend called me a little while ago; a girl we went to high school with works at the grocery store with OW. Apparently OW is now outwardly telling people that "H left Train for me." Our high school friend called my friend to confirm. She said OW's issues are "disrupting work."
***sigh***
At the end of the day, nothing I do - or don't do - is going to hurry this process as quickly as I wish it would move. Time is the ultimate healer. And I've just got to brace myself for a lot of changes, challenges and lonely nights as I slug my way through. There's no magic bullet. No time machine.
Ok, guys. H is LASHING OUT.
I haven't even heard from L. H just texted me: "GD!!!! I thought L was going to help us both out ... not the case ... thanks a lot." He has sent 2 texts since, going ape-sh!t. The last one said: "Those numbers you guys came up with are ridiculous. I might as well f---ing die."
I'm not responding. But ... really?
Really??
REALLY?!??????
"Thanks a lot"?
What did he think this would be? A freaking walk in the park??? He gets to cheat, leave me for OW and - what? - call all the shots when it comes to a financial future for the kids and me????
Does he think anybody is going to look favorably on him??? That he could just wipe his hands of me and be done? That marriage is just something that he could end by sleeping with another girl?!?
Talk me down here, folks. I'm not going to respond. But what IS this?!???
Talk me down here, folks. I'm not going to respond. But what IS this?!???
Why do we need to "talk you down" ?
You already indicate that you know what (not!) to do.Stop being so reactionary, Train -- you are a bright, attractive, articulate woman. LET HIM TWIST. Next time you're on the phone or in person with him and he goes into the "thanks a lot!" legal rant, just say "You know, there's a reason that put that little 'v' in between the names of the parties, dear heart."
For now, let him be. He's in full-blown entitlement mode, and I suspect that some legal and financial realities are hitting him in the face now. Let them hit. Your mantra (but do NOT respond now!!!) is "I'm sorry you feel that way. Everything I'm doing I am doing to protect myself and the kids as best I can."
Starsky
I thought L was going to help us both out ... not the case ... thanks a lot."
Refresh my memory here, Train -- are you guys
sharing a lawyer or something? Or is this a mediator we're talking about here?
Please remind me of your current legal situation.
thx,
Starsky
Thank you, Starsky. We have a friend who is a L. He represents me but was willing to draw up the papers as long as we are in agreement. Obviously we aren't in agreement. L told H to take our pitch to his own L to see if another L finds it fair.
I just get so stinking bent out of shape when he comes unglued like that. But you're right: these are his consequences. And I won't live in fear of this turning into a legal battle. It is what it is.
Thankfully, his rants are all in texts so I can choose to not respond.
Thank you, Starsky. We have a friend who is a L. He represents me but was willing to draw up the papers as long as we are in agreement. Obviously we aren't in agreement. L told H to take our pitch to his own L to see if another L finds it fair.
Oh, ok -- got it. So your husband's a FOOL in addition to being a petulant little entitled b*tch? LMAO
Thankfully, his rants are all in texts so I can choose to not respond.
Are you archiving these, I hope?
Yes. And yes.
More in a few ...
Have to bounce for a minute.
THANK YOU for being my sit-in sanity.
More in a few ...
Have to bounce for a minute.
THANK YOU for being my sit-in sanity.
Happened to be here, lol. Yesterday you would've been screwed, as I was traveling.
Yesterday you would've been screwed, as I was traveling
Well thank God that His timing is perfect.
The thing is: I'll go days and not hear anything. And then it seems, all a sudden, the flood gates drop and EVERYTHING happens all at once. A call from a friend with information, a call from the L, crazy texts from H. I'm getting better at handling those days, I guess. But it just seems it all happens at once.
And, yeah, I don't mean to sound ugly, but my H is not the brightest bulb in the pack. Sometimes - especially these days - I really start to wonder: Do I want to hang on to my M because it's comfortable? Because I fear being a single parent ... again? Because I just want *a* companion and H has been that for so long? Because honestly? He's not my ideal partner. He can't/won't carry on an intellectual or intimate conversation with me. He's not a MAN. He's like a boy that won't grow up, sort of. I've always said he complements me in that way; his spontaneity has always balanced my more serious, stressed nature. And I mean, he's a great provider. He's a remarkable father. So in THOSE ways, he's good. But he's not a *man* ... you know, a MAN. Maybe I wouldn't do well with a MAN since I've lived so long being the disciplinarian of the family. I HAD to be when I was a single mom of Ds16&17. So I sort of just assumed the role with S7 and D2, too. Plus, H doesn't like to punish; he said his temper's too hot, and he doesn't want to become like his dad.
But I'm always the one who has to make decisions around here, with the kids and other things. And every once in a while, I want to say: You know what? I'm still a woman. I still want to be taken care of. Yes, I like to be respected. But I also want to be romanced. And I'm not talking about dry-humping me in the kitchen. That's not romance.
I don't know. I have a lot to consider once I'm out of my own fog, I guess. Right now, it seems the natural reaction to fight for my M and my H. Maybe it's jealousy. Maybe it's desperation. Maybe it's my morals. Maybe it's comfort. Or maybe it's just a knee-jerk thing.
But eventually, I'm not so sure I'm going to "pick" him again.
Talked to L. He said H was not at all belligerent (like in texts to me) when they spoke. He said H said he doesn't want to drop $4K-$5K on his own attorney. But L said he eventually told him that's what he's going to have to do if he thinks the deal we pitched is unfair. L isn't budging on the numbers. I was happy about that.
And yes, I keep EVERYTHING. I used to be an investigative reporter for a newspaper. I dig deep. And I archive everything. H knows this. Again, not the brightest bulb in the pack.
I am assuming you are lucky enough to live in a state that "punishes" affairs? I live in a no fault state so it doesn't matter what he does its 50/50..... your awesome, don't back down and don't give in to his rants. Let him squirm! I would live to see my H squirm a bit, he just seems to be happy/calm/no emotion.....
Yeah. I'm in NC. The Bible Belt, for all its faults, frowns on infidelity.
It could be the day. It could be the EVENTS of the day. It could be that I'm just plain-out exhausted. Or it could be the wine. Regardless, for right now, I'm thinkin':
Yeah, H. Rage on, my friend ...
I lived in NC for a few years.... when I was married to my first husband. My 7yr old was born there. We lived in Holly Springs, right outside Raleigh. I loved, loved, loved it there and would move back in a heartbeat. Should have divorced my first husband there, he cheated and we moved back to Chicago to try and "fix" our marriage...... didn't work so well.
Sweet!!! I'm close to Charlotte. Born and bred.
H texted about 15 minutes ago, apologizing for the "rant" yesterday ... but went on to explain what made him mad and said he has no choice but to go hire his own L now. He also texted that he'll check into a medical-insurance question I had posed yesterday.
I feel no need to respond. Anybody else think this requires anything on my end?
I personally would always respond to an apology. I would reply "I understand; this is very difficult on all of us."
I've used that one several times. Which leads me to a question: At some point, do we start sounding like feeling-less robots to these fools?
Yes. They hate it (at least my wife did). But I decided it was more important to be consistent in my message and boundaries, and to NOT get sucked into her drama and R talks, or legal/financial talks.
I've used that one several times. Which leads me to a question: At some point, do we start sounding like feeling-less robots to these fools?
Also, there are other ways to put one's changes on display for their wayward spouse, other than directly in their COMMUNICATION with their spouse. Watching you interact with your kids, with others, etc. I made sure to give my wife glimpses of "the new-and-improved-Starsky" thru my sitch, while remaining unwavering in my boundaries with HER.
I think I like the idea of non-communication.
*Any* conversations with him right now leave me feeling drained and beat down.
