Should this be a cause for concern?
Quick history/update
With the assistance of member on this forum, I was able to defuse an EA between my W and a co-worker. I have been told by co-workers including 3 good friend of mine, the talk between the two had halted and at the currently is nothing more than a "hi" or "hello" exchange. As they would put it "It is nothing like it was." When there was something there everyone could see and knew what was going on.
I was told that when even the the minimal occurrences in this work place are made out to be major instances. In other words people know when something is going on.
I have a third friend who is not a co-worker but at times works at the same location as my W and they observe everything and according to him he had heard nor seen anything.
It was decided that I let things rest.
Since communication between my W and I has improved. If you have followed my second thread, my W has uploaded images of her at our wedding onto her facebook and also a picture of us two on our honeymoon.
MY CONCERN:
W was looking at wedding gowns online, many different sites.
Even though we have come a long way since my first thread, W is still bitter and distant toward me at times. Last night my W did a google search for "I love him quotes" during those results she saved an image which had a quote on it that read
"So there's this boy and the way he laughs makes me smile, and the way he talks gives me butterflies, just everything about him makes me happy"
She then attached this image to an email and included the following two quotes in that same email.
Find a guy who calls you beautiful instead of hot, who calls you back when you hang up on him, who will lie under the stars and listen to your heartbeat, or will stay awake just to watch you sleep... wait for the boy who kisses your forehead, who wants to show you off to the world when you are in sweats, who holds your hand in front of his friends, who thinks you' re just as pretty without makeup on. One who is constantly reminding you of how much he cares and how lucky he is to have YOU... The one who turns to his friends and says, "thats her"....
Should I smile because we are friends? Or cry because we'll never be anything more?
My W then sent this email to herself. then deleted it and then emptied the trash. The emails that are sent to this email address are also CC to her phone.
Now speaking of phone...she has two lines, one on my account/name and that is clean as far as the logs go.
The other is her personal line under her name. I have temporary access to the account and was able to view the logs...she has only uses 9 minutes in the past month, all to numbers that are in her contact list. Needless to say as of right now, these logs are clean.
What should I do, if anything? Does this mean anything? Should I be concerned?
Remember she still has the fog, so try not to make sense of it.
It's funny the longer quote I recently read, and I did all of those things and W is still a WAW...
Women are tricky, especially when they decide to follow "feelings"...keep doing what you're doing and don't let it ruffle your feathers..I haven't read in a while but it seems like things are going OK.
Hang in there
Hmmmm
I just don't get it. W uploads pics of our wedding, of us and sends them to her phone, saves them there. Out of the blue she happens to do a search like that saves those quotes.
don't even attempt to enter her mind...you will get nowhere fast...
I am not attempting to read her min but rather determine where I should go from here. Am I over reacting, taking this out of context?
Should I become distant or take a new approach other than suggested by db coach (this occurred after our last session).
Do I become that of which is denostrated in these poems?
And what is with her looking at wedding dresses...
Spoke with a friend today who is co-worker of my W's and just out of curiosity I asked how things were going. He said today my W and former OM talked to each other a few times (not in private). He said that is all he seen.
I thought OM made a commitment to you and his wife to NEVER communicate with your wife again?
Note : If they talk "in private"... no one WILL see that, hence the term "private"
Check the phone logs for any calls from him... that's your best bet
Phone logs checked and clean for both lines. He did make commitment but being that they work together it would be extremely difficult to not engage in any conversation.
I have been told all along that things have come to a halt, other than a "hi" or "hello" they're conversation ceased to exist. I was also told that "you can tell he blows her off and tries to avoid conversation."
I have not spoke with OMW in over 7 weeks, and came clean to the W that at the time I was still in communication with OMW/OM.
I am due for a phone call to OMW or should I ride it out for now until something is confirmed?
Note : If they talk "in private"... no one WILL see that, hence the term "private"
From what I was told there is no such thing as privacy at the airport (where they work) and the way it was before, the two would walk a little distance away from other workers and begin to talk, or at lunch they would carry on conversations or my W would walk away and call him on the phone and EVERYONE seen this and according them them "this" is not what is going on now.
Just keep an eye on things then... the last thing you want to do is make another unjustified confrontation and blow everything out of control dude...
She's vulnerable and acting like a child, so keep an eye on her, but I wouldn't do anything with this right now except continue to monitor for additional signs...
Well things took turn for worse between us.
Friend confirmed the two were talking in a non group setting today.
Today W told me for the first time in nearly 4 weeks (verbally) that she is still set on ending this marriage. Could be in part due to pursuit on my end with a facebook post, I thought it was harmless. She copied and pasted the post into email and sent it to herself.
Little bit later I walk in the room W ask for a picture, I told her I had it on my night stand. I asked W if she wanted the photo she said yes. I handed it over and said "I took that one" she said I know u took it...I replied, no I mean I snapped that picture. She turned and I said " I can't have the picture?" She said "no, and soon every memory will be wiped away, cause I am leaving" I said " I just want for you to be happy" then she said "soon as my fathers situation calms done and he can finish the house I am gone" and I replied "W name, I just want for you to be happy" then she said "I am going to talk to my father about getting/calling that lawyer" I said nothing in return then a few min later she said "and I don't know what were going to do about her" and pointed to the dog, I said nothing and a few min later left the room.
I said " I can't have the picture?" She said "no, and soon every memory will be wiped away, cause I am leaving" I said " I just want for you to be happy" then she said "soon as my fathers situation calms done and he can finish the house I am gone" and I replied "W name, I just want for you to be happy" . . .
Doesn't work.
Puppy
OIN when you say crap like that to her you JUSTIFY her LEAVING... It is making your case WORSE not better... why do you resort to giving her nonsense and ammunition?
I would have just told her
Running away isn't going to make either of us feel better in the long term... no one enjoys a failed marriage on their conscience...
And THEN I would turn and walk away...
More to the point, why are you getting INTO these conversations in the first place, DR makes it crystal clear you should AVOID relationship talks... and your SPOUSE WILL PUSH them on you... AVOID them.. you seem to walk right up after them like ice cream...
it is NOT going to improve your situation to discuss your relationship with a wayward spouse.. you just give HER ammunition to LEAVE
Stop pursuing her and stop the marriage talk... if you DO get sucked into saying SOMETHING.. say something CONSTRUCTIVE to cause her to DOUBT divorce... telling her "I just want you to be happy" is NOT helping your case... it IMPLIES
Divorce me, you will be much happier and you have no reason to feel any guilt...
that is what she hears when you say "I just want you to be happy"
You are just putting a bullet to your big toe and firing the trigger...
Allen,
I NEVER initiated this conversation with her. She spontaneously said this. And I replied as I was advised to by my DB coach. Sorry not sure if I was being clear or if you were keeping up with my other thread
Furthermore I want to add
I was told by db coach that if W says "I' leaving" don't engage in R talk, don't reason with her or try to convince her it is bad because all she would want to do is prove me wrong. She'll make it a point to show me she can make it with out me...
I was told if I simply say "I want you to be happy" it will make her think that I have her best interest in mind and she would think "he is not being selfish and thinking about himself, he want me to bed happy" and I ultimately she wants to be with a person that makes her happy
OK, well, I don't agree with our db coach, I think its just pushing her away by justifying her giving up on a marriage she has done damage to as well... you are just enabling her escapism.. in my opinion at least... You ultimately have to decide if you think that's helping you or convincing her its ok to walk out on you and your marriage.. I am inclined from your posts to think its the latter...
I thought the method I was applying was generating positive results. It seems it was all false assumptions...db goals were met so I thought we were heading on the right path. It would seem everytime I fight for the marriage she pulls away and enforces that she wants out and starts to throw everything out on the table (verbally).
You need to weigh the db' coaches advice with that you will find in textbooks and from this forum... it isn't all going to be out of confict...
This is not an exact science unfortunately... I used a db coach myself and to this day I wish I had followed more of the advice on this forum much earlier... It in my opinion is better.. The db coach is limited to MWD's approach and with infidelity in particular I don't think its the best route... MWD is brilliant, but she doesn't specialize in infidelity.
With your case MWD may have more impact. But I don't agree with the "I just want you to be happy" mantra... Given her mental state I honestly don't think she's interpreting that in a way that is in your favour... You need to think really hard about how miserable and hopeless she's feeling and weigh what she will hear when you say stuff like that.
The db coach wants you to look favourable, and yes it may look warmer than a criticism but in my opinion it also sounds hopeless, supplicating, and ultimately sounds like surrender to divorce... It does NOT sound like you are pressing her with the understanding of what marriage is... and what it isnt.. Your wife is not well-educated re what a marriage is, you are learning this now... despite the ten years you have together, you two are newlyweds to what a real marriage is :
a. Your wife believes marriage is a disposable arrangement that you escape from when things get bad and you feel hopeless.
b. To my mind its a lifelong commitment that you escape TO when things get bad and you feel hopeless.
"I just want you to be happy" does not impart the second point in there at all... and I honeslty think its key point your wife needs to comprehend... not HEAR.. but comprehend.. it can take YEARS to understand those two points above... half of them never get it and just escape into yet another marriage later that has an even lower success rate - second marriages success rates are much lower than the first... why do you think that is...?
Its because they never figured it out the first time and they waste their lives chasing rainbows instead of building a home they can love and respect.
DBing will implicitly impart this point to its practitioners, but your wife is NOT trying.. she's still in escape mode. The best course in my opinion for you is to make the home as inviting as you can while doing what you can to impart the meaning of marriage by example... You can't lecture this into her, she needs to SEE it happen.
Right now you need to wear a suit of armor against her negative commentary. I realize she starts the relationship talks, but YOU need to finish them with a solid positive educated comment... You keep letting her lead them into a ditch and you both end up miserable... this just validates her position, rather than brings out the doubt more... you want her to DOUBT her leaving... You want her to second guess her escapism logic.
"I just want you to be happy" will NOT in my opinion bring that doubt to bear at all.
something like
Running away isn't going to make either of us feel better in the long term... no one enjoys a failed marriage on their conscience...
Put with warm with seriousness is going to hit home a lot more to my mind.
Its your choice what route you want to try, but here's your matra for both :
something like
a. I just want you to be happy
b. Running away isn't going to make either of us feel better in the long term... no one enjoys a failed marriage on their conscience...
Again you can tweak b, it can be worded more concisely with more time to think on it.
I have read approach a tried here with that exact line ... And it didn't make an impact ... Wayward spouses think happiness is something you escape to when things are bad, rather than something you build through a dedication to painful (in some cases) emotional growth... telling her to find happiness rather than to earn it at home is tantamount to asking her to run away.
To me, "I just want you to be happy" sounds like validation of escape, rather than a gentle reproach to how useless escape really is...
You need to weigh the db' coaches advice with that you will find in textbooks and from this forum... it isn't all going to be out of confict...
This is not an exact science unfortunately... I used a db coach myself and to this day I wish I had followed more of the advice on this forum much earlier... It in my opinion is better.. The db coach is limited to MWD's approach and with infidelity in particular I don't think its the best route... MWD is brilliant, but she doesn't specialize in infidelity.
With your case MWD may have more impact. But I don't agree with the "I just want you to be happy" mantra... Given her mental state I honestly don't think she's interpreting that in a way that is in your favour... You need to think really hard about how miserable and hopeless she's feeling and weigh what she will hear when you say stuff like that.
The db coach wants you to look favourable, and yes it may look warmer than a criticism but in my opinion it also sounds hopeless, supplicating, and ultimately sounds like surrender to divorce... It does NOT sound like you are pressing her with the understanding of what marriage is... and what it isnt.. Your wife is not well-educated re what a marriage is, you are learning this now... despite the ten years you have together, you two are newlyweds to what a real marriage is :
a. Your wife believes marriage is a disposable arrangement that you escape from when things get bad and you feel hopeless.
b. To my mind its a lifelong commitment that you escape TO when things get bad and you feel hopeless.
"I just want you to be happy" does not impart the second point in there at all... and I honeslty think its key point your wife needs to comprehend... not HEAR.. but comprehend.. it can take YEARS to understand those two points above... half of them never get it and just escape into yet another marriage later that has an even lower success rate - second marriages success rates are much lower than the first... why do you think that is...?
Its because they never figured it out the first time and they waste their lives chasing rainbows instead of building a home they can love and respect.
DBing will implicitly impart this point to its practitioners, but your wife is NOT trying.. she's still in escape mode. The best course in my opinion for you is to make the home as inviting as you can while doing what you can to impart the meaning of marriage by example... You can't lecture this into her, she needs to SEE it happen.
Right now you need to wear a suit of armor against her negative commentary. I realize she starts the relationship talks, but YOU need to finish them with a solid positive educated comment... You keep letting her lead them into a ditch and you both end up miserable... this just validates her position, rather than brings out the doubt more... you want her to DOUBT her leaving... You want her to second guess her escapism logic.
"I just want you to be happy" will NOT in my opinion bring that doubt to bear at all.
something like
Running away isn't going to make either of us feel better in the long term... no one enjoys a failed marriage on their conscience...
Put with warm with seriousness is going to hit home a lot more to my mind.
Its your choice what route you want to try, but here's your matra for both :
something like
a. I just want you to be happy
b. Running away isn't going to make either of us feel better in the long term... no one enjoys a failed marriage on their conscience...
Again you can tweak b, it can be worded more concisely with more time to think on it.
I have read approach a tried here with that exact line ... And it didn't make an impact ... Wayward spouses think happiness is something you escape to when things are bad, rather than something you build through a dedication to painful (in some cases) emotional growth... telling her to find happiness rather than to earn it at home is tantamount to asking her to run away.
To me, "I just want you to be happy" sounds like validation of escape, rather than a gentle reproach to how useless escape really is...
Gettin close!
I was looking for a good "Half-Whistle" icon, cuz that was actually 4-1/2, but I couldn't find one. LOL
DAMN the constraints of commercial IT... damn them to hell! lol
LOL.
Come to think of it, the entire site is woefully lacking in good smileys and emoticons. Puts a real leash on us creative whackos!
Puppy
I suppose so... Maybe I should be totalling up my whistles intead lol
Yes, exactly. You may not have gotten 5 yet, a la Ms. Tuppy, but you are among the leaders in the clubhouse for the "Lifetime Achievement Award," along with Coach, Robx and Sandi.
Or was that "Miss Congeniality?" I get them confused.
Puppy
I got five for my Ghandi Approach Thread back in the day... I'm the One Hit Wonder of infidelity posting lol
I keep lookin for a comback hit... still working on it.. lol
Well I think my W is officially obsessed with OM...again.
Today my W did a google search for OM name, first it started of as
"I like R" but then she stopped typing and did not hit search. R is the first letter of OM name.
Then W googled OM full name, then W looked for OM on youtube. apparently OM was on the show COPS a while back (he was animal control). My W was searching for that vid.
My W then searched OMW name, then searched OMW sister's name....
I am just gathering intel, so my W has no clue I know she did this.
What should I do next?
Is there any indication that OM is responsive to her interest?
She may just be daydreaming...
Only that they talk. Not like they use to but there is some chat going on. I don't want it to escalate though. According what I heard up till yesterday it was going fine besides a few words here and there. Then yesterday they spoke in non-group setting.
No phone logs, yet. However OMW is also keeping track of that.
on another note, I think I made a huge mistake.
W had phone that I pay for. As I had said W was sending self email which are copied to phone. I picked up phone today and seen many of the emails saved. Then I seen messages she saved when this all first started happening and even before then about how I was upset with our marriage and I admit when this first started to happen I was in panic mode making threats to harm myself....So I deleted these old messages but touch nothing else, even the one with the quotes...Did I make a huge mistake by doing this?
What should I say when she notices they are gone?
Oh Dear... you really need to get control of yourself OIN...
If you can't collect intel with a level head, don't do it.
If OM made a commitment to not talk to your wife and he's talking to her anyways you may want to contact OMW just to check in... Just ask her how marriage is doing, offer some sincere interest and concern... find out of there's anything going on that end...
If you really have the instinct here that something may be escalating again... You could even tell OMW that your wife is doing research and that OMW would benefit from posting something on facebook for HER marriage indicating its stronger hoping this might drive your wife away... she may be hoping that marriage there is failing, I dunno..
Tread carefully, control yourself...
If my W questions about the deleted messages do I come out and tell her "yes" and why or?
I was thinking of saying if she brought it up and I came clean...."I did, those messages reflect a time when I was not thinking clearly and had a horrible outlook on marriage and life in general."
Her holding those messages would be the same if I held on to messages when she told me ILY during a time when she was happy...would not be right or fair for me to throw those in her face and I don't think it is for her to do the same with messages that no longer hold meaning (never did).
I think a phone call may be in order. As you said, just to see how things are going on that end and maybe fill her in on what my W has been doing...
One more thing...if my W is "Daydreaming" how do I break her out of it? Do I ride it out?
You can't police her thoughts... THAT is a line you leave alone
Your aim is to motivate and influence, not break or control her... Your goal is to give her a REASON to act in the way you think is healthiest for you two...
How is the family therapist hunt going?
I would own them if she confronts you.. I am a bit confused as to who's mail is where and what's going on...
I am missing some of the details... so its hard to confirm what exactly you deleted from where and who owned it
My W has 2 phones. One in her name, her own service. One in my name, that she has had for years now. Both phones are still active.
The phone that is in my name, service I pay for, is a black berry. So whenever she is sent an email it is also download onto her black berry.
Today I picked up the blackberry and looked at the saved messages. I seen the aforementioned messages and deleted them. I deleted them from her phone, that I paid for on a service that I pay for. I did it for the above reason. If she confronts me and I own up to doing it, it what I typed acceptable response?
Also, I just spoke with my friend a short while ago. He said that the conversations between the two have been mutual. He would at times go up to her and engage in conversation. As I have been told all along, not like it was but communication has NOT stopped between the two.
I will be calling OMW tomorrow and let her know whats going on.
I seen a FT once, on the day of my 2nd appt the FT canceled on me. I have not gone back because I don't have the funds to do so. I don't even know if the FT I was going to was "the one"
Giving this current situation, how should it be handled? Do I confront W on the talk or just tell OMW and let her confront OM ( he will B.S. his way out of it anyway)
I thought I had combated this 'thing' between them and unfortunately it is starting back up.