Right now, I feel numb. I don't know why. But I'm guessing it's because I haven't communicated with him the past couple days. And I'd rather feel numb than sad or angry.
Another question that's been heavily on my mind: do you think that approaches should be different depending on whether we are men or women? Take strength and confidence and assertiveness, for instance. Strangely, those tend to characterize me, even though they are more masculine qualities. Acting like that now would be more of the same for me. In fact, H mentioned that the very day after BD: "Look at you, Train, already getting that independent streak back." I guess that means he viewed me, for some time, as having lost it ...
I guess I'm just trying to strike a happy balance between demonstrating happiness, contentment and strength ... but not coming across too independent and fierce.
It doesn't matter right now while I have such limited interaction, I suppose. Heading to the beach with the kids for a week, beginning next weekend, which will give me a much-needed, lengthy break.
But I'm interested in your opinion on whether men and women LBSs should approach things differently.
Okay, while I'm on a roll on this subject ...
... I mean, 3 days after the BD - after I came home from visiting my sister - I told H that I had an immediate job offer after sending out an e-mail to former colleagues. And THAT - even after a grueling, turbulent 3 days apart post-BD - made H very, ummmm, visibly excited. He could not keep his hands off me from that point forward that night. Like, it was a palpable change that even HE noticed ... and remarked that he didn't understand what had come over him once hearing that.
I'm starting to wonder if my role as a SAHM - even though that's what he said he WANTED me to do - somehow "diminished" me in his eyes. So maybe confidence and independence and assertiveness - even while I feel those are predominantly masculine qualities that, demonstrated in me, have possibly hurt our relationship over the years - may be exactly what I need to continue portraying.
I'm confusing myself.
Glad I'm not the only one.
I guess I'm just trying to strike a happy balance between demonstrating happiness, contentment and strength ... but not coming across too independent and fierce.
I think you're investing waaayyyyy too much time worrying about how YOU come across to HIM.
Find your "authentic Train," and be HER. Get your mojo back. Do what Train would want to do if her H had suddenly died in a car accident, and she were single again.
Find HER. He's either attracted to that, or he isn't. I suspect he WILL be, but you need to find out what makes YOU happy, and stop trying to please your husband. That's not a healthy thing to do is a HEALTHY marriage, and it's certainly not what you need to be doing when he's screwing around on you.
Starsky
Ahhhhhhh, Starsky. Truer words could not be spoken.
You da man.
yup...what Starksy said
you have to be happy in your own skin...
you have to be the person you want to be...
once you are that everything will fall in to place. honestly
(Just for the record, I was coming at this from a 180 perspective. But you know what? You're right. Screw it. And screw him.)
Thank you, figgeroni! You guys are exactly right.
I'm not a big fan of the 180.
There, I said it.
Especially if there is infidelity involved.
Assuming that my past behavior was an outward extension of my true authentic self, and my core beliefs . . . why would I want to become the diametric opposite of that, just to re-attract a spouse who is having an affair on me??
Now, if the behavior is something I genuinely believe is NOT a healthy one for me, or DOESN'T reflect my true authentic self? Then yeah, I would want to work on that, but I would do it to become a better person, both on my own and in my future relationship, whether that's with my wayward spouse (if they decide to knock it off and come back to the marriage), or with someone else.
But I don't believe in changing who I am, IF I feel good about who I am. Not for anyone.
But maybe that's just me.
Starsky
I don't think it's just you, Starsky. I completely agree with you, which is likely one of the reasons I've had such a hard time with the idea of 180s.
I kind of like me. Is there room for improvement? Of course. And that's what I'll work on. So, yeah. I can understand 180s if - like you said - it's done for self-improvement. But to change the essence of who am I to attract somebody? You're right: why would I do that? That's not a sustainable change, anyway. And if I have to change the essence of who I am to make someone happy, then I don't need that person in my life.
But, yes, As, too, throw a monkey-wrench into everything. They make the most sane of us feel, well, insane.
They are entirely different beasts, those As.
I kind of like me. Is there room for improvement? Of course. And that's what I'll work on. So, yeah. I can understand 180s if - like you said - it's done for self-improvement. But to change the essence of who am I to attract somebody? You're right: why would I do that? That's not a sustainable change, anyway. And if I have to change the essence of who I am to make someone happy, then I don't need that person in my life.
You said it far better than I did, Train.
Starsky
I'm starting to wonder if my role as a SAHM - even though that's what he said he WANTED me to do - somehow "diminished" me in his eyes. So maybe confidence and independence and assertiveness - even while I feel those are predominantly masculine qualities that, demonstrated in me, have possibly hurt our relationship over the years - may be exactly what I need to continue portraying.
Quite possible.
In my case, WAW just got a job after being SAHM for 13 years. I find it very attractive. She's more of an equal, less of a dependent, more of what she was when we first met. I'm still working through how it all ties together. I don't think "diminished" is the right word, but it's certainly a different dynamic. And I wouldn't consider confidence, independence and assertiveness to be masculine qualities. I call those healthy person qualities.
In any case, you are what you are; it's not your problem. There's no reason to redefine yourself over good qualities. It comes down to whether your H is attracted to that, or threatened by it, and it sounds like it's the former.
So maybe we both got solutions to one of our problems. Just a little late!
You know, zew, you may be onto something. And it ties in also with what Starsky is saying. Maybe it isn't about how the spouses "look" at the W who chooses to stay home after working ... or chooses to work after staying home ... but it's about the W herself. It's about her own attitude. Her own perception of HERSELF. Her own confidence.
What a novel concept: the way we feel about ourselves may just cause other people to take notice and view us differently ...
Hmmmmm ... that sounds familiar!!
I love being a SAHM and being with my kids every day. But I'm certainly not the confidant, self-assured, independent person I was 8-10 years ago when I was in my "prime" at my job. No way, no how.
Granted, I'm getting that back a little, even while continuing as a SAHM. But it took my H leaving me to do it. I don't think I was able to exude this confidence in 2005 when he left because I was weak and vulnerable and pregnant. All I cared about was doing whatever I could to save my M. Saving MYSELF was a second-thought ... if a thought at all. I was faking it ... only to get H back.
Sad, really. But here we are, and there are valuable lessons to be learned here. Starting with: change ourselves and our own outlook first. Everything else will fall into place.
Haven't responded to H's texts in 24 hours. Lo and behold, he needs to stop by the house today to move more things out of his garage.
Aaahhhhhh!!!!
Can't I have just 2 days of no contact?!????? Just 2 days????
Ok. So he came right out and asked me why I "shut down" every time he texts about L. He asked if I'm getting his texts.
I couldn't even put a front on.
I just said: "Yes. I'm getting them. But I have nothing to say about it. I'm done talking about it. I'm done with all of it."
I said that because I felt it. And because I'm so over this BS.
He then tried to start "helping" by finding info that I asked for yesterday morning. And started giving me tips on how to do it myself. I told him I've got it handled. He got ticked and said, "You asked for help!!" Which is not true. I did NOT ask for help. I asked him to provide the freaking information about his insurance plan. So I just said, for the 5th time, "It's not a big deal. I've got it handled."
So WHAT if he sees me not happy and chipper and freaking positive for once? I was happy and chipper and positive out there with D2 while I was helping her ride a bike. I'm tired of this crap and this stupid facade.
I'm tired of his BS.
Oh and all the while, of course, he's out there texting OW while talking to me.
Screw him.
Ok. A good night's sleep ... some deep breathing ... seeing my GORGEOUS daughters dressed for prom ... and I'm feeling more centered.
H called a while ago. Asked about plans for tonight; his parents are on their way into town for the weekend. I had approached H about making some plans earlier in the week re: his parents and prom (because he wants to watch the girls walk into prom later tonight). He wasn't interested in making any plans at that point. So I let it go, knowing I'd hear from him when he was ready. And sure enough ...