The problem with the EA your wife was/is having is that they work together... the common wisdom on the subject... almost universally claims that ALL CONTACT must be cut off... COMPLETELY... for the affair to end... These two work together... They don't HAVE to do talk though, OM is CHOOSING to go up to talk to her...
I would let the OMW know and find out how she wants to play this... I think this can be handled without you even having to interact with your wife...
The mail is another thing... I really don't know why she has two phones in the first place... if you dont' need it and she isnt' using it you could just clear all the content and tell her you are cancelling the service since she has her own phone... why two damn phones?
I will call OMW. I really don't want to interact with W on this matter just yet because it can only go bad for us. Having OMW address this with OM and go from there.
W got her own line because when our sitch first began I took her phone and would not give it back because I refused to let her call OM with it. So W went out and got her own service. Initially W needed time to switch over all contacts ect. Now the issue is if I cancel the line I have to pay $175 for doing before end of contract date. She uses it, mainly to communicate with me.
I went back and checked logs again...W actually typed the following
"I want Rob" into google. Then backspaced to just the letter 'R' then backspaced the entire query. The did everything posted in previous post.
Not that this makes any bit of difference, but I believe my W is attracted to his personality. I seen the guy and he is not a 'looker' even his W says she was not attracted to him physically but more toward his personality.
This guy is a bullshi**er, and my W cannot see it.
chances are good that she won't look for old messages. if she confronts you on it, the answer above is good. It is the truth. Hard to beat. As for OMW, I won't give advice. But keep in mind what the others noted before, your wife probably feels like a prisoner. You could be bringing everything to a head here and forcing her to take some action that you won't like.
These were SAVED old messages, and it appeared she looked at then quite often, probably showing them off to people at work including him.
I called OMW this morning because we agreed that if either one of us heard anything we would call, so I did.
I ask OMW how the marriage and going and she said GREAT. She tol me about all this acts of service OM has been doing for her and gift he had bought her. For her B-Day he got her a card and highlighted many words in it and then wrote to her "I love you so much thank you for putting up me and sticking by me" something along those lines.
OMW was just is shock to hear they are talking again. She does not want him to talk to her at all. I told her about the google searches. OMW said that OM is feeding W BS because many of these things he is telling my W are not true such as, he was never on COPS and was never a dog control officer but this is what he is telling people particularly my W.
OMW has brother who works at airport, he was monitoring situation as well. OMW is going to bring up the talking to OM as if she heard it from her brother.
I told OMW, OM has to admit to talking to her because my W won't admit to talking to him. If she feels the need call me and assume my W will be on there other end as well if you want to get a point across. Either way OMW told me to call her on Monday for an update.
OMW has the right to defend her M too. So if she confronts her H about the situation, I hope my W feels mo pressure coming from my direction to make her feel trapped or like a prisoner, because technically its not me its OMW.
According to OMW marriage had been GREAT. OM cant keep hands off OMW, he is cleaning house, telling her how much he loves her ect...but then goes to work and engages with my W, breaking a commitment he made to his W.
Well apparently OM called OMW right after we ended our call. OMW lost her cool and started to say "I know you two are talking again" ect.. OM claims its ALL BS and someone is starting something on purpose and he thought things were going great, never admitting to talking to her once...
OM calls me. He ask "OIN, whats going on?" I say "what do you mean" he said well my W is hysterical someone is saying something about me and your W still talking. We had no communication since that day. I told him, "I have not spoke with you or anyone for that matter since that day and I too thought it was all settled" he said "well someone is starting something, I know my W has people watching, I am not stupid" and I replied "I don't know what she has going" and then he had to go because his W was walking is what he said...end of call.
What now?
Tell OMW to post all his recommitment efforts on facebook or something where your wife will see it.
It will help your wife to get over OM if she can see him declaring his love for his wife and buying her gifts...
OM is telling his wife one thing and YOUR wife another thing.. get the lies out in the open on the internet someplace so your wife can see all the lies...
She's doing searches on his name, haev someone post something on the internet with his name in the post indicating he lies and uses women or something... try to keep it factual though... Your wife is doing research, then put the truth on the internet if that's where she's researching... Right now the truth is hidden in his home for only his wife to know...
I just realized an additional benefit to OMW using facebook.
you can minimize your phone calls but keep up to date... If your WIFE brings OMW up and you calling her just tell her you will be trying to just use facebook from this point on to keep up to date with her... That sneaks in an invitation to your wife to check up OMW facebook.. and she WILL... OMW can post all the wonderful things OM is doing and saying on there for your wife to read ... this may very well help wake her up a bit that OM is a liar
Granted, it may backfire too and get your wife daydreaming about him hearing the positive stuff, but i doubt it... I would expect it to more likley annoy her
OK I will say something.
Again OMW and OM call me and have me on speaker.OM said "I think things are being blown out of proportion, apparently people are taken our "hi" and "bye" as us talking again and I realize now I need to stop even that. I thought that at least was OK." he then said "I have to do this for my marriage and for my W, I have to tell your W we cant even do that anymore, she has to know it all has to stop"
I said..."I hear what you are saying, and I want your marriage to work out, and I am happy things are going great BUT you telling my W something while your W is there does not accomplish much, my W may very well just say 'he is only saying that because is W is there' and not get the point you are trying to make. "
So OM and OMW wants to call back when my W gets home to say this to my W...
Is this going too far or being blown? Last thing I want it to make matter worse for my sitch...
I would get YOU out of it... your wife is going to turn YOU into a target if YOU are in that...
The idea I thought was for this to be OMW saying her brother is behind this?
Why are you there? Just step out of it or your wife is gonna blame you... let the call happen, but stay out of it if you can... Or at least in the call emphasize you haven't called for 7 weeks or whatever and that you aren't going to your wife's work or anything... plead innocense to following and watching or she will target you.
If OMW Brother is willing to take the hit let it go that route...
And ya I have heard that "I thought Hello was OK" crap before... All cheaters try that one...
You tell them no contact and they push it and when they get caught they try to squirm out of it by saying its just hello and good bye... which from your reports it is not just hello and good bye anyways... this guy is a real bull$hitter... why are marital interlopers all such sleazeball liars?
OK, so OMW called me after OM left. We agreed NOT to have no call. I advised her to say to OM
"I don't want you to call. We need to trust each other. Just know that I am trying to protect our marriage. Also know that even if I did not want people watching they will anyway and they will still call me because they are looking out for my best interest, they care about me. So I am going to just let it be and allow you to prove to me I can trust you."
OMW said that OM thinks it is one of OM good friends that is reporting back to OMW. OM friend has a "thing" for OMW and sometimes jokes to OMW and OM "I'll take you out to dinner, I'll do that for you." So OM thinks it is his friend who maybe reporting things back.
I plan on telling W I got the call just to keep honesty in our sitch, I get the feeling OM will tell my W anyway so why not let it be me who tells her.
OK, so OMW called me after OM left. We agreed NOT to have no call. I advised her to say to OM
What I meant to say is, there will be no phone call.
Yup, its a good choice to tell your wife... do NOT tell her in person, just text her or something... avoid a confrontation.
The only thing I would have changed from your speech above is "looking out for OUR best interset... they care about OUR MARRIAGE."
That would have been better, but I would still give it an A.
I get the impression that OM doens't like his buddy hitting on his wife... what a hypocrite... :P
-Plant narcotics in OM's car
-Get warrant
-Search vehicle, Find drugs
-Arrest and charge OM
-OM goes to jail
-Problem solved
Ok, maybe not the most mature route and mostly posted in levity but you cant fault the logic.
lol
There are a few flaws in the logic, but it's a kind gesture, thanks CK
Alright...
W came home from work. I said "There is something I would like to talk to you about."
We go upstairs and sit down on the bed. I told her the following
"I got a call from rob, at first I did not know it was, he said he was calling because his W had just called him, hysterical, talking about how you two are still talking"
My W had this look of shock in her eyes.
I went on to say
"He admitted, that you two are still talking, not like it was but still having conversations"
Now my W is filing her nails, something she does when she gets stressed out...
and said "yeah nothing like it was"
I said, the point is, he made a commitment to his W that he would end all communication with you and he failed to do that, and she found out now she is very upset.
My W started to talk about OMW as if she knows something I don't. W became very upset, I could see it in her face and detect it in her voice she wanted to cry.
W started to say how she does not understand why OMW won't just leave her alone ect.
I said "She is trying to protect her marriage, she sees you as a threat, it also sounds like he is trying to work on his marriage as well, he told me what he did for her for his W birthday and for mothers day, he said things were going great in his marriage till today"
W once again ignored what OM had said and went back to talking about OMW.
somewhere in our conversation I mentioned protecting our marriage and she said "That's nothing" as if it did not matter.
Also when I said how OM and OMW talked about how good their marriage is going and OMW is protecting her marriage my W said "Well I'm glad THEY'RE marriage is happy but what does that have to do with me, I'm sick of people watching over me"
I said to W "From what I was told, he is not going to speak to you anymore, not even a "hi" ." and she shrugged her shoulders and said "fine"
I then said "Since we are on this topic I want to tell you something that was said at the party a couple weeks back when your co-workers were there..." I went on to tell her how other people they work with try to distance themselves form him because he a chronic liar and bullsh*ter. Then I gave a specific example, one of which he has been feeding my W that is a lie, so I pretty much revealed the truth to her via 3rd party perspective.
W wanted to know who said this or what did they look like, I told he I don't remember because there was a group of us standing talking and I was focused on the hockey game at the time.
W very upset with OMW but not OM, she just does not get it.
W, as far as I can tell, does not suspect that I had anything to do with this or at least she did not lash out at me.
I started to talk to W about job application she should complete, telling her it is the opportunity she had been waiting for, don't let it pass her by, she worked too hard on her education not to apply. She gave in and we started to fill out the application...turns out due to residency requirements her application was rejected.
W then started to tell me a few things that happened at work today, just dumb people as she would put it...
We talked about how stressful her job is...
W said some woman told her "You have a great figure" I said to my W "She is right, you do."
I then had to run a few errands, W asked in my travels if I could pick up something for her...
W was conviced that OMW/OM would call back and asked that I leave my phone, so I told W to give me her phone, W said she wanted to hold onto all three. I said "let me see your phone" she opened it up and showed me her recent call history and said "I have nothing to hide"
I knew she was hiding something but I held back and said nothing
I left and returned an hour or so later, W was laying in bed, looking down and out. We had a brief convo about a couple things and here we are now....
I kept a very cool head through it all, W did not lash out at me but was VERY upset with OMW, she also seems depressed now.
I pretty much made it so that ALL pressure was coming from OMW. I did not want to stir things up between her and I.
I stayed calm and upbeat, I hope I did well and got the point across...I am sure I am leaving things out...
Also, I don't want to cross post in my threads but if anyone can look at my last two posts in this thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1980070&page=38and provide some advice about how I should address this concern
YOu handled it well... She was baiting you to argue about OMW, but it sounds like you were shrewd enough to not take the bait.. you let her rant about OMW and just let it go... good going!
She's gonna sulk for a few days, so try to not do anything to set her off... okay?
If OMW can be more public about OM's commitment to her and actions he's doing... public so your wife will get the message that OM is NOT going there... that would likely help... all she sees or hears is what HE tells her and what her imagination cooks up... if OMW can start posting her positives on her facebook I suspect that your wife will read them and get the hint...
After, I had comeback home, it has not come back up. W slept for most of the night. I had feel to sleep myself, W woke up and took shower ect... W then laid back in bed and we watched TV until she went to bed just a few min ago.
When we spoke it was not as bitter as I anticipated. I carried on as if earlier did not happen. Not sure if that is the correct thing to do but I did not want to project my dissapointment in the situation and feed into any negative emoitions she is having.
My W does seem mopy. OM is working tomorrow, W probably feels anxious about going to work.
should it concern me that W is not as bitter toward as she had been in the past when we had OM discussions?
The one image that continues to enter my mind over and over again is my W typing "I want Rob" in google search.
What course of action do I take? Do I distance myself and make little conversation as possible or do I continue to DB as I was before this discovery?
I will read over the FT's tomorrow, can't type much...
There's too many variables to suggest much at the moment... just let her mope and be supportive...
the one drawback of intel is that it CAN traumatize those without the stomach to get past it...
Just keep up the dbing... I do think its making a dent...
Seriously OIN lets ask this question.. if your wife REALLY wanted to leave is there NOWHERE she could go?
I am just wondering why if she is so determined to exit why she hasn't done so... I honeslty think she has her doubts too... do NOT bring that up.. EVER... it is tantamount to challenging her to walk out.
I don't think so. Besides those 'friends' at work, she has no friends. She has family she could possibly go to but I don't think she wants them to know our issues, I think she feels embarrassed.
She said at one point "people keep telling me to leave and get out of this bad situation" She said her father and father's GF had said this. She also said that her father offered/suggested she come stay with him, she turned down the offer because it is 2 hours away from her work place (one way).
That is the reasoning my W gave me, so I heard often
- I am counting down the days
- Soon as my father has the place ready, I am leaving
- I am just co-existing
and so on...
My W is so withdrawn and detached from everything that she does nothing. She has abandoned the care of our pets including feeding, cleaning up after ect. She puts no effort into the upkeep of our home. She just eats, sleeps, watches TV...
My W is so withdrawn and detached from everything that she does nothing. She has abandoned the care of our pets including feeding, cleaning up after ect. She puts no effort into the upkeep of our home. She just eats, sleeps, watches TV...
Right... THAT is going to make that bad situation dissappear all right...
These people are right, she DOES need to get out of the bad situation. Anyone in a marriage dealing with painful issues needs to get out of THAT situation, but that does NOT mean to get out of the marriage. It means to active do everything you can to IMPROVE the QUALITY of the marriage.
Soon it may be time to start hitting her with a few simple direct points like that when she complains.
Not put meanly, but when she says she's not happy, rather than blaming you ask herself what SHE can do HERE to IMPROVE things for the two of you... she doens't look like she's doing anything. Yah I know she did for ten years...
Well, it helped her then, and NOW she doens't do it... so guess what... her DOING that again would likely help...
You are right. Now once every couple weeks or so, I will come home or wake up to a clean house. She'll clean and organize entire rooms of the house but she does not do the little things (thing I guess can be overlooked). If I say something, I feel like I am then establishing a father-daughter relationship which I DO NOT WANT. Yes, I sat around for many years doing nothing, not even the little things and let her do all the work.
What I found odd and I mentioned this in my other thread. little over a week ago W was on facebook uploading pictures of herself at our wedding, she even included a picture of us on our honeymoon. She then put the pictures on her phone.... a couple days later she is on a family members facebook page looking at their photos and she comes across a picture of us holding hands at our wedding. She saves the picture then sends it to herself in email and it is now on her phone. She then went through our wedding photos folder and there were a couple pictures of her and her family at our wedding, and she sent them to herself in email. The file size was too large for her to download them to her phone though.
The drawback to all this, W was never into facebook and now check it everyday when before maybe once every 4-5 months she might check it out.
I never questioned why she uploaded these photos, but I assumed that she would assume by doing so I would think there was a slight glimmer of hope, so why do it?
I spoke with OMW this morning. She once again told me how great there marriage has been. Sh said before this all happened she even was questioning whether or not she wanted tobe married to OM, once all of this settled they became closer than ever. OM going out of his way to please his W and tells her how much he loves her and how happy her is she stuck by him ect..She said they're sex life is greater than it was before and there has even been talks about a second child.
I told OMW I was happy for them and keep at it and on him. I gave her some DB tips and suggested she read 5LL. I told her to start updating her facebook page and make profile public and say how happy they're marriage is.
She once again told me how great there marriage has been... they became closer than ever. OM going out of his way to please his W and tells her how much he loves her and how happy her is she stuck by him ect..She said they're sex life is greater than it was before and there has even been talks about a second child.
That is the exact content she should put on facebook, talking about HER having sex with OM and them talking about a second child.. your wife reads that often enough and it should drive this ridiculous fantasy out of her head...
if your wife IS doing some house work don't worry much over that... As long as she's making some effort.
By work I meant her either doing something to enhance her marriage OR taking the time to research how.
Complaining that something sucks doens't HELP, it just makes it worse... REBULDING what's broken or at least researching HOW is the route she should be taking... complaining and escaping solves nothing...
I just have to figure out how to word that in once gentle but impacting stentence...
As long as your wife keeps fantasizing about OM she's still cheating and she's got to knock that off...
The best way to put an end to that is as always.. hit her with reality... Indirectly is your BEST option here... her reading OMW facebook account and learning OMW is having sex with OM and them planning a second child will show her pretty clearly that DOOR is CLOSED. AND you don't end up looking like the bad guy cause you weren't involved.
Your wife IS lying to you in a way. You warned her that she was a threat to OMW's marriage and she denied it... But secretly she's doing google searches on the guy and fantasizing about him, not to mention pursuing conversation with him after being explicitly asked NOT to...
She IS a threat, and I think she KNOWS that... but she LIED to you and covered that fact up.
I don't know if you telling her she is a threat helps your case though, it may even give her some silly hope that her fantasy has a chance of happening for real...
OMW needs to show your wife that your wife is NOT a threat at some point. THAT is going to kill this thing for good... when your wife actually realizes she's NOT going to put a dent in that marriage... Right now I think she still hopes she can...
If they have that baby and "new love", the wife will be awoken out of that particular fantasy.
The only problem is, OMW is ignorant when it comes to facebook, she has an account but as she told me rarely goes on it. She said she would ask help from someone at work. Her profile it not public though so my W would have to be her friend in order to see these comments.
I am trying to think of other ways to get the point across,if not face book.
What I need is some ammunition that will help create doubt in my W head without pushing her away or making her feel like she has to prove a point. I like the way you put it in a earlier post
"Running away is not going to make either of us happy in long term"
I need more lines like this, I can't use the same one over and over when she brings up the fact she is leaving. I have thought of a few but then when I said them over in my head they came across as pursuit or as if I was daring her. Almost like "You cant be happy out there without me, prove it" and that is NOT how I want it to come out.