I told him I have no idea what time they'd be at prom but I offered to text him when I heard they were leaving the restaurant. He said his parents should be here shortly and asked if they could just head over to my house to wait here with us. I agreed.
We talked briefly about the as$hat with whom D16 is going to prom and agreed if he lays a finger on her tonight, he will have more to worry about than the cost of dinner.
And I told H that I needed to go.
He said, "I did apologize to you, right?"
I replied: "Apologize for what?"
He said: "My rant I texted the other day. I don't want to be like that."
And I said: "Oh, yes. You apologized. I understand. This is difficult on all of us. I get it."
Sooooo, yeah. I think I deserve a high-five, Starsky.
Good job! And I am NOT looking forward to worrying about my kids at prom! You can have that stress for tonight, lol!
He said, "I did apologize to you, right?"
I replied: "Apologize for what?"
He said: "My rant I texted the other day. I don't want to be like that."
And I said: "Oh, yes. You apologized. I understand. This is difficult on all of us. I get it."
Sooooo, yeah. I think I deserve a high-five, Starsky.
PERFECT!!! Mods, where's the "high-five" emoticon??
Thanks for that, Starsky.
Nothing new to report here. Things are (strangely) quite calm and - dare I say? - boring here.
H and his parents picked up the kids yesterday morning. It was H's birthday, so before they left (but after he had been here 15 minutes or so while we were finishing readying the kids), I casually wished him a happy birthday - almost like I had nearly forgotten it.
That felt SO mean and cold ... and unauthentic ... of me to do. I'm usually a wake-up-excitedly-wishing-you-a-happy-birthday-almost-to-the-point-of-getting-on-your-nerves kind of gal.
Before they left for the day, H's dad asked me what I planned to do for the day. I told him I was meeting friends to go shoot guns. He asked if I was going to a range, etc. H - who hates guns - mentioned: "You should take S7 with you to shoot guns ... with whoever you're shooting guns with ... " I pretty much ignored that and just said, "Yeah, maybe a BB gun."
H's mom had asked me if we could sneak in a chat during her visit. I had offered to grill out for them later if they didn't have plans for a birthday dinner for H. Told them it was an option to consider but, if that's what they wanted to do, to give me a couple hours' notice.
I never heard from them. And that's fine. I realize their trip down wasn't for me, and I'm getting used to the idea of being two separate families. H, his parents and the kids ate pizza at H's house for dinner. When they dropped the kids off, H's mom just said she wished she had more time. Though they hung out on the back patio with my mom and me for about an hour, H and I hardly spoke. He did call me "Train" instead of "Honey" when he addressed me once. He was on his best, most distant behavior in front of his parents.
Here's the good news: It has made for a much easier Monday morning for me. Andddddd, I'm heading with the kids to the beach on Friday, which means I'll have another two relatively-drama-free Sundays (and Mondays) coming up.
My boundaries have clearly caused H to distance himself from me the past week; that's incredibly clear. But I'm just going to trust the process. Instead of trying to figure everything out, I think I'll try just letting it BE for a while.
Good idea, no?
Yes, very good idea! I like how you are maintaining some distance, and creating some mystique here.
(oh, and you grill AND you shoot guns?? HOW ATTRACTIVE!!
) I love it.
Starsky
(oh, and you grill AND you shoot guns?? HOW ATTRACTIVE!!)
Why, yes. Yes, I do!
Actually, I never knew I liked to shoot guns (or that I'm actually a really good aim - lol) until H left this time. I have a long-time friend who is a cop. (He's the same one H has always thought I have "something" with, even though he's married and we've been friends for years.) The thing is: I like creating mystique. GAL is one thing. But I don't want to out-and-out give H the impression that I'm carrying on something with someone else. Does that make sense? And I'm thinking this shooting-guns thing - while true - is just fueling H's suspicions that "something" (or someONE) is there, even though we are not even legally S at this point ... though that day is getting close.
But regardless, H is carrying on with his life ... and his A ... and, even if he suspects I'm getting too close to someone else, he sure ain't tryin' to stop me.
So, onward ... I think?
I totally forgot to journal here about a couple small things that DID happen this weekend, Saturday night before prom.
H texted to tell me his parents had made it into town and told me they were eating. He asked if anyone at the house wanted something to eat and encouraged me to "take advantage of (him) being nice (insert smiley face here)." I told him that would be great and gave a list of three things for S7, D2 and me. H and his parents got here, food in tow, but we quickly had to leave to catch DD16&17 walk into prom.
Later, I was hanging with friends and texted H a quick, "Thank you for dinner!"
He replied: "Is it what you wanted?" And then wrote: "Your girls looked absolutely amazing tonight. Good job, momma."
I just replied: "Yes. And thank you. :)"
Dinner stuff? Nice.
"Your girls"? ... when he's raised them since they were 4 and 5 years old? Ouch.
Oh well. I brushed it off and moved right along ...
Knock, knock, knock.
Hello, Starsky? Could you please provide me a work-able link to your chocolateeyes posts? I found one today, but the link is broken.
It's a rainy day, and I need reading material.
Thank you.
Knock, knock, knock.
Hello, Starsky? Could you please provide me a work-able link to your chocolateeyes posts? I found one today, but the link is broken.
It's a rainy day, and I need reading material.
Thank you.
What, is "War and Peace" too short for ya?
Here you go. Mind you, I was "Puppy Dog Tails" when my wife and I went thru her affair; Chocolateeyes was my earlier incarnation.
Chocolateeyes' Posts If you want the Puppy ones, just holla.
Choc/Puppy/Starsky
Ack! I thought you said your crappy times were in 2007, Starsky??? Puppy only started in 2008, I thought? I'm always so confused.
Wonka,
Y'all make me laugh.
Oh, and send me Puppy ones, too, pleeeeease. I'm bored today!
Ack! I thought you said your crappy times were in 2007, Starsky??? Puppy only started in 2008, I thought? I'm always so confused.
Wonka,
Y'all make me laugh.
You're right -- I misspoke. It was May-Aug 2007, and I was indeed Chocolateeyes then.
And now . . . I have to kill you.
Oh, and send me Puppy ones, too, pleeeeease. I'm bored today!
Ask, and ye shall receive:
Puppy's posts
And now . . . I have to kill you.
Meep.
And thank you! You da man.
Thanks, Wonka.
A real lady doesn't tell...
Funny...not to hijack here, Train...when you posted about two weeks ago or so in Scorp's thread, my spidey sense went off and I thought to myself, "This is what Puppy would say." Never mind connecting Starsky with Puppy alone!! I'd be damned...this is really neat.
I'm afraid it's been determined that I might be a far cry from a "lady," Wonka. I should probably work on that.
Hahahahaha. No apologies needed!! This conversation is a nice break from the norm on my thread.
I'm afraid it's been determined that I might be a far cry from a "lady," Wonka. I should probably work on that.
For more shock and awe stuff...
I am a lady.
Starsky! I'm going to be pulling some things from the pile of information I'm reading today and posting it here in an attempt to get some pointers and clarification.
Remember the "pile of gravel" analogy that OG_Lou gave you in 2007?
Choc, I see a big pile of disconnects between you and your W, I will call the gravel pile.
The pile got to its present size, a scoop at a time. You have a shovel and can't get rid of the pile in a few days. No prince kissing the princess and she wakes up. That type of story just sells books.
Okay, so how are those of us who are dim/dark doing ANYTHING that relates to shoveling away the pile?