OfficerInNeed,
I think if OM and OMW continue on the path they are on you don't have to help it any. Your wife will eventually come to the conclusion on her own. She will sting in pain, and you are going to be there to catch her.
All you can do is wait, and be taking care of yourself while you do. I wish I was in the same position as you are today.
The problem DLS is that OM is NOT setting the record straight with OIN's wife.. he's leading her on...
If OM was acting like a husband and an adult OIN your wife would not HAVE these fantasies... OM is feeding them to her somehow... Or at the very last he's NOT saying anything to dispell them... I can't imagine your wife is just stalking this guy and he's completely innocent... your wife got these ideas in her head from someplace... He's leading her on somehow.. and he's got to knock it off... I suspect he's telling his wife one thing and telling YOUR wife something else in private.
Right now he's painting it out like he's completely innocent and your wife is some sociopathic stalker.. I doubt that's the truth of the matter... I think he's more involved in this than he's letting on...
That's why I wanted the facebook thing, it was ONE STORY in writing that BOTH women would be reading... it cuts out all the lies when its written and in public view...
You could tell your wife you want to REDUCE the amount of calls you get from over there and asked her to look into using facebook to keep you updated...
Then OMW sends you BOTH invites to her facebook account as friends in the GUISE of her not wanting to call you so often.
She just has to update the account regularly...
Facebook is stupid for the most part, I have seen so many people hurt and cheated on with that damn software it's sickening...
But it may prove of some use here...
Today is now a continuation of yesterday.
W comes home, I tell her how the dog hurt herself ect.. W goes up stairs and W said "you going somewhere?" I said "I thought we were going to visit you <fathers GF name> at the hospital" she said "I don't know yet, I am in an aggravated mood, I been in one since yesterday....I just want to know who said this"
Then she asks "any phone calls?" I said "you would be the first to know if I got a phone call" she replied "Let me find out you know who is telling her these things and your not telling me. It is better you tell me know then later."
I said "Who she has looking out for their marriage is beyond me, I told you everything that was said and how it came about, it caught me by surprise, according to them their marriage was going great and then this nonsense happens" and W says "Yeah and I want to know who"
The conversation carried on...W said "I work with these people an I think we are all civil and here they are talking behind my back, I want to know who it is so I can confront them or at least avoid them and know not to be around them"
Here is where I kind of applied pressure
I said "I dont know who it is, why would it matter, if there is nothing to hide or nothing going on then the person would have nothing to report to his W"
W responded "There is nothing going on that's the thing, a hi or bye ? cant even do that is how it is, so its like F-U and carry on?"
I said "TO be honest, I think that is the point they are trying to make, no communication."
I said "People talk, they say things, when they were saying how you were sleeping with him that did not phase you, you simply said 'people can say whatever they want' and now someone said you two were talking and you are extremely stressed over it, I don't get it, doe snot bother you they say you were having sex but does when they say you two are talking??"
W said "Now your getting ridiculous...I had an idea who was saying the stuff before, I don't know who is saying this now and I want to know who.."
Then I started to try to calm her "I hate seeing you like this, all stressed out, it is preventing you from living your life and doing things. You tell me how stressful this job is and how you hate it, why not get away from the stress? For years you said this job makes you miserable"
W said "your right and I am still there, cause there is nothing else"
I said "Move to a job less stressful, what is holding you back?"
W said "Because I need the money to pay bills"
I replied "There are far less stressful jobs out there that pay comparable"
W just gave me a look and said "I'm going to take a bath" and closed the door.... I said "OK, try and relax"
I am sure I left some out and I hope I handled this OK. I tried not to argue her feelings but make it a point this is what OMW/OM want...
OK a little more was said after she got out of bath and came into bedroom
W came in room, grabbed computer, went onto facebook...
I had made a post on facebook a day or so ago
Psalms 109:2, "For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the
deceitful are opened against me: they have spoken against me with a
lying tongue."
I been posting bible quotes on facebook fro a couple months now...She asked "Whats this?" I asked "What" and she said "This post you made, what is that suppose to mean?"
I said "Its a quote from the bible that I liked" and she said "I know its a quote form the bible but why this one, and she had a slight smirk on her face"
I said "Nothing to it, I don't like dishonest people and neither does the LORD and read the quote, liked it and posted it."
Maybe I went a little too far with the quote posting...
Wife then shut down her computer and covered up.
I asked W "Do you plan on going up to the hospital?"
W replied "I am very stressed out, I do not feel like doing anything"
I said "We have not went up to her in a few weeks, last time I went she was asking about you, it's not fair to her...don't let this consume you"
Then a few moments later I said "You been working where you are for 3 years now, 2 months into the job you started to tell me how much you hate it and how stressful it is. For nearly 3 years every day you would come home tired and stressed out...I hate seeing you like that or know that this job makes you feel this way. You told me the people you deal with and the people you work with stress you out, you hate the job. You worked so hard toward your education I would hate for you to give it up for a job you can't stand. Consider a leave of absence or go to part time and put focus back on your education, you owe it to yourself."
I probably went overboard that is why I ended it there. She has a lot in her head, a lot to think about and I just gave her more to think about so I am going to back off and give her space.
Yes back off for now.. she very likley is going to get suspeicious that you are just trying to get her AWAY from OM
Let me warn you one thing.. if your wife leaves there then you have no one watching out for her... a lot of fresh new people at a new worokplace and you know none of them so have no contacts tehre..
I would just let her stay where she is if that's what she wants right now... infidelity often dies out like this... something that seemed romantic and exciting becomes ugly, stressful, and something they want to AVOID instead... she's experiencing that now... the gossip, the lies, the exposure... she hates it, but she and OM created this environment.. let her LIVE in that for a while... she needs to LEARN what straying and following other men around DOES... if you tell her to LEAVE and escape she learns nOTHING...
THis is the SAME message you want her to learn about marraige... I would be encouraging her to STAY and REBUILD her reputation there rather than telling her to escape... you arnent helping yourself...
That did cross my mind, great point. Is it OK for me to say something? I need something that says in not so many words
"Stay there, economy sucks, nothing else out there, be grateful you have this, go to part time if necessary. People would love to have your job right now."
How can I retract what I said without retracting?
Just leave it, she sounds determined to stay there.
The other thing is, she COULD look for work closer to her father's place... another reason I think she's just bluffing.. or at least isn't 100% out the door.
If she really wanted out OIN, she would leave... there's always a way out.. she's holding back ...
Just leave the work thing for her.. if she wants out help her, but don't PUSH her to leave there... I don't think that's gonna help you or your marriage right now... she is way too vulnerable and escapism is NOT something you want her to be learning his a good thing ...
Don't be negative and tell her to stay, just nod and let her drive her career choices..
OK
I was wondering if saying something like
"I wanted to say one last thing and I will let it go unless you want to talk about it. I thought about it more and realize that leaving work is not the best idea at the moment. There is nothing else out there and thank god you even have a job."
Or just let it go. She hated this job for a very long time. We tried and tried to find her a new job but had no success because the economy her just sucks.
Her father lives in the middle of nowhere, there is nothing close to him. When he moves to the house he is fixing up for him and her, it is closer and within driving distance for her current employment.
Officer, I found the following excerpt from another forum. And this is motivation to any of us currently being cheated on:
"First, let me say that I never reccommend working it out with a cheater. Despite her "good reasons " for cheating, she has been unfaithful and that is unacceptable. but fix it and just swallow the crap is pretty much the way of modern thought. You going the extra ten miles to please her in bed is such a fine reward for her infidelity. When raising kids or training animals , you never reward bad behavior because it re-enforces the idea that they can get what they want through bad behavior. Adult humans are no different. Beyond that...
My real question is how do you know he was hung? And how hung was he supposedly?"
Its pretty much saying don't reward the infidelity.
I don't think you say anything to her, and you let this situation burn her because it sounds like OM and OMW are going to get back together, wife will be left out.
I don't know why this fantasy makes the OM relationship so much more important to yours where she will say "whatever".
Complaining that something sucks doens't HELP, it just makes it worse... REBULDING what's broken or at least researching HOW is the route she should be taking... complaining and escaping solves nothing...
I just have to figure out how to word that in once gentle but impacting stentence...
I am all ears.
I would say NOTHING about her workplace OIN.. just leave it alone... you can't do anything there... let it go... if you push it with even one more syllable she is going to get suspicuios... walk away from that NOW
I won't say anything more about work place. I am actually not going to say anything, I am going to allow her to initiate all conversation, and I shall respond upbeat and pleasant.
I am just trying to prepare responses for possible things she will say....I had it programmed to say "I just want you to be happy"
W woke up after sleeping all day. She W to the kitchen and made herself something to eat. As W was walking upstairs she said "oohhhhhhhh OIN I did it again" I started to get up and say "what" and W said "I forgot to get allergy medicine again"
I said something along the lines of "that stinks"
W the ate and said "I did not eat all day and now I feel like I ate to much" W then went back to sleep with upset stomach.
How is "that stinks" upbeat? lol
Well...I was more being empathetic. Like "Ahhh man, that stinks" hmmm it sound good at the time.
If you can, try to offer HOPE... particularly when she's feeling down... It will make you someone to turn to.
If she experiences a set back and history of your support is "that stinks" she's not going to turn to you... she's going to turn somewhere else...
Offer help in some way or give her a hug if she's open to it... Did she need to buy some or did she just forget to take medication that she had available in the home?
Buy her a weekly meds box.. it has each day blocked out into its own container she can put meds into .. it makes medication much easier to manage...
These suggestions may not fit, but you get the idea... HELP in some way... "that stinks" isnt' going to make her want to come to you when she's down... or otherwise feeling out of sorts
I still think she needs a swift kick in the ass, or at least tell her to get her head out of hers. But I seem to be the only one.
Puppy
I still think she needs a swift kick in the ass, or at least tell her to get her head out of hers. But I seem to be the only one.
Puppy
You are not the only one. And how many hours a day does this woman sleep? Holy cow!
Sleep, bitch, moan, sick. Sleep, bitch, moan, sick.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Puppy
I strongly suspect she's got depression... One of the side effects is lack of energy... My wife experiences depression as well, and when she does, she sleeps.
Another side effect is the negative attitude. She's miserable and the depression is aggravating it.
The PROBLEM with this woman is she won't DO anything about it, but wants to blame OIN for it all... its a difficult situation.
Offer help in some way or give her a hug if she's open to it... Did she need to buy some or did she just forget to take medication that she had available in the home?
It is a prescription that was suppose to be sent to the pharmacy a few days ago after a Dr visit but forgot to pick it up 2 days in a row.
The night before, when she told me she forgot to pick it up, I said I would run to the pharmacy for her but it had already closed. I then assisted her in searching for her old allergy meds just to get her through the work day, we ended up finding one pill.
A hug? out of the question. I have not tried in a while nearly 2 months now, but when we sleep in the same bed and we happen to nudge against on another she instantly changes her body position.
Update:
This morning called off work. I got up and got ready for church, just before I was leaving W asked if I could swing by pharmacy to pick up meds, and I agreed to do so.
While I was at church W searched the following in google...
"Fathers rights to child" , "can she keep child away" , "father's have same rights as mothers"
I found this VERY ODD. OM does have one son.
W I walked into bedroom W was looking at quotes on websites, She looked at me and said "I'm going to put a clever quote on my facebook" the quotes were about people talking about someone behind their backs ect..
W also looking at "Love quotes again"
Here are some quotes she just sent herself in email...
I miss you when something really good happens, because you are the one I want to share it with. I miss you when something is troubling me, because you are the one who understands me so well. I miss you when I laugh and cry because i know that you are the one that makes my laughter grow and my tears disappear. I miss you all the time, but I miss you most when i lay awake at night and think of all the wonderful times we spent with eachother;for those were some of the best times of my life
The people who really care won't hurt you, but if they do, you'll see it in their eyes, for they'll be hurting too.
Maybe some people just aren't meant to stay in our lives forever, maybe some people are just passing through. It's like some people just come through our lives to bring us something, a lesson we need to learn, and that's why they are there.
There will always be people you can't believe you were friends with, boys you can't believe you kissed, and people you can't believe you lived without... people change but if you're lucky a certain few will change you.
W came downstairs and was dress and ready to leave. I assumed we were going to visit FIL GF at hospital so I started to get ready myself.
W said - "I am going to pick up my script, then I will be back in a little bit"
Me - "We're not going to visit"
W - "Not today"
Me - "Oh, OK"
W - "I don't feel good and I don't want her to see me like this cause then she will worry"
Me - "That's understood. Why are you taking your gun with you?"
W - "Because I feel like it, I waited a year to get a permit to carry it"
Me - "No, nothing wrong with that"
W - "Don't worry, I am not going to shoot anyone"
Me - "Or yourself"
W - "I would not do that to my father"
After a few of silence
Me - "I am concerned about you"
W - "You don't need to be"
Me - "You say you would not do that because of your father but other wise you would"
W - "No, I am saying my father is everything, so I would not do that to him and be that selfish. You know how much he means to me, he is the reason why I still live in this area"
As an FYI W decided long ago that she wanted to remain in this area rather than seek a career elsewhere, I even encouraged her to do so and that I would make the career adjustment, W said she loved me wanted to spend life with me and start a family together, so she did not seek a career elsewhere.
Me - "I know how much your father means to you. I am just concerned that's all."
W - with a very disgusted look on her face "You don't need to be"
and then she walked out the door.
============================================
W is so obsessed with OM. W sees us as a mistake, that is actually part of her password for some website logins.
I'm beginning to believe this divorce is NOT and CANNOT be busted.
W is making me out to be worse of a person than I really was.
W acts like everything she ever said was all a mistake and
wishes we never happened.
W just posted this quote on facebook before she left
Everyone sees who I appear to be but only a few know the
real me, you only see what I choose to show there's
so much behind my smile you just don't know.
I am not a pro by any means- it's not fair for any of us to assume anything- BUT- I feel as though she is indeed depressed and trying to figure out her life.
Perhaps she's still grieving r w/ OM or trying to figure out her feelings for you- probably both.
Forgive me if I am pointing out the obvious-
I can say this though- she doesn't even know how she feels-
My WAW returned briefly- spoke about how she wanted children, how she wished she was w/ me when I visited my birth sister, etc, etc.
Similarly- since she's bolted yet again, her quotes are "do not grieve the past or fear the future, but make the present as beautiful as you can."
People often exaggerate their "mind set" when they are confused so that they are offered reassurance...I know this is the case w/ my W.
Your W is still in the house- and it seems as though you are doing well to not aggravate the sitch.
Remember, it is her shirt, not yours. Be the best you can be, and do not exude any negativity- that is the real killer in these sitches.
going off of her quote- ask yourself-
"do you want to be w/ someone whom hides their true self?"
My sitch is exactly the same- even down to the possibility of the D being unavoidable...
Some people do indeed change- they choose who they wish to take on into their "new" life.
You can be that person, but it will be W's choice.
She has walls built up- keeping you out. It's sad b/c we know this- my W also has made me to be a monster- sadly, I have even acted the part in my sitch.
How are you? What are you feeling? Are you detached?
I'm glad that you are concerned about W, and I know it's frustrating the W does not seem to care that you are.
The irony in all these sitches is that WAS is going through so much pain- LBS is as well, and would like nothing but to be there for WAS- instead WAS will be open to anyone but LBS.
I hope you're well...from the sounds of it you are detached, just remember to be positive...that is key.
Poetry... The last resort of the hopeless...
Hang in there OIN... We have all been there...
What to do?
Do I confront her about my findings?
Do I start to distance myself and prepare for a separation?
This though, I cannot possibly imagine my W ever wanting to work things out. How can I gain her emotionally when she is emotionally attached to someone else and thinks everything we had/were is a huge mistake??
W returned home few min ago. I did not ask her were she went to. I asked if she did get allergy meds and she said she did I replied "That is good, I would hate for you to get sick again" she carried on as if I just said nothing. W would barely look at me and just talked to the dog.
You have to realize that she may not be mad at you... She's likley still PO'd at OMW...
You need to tough through it OIN... That's how we all cope... keep busy, volunteer work, offer her an inviting place to turn to when she has a bad day.. and wait it out.. patience is a necessity here... It's not an option...
She'll get over OM, but he needs to send a VERY STRONG MESSAGE that he is NOT at ALL interested in her... He's NOT been doing that... I suspect he enjoys her chasing him and has been encouraging it... I don't buy is innocent victim story at all...
Yes, my W is made at OMW and those who are keeping an eye on them at work.
W is also made at me for our failed marriage and as she would refer to it as a "mistake"
I am doing my best to cope.
W also has STRONG relationship with her father and what plays in her head is what he told each of us when this all started
"Just look at me and her/your mother, we are both happier now then when we were married"
I can almost guarantee that there is no part of my W at the moment that likes any part of me or our marriage.
She wants OM, not me. She wants a new life, without me. Should I sit back and pretend I don't see these things?
You are interpreting her MOOD as her COMMITMENT... STOP it.
I agree- if you allow these things to take hold, you will appear insecure- that is the last thing you want to be perceived as...
ignore them- after all it is her problem, not yours- you know what you want and what is important to you
Time for a 2 x 4 OIN.
There are many people on this forum who would GLADly trade places with you... those same people manage to keep fighting each day... you can do it too... these people would be SO HAPPY and confident to be where you are now... you are sitting well...
And Jas is right... your wife WILL feed off your worrying... HOPE is what you want to project.. HOPE for her Marriage... she needs to feel your energy there..
Poetry... The last resort of the hopeless...
Hang in there OIN... We have all been there...
Hmmm, makes me wonder.
My wife was sending love poetry to her old (married) HS boyfriend and posting it on her facebook and classmates page.
Your posting made me wonder if she is feeling hopless because of the fact that she can not have him since he is married and has five kids and lives in FL. It makes sense now. She cant have him but had no problem throwing me and her family away to chase her fantasy. Lovely!
Sorry for the highjack.
You are interpreting her MOOD as her COMMITMENT... STOP it.
Allen,
My W is browsing wedding dresses online. My W is searching quotes of love toward OM online and saving them. My W is searching how OM can retain custody of his child or have same rights as OMW.
I acknowledge this could all be fantasy in her head but at the same time I won't put anything past the two.
My W has changed passwords for accounts to include the word 'mistake'
My W tells me OM knows the real her and I do not.
I understand there are far worse sitches on this forum and for that I empathize but to me this is devastating.
As for how the remainder of the day went.
W decided she would go up tot he hospital and visit FIL GF. I asked if it was OK if I too went, W said it was fine.
We went up to visit. On the way up there we had serious talk regarding FIL situation and my W brother's outlook (whole other story). W also told me where she went when she left earlier.
W visit for a little bit. I exhibit a caring person showing compassion for FIL GF. I went out my way to track down a nurse to get her meds.
When we were leaving I gave FIL GF a hug and words of encouragement. W did same and as we walked out W said "We love you"
On the way home we talked more about brother and then sister of my W.
We then spoke about MIL. My W has grudge against her mother saying "I don't know where her head is, the problem is, she got married to my father at 17 then had children in her 20s, then when her and my father separated she went back to being a teenager....going out all the time ect.."
I wonder if that how W sees herself now, we met when she was 14..
We then spoke about taking the dog for a walk and seeing the sunset. So we went to the waterfront with our dog took pictures, fooled around with the dog watched some of the sunset then went home...
on the way home we stopped for some food (take out) went home and ate and watched TV. W is now in bed.
W has been very distant. I recall when we would go to the same place and watch the sunsets and how close us to were...
It feels odd, it is like she is someone else W or GF.
OIN, what state are you in?
Puppy
Mental state or residency?
I reside in NY state.
LOL -- I meant geographically. Just trying to figure out what time she went to bed.
Hey, I know I give you lots of crap, OIN, but I really am pulling for you. I do admire your tenacity.
Puppy
Got it, thanks.
Yeah she sleeps a lot.
Her mood is driving her right now OIN... You have to pocket that crap and keep pushing.
I realize it's devastating... we all feel like some alien mothership has taken the brains of our spouse and replaced them with some sinister program to drive us all into a mad house...
You have to trust your ten years together and that it has some pull for you. You have to trust that there is a bond there that she's HIDING from you and right now would never admit to.
You have to trust that she's staying there with you right now because she wants to.
And I firmly believe that if she DID want out of there she would be out.
I honeslty think she's partly testing your resolve.. there's a lot of hurt there so you are gonna get a lot of hoops tossed at you... You need to hit every one on the mark.
If she wanted to cut things off OIN she woudln't be talking to you, she wouldn't be allowing you to keep her company to visit her FGF or any of this... there is an attachment there that she doens't even understand.
You need to trust that she will come back sometime... it may take many months yet.. But I honestly think she's giving you a chance here... I don't know if even SHE realizes it, but her actions are giving you chances every time she talks to you or allows you to come along with her... She's giving you hoops every day.. just keep hitting them and hang in there man.
You have to trust your ten years together and that it has some pull for you. You have to trust that there is a bond there that she's HIDING from you and right now would never admit to.
I could only hope on the other hand I said and did some terrible things.
=========================================
I checked the phone logs. During the time my W had left this morning/early afternoon she had text a female from work (about 20 text msgs in exchange). This is the same female who has, what I come to understand, open relationship with her husband. She is seeing someone my W and her work with. The person this female co-worker is seeing is best friends with OM.
The first text msg was right after I left for church. Once the text messages began my W then started to do all those google searches for "father rights to child."
I am not sure if this female/her 'boy friend' are acting as mediators for my W and OM.
My W is hiding so much from me but yet says "I have nothing to hide"...I want to call her out on so much but yet I act as if I m ignorant to it all...
You have to trust that she's staying there with you right now because she wants to.
And I firmly believe that if she DID want out of there she would be out.
I don't know about this. I have a feeling that if OM was single she'd be gone. It's been joked about that women are like monkeys, they don't let go of one branch until they have a hold on another. Demeaning but also sometimes very true.
Your wife could be doing a computer search to help her friend. So far, OM is not trying to steal your wife. On the other hand, he doesn't mind the attention she gives him. But that is not the same as proposing to her and running off with her. So relax. Let the chips fall where they may. Eventually, OM is going to have to let her know he is not looking for a new wife. I assume that she doesn't show this whiny, sick, miserable side to him. She must save that for you.
This morning I spoke with OMW. I told her about the whole facebook idea. She said she would do it, so we'll see. I told her that OM has to make it clear there is nothing there and he is happily married.
As for us:
W woke this morning and did a little cleaning in the kitchen. W then put the bird feeder together and outside (been sitting around since Feb).
I eventually went down stairs and W told me the things she did (in a mopy bitter tone). The other day I had purchased some things to dress up the kitchen but have yet had the opportunity to install them. I showed this things off to the W. She had made out a list of things we had to get for the house (little things like garbage can, paper towels ect..).
I was showing W new light switched covers she said "they look nice" W then walked out to living room and said
"My Father put a new sink in at the house, all he has to do is install a hot water tank and the place will be ready for me."
I walked out to her and said to her is a very humbling voice "W NAME, running away is not going to make things better for either of us in the long term"
W replied "I am not running away, I am doing what I have to do."
Then I said "No one enjoys a failed marriage on their conscience"
W replied "Who said I am enjoying this, I didn't have to chance to enjoy it"
I then said "All I am saying, running from this all is not the answer"
She replied once more "I am not running"
I went up stairs, W took the dog outside to brush her. W brought dog upstairs to show me how she looked after she was brushed down. Then W went into shower....
I expect an onslaught of "I am leaving" today, I need some ammunition/responses.
"You walk out that door and yes you ARE running"
"Adults deal with problems they don't run to their father's home to hide"
"I guess I will have to keep working on this marriage on my own... I would prefer you joined me it would improve a lot faster if we both worked on it"
OIN,
Its going to be nearly impossible for her to not do what she feels. I wish I had the answer for you. Its obvious that she feels strongly to do what she's doing.
good...I will tweak/combine those....anything in mind that wont come across as me being ass? something that would really make her think? TO her she HAS TO LEAVE, because she feels it is the way to happiness...getting rid of me is happiness for her.
Sadly, that's a journey she may just have to take. If she does you may have to take a step back and decide what is a dealbreaker for you. Would her having a PA be a dealbreaker for you?
OfficerInNeed,
Before she leaves you can make yourself scarce, so she can have the entire space of your property. While you make yourself scarce, your having fun and doing what you want to do.
Pieces of all these sitches sound like mine. What you said "TO her she HAS TO LEAVE, because she feels it is the way to happiness...getting rid of me is happiness for her.", I don't know how they got to this point.
I worked on it and I believe as a result of the affair, we become an impedent and threat to their affair - which they correlate to happiness.
Its how we become an enemy and we didn't do anything.
Yes, PA would certainly cause me to move on. I am having trouble with EA. My W has giving someone else her heart and thoughts. My thinks this person know her better than I do. I spent 10 years of my life learning my W, OM talks to her for nearly a month and she thinks he knows her better?
As an update.
After my W came out the shower earlier, she laid in bed next to me (with just a towel wrapped around her). We decided to go shopping. We went to a few stores got things we needed. A few times W spoke future tense...many times W was short with me. It seems like I can't engage her and I get a stale response to somethings.
We get back home we play baseball in yard (I just pitched the ball to her and she attempted to hit it). We then played Kan Jam for a while at the same time fooled around with the dog.
Even though W was participating she just did not seem too into it. She cracked a smile a few times but seemed like she was holding back.
We eventually went in...W wanted to deep fry some veggies but deep fryer was missing. We sat on the couch having VERY small talk, mainly about the dog.
W then went upstairs and went into the bath before going she asked if I could heat something up in the oven.
AS mentioned earlier, I suspect my W will start saying she is leaving more often, even more so because from what she tells me the apartment is almost ready. I need something I can say to her that would put doubt in her head
I thought the following up.
"Married couples who are adults work things out, they don't run from a situation, they make the situation better"
I have to think up some more..
Or maybe use the term "leave the situation"... she seems to want to sidestep run.
BUt more to the point OIN, you need to say it and WALK AWAY.
You turn that into an argument and you will always lose. ARgument demands rationality... and your wife isn't willing to play that game. TO have a rational conversation you both have to follow the rules.
The best thing to do is come up with some really good heavy hitters for her and say them and t hen walk away... It gives what you said time to resonate in her head... when some comes up with a sidestep to it, no matter how pathetic it allows her to ignore hwat you said... GET THE LAST WORD IN.
Even if your wife leaves, the dog stays there... don't let her take the dog too.
SHe wants to leave, tell her the dog stays with the home she's abaondoning... the dog isn't abaonding the home, she is.
SHe may need a few weeks there to start missing the home... It does happen.
I like what Daddy LS said- make yourself scarce...
Look last week my W canceled MC and we got into it b/c she said she wanted to D...I made a fool out of myself...left my wedding band at her job and pulled away...
W said she wouldn't speak to me b/c she felt she was being manipulated...
Last night I get texts saying "I've been reading 'When Love Dies', I'm confused, so much could be different..."
And way more pursuit from her today- b/c she knows I'm leaving town and having someone else watch my dog...
What I'm saying is the push-pull BS is the way it is...it sucks and thats why detaching is key...
When your W said "then I can move." She already knows you don't want her to go, and that you believe she's running away...
Try saying nothing, almost like she didn't say it at all- going about your business, enjoying life and being happy.
I couldn't understand the concept in my own sitch- but it worked.
Think about it at the very beginning- day after d-day- if you did what i did, I wrote out everything I could- it was all pursuit, pressuring, reasoning, etc...
You're W already knows it all- she's fighting it...just let her fight w/ nothing, no resistance- see what happens.
Jas may have a point here OIN...
It's not what i would have thought of, but IGNORING her when she says that crap may help your case.
Just act like you didn't even hear it... she may just be trying to GET a RISE out of you.. and when you say ANYTHING, she is satisfied and has won the exchange in her mind...
She may get frustrated with you, but that's good.
This is a very sick game she's playing, the best move may very well be to ignore it.... Jas you may have it...
It's worth a try I think...
I think words may have run their course in this situation. Its time to act.
Do you own your house OIN? or do you rent?
If you own it you may consider just getting a few brochures from realtors and leave them lying around. Or even pick up a few travel brochures.
If she asks about them you can say that you are considering selling the house after she moves out? Or that you were considering taking a trip once she moves out.
It would be counterintuitive to your current techniques and would show GALing. I don't know, just a thought.
Going out of town, going on trips seems to be a good idea for scarce. Come home late. I guess we can build a very fun life, and invite them into it. Making them a 1st class "guest" initially.
It takes a while to build that new life.
It's not what i would have thought of, but IGNORING her when she says that crap may help your case.
Just act like you didn't even hear it... she may just be trying to GET a RISE out of you.. and when you say ANYTHING, she is satisfied and has won the exchange in her mind...
I tried this already, when I first posted on this forum this is what you suggested. To walk out the room and just pretend I she did not say anything.
At times it seemed to work and then others is caused her to be even more distant and nasty toward me.
Let me be honest and a little more open. I use to tell my W the following
- "Your a terrible W"
- "I hate being married to you"
And now here I am enduring everything I said to her. I use to say this stuff, not because I meant it, but because I knew it would get to her. I enticed a response from her, I wanted her to cling. It was like this sick game I played myself. I was F'd up and never wanted this to happen (careful what you ask for) but if this never happened I would not had made the necessary changes I needed, to become a better person and be able to offer more as a husband. SO ignoring her, to me, would be like me being my old self.
Do you own your house OIN? or do you rent?
If you own it you may consider just getting a few brochures from realtors and leave them lying around. Or even pick up a few travel brochures.
Yes, WE own this home. WE purchased the home just this past November. It is a unique situation. We purchased a huge side-by-side duplex. After much discussion and agreement we decided to rent the other half out to my parents (they wanted to downsize and wanted to rent rather than own again). My W knows I wont sell because of this situation.
Going out of town, going on trips seems to be a good idea for scarce. Come home late. I guess we can build a very fun life, and invite them into it. Making them a 1st class "guest" initially.
Just not possible. Financially not possible. We still do things together too. I honestly feel if I did such a thing this would open the door for her and she would walk right out.
I work a demanding shift, I work nights, I don't go out. I have a new home, the weather is getting better and there is a lot to be done. If I have any spare time I put the focus on the home.
=========================================
The remainder of the night, we sat watched some TV and some food. We then went up to bed and continued to watch TV there.
W then brought up that we need to spay the dog. We briefly talked about breeding. W spoke future tense or almost in the sense the dog would be there with the both of us. W said something like "We should had got her brother and had 2 days. I don't know if we could handle two dogs though" Then W and I looked at pictures of puppies and breeder websites for a good hour or so.
Wife then transferred the pics we took yesterday while at the water front with the dog to her laptop. She then begin to browse old pictures of our past pets and occasions. I looked on as she did this. She opened some pictures form our honeymoon and a few were of us. She skipped over the wedding photos though.
W then went to bed...
I reread my post form last night and think to myself that some people on this board never acted in the manner I did and still have WAS. I know some of you are saying "You get what you deserve."
===========================================
AS for today:
W and I woke up around the same time. At some point a short while later W and I, somehow, end up playing PC version of "Family Feud." We must had played for at least 2 hours. We laughed and kid around during this time but also at times W was distant/withdrawn. Every time we finished W would say "One more" and we'd play another.
After, we were going to watch a DVD but could not find it. AS I was looking for it, I walked into kitchen to tell W I could not find it and she had started to clean the kitchen. I joined her. We cleaned the kitchen and living room spotless.
After W then baked muffins. We then attempted to deep fry veggies...FAIL. W then made herself something to eat and started to watch TV and that is where we are at now.
W is still withdrawn a lot. The best way I can describe it is, if I say something to her or ask a question she will respond with "fine" , "OK" , "hmmm" , "ummhmmm" , "huh" , "uh huh" with no emotion at all, very monotone and brief.
W used the word "WE" some today....for example "We need to get this" , "We need to do that" ect..I am not trying to over analyze her emotions, words, or actions because I been her many times during our sitch.
Just a suggestion.
What you're doing so far isn't working, so when she starts saying things about how she wants to leave, etc. Just agree with her.
Say things like, "You know, you're right, no one is making you move out. I understand that you feel you'll never be happy in this marriage."
Then prove her wrong. Like DB says, you agree with them to lower their guard, then SHOW them what a catch you are.
I reread my post form last night and think to myself that some people on this board never acted in the manner I did and still have WAS. I know some of you are saying "You get what you deserve."
I think you're really hard on yourself. We are all students in this life. When we know better, we do better. I'm sure if you knew everything about self-esteem, self-respect, control, real love before you would have treated your wife differently. You have and continue to improve who you are. Its time you stop holding yourself hostage with this crap.
===========================================
W is still withdrawn a lot. The best way I can describe it is, if I say something to her or ask a question she will respond with "fine" , "OK" , "hmmm" , "ummhmmm" , "huh" , "uh huh" with no emotion at all, very monotone and brief.
I wonder if she responds this way because in her mind, she is betraying OM. Sounds strange, I know. But we talk alot about how WAS's are guided by their emotions. Emotionally, she's with him so to have positive interaction with you, is a betrayal. Anyone else see this or it just me?
I don't agree about supporting her moving out... don't support bad reasoning.. just validating her lousy attitude...
Oh I'm not referring to her action of moving out. I meant validating her "feeling" the way she does.
The last thing I want to do is give her more motive to move out. Telling her that she will never be happy in this marriage is certainly something I do not want to ever say. I know i am beating myself up when I say this, but you have to understand the things I have said in the past, and the above quoted is very similar to things I would say...
I have not been able to try a particular approach long enough to see if it is working. Each time I start a new dynamic comes about. Whether it be OM in the picture, then out the picture and her going through a minor withdrawal process, to OM being in picture again and she being more attached than she had in the past.
This approach I am taking now as allen suggested, validating her feeling while creating doubt when she tells me she is leaving has seemed to make an impact. Since I said "running away is not the answer" look at what we did after...the time spent.
I think things might get worse though. She just now found out the messages she had saved that I deleted are gone. I seen that she was on google trying to figure out how to restore those messages and how they got deleted in the first place.
I want to know what on earth OM has been saying to her to give her the delusion that they have a future together... I certainly think he's been saying more than "hello" and "goodbye" which is what he claims...
He's done a lot of damage here and he won't own up to any of it... He just plays dumb like some inconsiderate child... I want to know what the hell he's been saying to lead her on like this...
I want to know the same. It had to been said either in person or over the phone back when they were talking over the phone. We may never know but the more I think about what has happened and way W's mentality I just cannot see her ever emotionally coming back to me.
I said this in another thread and will say it here. My W has the mentality of a 16 yo when it comes to relationships. She is not your typical WAW. Sometimes I feel like she wants to be told ILY ect... I could be very wrong but my W seems to be easy to persuade, at the same time she is not stupid. Also as my W has put it her heart is bleeding.
I need things to say to her, that will question her logic and cause her to reconsider.
OM aside, this is all about your W. She has to be the one to end things and she's just not willing to do that.
There has to be a motive for her to leave things alone.
I said this in another thread and will say it here. My W has the mentality of a 16 yo when it comes to relationships
You hear that description alot with WASs.
She is not your typical WAW
You hear that a lot from LBSs.
I need things to say to her, that will question her logic and cause her to reconsider.
Arguing and reason don't usually work.
It didn't work for me, and I tried arguing. It was like arguing with a brick wall.
I am seperated now. Maybe your story is different?
Arguing with her? Absolutely not. I validate her feelings. I do not try to reason with her. What I am saying are lines I can reply with when she tells me she is leaving rather than just saying "I only want you to be happy" cause right now to her happy is leaving me and living the fantasy of being with OM.
I said this in another thread and will say it here. My W has the mentality of a 16 yo when it comes to relationships
You hear that description alot with WASs.
She is not your typical WAW
You hear that a lot from LBSs.
I need things to say to her, that will question her logic and cause her to reconsider.