I see you struggled with how "everything is counterintuitive," too (or at least at one point you asked that question). But how, if we need to "shovel," are we doing ANYTHING by sitting completely still? I mean, I get the "working on us" part. But it still feels we're not actively FIGHTING for our Ms and families like you did, even when you had confirmed an EA.
Anyone can respond, obviously. But I directed this at Starsky because I pulled it from his old thread.
And then this, from NOPkins ... which probably just answered that (above) for me ...
There is a time and a place to demand respect from her, but you haven't shown her that you are worth the effort yet.
For a time, at least a short time, you show her what she is potentially giving up (the good Choc), and her intact family.
After that, you confront with the choices. Doing it before you have established that you are the best and the right choice, will almost ensure that she makes the wrong decision.
Remember the "pile of gravel" analogy that OG_Lou gave you in 2007?
. . .
Okay, so how are those of us who are dim/dark doing ANYTHING that relates to shoveling away the pile?
I see you struggled with how "everything is counterintuitive," too (or at least at one point you asked that question). But how, if we need to "shovel," are we doing ANYTHING by sitting completely still? I mean, I get the "working on us" part. But it still feels we're not actively FIGHTING for our Ms and families like you did, even when you had confirmed an EA.
You can't shovel (at least in terms of addressing prior legitimate marital complaints, which I THINK if I remember was the context there??) until the wayward spouse ends their affair, and asks "what will it take?" to come back to the marriage.
In the meantime, sometimes you are "doing" by your "don't do ANYTHING." NOT PURSUING is a core underpinning of DBing, and it's so counter-intuitive that it's probably the #1 thing that newbies question, and I know you've been here before and aren't even a newbie. Especially men I've noticed (so yeah, sometimes you're no lady, lol -- kidding!) have a hard time with this, as we are natural "doers/fixers" and can't stand just standing still.
The other part of it you're missing is that you ARE supposed to be doing . . . just doing on YOURSELF! Cadet always closes his posts with "your husband/wife has given you a gift . . . TIME. Use it wisely," and it's very true. There's a TON of gravel-digging to do, but when the spouse is still wayward, you start digging on your OWN gravel.
Starsky
And then this, from NOPkins ... which probably just answered that (above) for me ...
There is a time and a place to demand respect from her, but you haven't shown her that you are worth the effort yet.
For a time, at least a short time, you show her what she is potentially giving up (the good Choc), and her intact family.
After that, you confront with the choices. Doing it before you have established that you are the best and the right choice, will almost ensure that she makes the wrong decision.
Ha -- yep! BINGO. I hadn't seen that before I responded to you, but NOPkins (and MrsNOP) were my mentors thru my sitch, and a GODSEND. Wise, wise couple and he especially helped me immeasurably. I firmly believe that God put him in my life right when I needed him, and we literally exchanged probably 4,000 emails I'm guessing.
Starsky
And then this, from NOPkins ... which probably just answered that (above) for me ...
There is a time and a place to demand respect from her, but you haven't shown her that you are worth the effort yet.
For a time, at least a short time, you show her what she is potentially giving up (the good Choc), and her intact family.
After that, you confront with the choices. Doing it before you have established that you are the best and the right choice, will almost ensure that she makes the wrong decision.
This ^^^^ is all classic "Plan A/Plan B" stuff by Harley. In DBing it's "shining a light back toward the marriage." You have to work on yourself while drawing your boundaries, and look for ways to demonstrate your positive changes OTHER than pursuing them directly. It's subtle, but there are ways to do it (by your interactions with others, either that your wayward spouse observes or that gets back to them is just one example, but there are others).
Everybody on here (especially men I've noticed) wants to try to fix their marriages WHILE their spouse is still wayward, and prove to them that "I GET IT! I'M A BETTER GUY NOW!" . . . but they are in NO mood to hear you. At worse, they won't notice, and at best they'll RESENT THE HELL OUT OF YOU for making these improvements NOW, after they've gone and done something foolish like having an affair.
Piecing is like an iceberg, and 95% of it comes AFTER they return to the marriage. It took the fetching Mrs. Puppy and I probably 2 - 2.5 years just to get back to a HEALTHY dynamic between us, and fully 3-5 before our marriage was one of those "stronger than ever" ones you hear about on here.
The gravel-shoveling comes later, IF you are fortunate to get a shot at it (by your wayward spouse deciding to end their affair and come back to the marriage). If you start shoveling your marital gravel WHILE they are wayward, they will perceive it as weakness and an alarming lack of personal boundaries that will actually make them feel LESS safe in the marriage, believe it or not.
I described my journal as one of PARALLEL PATHS . . . one was DBing, 180s, becoming the better option and "a person only a fool would leave" . . . while the other was pretty hard-core financial, legal and emotional boundary-setting and enforcing.
It wasn't really pure DBing, and doesn't fit with everyone's personality and stomach.
I completely follow you now. I'm gaining tons of insight as I read through your story, so thank you for sharing and passing the links.
I'm going out to GAL and drink too much wine with a beloved Buddhist friend.
I'm sure to be posting more later.
Thank you, Starsky.
I completely follow you now. I'm gaining tons of insight as I read through your story, so thank you for sharing and passing the links.
I'm going out to GAL and drink too much wine with a beloved Buddhist friend.
Enjoy!!!
Train,
I thought that I already posted something like this, but it may have been to someone else. Lets put aside DB for a minute. Men are often encouraged to FIGHT for their marriage- to compete for their wife's love. Like it or not, we're programmed as men to pursue a mate, women are programmed to respond. Therefore, a pursuing woman is not percieved to be "attractive" to a man. While wives tend to respond to a husband that changes his ways, the same cannot be said (in general) for a WAH. Men are likely to return only when their options are shot.
Additionally, in your case, this isn't your H's first affair. You cannot treat this situation as if it was a first affair that he just found himself in (ie: he started having feelings for a female work friend vs actually LOOKING for an affair). Your H was a predator in this case. He sought this woman's attention, asked for her number and pursued her. You think you can change someone wired like that by being a tad less critical to him at home?! *cough* *cough* Me neither.
Starsky (or choc, or pup- no I'M confused
) was fighting a different situation than you are. Look at the commonalities, not the differences, in his approach. A plan of action, boundaries, 180's, no "pursuit". Take your lessons from there.
Your husband deserves to get his butt kicked. He has a way of looking at life in a very selfish way. He gets what he wants, who cares who gets hurt in the process. For some reason certain women are drawn into men like that. Perhaps it's some sort of urge to be the one that changes them? Who knows. I can tell you, however, that unless he has a mind to change the way he approaches the world he will always be the same jerk that abandoned you. Changing yourself to somehow re-attract a man that abandoned you twice? Who will you have to become to maintain his interest? Is it even possible? Tough questions....
Wait!.... I have one more 2x4 in the 'ole tool box!
Please be very careful hanging out with a married man- that's how affairs begin. You don't have to be looking for it, it just happens. Sneaks up on you, if you will. Teaching someone something new, especially with an element of danger, can be quite the aphrodisiac.... Maybe you have no interest, but that doesn't mean that it might not mess up HIS head and affect HIS marriage.
I hope you don't take what I wrote as hurtful- that's not my intent.
Enjoy your evening!
HS
Definitely more on all that later, HS. And I could absolutely use your input on it, too. THANK YOU! I value 2x4s. Seriously!
This is likely going to be lengthy - my thanks to people who will hang in there with me through this one. I'm half-responding to points made last night and half-journaling my way through some of my thoughts, the past few days of which have been foreign to me. And, frankly, they're freaking me out a tad.
The other part of it you're missing is that you ARE supposed to be doing . . . just doing on YOURSELF!
I'm not per se missing that; I totally get it. To be honest, though, besides GAL and exercising, no matter how many minutes or hours I spend trying to figure out things to improve about myself, I cannot - for the life of me - figure out what more I can do to "do myself." I'm pretty happy with the person I've turned out to be. OTOH, I cannot force myself to love the idea of being a single mom. I KNOW I'll survive it and be fine - at times even happy. But am I going to "enjoy" it? No. I've been here before. No matter which way I slice it, there's nothing to per se look forward to in the life I'm going to be living. And there's no way to "prepare" myself for it. I can pretend it's going to be great. I *will* pretend it's great. But there's not much great about it.
At worse, they won't notice, and at best they'll RESENT THE HELL OUT OF YOU for making these improvements NOW, after they've gone and done something foolish like having an affair.
Obviously, I'm having a hard time with these "changes." I keep asking myself: What would/do my changes look like to me? To H? And I think: Okay, I've changed my hair. I've changed my outward appearance quite bit. But my personality? I haven't changed much about who I am, nor do I know that I want to. We've discussed this before a tad, and I'll get into it a little more in my responses to HS below.
Piecing is like an iceberg, and 95% of it comes AFTER they return to the marriage. It took the fetching Mrs. Puppy and I probably 2 - 2.5 years just to get back to a HEALTHY dynamic between us, and fully 3-5 before our marriage was one of those "stronger than ever" ones you hear about on here.
I'll also be getting into this a little more in my "journaling" below. But I don't think I have it in me to work so hard at a relationship with my H for that long. And, frankly, I'm beginning to genuinely feel he isn't worth it.
so yeah, sometimes you're no lady, lol
Now on to HS's comments ...
Your H was a predator in this case. He sought this woman's attention, asked for her number and pursued her.
Not that this matters ONE iota, but just to clarify, I was sending my H to the grocery store - right into the lions den - almost every, single day at the point in which he met OW. He made friends with a lot of the people that worked there. I know, it sounds completely odd. At one point, he even came home and said to me, "All the women there love me!" (Some accomplishment to have a fan club at the local supermarket, eh?) I'm beginning to think he and OW struck up a friendship, not through work, per se, but through his constant presence there. He started going in there more than I asked him to go, I've learned. So it's my guess he was seeing/speaking to her daily ... and several times a day. And then he asked for her number.
You think you can change someone wired like that by being a tad less critical to him at home?! *cough* *cough* Me neither.
This is my point EXACTLY on my personal growth and changes. Nothing I can do is going to change or fix him. I understand that's the point of focusing on *myself.* But when I feel like there's not much I can DO, I'm left with, well, nothing much to do.
Your husband deserves to get his butt kicked. He has a way of looking at life in a very selfish way. He gets what he wants, who cares who gets hurt in the process. For some reason certain women are drawn into men like that. Perhaps it's some sort of urge to be the one that changes them
I know I'm just an "online stranger," and it's likely hard to believe me when I tell you this, but TRUST me: My H was NOT this man when we first met. I *vetted* him - I *chose* him - because he WASN'T like this. I mean, I didn't even find him *attractive* enough to be a cheater; I know that sounds terrible. But one of the reasons I knew I had fallen in love with him is because he was so NOT my usual type, but I loved him for taking such good care of my girls and me. I took my time choosing him. He had his sh!t together. He owned his own home and his own car. He had a great job. His parents have been married 50 years. He did nice things for me. He worked on my car. He even attempted to cook me dinner ... once.
He took care of my DDs when I had meetings for work, playing with them and letting them dress him up, etc. He NEVER had a "wandering eye" - and, believe me, I watched for it in the almost-2 years we dated before I married him. My DDs' dad was the "bad boy"; and, yeah, I was young (only 19) and stupid when I met him and became pregnant with D17. I knew he wasn't a long-term catch. So I KNEW what to look for *after* him. H did not provide ONE indication that he was a "bad egg" or a cheater. Not ONE. This has *infuriated* me since 2005 because I keep going back in my mind, trying to figure out the signs of him being such a douchebag ... and figure out how I must have missed them. But the simple fact is: there was not much "bad" - as in "bad boy" - about him when we met 12-13 years ago. He was just a hard-working guy who liked me, adored my kids and would do anything in the world to make us happy.
Changing yourself to somehow re-attract a man that abandoned you twice? Who will you have to become to maintain his interest? Is it even possible? Tough questions....
Exactly. THIS is my struggle right now. Why change ME? What about ME is making him do this? What could I possibly do to make sure it doesn't happen again? And, even if he fell on his face eventually and begged for forgiveness and went to get help, will I EVER be able to trust him again? Can I trust my own judgment?
Please be very careful hanging out with a married man- that's how affairs begin.
Does it help that his W is hanging with us, too?
But seriously, this point is very well taken. I know that I'm in a very vulnerable stage in my life and probably not making the best decisions.
I hope you don't take what I wrote as hurtful- that's not my intent.
I didn't at all, and I can't begin to thank you and Starsky enough for your honesty and your help and your time in helping me through this. Like NOP to Starsky/Puppy/Choc (lol), you both are godsends to me. You're helping me keep my head on straight at a time when it sometimes spins out of control. And I am grateful for you.
Because this has already gotten way out of control, length-wise, I'm going to "journal" in a separate entry to try to pull some of my thoughts together.
Journaling. Comments are always welcomed and appreciated, though ...
I'm starting to realize just how much different this journey is today than what it was for me in 2005.
In 2005, I was weak and vulnerable and completely resistant to change of any kind. All I wanted was my M and my family. All I wanted was my H. I obsessed about it, even though most people - even here, on these boards - commented on how "strong" I was and how well I seemed to be doing.
I know there's nothing "static" about these situations. Things, events and feelings seem to change like the wind, from day to day and - sometimes - even moment to moment.
But the past few days, I've felt pretty much the same: I don't know if I want my H back.
I mentioned (buried) in a previous post that during H's visit with the kids on April 6, he asked specifically "what kind of sex" we had to abstain from; what I DIDN'T mention is that he said something to the effect of: "Well, we can't do anything anyway because the only reason you'd want to is to use it to get revenge on OW."
Something clicked in me after that. It was sort of a moment of clarity that even I didn't realize I was having at the time. My H is protecting HER, even though *I* am his WIFE. How jacked-up is it that he would FEEL that way, enough to actually say it - and say her NAME - to my face? I AM HIS WIFE!!!!!!!! And how jacked-up is it that I just sat there and didn't say anything in response ... but still let him lay on my couch and fall asleep, touching ME?
What kind of self-respect did I SHOW myself that night? No, I didn't sleep with him. And I could use all kinds of excuses and justifications to ML with my H. I mean, he IS my H. And, until recently, I felt intense love for him.
But, all a sudden, I don't anymore.
Right now, he almost disgusts me. I mean, I still get a twinge of SOMETHING - I'm guessing it's jealousy - when I think about him ML with OW. But when I think ahead and ponder him falling on his face and wanting to come back home (not that I'm suggesting that's necessarily going to happen, but when I even picture that), I see myself saying not only no but he!l no. I'm starting to envision a future ... and I don't see him in it.
I lost sleep two nights ago. I stayed up, tossing and turning, knowing that today is the last day I can make a mortgage payment on the house before a big late fee is tacked onto it. And I don't have the money in the account to make the mortgage payment. I've debated for two months whether I should stop paying mortgage here and just "squat," squirreling money away until the bank finally evicts the kids and me. I've spoken with L about it. He doesn't advise against it. But, to me, it's a huge move. Missing the first mortgage payment is the beginning of the end of home-ownership, and so many other things, for me. I don't know where I'll lead my family, or how much time I'll have to "lead" them there, once the bank gives me an eviction notice. This has been our home for 12 years. And just up-and-leaving is not going to be easy, for a number of reasons. Plus, I haven't found a rental house yet that's big enough for us and also costs less, monthly, than my current mortgage. (The mortgage is in H's name only. I'm only on the deed.) And the house is historic and is constantly needing work done, and that's something I can't do or afford to have done.