Arguing and reason don't usually work.
It didn't work for me, and I tried arguing. It was like arguing with a brick wall.
I am seperated now. Maybe your story is different?
Many of us have dealt with WAS's that have gone through a similar transformation. The beautiful thing is the mindset is usually not sustainable, and its not a position they can hold for ever in the circles they roam. I understand the brick wall bit. What I am more interested is in how this occurs, whether through their social group support or interactions, etc that allow it to ohappen over time.
How this knowledge can be exploited in a better way to burst the affair or help our spouse to come to their senses.
ALL HELL JUST BROKE LOOSE!!
Story to follow.
I hope he's still alive...
Talked to OMW this morning. She informed me that OM was going to supervisor to request to not work anywhere near W anymore. From what I was told, he told the sup. what was going on and how he is trying to reconcile his marriage and she just won't stay away.
I got a txt form W this morning that she was leaving work early. W came home early and was very mopy. W was looking at me so I asked her "Something you want to say?" she said "not right now." W went to sleep.
I woke up and W woke up shortly after. W was dragging around the house and was in a daze. W started to tell me how stressed out she is at work and that is why she left early. People are talking about her. She does not understand why. Apparently OM has been ignoring her too and it is taking a toll on her.
W said she felt like crying. I tried to be supportive without implying what she was/is doing is right. W failed to see the point that if you don't talk to him then there is nothing for anyone else to talk about.
I told W how OM/OMW said they would report this to sup. if continued.
W female friend from work called and W walked away and went into the basement to talk to her. I was standing in my kitchen and I could hear W come up through the vents as she was talking.
I heard bit and pieces -
- W said she is upset that OM could just ignore her like she is nothing,
- W thought I was making up that OM was going to report this.
- W said she was not the only one contributing to this all, that OM would come up and what I heard her say "Kiss her hand and fingers and say 'what a beautiful girl she is'"
W came upstairs and demanded to know what else was said and I said "I want answers as well, lets sit down like adults and discuss this"
W refused to discuss anything with me and said "I have nothing to say" "there is nothing to tell you" Not knowing she was speaking loud enough to be heard.
So I asked "Tell me what your relationship was with him and what happened" She said it was nothing and "not what you think or making it out to be, typical you stringing things together that don't go together"
So I said what I heard. W then got dressed and walked out the door. Just before she walked out the door I had got OMW on the line and told her what I had heard. She agreed that we need to have a 4 way call again. W walked out.
W then eventually came back and demanded to see my phone logs to see who I had been talking to for the past 2 months. I said "That is fine as long as I get to see yours" I went on to say "It is transparency over her, I have nothing to hide"
W spoke about our marriage being over and I said "we are a married couple, and couples don't leave or walk away from the situation, they improve them."
Then my W went on to relive to her the day the marriage ended. An incident that occurred that she took and blown out of proportion.
Then W started to get nasty and bitter with me so I said "We are adults, we can talk civilly no need to disrespect me"
Then OM/OMW called. OM expressed how this ALL has to stop he is getting tired of it. ALL conversation needs to end ect...
Then OMW got on to the phone and started to tell W off and call her out on many things,.
They went back and forth. OMW said "You need to stay away form my husband and work on things with yours" W started to talk poorly about me so I said over the speaker phone "I am not going to sit back and let others disrespect me, not even my own W" then my W said "That is nothing more than a title right now"
The call ended W started to disrespect me again, I got up took phone logs and she got up and said "soon enough I will be gone and I can get on with my life" and I said "you walk out the door you will be abandoning this home and your family, no one or nothing else is leaving" W gave me dirty look and walked out the door.
So nothing but hell today after two fairly descent days. W pretty much HATES me and at this point I cannot see her ever considering giving us another chance.
What to do now?
- Tell her to leave? telling her she is right that our marriage won't work
- Avoid her? go dark...
I am kind of lost right now. This has got way out of hand
I know I am leaving a lot out but I cannot focus at the moment
She'll come back. Reality is hitting hard, of course she hates you since you messed up utopia. Don't talk to her for a few days, even up to a week. Stay busy, don't worry about what she's thinking or going to do.
The OM door is closed shut.
Take a deep breath friend. You did well.
She is lashing out because she got caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Do your best to let it all slide off your back. It's hard as hell. Believe me, I know.
When my W was caught, she did the exact same things. She twisted our M around so that it sounded like it was MY fault that made her cheat. Right now she's addicted. You're a police officer. Think of an addict. When they don't get their fix they start lashing out and look at others to blame except for themselves.
How do you treat an addict? You stop enabling. You don't argue back. There's no point to do so. The harder you argue, the more they'll push back. Become the wall. She can batter you all she wants, but you continue to stay strong.
I repeat. It will be HARD. But start thinking of her as an addict. Detach the emotions.
I agree that you should minimize contact now...she will come back and when she does, be DIM- positive and detached.
My advice may be disagreed w/ but I would take some steps back and not even mention H, W, or M at this point.
Your W had a huge issue w/ OM ignoring her (though he would also double talk, etc)...I would instill some loss w/in her. Keep busy, go out w/ the boys, but also remain accountable and responsible.
They say the withdrawal takes some months, from last contact- any minute contact can set the clock back to zero...
Do not feed into any negativity and be DIM.
When I was DARK for about a month, my WAW was broken up w/ by OM2 and actually contemplated the TRUTH about our M...no more rewriting things-
this was short lived b/c I think I welcomed her back too quickly, BUT being somewhat absent will allow the true perspective to return.
Now- do not neglect, if you say something you do it (what you're gonna do, what time you'll be home, etc)...still speak w/ your actions, but just take care of you.
OK, OIN. I will say this again.
You are taking to heart what this woman is saying. STOP IT.
You need to realize she's addicted right now... You just DETACH and get the job done. Do NOT argue, negotiate, or SYMPATHIZE with an addict. You just stay back and wait. Once the addict realizes
Tantrums
Insults
Yelling
Threats
Crying
Whining
Hissing
Etc all result in NO REACTION, they will walk away.
That's how you AVOID a fight.. but you keep walking right into them.
Your wife comes home visibly upset and you ask "you have something to say?"
Man, LEAVE it ALONE.. you are a conflict MAGNET.. DROP it.
This is all the crap that is due to happen when you expose, but YOU are taking it PERSONALLY and that is NOT HELPING your CASE.
Treat your addict wife like you would any drug addict on the street. If they insulted you or yelled you wouldn't yell back or argue, you would just stand there calm and wait for the tantrum to end.
Your wife is pissed off at OM, NOT YOU.. but YOU are volunteering to be a punching bag when you try to communicate when she's like that.
That phone call.. I would have just bowed out.. The OM and OMW both want your W to stay clear... I would have just STAYED OUT OF IT... You could have just said, this is none of my business and let those two tell your wife to leave OM alone.
Good call on listening into the phone call in teh basement though... You have learned that OM WAS pursuing her physically... It wasn't just your wife fantasizing.
I have been there, as have many of us... Take some advice from the other side.. STOP saying your marriage is over and that your wife is never giong to come back.. They DO COME BACK... So STOP IT and find some strength man!
Dude, what happened to day, you should be EXCITED, not miserable... OM and OMW are doing YOUR DIRTY WORK FOR YOU.
THEY are taking the bullets and driving your wife into reality... All you have to do is sit back and munch on popcorn...
This is THE BEST... When Exposure is done as well as you have done it, and kept those communication lines open, it makes a HUGE difference..
My advice is for you to just STAY BACK and let your wife deal with growing up... She's acting like a five year old and throwing tantrums... do you know how parents handle a tantrum?
They IGNORE IT.
You just stand back and let them scream.. do NOTHING. Just project calm adultlike energy and hold that for dear life.
Your wife is provoking you... Ignore it.
You are doing well, I am not trying to beat you up here, but You still seem to have not gotten the idea that she's ADDICTED. You keep thinking this is your WIFE talking rather than an ADDICTION talking.
Your wife is in there, but right now the addiction is doing her thinking and acting for her... Your wife is just inside watching and can't do much about it until the addiction is gone.
Your wife is growing up... Let IT HAPPEN.
OK so...
when my W left, I made the terrible mistake of calling her female friend from work. I felt like I needed to clear the air. I told her that I was only trying to protect our marriage. She said she just started to talk to my W in the past few days in a serious manner about the entire sitch. She said she has told my W countless times that she should work on our marriage and this whole thing with OM had gone to far and to just get over OM. She said she just feels bad for my W because everyone at work is talking about her behind her back. She suggested to talk to OM friend and he could shine some light on what actually did happen.
SO I called him and the convo was brief, he pretty much told me everything I already knew.
I had left the house and took the dog to the park. W had returned home shortly after and called me wondering where the dog was and I told her with me and where, she said she would be right there. W showed up and started to play around with the dog.
W told me how she had a convo with her father for nearly an hour and that she told him how she became friends with a guy at work and now he has betrayed her and everyone is talking about her behind her back. Her father gave her a pep talk of sorts...W did not say if she spoke to father about our sitch or her moving out but I am sure they did.
We went home. When we got back W wanted to go over the phone logs. This is when she discovered that I had spoke to woman from work, so I told her I did call and she told me did not feel comfortable talking to me and suggested I speak to OM friend.
W is upset because she thinks something more is going on...I really got myself into a jam here.
The female friend said the convo was between us but I admitted the convo to my W and the friend does not know I did.
Did you look at her phone logs like you asked?
You definitely shouldn't have shown her the logs. Talking to her just tossed more fuel for her to go off on and blame you for how she can't "trust" you.
She went to her dad for validation. Notice how she made herself out to be the victim. She went to him because there was no one else she could go to. My W was the same way.
Stop showing her your phone logs if she won't show you hers. When she insists on talking to you, tell her "there's nothing to talk about" and walk away.
Ever notice that the more you talk to her, the more things get messed up and she is the one wearing the pants?
Have you ever considered telling the truth? If you are not embarrassed to do something, you should not be embarrassed to say you did it. So you talked to her friend. Big deal! whoop-de-do. You were concerned about your wife and you talked to her friend. You're a cop. What crime is that?
Well, hopefully she now knows that OM was just playing her. Of course, if he really brings this up to supervisors at work, it is a big deal. will he charge her with sexual harassment? Do you know? Does she know? She could be out of a job soon.
she has made a mess of her life. What is she going to do about it? Time for you to stop trying to clean up her mess.
Dude, what happened to day, you should be EXCITED, not miserable... OM and OMW are doing YOUR DIRTY WORK FOR YOU.
THEY are taking the bullets and driving your wife into reality... All you have to do is sit back and munch on popcorn...
LOL!!! That was too funny!
OIN, Allen has given me a ton of great advice. I am not one to give advice other than to pay close attention to what Allen says - he has helped me out a ton. You may also want to watch my thread. Our situations are very similar. But the OM in my sitch has been much more difficult to eradicate. I only wish I could sit back and eat popcorn...ha! I have had to resort too other tactics to get the OM to back off.
Time for you to stop trying to clean up her mess.
finally, Lotus, we agree.
Puppy
OIN, I just posted telling you to step back and leave it alone and you call her friend at work?
Good lord...
LEAVE it ALONE... You cannot fix this... she needs to grow the hell up on her own.
ALLENI say "My W will never comeback" because she is so caught up in the past. If you recall over a month ago I sent you an email (contents confidential)? If you still have the original email, reread it, those are the things she continues to bring up therefore I find this sitch impossible to reconcile.
OIN, I just posted telling you to step back and leave it alone and you call her friend at work?
The phone call to the friend was after she had left but a couple hours before you made your post. It was not while the friend was at work. what I said is she is a "friend" from work. She claims that she is talking to my W because she feels bad for her because everyone else at work talks about my W.
This "friend" is the same woman who I had mentioned long ago in a post about the one who cheats on her husband and this was the influence my W had. Turns out, her and her husband have an open marriage and oddly enough she believes in marriage and has told my W many times that she shoulld try and work it out.
LOTUSI told my W the truth. I thought in my previous post I mentioned that.
============================================
As I mentioned last evening W called me to find out where I took the dog, and then met us up at the park where we were.
W talked about her long conversation with FIL. She said it was about her sitch at work. W did not say if any conversation about our sitch was brought up but I assume it was. I txt FIL last evening to get an update on his GF's condition. FIL did not reply.
Last night after the whole phone log thing and me telling W truth about calling her friend. I was laying in bed on computer and W asked if I wanted to play a game. W played for about an hour and then called it a night.
This morning W called off work.
OIN Every SPOUSE who is wayward, particularly if they are CHEATING while wayward will do the followoing :
a. drudge up five, ten, even twenty years of history
b. rewrite that history into something inaccurate
c. blame you for the failure of the marriage
d. insist that the marriage should never have happened
e. refuse to talk to a counselor/therapist
f. nay say that rebuilding the marriage isn't possible
g. insist that its "too late"
h. drop old friends and make new wreckless ones
i. isolate themselves from anyone who may actually help
j. escape into fantasy (novels, poetry, internet gaming, bar-hopping, etc)
Your wife's druging up the past isn't important. YOu have to IGNORE it and NOT let that drive you away. You keep taking what she says to heart. It's right in DR, that you need to steel yourself from the crap your spouse throws at you when you are having problems... I gave you a whole list above that's common... DR includes more as well
You need to stop taking her communication seriously... This is right out of the book... It's DB 101. IGNORE her complaints.
There IS some use to them, but reacting emotionally by allowing them to leave you feeling hopeless and defeated is exactly what you DON'T want resulting.
a. your wife feels hopeless and defeated
b. your wife then spews garbage at you to SHARE how hopeless and defeated she feels
c. you react by wallowing in it
d. you get on the phone or whatever in order to help things improve
e. things just get worse and you end up blamed for it all
... Not good
I dunno, I may be way off here, but it looks like every time your wife has some drama going on with OM and the mess SHE MADE you want to dive in to rescue her and it ends up with
a. A bigger mess
b. You being painted out as the bad guy
I don't see how this dynamic you have with her is at all constructive...
My advice OIN is that the next time your wife has a downturn from the drama SHE CREATED in HER WORKPLACE that YOU
STAY OUT of it
Let her cry, squirm, fester, fume, etc.
I know you want to look like a hero and save the day, but your wife has voted you family punching bag right now... if you aren't IN IT, she is less likley to associate you WITH the drama...
It sounds like OM and OMW are doing a fine job on their own of putting this affair to bed once and for all.
NOW is the time you just let HER wrestle with the mess she made and STAY OUT of it.. EVEN if you think you can help... just stay out...
Once the reality of an affair starts to come down... and I HAVE been there as have others... You need to STEP BACK and get OUT of the WAY while reality comes crashing down... and it IS coming down now.
OIN, your wife may come hope in a week or so and find out she's been suspended or even FIRED. YOU need to get OUT of this mess or she will BLAME YOU for her getting suspended or fired.
Once you can see the affair is falling apart and there are people doing the necessary exposure and wake up calls YOU get OUT of there so YOU are NOT BLAMED
I've been there.. Once reality starts setting in, you need to stand clear or be part of your wife's new fantasy hit list of people she wants to hurt beyond measure.
I like to use the phrase "This is your mess -- YOU clean it up."
Puppy
COULD pup, but in THIS case I would just leave it alone and let her figure that out.
OIN's wife seems to want to pin problems on OIN instead of owning them herself.
I think if he isnt' THERE in the ROOM to BLAME, she HAS to eventually own it and fix it herself.
Its common to blame someone nearby when a problem happens... It keeps you from beating yourself up.
OIN, just leave her alone with her problems.. that emotional tension she has to experience for the mess is GROWTH... she WILL grow from it if you leave her alone.
If you try to fix it you are just bailing her out and she learns nothing.. It's basic parenting...
And yes, in my opinion we don't just parent our children, we parent our spouses too.
GOOD parenting means leaving them to clean their messes up.. BAD parenting is cleaning it up for them.
How today went.
W woke up this morning. We did our separate thing. I hung out in the backyard with the dog. W came outside and started to fool around with the dog. Then W and I shot the basket ball around. W brought up a negative comment OMW said over the phone yesterday and I said nothing in return.
After a little bit W went into the house. I walked in shortly after and said "It is a beautiful day I think I will take the dog and do something."
A little while later W said to be "DO you want to take the dog somewhere or would you rather go to the gun range and after we can do a little shopping" I said "that is up to you" W decided she wanted to go to the gun range and do some shooting then go shopping after.
We went shooting and had a pretty good time. After we stopped and had some lunch. W seemed withdrawn and a little cold at times. After we ate we stopped at a couple stores. W wanted to buy patio furniture for the back deck and we ended up doing so.
There were times where W spoke future tense...
On the way home W questioned me about a phone call I was not honest about....
We get home and start to assemble the patio furniture and I came out and told her the truth and she said she knew I was lying... This female "friend" of hers from work turns out to be less of help then I thought.
She was texting W and W started to question me on things, I asked her if I could see her text messages, W said "I am reading it to you word for word" I then replied "I hand my phone over to you and let you read all my messages and go through my logs and you cant do the same?"
Then W got upset and handed the phone over to me.
W brought up the situation and how she feels the whole thing was blown out of proportion. Then W spoke about how her fathers pep talk is to "F them all" and I am sure it included me. W then says "Life goes on"
I said (and probably should not had) "I never thought I would ever be in such a situation. I tired of it all, you created this mess and I want not part of it." she said "The whole thing is a mess, people just think things that are not true and make a big deal about it."
I let it go and said nothing more.
We finished assembling the patio set. W asked what time I had to be at work tonight and then said "I wanted to play the new game we game we got" then said jokingly "I'll let you know how it is"
W then started to play the game. I got ready for work, said "bye" and left.
After I left for work, W started to do google searched for "I don't know how to love him lyrics" and "he broke my heart"
Then W started to read content on the whole "broken heart" thing and started to take online surveys....here are some sites she went to
http://www.healmybrokenheart.com/http://www.yourtango.com/200941234/he-broke-my-heart-so-why-he-contacting-mehttp://www.dearcupid.org/question/he-broke-my-heart--now-im-scared.htmlhttp://www.healmybrokenheart.com/4122results=============
Maybe I was too friendly with W today. I just went with the flow and validated. looking back maybe I was too soft, I am not sure. but the above links I am sure are intended for OM
Where do I go from here after the OK day we had?