And I'm TICKED that H has left me in this situation, with the burden of having to make this monumental choice alone. I'm ticked that he's left me the head of a family of four children.
The same night that I was tossing and turning with this decision, I had a dream of H and OW. In it, he was watching a pornographic video of her ... and, strangely, another woman ... on his phone. I was on the sidelines, standing there, watching him in bed. And I still wanted to be with him. There's something fundamentally WRONG with ALL of that.
So yesterday - the day after the crummy night - I had a dip in my PMA. Plus, it was raining out. Yesterday wasn't the best day.
Last night, I went out with one of my dearest friends, and we talked and drank wine. H texted at about 8:45 to ask me to have D2 call him before she fell asleep. I sent back a very emotion-less text: "The kids are with mom and the girls. You can try one of them." And 10 minutes later, H - CLEARLY agitated - responded: "Are you keeping up with S7's school? Every time I ask him if he had school today, his reply is, 'we did a little bit,' or like tonight, 'no' ???????"
I did not respond until this morning, when I wrote: "Yes. S7 has school every weekday."
First, my son is a boy of VERY few words. He's not a talker. And he CERTAINLY doesn't want to spend his free time talking about school. Second, this text actually flew all over me - even though I didn't react in that way - because it INFURIATES me that H just up and left us and expects me to throw D2 in daycare and S7 in public school. H has always SEEMED very supportive of homeschooling because S7 is soooooo incredibly smart. But the night of BD, he said, "S7 needs to go to public school anyway." I would later learn why he's had a sudden change of heart: OW told him in a text that I found that he needs to "push the issue of public school" because "S7 is too close" to ME and H needs to "get him away from" me.
H has ALWAYS stayed out of my way when it comes to educating S7. And NOW he's concerned?!? Our son is above grade level in EVERY subject. And he's concerned, all of a sudden, that I'm not doing enough?
I also found it humorous that he would text his venom only 10 minutes after realizing that I was out, GAL, and not telling him what I was doing or who I was with. I could be wrong, but his responses at such times indicate that he has a problem with ME being away from the kids 2-3 nights a week. But it's okay, I guess, for HIM to leave them ...
Is it possible for me to just stop caring this quickly? Is it possible that my feelings for him are already waning?
Last night, S7 told me that "sometime in March," his dad took him into the grocery store and a lady there offered him "free M&Ms." He said, "I think it was OW, but I didn't know at the time."
How did I react? Not with jealousy. Not even with overwhelming anger. I just very calmly told S7 that I'd make sure, legally, his dad wouldn't be able to have him around OW again for a long while.
The more I've been thinking about it, the more I realize that I don't think H is a "quality person" anymore. But how did I come to that conclusion in one short week? I mean, I'd love to keep my FAMILY together. I'd love to not have to worry about where we are going to live and how I'm going to pull off a job when, frankly, the money I'd make would go straight to daycare for D2. I'd love to not have to worry about how D is going to impact my children. My H is actually exactly right: It'd simply be *convenient* to live together again.
But that's not my reality.
I don't know if I'm fooling myself or if my mind is just "protecting" me. I don't know if I've finally just had enough. I don't know if this is just a fleeting feeling and maybe a stage that a LBS goes through. But the fact is, I don't want my H right now. I wouldn't want him even if I could have him. And if I'm feeling this way right now, I have to ask myself if I have it in me to fight - over years - for our M and our family. For today, at least, I just don't think he's worth fighting for.
Starsky and HS, just in case you missed it, I posted TWO lengthy entries above; the first one contains answers/discussion on the points you two made last night. I just didn't want you missing the first post, thinking I had glossed over your excellent points last night.
Swamped today at both work and with stuff with my in-laws', Train, but I'll try to read your posts later today and get back to you.
Starsky
Take your time, Starsky!
Ahhhh ... woke up this morning, checked my bank account and H has cut his financial "contribution" by nearly half.
Kind of expected it to happen at some point.
Just sent a very calm text, asking him to update me on what's going on. But on the inside, I'm freaking out. Also sent L an e-mail, alerting him. L and I both will be out of town next week, so I won't be able to do anything until the following week.
This takes nerves of steel, doesn't it?
Had you two discussed this previously? Why were you expecting it?
Yes, let the lawyer advise you on this. What an ass your H is!!!
No, we had not discussed it. I expected it because I always expect my H to be an a$shole.
He just responded to the text, telling me he had tried to send a text Monday to give me the heads up. I never received the text, but he forwarded what he said he sent.
He essentially unilaterally decided what he thinks he should be paying in support. He said he talked to a lot of people who disagreed with what L thinks I should get. So he decided to cut his support essentially in half until the courts decide the amount of support.
L and I will meet week after next.
Meanwhile, H sends a text, saying, "Remember I get the kids today" and then asked, "You clowns headed to the beach tomorrow?" When I replied, "yes," he said, "Lucky you."
Yeah. I'm sooooo lucky ...
I guess this gives him a feeling of "power." His financial support was his ace in the hole.
This, in other words, is how my H responds to "boundaries."
Is this spousal support, or child support?
Most states use a basic formula (yours and his income, # of overnights kid(s) are with each parent) that is varied from VERY little, and many have online calculators. What types of expenses is this supposed to cover?
This, in other words, is how my H responds to "boundaries."
He can do that, but a family court judge isn't going to look very kindly on him if his "calculations" are to short-change his own children. Courts are abundantly clear when it comes to child support -- IT'S NOT THE KIDS' FAULT, and parents are to do whatever they need to do to abide by the contribution amounts.
I'll be anxious to hear what your attorney says. I would respond "thank you for your clarity" or some such.
This, to H, represents both spousal AND child support. He essentially "talked to people" and decided what he'd be willing to pay - which is $700/month less than what my L proposed - and H adjusted his direct-deposit accordingly.
My L worked the formulas. Child support is pretty easy.
Alimony is a crap shoot, but we pitched what we believe the courts might grant.
Yes. I just responded: "Okay. Thanks."
I'm just trying to keep a level head right now.
The good news is: financial support was his last card to play. It's done now. HE'S done now.
Now, I'll build MY case.
I don't know if I'm fooling myself or if my mind is just "protecting" me. I don't know if I've finally just had enough. I don't know if this is just a fleeting feeling and maybe a stage that a LBS goes through. But the fact is, I don't want my H right now. I wouldn't want him even if I could have him. And if I'm feeling this way right now, I have to ask myself if I have it in me to fight - over years - for our M and our family. For today, at least, I just don't think he's worth fighting for.
Good questions. I think every LBS goes through this. I'll ramble through some of my thinking ... you may find it helpful, you may think I'm all wet.
Certainly a big part of it is a defense mechanism.
I know I don't want my W the way she is
now. I mean, what kind of weak person runs away from M problems to an OM instead of confronting them? Who wants to be lied to and disrespected daily? We then highlight all of their shortcomings to justify our decision to not want them.
But then, I realize that I contributed to the conditions that caused her to break away from M as a last resort. And a lot of her behavior now is just snowball effect stuff of an OM addict who made a bad decision in a moment of weakness. And they highlight all of our shortcomings to justify their decisions to not want us, and throw that in our face in the ugliest way.
So there's a dangerous parallelism of justifications that can easily lead to D.
But I believe that my W could not have truly lost all her good qualities. This has to be a veneer. The question then is, will the veneer crack before we're too far down the road of not caring. And if it cracks, are you willing to let it go as just the snowball manifestations of an underlying problem that might be able to be resolved. And if it cracks, are the underlying qualities that you fell in love with still there? Can I confront the possibility that my W may truly not love me any more, and that this really is the new her? Do I owe it to myself to find out? Do I owe it to her or the kids to stand through this?