How today went.
W woke up this morning. We did our separate thing. I hung out in the backyard with the dog. W came outside and started to fool around with the dog. Then W and I shot the basket ball around. W brought up a negative comment OMW said over the phone yesterday and I said nothing in return.
After a little bit W went into the house. I walked in shortly after and said "It is a beautiful day I think I will take the dog and do something."
A little while later W said to be "DO you want to take the dog somewhere or would you rather go to the gun range and after we can do a little shopping" I said "that is up to you" W decided she wanted to go to the gun range and do some shooting then go shopping after.
We went shooting and had a pretty good time. After we stopped and had some lunch. W seemed withdrawn and a little cold at times. After we ate we stopped at a couple stores. W wanted to buy patio furniture for the back deck and we ended up doing so.
There were times where W spoke future tense...
On the way home W questioned me about a phone call I was not honest about....
We get home and start to assemble the patio furniture and I came out and told her the truth and she said she knew I was lying... This female "friend" of hers from work turns out to be less of help then I thought.
She was texting W and W started to question me on things, I asked her if I could see her text messages, W said "I am reading it to you word for word" I then replied "I hand my phone over to you and let you read all my messages and go through my logs and you cant do the same?"
Then W got upset and handed the phone over to me.
W brought up the situation and how she feels the whole thing was blown out of proportion. Then W spoke about how her fathers pep talk is to "F them all" and I am sure it included me. W then says "Life goes on"
I said (and probably should not had) "I never thought I would ever be in such a situation. I tired of it all, you created this mess and I want not part of it." she said "The whole thing is a mess, people just think things that are not true and make a big deal about it."
I let it go and said nothing more.
We finished assembling the patio set. W asked what time I had to be at work tonight and then said "I wanted to play the new game we game we got" then said jokingly "I'll let you know how it is"
W then started to play the game. I got ready for work, said "bye" and left.
After I left for work, W started to do google searched for "I don't know how to love him lyrics" and "he broke my heart"
Then W started to read content on the whole "broken heart" thing and started to take online surveys....here are some sites she went to
http://www.healmybrokenheart.com/http://www.yourtango.com/200941234/he-broke-my-heart-so-why-he-contacting-mehttp://www.dearcupid.org/question/he-broke-my-heart--now-im-scared.htmlhttp://www.healmybrokenheart.com/4122results=============
Maybe I was too friendly with W today. I just went with the flow and validated. looking back maybe I was too soft, I am not sure. but the above links I am sure are intended for OM
Where do I go from here after the OK day we had?
She's going to grieve over the OM. I think today went ok, but the role you sat in today, is not one I think you want to stay in. I think you may have to evaluate this. It might not be good for her to see you in this light for long, because it may cancel your chance to be in your proper role. She will get over it over time, I say do some things you like and lay back off your wife. You can let her know where your going occasionally and she can invite herself along. Outside of that let her get over her stuff.
So funny, she just felt like shooting a gun at a target! Ha, ha. And then buying patio furniture? For a house she doesn't plan to live in? Interesting. Fine she has a broken heart. She earned it.
buying patio furniture? For a house she doesn't plan to live in?
Of course, that makes perfect sense. You ever get tired of hearing the crazy things people do when they start down the path of being dishonest?
u
buying patio furniture? For a house she doesn't plan to live in?
Of course, that makes perfect sense. You ever get tired of hearing the crazy things people do when they start down the path of being dishonest?
"Agents" of the world will "use" these people too, as well as "honest" folx will find out about how far they will go. Its a dangerous path, that most people do get awoken in one way or another.
I am doing my best to detach but I am having difficulty wrapping my head around all this. My W fell in love with another male and is now heart broken over him. She does not admit these feelings.
I want to confront her about all my findings but feel like it would only make things worse.
I don't want to save her from her own mess, I actually want her to suffer in a sense. She has not been honest and continues not to be.
My W became attached to another male because I failed to treat her like a husband should. OM hopefully leaves my W alone. During this time I detach from my W and let her figure out the mess she created, my W is not getting the emotional support she feels she needs and ends up attching to yet anpther male?
W just txt me, she is calling off work again. Said she needs to call the doctor. I called her just to make sure it was not serious but turns out to be a "headache."
She just can't go to work is the problem.
Perhaps it's time to tell her how disappointed you are in her, that she would throw away your love and your marriage the way she did to chase a married man! And you don't know how you could recover from the way she has been lying to you and deliberately saying hurtful things to you. Perhaps it is for the best for her to move out. You are just not sure about anything having to do with her right now.
Yes, you need to let her stew in this mess of hers. Because unless she sees that she has caused all her problems, she will repeat the behavior over and over. You did not marry her until someone better comes along. And that is the way she is treating you. She's not even waiting for someone better to come along, she is actively hunting for a new husband!
I know you think she is wonderful. And that is good, because you love her. i am not saying this to be critical of your wife. I'm saying it because it is true. Men are not anxious to find a wife who is sick all the time and needs a nursemaid. She may find out quickly that you are the best husband she can get at the shopping mall of husbands. So don't sell yourself too cheaply. Make her work to get back what she has been so happy to throw away.
OIN,
Perhaps it's time to tell her how disappointed you are in her, that she would throw away your love and your marriage the way she did to chase a married man! And you don't know how you could recover from the way she has been lying to you and deliberately saying hurtful things to you. Perhaps it is for the best for her to move out. You are just not sure about anything having to do with her right now.
I agree with Lotus.
I think the time is now.
I know you are afraid to let her go for fear of her running to someone else, but, she truly needs to see what life would be like without you taking 'care' of her....you really do have a father/daughter relationship....did you notice she went to her father when she didn't get what she wanted from you?
Oin, you have shown her how hard you have worked at changing yourself and trying to save M.....what has she done?
(((HUGS)))
Totally agree!
I've been saying this for two months.
Perhaps it's time to tell her how disappointed you are in her, that she would throw away your love and your marriage the way she did to chase a married man! And you don't know how you could recover from the way she has been lying to you and deliberately saying hurtful things to you. Perhaps it is for the best for her to move out. You are just not sure about anything having to do with her right now.
He don't need to move to fast or push or explain or anything. Let her sort herself out while he takes care of himself. Lay back off of her, but be there if she really needs it IE: hospital, or if she get sick. Outside of that I say he's having fun, and if she wants to join fine.
Update:
Had a long night at work,usually my shift ends at 6am but did not get home till 9am. As I said W called off work. When I got home W was still in bed. I went to sleep immediately. A few times I heard my W trying to hush the dog because I was sleeping.
I woke up and did my own thing, ate breakfast, went out in the backyard...W eventually came out to the backyard and brought the Kan Jam with her, so we played for a little bit and then like little kids we went and jumped around on my nephew's new trampoline. W then said "do you want to go in a play a game or two before we go visit father's GF" I said sure so we fooled around with the game then left.
On the way W wanted to stop and get FIL GF some flowers and so we did. While in the store W would say "This would look nice in the backyard" , "We should get these/this" but I just said "yeah, I think so too" or something along those lines and then continued on.
We get up tot eh hospital and FIL shows up shortly after we did. FIL greeted me briefly and would not even look me in my eyes. We visited for a little bit and chit chatted with FIL then left. After we left I said to W "I think your father may have lost some respect for me, because he would not even look me in my eyes or address me" and usually he does. W said he is just under a lot of stress and that is why. Just for the record when things with FIL GF were a lot worse, the most stressful of times FIL was good to me.
During our chit chat with FIL, my W and FIL spoke about the house and the progress that he is making. W did not bring up that she is moving there, even when we briefly spoke about the work FIL has done to the house. W even told FIL how we just bought a new patio set....
On the way back home I wanted to stop by a store and said to W "I want to stop at <store name> I can take you home first and then get in my car and go or do you want to join me?" W said she would go along. We went to a few different stores and W would say "We should look at this/that" or express interest in things for the house. W did get a few items for the house.
We stopped and got ice cream on the way home. When we got home, I went out back....W soon joined me and we fooled around with the dog for a little bit before W asking if I wanted to once again play the game (when I say game, I am talking about a couple games W just bought for her Wii console, mainly family feud lol).
After playing around for a little bit, W went to shower...
Day was OK. W did not seem as bitter as she usually is. I participated in these "games" because after all I don't mind having fun. I am trying to detach the best I can, I just keep reminding myself "W fell in love with OM" and "W's heart is broken over OM" helps me not get attached.
W spoke future tense quite a few times today. I say and ask nothing, I just carry on.
She is being friendly and nice because she suddenly has lost her better option. So now you are not so bad. But this won't last, she will start looking for OM #2 to jump ship soon. You need to let her know that you know she has behaved badly to you and she cannot just turn around and assume everything is fine because she says it is. Things are not fine in the way that you have been treated. She has abused the marriage by using it as a safe haven from which to look for a new husband.
Now you are unhappy with how things are. (Yes, you exist in this marriage.) You are not interested in just being her safe haven. You want a real wife who loves you and wants to be with you. You are not sure if she can be that person. Ask her if she still planning to move out? If not, why not? if yes, then when? You have a right to know what is happening in your life, not to just passively accept whatever she does.
FIL is not looking you in the eye because he knows what she is planning to do. He is embarrassed by that knowledge. If it is move out, then she should do it, not spend all your money on home improvements. You can choose your own home improvements without her input. Why should you be the last to know what is happening in your life?
I have not told you to do this before because you had no leverage before. She didn't care what you thought or if you hurt, because you didn't matter. And you still won't matter, if you don't speak up for yourself. But if she is going to hide from the big bad world in the marriage, then you do matter. Because you have to allow her to do that. It is time to let her know that she might have lost her safe refuge too.
I will think of what to say exactly then post it and get feedback...Thank you.
The whole bit about OfficerInNeed's role has basically been changed to that of one of a "handler". The point being that now that she has started this habit, that effectively he will be taking care of her until she finds her another relationship that she wants to be in.
The premise of this is pretty depressing, because thats where alot of us are at. And DB'ing "Bo Peep" style really is allowing the wayward to strengthen themself in being a cheater. That unless there are consequences or repurcussions why should they change their ways?
A few things...
My W does not know that I know so much. I did this with the assistance of a keylogger. If I bring up anything about the OM she will down play the situation unless I have facts to back it up and only way I can do that is expose what I had done, should I?
I has been a few days since the incident, is it too premature to have this conversation? Should i give it a week or so? If she is still hurt over OM, there is a great chance she will not even listen to me.
Which brings me to my next question...knowing that I probably won't people to get her attention long enough for her to hear what I have to say (if I bring up the situation or say something that upsets her, she will walk away and more than likely leave the house before I can finish) could/should I put it in writing?
OIN, I and a few others here have been where you are.
In some cases when affairs end, they end ugly like this... The OP says or does something very destructive on the way out, betrays the WS in some way... It's common because of the nature of infidelity... Since you've been following their involvement a while now you may notice its quite "high-schoolish" in nature.. This is how affairs are structured.
Affairs aren't built on dating, meeting parents, making long term commitments... They are more like high school relationships... Sneaking around AVOIDING parents, lying, etc... Its a VERY jeuivenile relationship compared to the kind that leads into marriage.
AT THIS POINT, if OM has really left her feeling bruised, damaged, and betrayed... I think YOUR best shot is to NOT SAY ANYTHING about it and to just offer a more viable alternative implicitly.
If she IS removing OM from her system now... THIS is where good memories of you can finally start filling in that void.
This VOID is how infidelity often starts...
Marriages run into a problematic period
The couple grows distant
A VOID is created in the wayward spouse
An interloper meets up with the wayward and offers to fill the void
Infidelity grows over the following months
YOU can't make headway with her while OM is in her head... there is NO VOID there... ONCE the VOID is there, you can actually start to offer something inviting to her that she now has SPACE for...
This is why I reccomend attacking an affair head on... using Bo-peep methods during an affair have a serious problem because there's no NEED for a third party... the VOID is filled with the other person.
If OM IS going out of her system finally, YOU may now have a chance to fill that again, IF YOU OFFER SOMETHING INVITING
Once OM left from my situation my wife was a LOT more inviting to a kind gesture and such.. which she got more accustomed to over time... She much like your wife was angry and miserable all the time and wouldn't let me in... That changed once she fully accepted that OM was OUT of the picture.
I think your wife has been daydreaming about this guy still since he never really FIRMLY ENDED the AFFAIR.. he was leading your wife ON by continuing talking with her... so she never really ended the affair in her head...
THAT has to END in her HEAD... it never did
That's my analysis this far...
Do you think I should NOT have this talk with her? Lotus does have a point about OM2 coming along.
I have no idea where my W stands, last she told me 3 days ago she is gone. Then we had a pretty good past couple days considering. Today we plan to have more fun at least before she went to bed we made a few plans for today. She did have work today and OM is working... so there is no telling what kind of mood she will be in when she does get home.
I am just unsure how to approach it from here. Have the talk or carry on and be support and monitor any interactions with OM.
If you have a talk, I do not recommend revealing your knowledge. You can say you don't know what her relationship with OM was, but you think she was looking for a new husband, and the thought of that upsets you. You think it is wrong to stay married to one person while looking for another husband. You don't know if she is still planning to move out, or if what happened at work changes that. But you are not willing to support her while she looks for another husband. So if that's what's going on, then you do think it's best that she move out. You married her for better or worse, not til something better comes along.
And then just see what she says. You haven't made any ultimatums there. You are just saying "If that's the case, then the marriage is not going in a direction I want to go in." And you don't claim to know anything, you only know what she has told you, or what what was said on the phone calls with OM and OMW. It lets her know that you do have decisions to make in all of this too. It is not all up to her.
should I wait a week or so before I have this talk? maybe to gain more leverage...
You can choose your time. We can't judge that from a distance. You have the best feel for how things are going. When you say the stuff above, you can also bring up the part about how she needs to be nicer to you if she is staying married. Speak to you AT LEAST as well as she would speak to a stranger -- hello, goodbye, thank you, etc. You are a person, not her servant! You need to consider if you want to be in a relationship with someone who treats you poorly.
You need to consider if you want to be in a relationship with someone who treats you poorly.
Lotus,
So how come when I said his wife treated him this way (I think I said "boorishly," you jumped my case?
Maybe it was someone else; if so, I apologize. But I distinctly remember recommending to OIN that he stop putting up with his wife's disrespectful and rude behavior, and nearly everyone disagreeing with me.
Puppy
Allen just so I understand, are you suggesting to not say anything for now and just try to create positive experiences with my W?
Also W returned home from work, she talked to the dog all upbeat as I just did my own thing, W would then tell me what the dog just did.
W then asked "you going somewhere?" I said "not right away" W then asked where and I said "I thought you and I had planned to go to <place> if not then I will go run a few errands" and W said "I want to go to <place> but what errands did you have to run?" I told W what errand I planned on running sometime today, W then walked out the room.
I did ask W if her head was still hurting...(according to her it has been hurting for 3 days now)? she said "umm hmm"
I did not ask anything about work nor do I plan on to.
You need to consider if you want to be in a relationship with someone who treats you poorly.
Lotus,
So how come when I said his wife treated him this way (I think I said "boorishly," you jumped my case?
Maybe it was someone else; if so, I apologize. But I distinctly remember recommending to OIN that he stop putting up with his wife's disrespectful and rude behavior, and nearly everyone disagreeing with me.
Puppy
The quickest way to "fix" this may be spending some time with attractive female friends. I've never known someone to talk the other out of this type of behavior. They do it because they can get away with it, and they do it because they want to.
Sorry DLS, but if you are suggesting that OIN spend time with attractive women in some desperate ploy to make his wife jealous I think that's not the best course of action... This would very likley trigger his wife to give up on the marriage entirely and frolic about herself...
OIN I think DBing is a LOT simpler to do when there isn't a third party attacking your marriage.
Once we can be SURE beyond a shadow of a doubt that the OM is GONE... from her workplace AND her imagination your wife will be a LOT more welcoming of reconcilliation if YOU are an inviting prospect
Her disrespect and dismissive attitude I think is largely thanks to the interference of OM... He's done a LOT of damage here... But he continues to do that until your WIFE is convinced he's gone and she gives up on him.
Pup,
I don't remember jumping your case. I do remember saying that other than the lack of pleasantires, they seemed to get along alright. So I think it was a matter of degree. And then I recommended that OIN talk to his wife about speaking to him at least as well as a stranger. And I think you agreed with that. But, so be it. I think he has more leverage now to set her straight within the marriage because she has become aware that OM is not an option. And, while she has not said she is planning to stay with OIN, it appears that she is comfortable where she is. So I think it is time to let her know that if she does want to stay, she needs to shape up. But, she may not be staying. Either way, I see no reason not to ask her her intentions and let her know that she is not the prize package she seems to think she is.
Either way, I see no reason not to ask her her intentions and let her know that she is not the prize package she seems to think she is.
Ya that will certainly make her feel welcome to stay.
Stay? Is that all he wants? He doesn't want a faithful wife? He doesn't want a life partner? Then I guess I misunderstand. If what he wants is the status quo, he should make no changes.
Yup, for NOW, motivate her to commit to staying in the same HOME... baby steps here...
So ya, make no changes is a better strategy than telling her she's "no prize"...
Sorry DLS, but if you are suggesting that OIN spend time with attractive women in some desperate ploy to make his wife jealous I think that's not the best course of action... This would very likley trigger his wife to give up on the marriage entirely and frolic about herself...
OIN I think DBing is a LOT simpler to do when there isn't a third party attacking your marriage.
Once we can be SURE beyond a shadow of a doubt that the OM is GONE... from her workplace AND her imagination your wife will be a LOT more welcoming of reconcilliation if YOU are an inviting prospect
Her disrespect and dismissive attitude I think is largely thanks to the interference of OM... He's done a LOT of damage here... But he continues to do that until your WIFE is convinced he's gone and she gives up on him.
Allen A,
I am real respectful of your point of view. What I'm talking about is being effective and what yields results. The manner in which I am describing this is not a desperate ploy at all. Its a well managed situation, where OIN gets the type of attention that he should be getting from his wife. Over time, if that is going to be his wife she will fill that hole. Right now, in the interactions he is going through it is stripping him of his masculinity over time.
He's giving her a high quality interaction and alot of time, but he's not getting much in return. She's getting used to this.
Thats what I don't like. I wasn't prescribing cheating, simply spending time with people who want to spend time with him.
Right now its not his wife, and if he lays back for several weeks ot a month or so maybe she will return.
I don't believe being up as close as he is to her will work. Plus she is getting used to dishing what she is, and still getting like I said a highly focused OIN and alot of his time. She will figure if she gets all that out of him without putting anything out, why should she change anything?
I am real respectful of your point of view. What I'm talking about is being effective and what yields results. The manner in which I am describing this is not a desperate ploy at all. Its a well managed situation, where OIN gets the type of attention that he should be getting from his wife. Over time, if that is going to be his wife she will fill that hole. Right now, in the interactions he is going through it is stripping him of his masculinity over time.
He's giving her a high quality interaction and alot of time, but he's not getting much in return. She's getting used to this.
Thats what I don't like. I wasn't prescribing cheating, simply spending time with people who want to spend time with him.
^ ^ ^
There are LOT of spouses who were and are having trouble with their marriages who are NOT getting their needs met by their spouse... many of them do exactly what you suggest, spend time with OS until partner starts to cooperate... guess what? This is how many affairs start!!!
This is terrible advice, I am sorry, but this advice is NOT going to improve the situation at home... And spending time with the OS to make ONESELF feel better isn't going to improve a marriage at home, its going to make it WORSE
Right now its not his wife, and if he lays back for several weeks ot a month or so maybe she will return.
I don't believe being up as close as he is to her will work. Plus she is getting used to dishing what she is, and still getting like I said a highly focused OIN and alot of his time. She will figure if she gets all that out of him without putting anything out, why should she change anything?
I don't think so either, I think OIN should lay low, be inviting when he's there, but NOT be in her face all day long... As long as the need for companionship is NOT being offered by or filled by OM, then I say let his wife stew... And be out and about...
But I do NOT reccomend socializing with the opposite sex right now
1. It's way too tempting for OIN
2. It in my opinion will trigger his wife to head out bar-hopping as well
I see different kinds of advice on this board, and I want to express my absolute opinion on it.
I am fine with the whole GAL thing. Where I am NOT fine with it is when we give spouses who are trying to DB "permission" to go hang out with members of the opposite sex while at the same time trying to save their marriage. This is a divorce busting message board, not a divorce causing message board. And truthfully, it's CONFLICTING advice to the person who is trying to save their marriage.
OIN needs to put his focus on his W. Period.
In this case, if OIN is not careful, he will involve a FOURTH party. There is already is/was a third party involved.
OIN's life is complicated and stressful enough as it is.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Onside here Glim... It also does NOT set a very good example.. What if OIN's FATHER IN LAW got WIND OF THAT?
He'd be SUNK...
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad advice.. even if he's just socializing with other women... OIN your father in law would have a FIELD DAY with that...
Yup, for NOW, motivate her to commit to staying in the same HOME... baby steps here...
So ya, make no changes is a better strategy than telling her she's "no prize"...
I disagree. I'm with Lotus on this one.
Puppy
That would have been a wake-up call to this WAW...if my H had told me that I was no prize. What a humbling thought! I felt I was the best thing that ever happen to him.
I really did not mean to suggest that OIN use those particular words, I was just summing up the idea that she needs a dose of reality to learn that OIN has some standards for a wife to meet. He is not interested in being married just until something better comes along for her, and he does not want to be treated like a servant. If those are the terms of the marriage, then he needs to rethink if he wants it. She is not the only one who can say the marriage does not meet her goals.
And, it is more honorable to come out and say, "If you want to stay married, then some changes need to be made" rather than pretending things are fine while actively searching for a new mate. That is underhanded and devious.
She's not searching for a new mate now... that road is closed, which is why I am reccomending taking a softball approach here... I am suspecting that his wife may be reconsidering her husband as a viable alternative now that the interloper may indeed be gone.
I think while she's reconsidering her husband as a viable option the LAST thing he wants to do is start to pick on her attitude...
And i do believe that MWD agrees with ME here... No where in DR do I recall seeing her suggest that you chastize your wayward spouse as not being a prize...
Wasn't it you Lotus who said "you can catch more flies with honey?" I am seeing a much different approach from you now for some reason...
Call it what you want, and I neither agree nor disagree with it, but the whole thing of "acting as if" is "pretending". Thus the word "acting".
Sounds fine to me if he wants to say "If you want to stay married, then......". That sounds OK to me at the proper timing. Not sure Mrs OIN is far enough over OM to be giving an ultimatum right now.
And this is my opinion based on what I believe, but if I told my W she was no prize, I'm not sure that humbling would come to mind for her.
I do agree that OIN needs to think more strategically now about boundaries. Boundaries does NOT include a tit for tat.
I see different kinds of advice on this board, and I want to express my absolute opinion on it.
I am fine with the whole GAL thing. Where I am NOT fine with it is when we give spouses who are trying to DB "permission" to go hang out with members of the opposite sex while at the same time trying to save their marriage. This is a divorce busting message board, not a divorce causing message board. And truthfully, it's CONFLICTING advice to the person who is trying to save their marriage.
OIN needs to put his focus on his W. Period.
In this case, if OIN is not careful, he will involve a FOURTH party. There is already is/was a third party involved.
OIN's life is complicated and stressful enough as it is.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Why focus on her when she has been kicking dirt up in his face. If she is his only source of female attention, she is basically inserting into him negative attention for his positive interactions. What happens if she is the only one communicating with him, is his image is being distorted. He will not be as attractive to her or anyone else if thats the only place where he gets it from. Thats what some of us where saying, sometimes to get results you have to do some bad things. All of you are giving "good" advice, but in some situations it can't work. I have a feeling I know where OIN's wife is mentally, and I understand the interaction the two of them are doing right now. Basically, today he is the one who is "paying" and he is "paying" her for being cheated on. She is not "paying" anything in their interactions. And he's training her its OK. How long does it take to build a new habit? 3 weeks or so of consistent behaviors. Its been approximately 6 weeks of busted affair and she's been kicking dirt in his face the entire time, as well as giving him very little positive attention if anything at all. I felt that she could come back if she felt OIN had "value". We all know he does have "value", but she doesn't see it that way. Perhaps if others in the world supported that OIN has "value" the wife may see it differently.
After working this all out in my mind, I think he stops "paying" her as much. He should "pay" her very little, due to the fact she cheated on him. Plus on the "payment" was the entire habit thing I mentioned.
Think about the "payment" thing in that OIN, is catering to her needs, providing highly focused attention and concentration on making sure he is doing and saying right, while she is able to have bad behaviors around him and pay him very little attention and care.
He's in a pretty bad spot, but sadly better than mine.
Good luck all of you.
Onside here Glim... It also does NOT set a very good example.. What if OIN's FATHER IN LAW got WIND OF THAT?
He'd be SUNK...
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad advice.. even if he's just socializing with other women... OIN your father in law would have a FIELD DAY with that...
I think he can do it in a respectful manner. What should OIN's father expect when his daughter delivered death blows to OIN? I don't expect many to agree here, but some people will understand what I'm saying.
Sounds fine to me if he wants to say "If you want to stay married, then......". That sounds OK to me at the proper timing. Not sure Mrs OIN is far enough over OM to be giving an ultimatum right now.
Challenging his wife now while the affair is falling apart and her work is a bees nest of gossip is not likely a good strategy...
If the affair isn't a fun place to go, and work isn't a fun place to be anymore...
Make the HOME FUN in my opinion..
The routes that looked more attractive to her are closing... I think that's the time when you take a warmer approach...
Glim you hit it on the nose, timing is important right now...
Until the withdrawal follows through fully OIN your wife is going to be difficult... its a LOT easier to use proper DBusting techniques when there's no third party attacking your marriage.
I never resorted to name calling or attacking my wife's value while she was cheating.
I never complimented her etiher. I attacked the behaviour of lying and cheating ONLY.
And if I had told my wife "you're no prize" when she was cheating on me she would feel miserable right now and my work would be a LOT HARDER...
It's bad enough repairing a marriage OIN when YOUR wounds need healed, why do damage to her that you have to repair later?
Because i never attacked my wife when she was cheating, my work NOW is a LOT EASIER than it could have been. I just see attacking her as being no prize an injury OIN that you will have to spend months repairing later on down the line.
Ya telling her she's "no prize" may wake her up, but I honestly doubt it... And I don't think its worth the risk of the damage that might be done.
She's just going to tell her father, and he's going to press her in earnest to leave... OIN you've been spending months showing her the better you... why ruin that NOW by resorting to attacking her?
I think he can do it in a respectful manner. What should OIN's father expect when his daughter delivered death blows to OIN? I don't expect many to agree here, but some people will understand what I'm saying.
If my daughter was having a problem marriage and I saw my son in law out socializing with other women I would come by her home MYSELF and PICK HER UP and take her home.
DLS you honeslty think her FATHER is going to take HIS side here? Do you honeslty think HE sees ANYTHING short of angelic potential from his daugther?
He doens't... He's not objective at all if you bothered reading OIN's thread. Her father is a meddlesome ignoramus.
And I am sure her father has no idea about the "death blows" that she's throwing about... You think OIN's wife is telling him how horrible she's been?
Think again... she's painting OIN into a monster like most waywards do... And I bet a LOT of that was to pave the gravel for OM to walk in...
Women in particular seem to want to run SMEAR CAMPAIGNS against their spouse before they run off with another man.
Her father DLS is NOT objective here... You are advocating adding FUEL to a house that's already on fire.
And how on earth does one socialize with women "in a respectable manner" while their wife is at home miserable and planning to leave?
I don't think there's anything "respectable" about that.
Again if my daughter was married, at home, miserable, and wanted to leave and I saw my son in law out socializing with other women I would NOT find that "respectable" at all.
When your spouse is sad and wants to leave bar-hopping isn't where you belong... It's at home with your spouse so they can SEE you GIVE a DAMN
This is where some of our opinions differ.
I don't believe there is a problem in socializing with the opposite sex. Many people feel this way, but on a DB forum may not voice it.
I don't think that she gets to treat him like she is, and sometimes even if you are the father or mother you should take side of the one who is in the right. What lesson are you teaching your child if you allow them to do wrong by someone and there is no cost to them. Support them if they fall, but they should be doing right by the one they wronged.
I stand on the technicality that if the wife is OIN's sole source of female attention that she will drive down his attractiveness due to their interaction. I know its "bad" advice.
Its one of those things about knowing how things work.
If the family is saying she did right and supporting her here with a lot of love and motivation in the direction she's moving, he's already toast.
OIN, just consider what I'm saying if you get close to being "used up", it really works and you don't have to cheat on anyone.
Also these really bad waywards, if the "see you give a damn" it makes them more resentful. I know you know what I'm saying here. They are being real bad, and saying in their evil mind "oh, and your soo good, huh?".
DLS
"Sometimes to get results you have to do bad things".
I'm not trying to hijack OIN's thread, but again this is bad advice. This is also where I was going with the whole "tit for tat" thing.
In my opinion, if ANYONE is intentionally putting themselves in a situation with the opposite sex, they are NOT serious about saving their M.
I can have a interaction with the opposite sex by shaking hands and communicating to some ladies in a church environment.
I can have a interaction with the opposite sex by shaking hands and communicating to some ladies in a church environment.
While your spouse is at home miserable?
NO... You LOOK to the community and especially your father in law like you DON'T GIVE A DAMN
I can have a interaction with the opposite sex by shaking hands and communicating to some ladies in a church environment.
From Phil McGraw's website :
When your life or relationship becomes rocky and affects your sexual relationship, that is the time you should turn toward your partner, not away from him/her because of your sexual needs.
Being friendly in church? Thats the beauty of this forum is that there are a variety of viewpoints and opinions.
Being friendly in church? Thats the beauty of this forum is that there are a variety of viewpoints and opinions.
DLS you keep IGNORING the point that the WIFE is at home miserable planning on LEAVING
Stop being evasive.
Wasn't it you Lotus who said "you can catch more flies with honey?" I am seeing a much different approach from you now for some reason...
I could easily say the same thing about you, Allen. What is it about this one sitch that has you giving the wayward spouse such a PASS??? I'm perplexed.
Puppy
No leverage
No OM
I wholeheartily reccomend a softball approach ones there's no interloper attacking the marriage from the outside...
And I said that pretty clear I think... IF the OM is GONE from her head, and the withdrawal is gone you can be more inviting then and DBing is a lot easier...
It IS a lot easier to convince someone to cooperate with you when the temptation to escape doesn't have a face and a voice... Why play hardball if it isn't necessary?
DLS, you have admitted many times to leaving your first W because of an affair, and now your current W is involved in her own affair.
I don't know if you should be offering too many "differing opinions".
DLS, you have admitted many times to leaving your first W because of an affair, and now your current W is involved in her own affair.
I don't know if you should be offering too many "differing opinions".
Snap!
It seems to me that much of the "softball" approach here is being based on this assumption:
OIN's wife has ended her affair, ended contact with OM, and is in withdrawal.
Even if that were TRUE (and I am FAR from certain that it is), there's a HUGE difference between a FWAW that is moody and in withdrawal, but is contrite, remorseful, and just having good and bad days showing her husband a loving attitude.
When my wife ended her affair, she was truly remorseful, and said all of the right things. Then she'd have a couple of good days, and then she'd be Evil Incarnate again for a day, full of venom and entitlement again, but then she'd apologize and then the fit would be over.
I'm seeing NONE of that from OIN's wife, and I'm really seeing NO DISTINCTION in her treatment of him now, vs. her treatment of him when he first came to this forum.
I just think that sometimes crap behavior is crap behavior. Someone please show me the GOOD cycles here! This woman has never recanted her current desire (and plan) to divorce OIN, and she's never exhibited an ounce of remorse.
Puppy
I must have missed the part where this was verified.
Puppy
It IS a lot easier to convince someone to cooperate with you when the temptation to escape doesn't have a face and a voice... Why play hardball if it isn't necessary?
OIN has been trying to "convince his wife to cooperate with him" for as long as he's been posting here. I don't see it working, and supplication rarely (ever??) does.
Allen, your advice is fit for a woman who has ended an affair, is contrite, and has returned to the marriage to try to reconcile. THAT IS NOT THE CASE HERE. We're not even certain there's still no contact (I'm pretty sure there is???), there's NO remorse, and her CURRENT POSITION IS THAT SHE STILL IS DIVORCING HIM AS SOON AS HER FATHER HAS THE HOUSE READY.
Someone please tell me what I'm missing. Hell's bells, if nothing else, when LOTUS and I agree, that oughta tell you something, LOL.
Puppy
I am perplexed also as to why it is so threatening to suggest to the wife that she should actually act like a wife. All kinds of shenanigans are suggested rather than just flat out speaking the truth. Horrors! What if a husband and wife spoke to each other and said what they think and feel! Would the world stop?
I come from a family that never thought twice about telling one of us that he/she needed to "shape up or ship out", "get with the program", or be reminded that he/she "is not God's gift to the world". People often need these reminders, or they go around taking advantage of those closest to them. It's just human nature. If two people are going to get along over the longterm, they need to be able to speak frankly to each other. I don't believe I said OIN should give his wife an ultimatum that the marriage was over if she didn't say thank you for the ride. I suggested that he let her know that HE NEEDED TO CONSIDER IF HE WANTS TO REMAIN in such a relationship. (And I even surprise myself that I am taking such a Gnosis approach here.) These are relatively gentle words, and I think still in the realm of catching flies with honey.
They had a big fight and he told the supervisor OIN's wife was pursuing him and he got his shifts changed...
I always qualify with "if" the affair is over and out of her head.. and I think its leaving now slowly...
His wife has invited him on outings with her and such... She IS having a LOT of trouble verbalizing anything even remotely nice his way... But the actions are on the odd day inviting and others not so much... BUT its been revealed now that she's been fantasizing about OM and that he was leading her on at work still...
There was a blow up about a week ago where they had a big fight and she's been humiliated at work now..
I think that shift in the politics there may change her attitude at home now... I am inclined to keep up the warm outlook at home to see what effect this change in her work enviornment has on her... She's been in dreamland for months
Hell's bells, if nothing else, when LOTUS and I agree, that oughta tell you something, LOL.
I concur.
I suggested that he let her know that HE NEEDED TO CONSIDER IF HE WANTS TO REMAIN in such a relationship. (And I even surprise myself that I am taking such a Gnosis approach here.) These are relatively gentle words, and I think still in the realm of catching flies with honey.
Yes, if you withdraw the "you're not a prize" approach I agree with you... And OIN has spoken up when she was disrespectful to him on a conference call.. he's not just being a complete doormat here.
I just don't know if this is the best time to go on the offensive... I am inclined on waiting a bit to see what impact the mess at work has on her attitude here...
If OM is completely out of her head for over a month and OIN hasnt' seen the slightest improvement in her attitude I would consider changing strategies...
But as long as there is any fantasizing about OM here or cheating THAT should be the subject of issue because they clearly at that point don't CARE about acting like a wife anymore so asking them gently to accept that role is pointless
They had a big fight and he told the supervisor OIN's wife was pursuing him and he got his shifts changed...
I always qualify with "if" the affair is over and out of her head.. and I think its leaving now slowly...
I think it's been pretty well established that OM has been full of chit from the get-go as to what his relationship with OIN's wife has been, and who's been pursuing, etc.
So now we are to believe all of this?
I don't.
Puppy
OIN has been trying to "convince his wife to cooperate with him" for as long as he's been posting here. I don't see it working, and supplication rarely (ever??) does.
The OM has been leading OIN's wife on for months... so that route wasn't effective no...
I am not advocating supplication, but I am advocating not attacking one's wife saying "you're no prize"
I cant' see that winning anyone any points at home either way... Nor waking them up to reality... Its borderline name calling...