And while I know that I
could now throw this all away and move on and be happy, (getting to that point is a goal for any LBS), the question then is do I go for the stretch goal of working to save
this R, because it's the one that has my kids in it, and now that I know I can take care of me, can I really consider which way would they be better off.
And if you're still changing your thinking on all of this from day to day, I'd suggest it's still emotionally based, and you owe it another day.
zew,
Thank you so much for this perspective. I'm going to chew on it once I've breathed my way through my H's jerk-offedness this morning.
Because right now, all I want to do is choke him out.
Train,
Do you have a smartphone? Check out the MB app- they have a daily radio show that you might enjoy. Helped me TONS. Would listen each day in my car.
HS
This, to H, represents both spousal AND child support. He essentially "talked to people" and decided what he'd be willing to pay - which is $700/month less than what my L proposed - and H adjusted his direct-deposit accordingly.
My L worked the formulas. Child support is pretty easy.
Alimony is a crap shoot, but we pitched what we believe the courts might grant.
OK, thanks for clarifying.
HS - I will definitely check that out ... thank you!
Starsky, H essentially is now paying me $1,300 less, every two weeks, than what he has been paying. That's my entire freaking mortgage ... and some change! Good thing I had already been debating not paying it. That's the benefit of planning ahead, for just the kids and me, I suppose.
HS,
MB? What's it stand for? I'm looking now ...
Is the mortgage note in both of your names? How about the deed?
Oh, and Starsky:
What types of expenses is this supposed to cover?
Considering I'm a SAHM, his financial contribution is covering ALL the household expenses ... or it WAS covering all the household expenses ...
HS - I will definitely check that out ... thank you!
Starsky, H essentially is now paying me $1,300 less, every two weeks, than what he has been paying. That's my entire freaking mortgage ... and some change! Good thing I had already been debating not paying it. That's the benefit of planning ahead, for just the kids and me, I suppose.
You might want to respond to him "Since you seem to have gotten some guidance that you think is fair, as to what this should cover (and since it won't even allow me to continue to make the mortgage payment), can you let me know which obligations this is all intended to cover?"
He'd be stupid to respond in writing, but you never know.
Is the mortgage note in both of your names? How about the deed?
Mortgage is in his name only. My name is included on the deed. That was actually a result of 2005. My name wasn't on the deed at the time. He tried to kick my DDs and me - PREGNANT - out of the house back then. One condition of R was that my name would be put on the deed.
You may want to ask your attorney about filing for temporary emergency spousal support (assuming that his CS calculations fully cover his CS responsibilities), and what he/she feels your chances are of winning such a motion.
If the children are living in a home whose mortgage payment is NOT going to be able to be paid -- and thereby facing eventual possible foreclosure and eviction -- your atty should be able to make a case that your husband needs to continue to help provide for the children's home.
"Since you seem to have gotten some guidance that you think is fair, as to what this should cover (and since it won't even allow me to continue to make the mortgage payment), can you let me know which obligations this is all intended to cover?"
He has already told me to stop paying the mortgage. He hates the house. He's done with this place. Etc. etc. etc.
What would I be trying to GET him to say in a response?
Is the mortgage note in both of your names? How about the deed?
Mortgage is in his name only. My name is included on the deed. That was actually a result of 2005. My name wasn't on the deed at the time. He tried to kick my DDs and me - PREGNANT - out of the house back then. One condition of R was that my name would be put on the deed.
Then I would inform him, in writing, "Just so you know, @ $1300 I will be unable to continue to make the mortgage payment. I guess we'll let the Ls sort all that out, but I thought you should know since the note is in your name."
You could even itemize what you can reasonably cover with the $1,300, in terms of shelter, food, and other family necessities.
But talk to your L first.
How much per mo. is the mortgage pmt?
"Since you seem to have gotten some guidance that you think is fair, as to what this should cover (and since it won't even allow me to continue to make the mortgage payment), can you let me know which obligations this is all intended to cover?"
He has already told me to stop paying the mortgage. He hates the house. He's done with this place. Etc. etc. etc.
What would I be trying to GET him to say in a response?
Just something as stupid as THAT. ^^^ Admit in writing that he is INTENTIONALLY withholding financial support that would result in the potential loss of SHELTER for the children???
He's insane.
How many years is considered a "long-term marriage" in your state? In mine (FL), it was 10 years, and I would have been staring down the barrel of lifetime, permanent spousal support (in addition to the child support) had me and the fetching Mrs. Puppy not worked out our sitch.
You may want to ask your attorney about filing for temporary emergency spousal support
Yes. L and I both will be out of town next week, but he told me to schedule an appointment asap for the following week so we can discuss. I'll bring all this up. As of right now, H is essentially paying only $300/month for spousal support on top of the maximum child support calculations. (If we use bare minimum child support calculations - even figuring in a minimum-wage job for me and NO daycare for D2 - he unilaterally decided to pay $600/month in alimony right now.)
HS! I just realized what MB stands for - never mind!
You may want to ask your attorney about filing for temporary emergency spousal support
Yes. L and I both will be out of town next week, but he told me to schedule an appointment asap for the following week so we can discuss. I'll bring all this up. As of right now, H is essentially paying only $300/month for spousal support on top of the maximum child support calculations. (If we use bare minimum child support calculations - even figuring in a minimum-wage job for me and NO daycare for D2 - he unilaterally decided to pay $600/month in alimony right now.)
How does your state figure shelter (mortgage pmt for the children's primary residence) into their calculations? Is that figured into the CS calculation, or handled separately between H and W as part of SS?
Train,
Marriage builders
Hs
How much per mo. is the mortgage pmt?
$1,228
How many years is considered a "long-term marriage" in your state?
Honestly? I'm not sure. But L told me our state typically decides to award alimony for 1/2 the length of the M, so in my case, 5 years. But he says it's a total crap shoot - sometimes a judge will award more, but usually never less than 1/2 the duration of the M.
L pitched 10 years (the entire length of our M) to H. H is obviously saying he disagrees; he's only willing to pay for 5.
No sh!t.
If my thread locks up soon, I'll be starting another one ...
If I were your atty, I'd have a field day if I had something from your husband -- in writing -- telling you to intentionally NOT pay the mortgage, and that indicates his clear understanding that his cutting your $$$ in half would basically have that result.
Deciding to do the "strategic default" thing has its own interesting legal, financial and moral implications, but it's RECKLESS to consider it when the property in question is the primary residence of minor children. Even though the foreclosure dockets move slowly these days -- especially in states like Florida that are "judicial" states -- you're still playing the children as pawns if you decide to strategically default.
What state are you in?
Starsky
How much per mo. is the mortgage pmt?
$1,228
Then it all comes down to whether or not "Shelter" is included in the CS calculations.
How does your state figure shelter (mortgage pmt for the children's primary residence) into their calculations? Is that figured into the CS calculation, or handled separately between H and W as part of SS?
It's figured into child support. He pays a portion, based on his income. And I pay a portion, based on mine. I have no income right now. And I don't have to establish income until D2 turns 3, which is in June. (L - to be fair - added a minimum-wage job for me into the calculations we pitched to H.)
Thank you, HS! I'm on it!
I'm in NC.
I could easily send H a message, detailing how he's cut his support by $1,300/month and out-and-out ASKING him if he expects me to stop paying the mortgage since his name is on the mortgage. I don't know if that's the best way to approach/word it, strategically. But I KNOW that's what he intends for me to do.
Alimony, in NC, is simply determined to provide a quality of life similar to what I was used to before H left. It is paid, as you know, to the entitled spouse who is dependent on the breadwinner. The affair will come into play there. And the fact that I'm a SAHM. That's why it's a crap shoot. There's nothing specific, really, that goes into that calculation except income and circumstances.
How does your state figure shelter (mortgage pmt for the children's primary residence) into their calculations? Is that figured into the CS calculation, or handled separately between H and W as part of SS?
It's figured into child support. He pays a portion, based on his income. And I pay a portion, based on mine. I have no income right now. And I don't have to establish income until D2 turns 3, which is in June. (L - to be fair - added a minimum-wage job for me into the calculations we pitched to H.)
Thank you, HS! I'm on it!
I'm lost, lol. You said he was paying you $1300/mo. less than what he was paying before ($2600/mo. before, and $1300/mo. now?), and then you said "which is $700/mo. less than what my L had asked for.
How much per month is your state "max" CS calculation for your situation?
How much is your husband saying he's going to pay now, total (SS + CS)?
I'm in NC.
I could easily send H a message, detailing how he's cut his support by $1,300/month and out-and-out ASKING him if he expects me to stop paying the mortgage since his name is on the mortgage. I don't know if that's the best way to approach/word it, strategically. But I KNOW that's what he intends for me to do.
Yeah, that's what I'd do. I'd keep it chatty (so not to tip him off), and say something like "I know you keep telling me to stop paying the mortgage, but I didn't want to do that without asking you first, since it's in your name. But really, since the groceries, haircuts, doctor co-pays etc add up to easily $______/mo, I guess I don't even have a choice. Or am I figuring this wrong? Hey, I was told there'd be no Math!!! lol"
And see if he responds.
Alimony, in NC, is simply determined to provide a quality of life similar to what I was used to before H left. It is paid, as you know, to the entitled spouse who is dependent on the breadwinner. The affair will come into play there. And the fact that I'm a SAHM. That's why it's a crap shoot. There's nothing specific, really, that goes into that calculation except income and circumstances.
We're not allowed to post links here, but this is "public use" and not copyrighted material, so I'll just paste it:
North Carolina Alimony FAQs
Find out how courts in North Carolina decide whether to award alimony when a couple divorces.
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Like most states, North Carolina allows a court to award alimony (also called spousal support) when a couple divorces. The court must consider a list of factors in deciding whether an alimony award is appropriate, how much to award, and for how long. This article answers some common questions about alimony in North Carolina. For all of our articles on North Carolina divorce law, see our North Carolina Divorce and Family Law page.
What is alimony?
Alimony (also called spousal support) means payments one spouse makes to support the other. These payments can be made in a lump sum or on an ongoing basis.
In North Carolina, the court can award two types of alimony. Post-separation support lasts only as long as the divorce action. The court will look at each spouse's income, earning ability, and need, as well as the standard of living the couple had when together, to determine whether one spouse should pay the other post-separation support.
Once the divorce is finalized, the court may award alimony.
What factors does the court consider in deciding on alimony?
The court must look at a number of factors in making an alimony award:
the marital misconduct of either of the spouses
the earnings and earning capacity of each spouse
the age and the physical, mental, and emotional condition of each spouse
the amount and sources of earned and unearned income of each spouse, including, but not limited to, earnings, dividends, and benefits such as medical, retirement, insurance, social security, or others
how long the marriage lasted
any contribution by one spouse to the education, training, or increased earning power of the other
the extent to which one spouse's earning power, expenses, or financial obligations will be affected by that spouse's custody of the children
the standard of living the couple established during the marriage
the education of each spouse and the time necessary to acquire sufficient education or training to enable the spouse seeking alimony to find employment to meet his or her reasonable economic needs
the assets and liabilities of each spouses and the relative debt service requirements of each spouse, including legal obligations of support
the property each spouse brought to the marriage
either spouse's contribution to the marriage as a homemaker
the relative needs of the spouses
the tax consequences of the alimony award
whether either party's income was considered in dividing the couple's property, and
any other factor relating to the economic circumstances of the spouses that the court finds to be just and proper.
If either spouse has engaged in "illicit sexual behavior" during the marriage (defined as voluntary sexual or "deviate" sexual intercourse with someone other than one's spouse), it will affect the alimony award. A dependent spouse who might otherwise be eligible for alimony will receive nothing if that spouse committed illicit sexual behavior. And, a supporting spouse who might otherwise not have to pay alimony will have to do so if that spouse was the one who engaged in the illicit behavior.
How is alimony calculated? Are there alimony guidelines?
Although guidelines are often used to calculate child support, there are no guidelines for awarding alimony in North Carolina. The amount of alimony varies widely. Alimony is to be paid in such amount as the circumstances render necessary, having due regard to the factors set out above. For example, if a couple had a high standard of living in a long-term marriage in which one spouse stayed home to raise the couple's children, that might justify a significant award to the homemaker. On the other hand, if both spouses worked, their marriage lasted only a few years, and they have no children, alimony is much less likely.
You and your spouse may decide on your own that one of you is entitled to receive alimony payments. If you are unable to agree on the matter, then you can submit the issue to the court for a decision. Whether alimony is arranged by agreement or ordered by a court, it is taxable to the recipient spouse and tax deductible to the payor spouse.
Mods, if for any reason that's not a permissable use, please just delete my above post.
Starsky
Okay, I'm NOT good at math - lol - so let me spell it all out:
H has been direct-depositing about $3,300/month ($1,600+ every two weeks) since he left; that's much more than I would be rewarded by the courts, even though H has another job on top of the the one that pays THAT paycheck.
Maximum CS would be $1,600/month. Minimum would be about $1,300/month.
My L pitched $1,600/month in CS and $1,000/month in SS. ($2,600/month total.)
H, meanwhile, pitched paying only $1,600/month for CS and SS combined.
But as of this morning, he's paying about $1,920 a month ($960 every two weeks) instead of $3,300ish a month ($1,600ish every two weeks). So that's $1,300 (and some change) less per month ($670 per pay period) than what he has been providing the last two months since he's been gone.
Does that help clarify anything? Let me know if my numbers don't add up ...
Yeah, that's what I'd do. I'd keep it chatty (so not to tip him off), and say something like "I know you keep telling me to stop paying the mortgage, but I didn't want to do that without asking you first, since it's in your name. But really, since the groceries, haircuts, doctor co-pays etc add up to easily $______/mo, I guess I don't even have a choice. Or am I figuring this wrong? Hey, I was told there'd be no Math!!! lol"
And see if he responds.
I can do "chatty."
Okay, I'm NOT good at math - lol - so let me spell it all out:
H has been direct-depositing about $3,300/month ($1,600+ every two weeks) since he left; that's much more than I would be rewarded by the courts, even though H has another job on top of the the one that pays THAT paycheck.
Maximum CS would be $1,600/month. Minimum would be about $1,300/month.
My L pitched $1,600/month in CS and $1,000/month in SS. ($2,600/month total.)
H, meanwhile, pitched paying only $1,600/month for CS and SS combined.
But as of this morning, he's paying about $1,920 a month ($960 every two weeks) instead of $3,300ish a month ($1,600ish every two weeks). So that's $1,300 (and some change) less per month ($670 per pay period) than what he has been providing the last two months since he's been gone.
Does that help clarify anything? Let me know if my numbers don't add up ...
Thanks -- now I get it. I'm a little slow this morning.
So he's basically saying "you can either pay the mortgage and provide our children with shelter, or you can buy groceries, haircuts, medicine, gas to cart our kids around, etc. . . . but you can't pay both."
Because $1,920/month doesn't even cover the mortgage payment!!!
Starsky, I moved this comment - and my response - over to the new thread.