I reccomend being above that sort of thing
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think we've talked this one to death.
Puppy
I think it's been pretty well established that OM has been full of chit from the get-go as to what his relationship with OIN's wife has been, and who's been pursuing, etc.
So now we are to believe all of this?
I don't.
Puppy
OK, that's fair enough... If you want more proof that's reasonable... I may be misreading the confidence in OIN's posts about the situation... we will have to wait to hear from him about the state of the nation...
I was given the strong impression from his posts that the affair was indeed crashing to pieces now finally...
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I think we've talked this one to death.
Puppy
We seem to have a different conception of the state of the nation in the OIN household... lets wait to get the facts... I am all for that
OK, I admit to cheating and looking at Allen's post. i think where we differ is that you see the wife as a passive recipient of the OM's interest, and I see a woman pursuing another man, in fact, desperate to jump ship into a new relationship. You describe the OM as a predator. I see him as an accomplice, or maybe even a bumbler who got caught up in her imagination. I see a woman who is childlike and at an adolescent stage, who dreams of weddings and knights on white steeds racing in to whisk beautiful princesses away from evil ogre husbands. And lo, and behold! She is a beautiful princess (albeit with headaches and bad moods) who needs rescuing!
Did no expect to come home and see so much activity in this thread. Thank you all for the feedback.
Here is how today went.
After work, W showered and slept for a couple hours. She got up and dressed to leave. We took a ride to the mall to Dave & Busters. We played a bunch of arcade games then did some bowling. We had a pretty good time. It was almost like 2 friends hanging out.
There were times were W was kind of short with me where she would say "hmm?" or "what?" or "umm hmm" things like that. I guess this is something I have to tolerate for now.
After we too a walk around the mall then left and headed to another store. It was a craft store and W talked about getting picture frames to put pictures on our dogs on the wall.
W then headed to a hardware store and W talked about getting a few things for the yard, I said nothing really other than "That would be nice" I was looking at vertical blinds for out living room W and I had interest in the same color/style. W asked "Do you want to get them" I replied "If you like them and want them, then get them. I do like them myself" W did purchase them.
We then headed home. When we arrived the dog had a mess waiting for us. We both cleaned up the mess. We then laid in bed and played a little family feud.
We communicated better today and had a pretty good time at the arcade and bowling. I am trying my best to fill that "void" without pursuing. There were times I wanted to press my luck but refrained from doing so. I am doing my best to develop a friendship and becoming someone she is comfortable around and talk to.
I don't know if there were any interactions with OM at work today or any discussion about him between her or anyone else.
Also I wanted to add that W suggested we cut down pine trees (3) in front of our home. They are causing her allergies to act up and it would open the front yard up ect... I said "That sound's good and all but I don't have the time nor money to do that. How about you get your father to take them down." W replied "I will have to ask my father is her knows anyone."
OK about OM...This argument/blow up happened on Wed. My W called off work Thurs and Friday. Today then both worked but from my understanding OM requested to work on opposite level on Sat. leaving them to work together 2 days a week. I am not sure how today went. My good friend was told if he seen them having ANY contact that he should let me know right away. OM is under the impression that he is being watched all the time. Tomorrow they work together it won't be directly but they will at least see each other.
OM told a sup. at work is a good friends with OMW about the issues involving my W. OM is putting all blame on my W...we'll see how it goes in the next week.
EXCELLENT.. the more he blames her to people at work the more TURNED OFF SHE will be be to OM... Let him dig his grave...
I had thought that they weren't going to work at all anymore... hmmm
Good news on the interaction front OIN....
If you can keep days like that going I don't see any need to tell your wife she's "no prize"... I can't see that helping
I agree with Lotus that your wife daydreams alot and has idealistic expectations of a spouse... She's spot on there.
But insulting your wife isn't the way to motivate her to grow up in my opinion...
It will be interesting to see if FIL is willing to do work on YOUR HOME OIN for YOUR WIFE... THAT will be an interesting change of pace...
You might want to see if she wants FIL to do any more work around there... Imagine, him having to take time out of working on your wife's escape route to work on YOUR home instead...
Keep up the good work. I think you are doing great.
I'm off the advice stuff now that you're back to figuring out what stage the R with OM is.
I felt I had to speak up when a poster said the best advice was for OIN to start interacting with other women for some confidence. I'm just not a fan of that advice. It does not help divorce bust. It distracts and has potential to do more harm than good.
I'm off the advice stuff now that you're back to figuring out what stage the R with OM is.
I felt I had to speak up when a poster said the best advice was for OIN to start interacting with other women for some confidence. I'm just not a fan of that advice. It does not help divorce bust. It distracts and has potential to do more harm than good.
I concur.
As it were, they work together 3 times a week. After the first exposure OM requested not to work directly with W anymore. From there I was told they still say "hi" and "bye" but nothing like it was. Then a little over a week ago my friend seen chit-chatting and that's when I called OMW and told her what was going on.
This caused problems for OM and he then played dumb. He then admitted to W that there was some communication and he would end it. OM then told W he would talk to the supervisors and I guess he did. One of the sups is a friend of OMW and confirmed that OM at least talked to her.
OMW and OM speak to us on the phone. OM swears and sticks up for his family. OMW gets on phone degrades my W and said "My husband called you ..... and said he could never leave me for that, so snap out of you fantasy world, you are a little kid, grow up."
W heard about this got upset and complained to friend from work that it was reciprocated and now OM is making it out to be all her. Friend from work tells W to "move on" and try to work on marriage (so I was told but who knows).
W calls FIL talks to him about the sitch, not sure if W told FIL the whole truth... but FIL tells W "Tell the people at work to F-Off" and "If they call the house again tell them to go F themselves" W loves and respects her father and his word is Gospel
OIN
Your wife wants to do the following :
1. Remove trees from the yard
2. Hang photos up
3. Buy things for the house
Does THAT sound like someone who is planning on leaving? Or do you think she MIGHT just be TESTING your resolve and commitment here?
I don't know to be honest. We been here before during our sitch. I mean in the begging of our sitch we talked about having children. Throughout our sitch W spoke future tense and then would retract or contradict her statement or the next day.
I made a post around Easter time where W wanted to get patio furniture and I said "Sound good, where do you want to go?" then she said "Up to you, you'll be the one paying and you got too many bills already and have you figured what your going to do about the mortgage once I leave?"
We'll see how long this attitude last. I learned from the past, if she wants something I let her follow through with it, I was spending way too much money thinking I was helping our sitch only to find I was being setup for failure.
W heard about this got upset and complained to friend from work that it was reciprocated and now OM is making it out to be all her. Friend from work tells W to "move on" and try to work on marriage (so I was told but who knows).
Good, lots of pressure in your direction. Each time the OM blames your wife in public it does a LOT of damage to her fantasy... which is a good thing... so let him blame your wife all he wants to... He's just driving your wife away which is what you want...
W calls FIL talks to him about the sitch, not sure if W told FIL the whole truth... but FIL tells W "Tell the people at work to F-Off" and "If they call the house again tell them to go F themselves" W loves and respects her father and his word is Gospel
She won't tell him everything... I would love to see OM, OMW and FIL get together to chat.. I think those two would straighten your FIL out a bit too... He needs to get his arse out of the clouds too...
I agree with Lotus in part, your wife is not
behaving like a prize for sure... but then again few of us do consistently...
It looks as if things are getting better for you OIN... I don't think this is the time to change your strategies... I do think they are making a dent, the holdup wasn't your efforts as much as your wife holding a candle for OM and OM NOT doing the WORK to END the AFFAIR COMPLETELY...
He clearly just distanced himself and was hoping that would be enough. That is NOT how you end an affair... His wife needs to educate him... mabye we can find some articles on how to end affairs and send them to OMW for HER to educate him on it... He likley wanted to remain "friends" to keep stroking his ego... But the end result was him leading her on like some silly high school game
We'll see how long this attitude last. I learned from the past, if she wants something I let her follow through with it, I was spending way too much money thinking I was helping our sitch only to find I was being setup for failure.
Yep, and I agree with you, dont' bankrupt yourself, your wife needs to grow up and learn how to spell budget just like anyone else does.
But the silver lining here is that she's showing some positive indicators... Just not many... She's not been a complete shrew for months...
Dont' be discussing children NOW, that's not a good idea no... Just make it clear SUBTELY that you want kids... If you two are out for example and see a couple with a child point that out to your wife with a smile... That should be enough.
you have to decide how much progress you are making and if its worth YOUR time to continue it or ask her to go and move on...
You just keep a look out for those positive signs, they are there... They won't be consistent, she's going to have good and bad days...
You have to decide if she's showing signs that things might gradually, VERY gradually get better as OM fades away into the background... Keep a VERY CLOSE EYE ON THAT
You decide day to day if its worth your effort.
That's your choice there.
Dont' be discussing children NOW, that's not a good idea no... Just make it clear SUBTELY that you want kids... If you two are out for example and see a couple with a child point that out to your wife with a smile... That should be enough.
Oh no, of course not. I am talking about the first week or two into our sitch we were. Also I been doing exactly that, for example while shopping I pointed at baby shoes and smiled and said "I like those, they are cute"
I got burned by W too many times in the past 4 months thinking things are getting better then she drops the bomb again. I am staying detached as possible. She wants something for the house, let her get it, she wants something done for the house that I am not already doing, she do it or let FIL lend a hand.
I have read the past several pages and have enjoyed the different point of views. I have to, though, agree with Puppy on this one. I think OIN is doing himself and his marriage a real disservice if he doesn't address her bahavior. I don't know that it has to be done now, but it does need to be done.
The first two times my WAS left to run back to her ex, I let her come back without making her "earn" her way back. I was consumed with anger but didn't hold her accountable the way I should have. It was a huge mistake. And I'm sure its why she had no problem doing it this time. Learn from the mistakes of others on here, OIN.
DLS, you have admitted many times to leaving your first W because of an affair, and now your current W is involved in her own affair.
I don't know if you should be offering too many "differing opinions".
Well. Some of us give better advice than what we use on ourself. I'm not 100% positive mine is currently is in an affair, but if you good folks want to verify it for me - I'd be more than glad to take the information and my feelings won't be hurt.
If I were to use my common sense, I'd say that yes something is going on.
It seems to me that much of the "softball" approach here is being based on this assumption:
OIN's wife has ended her affair, ended contact with OM, and is in withdrawal.
Even if that were TRUE (and I am FAR from certain that it is), there's a HUGE difference between a FWAW that is moody and in withdrawal, but is contrite, remorseful, and just having good and bad days showing her husband a loving attitude.
When my wife ended her affair, she was truly remorseful, and said all of the right things. Then she'd have a couple of good days, and then she'd be Evil Incarnate again for a day, full of venom and entitlement again, but then she'd apologize and then the fit would be over.
I'm seeing NONE of that from OIN's wife, and I'm really seeing NO DISTINCTION in her treatment of him now, vs. her treatment of him when he first came to this forum.
I just think that sometimes crap behavior is crap behavior. Someone please show me the GOOD cycles here! This woman has never recanted her current desire (and plan) to divorce OIN, and she's never exhibited an ounce of remorse.
Puppy
Do you guys see that she's getting "paid" by OIN for bad behavior? Its been long enough that this is the current expectation, so why should she change anything?
There is a joke that goes something like...How can you tell if your wife or your dog loves you more? Lock them both in the house and go away for a week, and when you come back, see which one runs up to you and is happy to see you! I see a parallel here. She treats both OIN and the dog alike. Some days she plays with them, and some days she talks about getting rid of them. And at this point, they both respond the same way. They are happy to see her.
She treats the dog better in my opinion. Thats messed up that your wife can not see you for a week, and not be happy to see you. That is my current reality as well as many others here.
OIN
Your wife wants to do the following :
1. Remove trees from the yard
2. Hang photos up
3. Buy things for the house
Does THAT sound like someone who is planning on leaving? Or do you think she MIGHT just be TESTING your resolve and commitment here?
She was talking about the future two weeks ago, too, as she was contacting OM, lying about it, fantasizing about him, and telling OIN she was still divorcing him.
I think we've all gotten caught up in the past 36 hours about one phrase of advice: "tell your wife that she's no prize," which Lotus herself said was NOT supposed to be "in those words."
The KEY POINT some of us are trying to make is that OIN needs to call his wife on her disrespectful and rude behavior (something I've been saying for two MONTHS), and that she has to declare herself to be trying to reconcile or is she still out shopping for OM and trying to actively leave the marriage?Yes, the above are normally good signs. But OIN's wife has shown herself to be a little different than the average bird, too. We need to know that she's doing these things WHILE sincerely not contacting OM, not lying to her husband, and not actively trying to divorce him.
Puppy
you have to decide how much progress you are making and if its worth YOUR time to continue it or ask her to go and move on...
You just keep a look out for those positive signs, they are there... They won't be consistent, she's going to have good and bad days...
I agree with this, as I stated yesterday. However, I think that her "good days" need to be defined by
IS SHE MAKING STATEMENTS (at a minimum) AND ACTIONS (preferred) THAT DEMONSTRATE A DESIRE TO RECONCILE THE MARRIAGE. Not "is she messing around with the dogs with me," "playing Family Feud on the bed" or "not being a total shrew."
Yes, some of their playful interactions are getting better. But genuine affair-has-ended, marital reconciliations are marked by good days and bad days and on the good days the formerly-wayward spouse doesn't still say they're divorcing you, and their continued venom toward the betrayed spouse (on its face, very normal) is followed up almost immediately by contrition ("I'm sorry I was such a b*tch yesterday; this is just all very hard for me," or some such).
THAT is the step I'll be looking for, along with HONESTY and RESPECTFUL BEHAVIOR TOWARD OIN.
Puppy
Do you guys see that she's getting "paid" by OIN for bad behavior? Its been long enough that this is the current expectation, so why should she change anything?
Puppy
How do, those of you who have reconciled, get passed the anger? Your wayward spouse has lied to you, treated you like crap, been disrespectful, and, often, shared intimacy with someone else.
Please explain how you dealt with the anger.
The KEY POINT some of us are trying to make is that OIN needs to call his wife on her disrespectful and rude behavior (something I've been saying for two MONTHS), and that she has to declare herself to be trying to reconcile or is she still out shopping for OM and trying to actively leave the marriage?
Again, I agree with the Pupmeister.
Canadian Kid,
You ask a very important question. How do you get over the anger? And I might add, the distrust.
It is very difficult. You have to look deep into your own heart to do it. It's not something that happens quickly, and I know I thought as much as I wanted it, I thought it might not happen at all. It helps a lot if the spouse expresses real remorse for the pain inflicted. When you can believe the spouse, as Puppy described above, that helps. And of course, there are the old good times to consider, and new good times that are happening. For myself, I had things I regretted too, so I had to be realistic about blaming.
And then there is time, and there is change. My H and I worked on reconciliation through the Retrouvaille program (
www.helpourmarriage.org) and they taught us skills for talking to each other in new ways and taught us how to change to be better spouses. Unless we changed ourselves, both of us, and changed the way we interacted, I don't think true reconciliation would have been possible. Going back to the same old marriage is not desirable. You do need to create a new and better marriage.
Lotus,
Thanks for the explaination. I know after the first time my ex left I was never the same. No trust, just anger. It didn't matter what she was saying or doing I honestly felt nothing but hate towards her. In hindsight I should have walked away then. All I did was poison almost every interaction we had after that. I had always held her in such high regard but after that I didn't look at her the same way.
I was curious if others on this board had suffered through the same emotions. Thank you.
And I think its relevant because there will be a time in OIN's situation when he's probably going to have some anger to deal with over his wife's betrayal.
DLS,
On the joke, maybe I told it wrong. What makes it a joke is the part about being locked in the house and neglected. A dog will forget that kind of thing instantly and just be happy to see the master. Humans are not so forgiving, nor should they be. There is a modicum of respect for another human being that is necessary.
A dog will forget that kind of thing instantly and just be happy to see the master. Humans are not so forgiving, nor should they be. There is a modicum of respect for another human being that is necessary.
Many dogs will tear the house apart if neglected... You need to give dogs more credit for their ability to protest and stand up for themselves.
I am pretty sure the joke is "lock them both in the trunk of your car for a day, and see which one is happy to see you when you open it".
Thank you, TimeHeals. I have trouble remembering jokes.
Alright...
W went to work this morning, before she left she told me she was leaving and I said "OK, drive safely." W sound pleasant enough when she told me she was taking off for work. Usually I walk downstairs with her and lock the door behind her but the past couple days I have not, I remained in bed.
I woke up early this morning, I had a flag football tournament to play in. W got hom her usual time. When I arrived home I ahd to run in the door and up the stairs into the bathroom, I had cut my hand and I was bleeding all over. W actually showed a bit of concern, usually she would remain silent and in this instance she wanted to know what happened or how it happened.
While I was gone and since she had been home my W cleaned the kitchen, even doing the dishes and she had also cleaned the bathroom. I hopped in the shower and she went to lay down.
I know you say playing the games and hanging out is not really anything, but when you go from "I wasted 10 years of my life on you and wont waste another minute" to us actually having a good time together is a positive to me.
Also I just want to say, I DO PLAN ON HAVING the talk with my W but I am going to give it a week or so before I do. It is not that I wont it is just the timing as to when I will.
OIN I think if OM stays away you should see an increase in her cooperativeness... OM needs to keep that cord solidly CUT though... He's been quite clumsy about it... Maybe the latest blow up did the trick...
The better days are rare early on, but you should see a VERY GRADUAL improvement in her attitude over the next few months if you keep at it and OM keeps clear of your wife...
Well I have eyes and ears there. Also at the first hint of them two communicating OMW will blow up on OM.
I see a slight change in her attitude. I am not sure how to handle it from here. It has been 4 days since the blow up. W still pretty much withdrawn.
W has off work the next two days, we will see how they go...
Just keep doin what you're doin... you should see up and down days still, but a gradual increase in up days and gradual decrease in down days... that's how it goes... it may take three months for her to get back to normal assuming there is no more interaction and she has firmly given up on him now.
I know you say playing the games and hanging out is not really anything, but when you go from "I wasted 10 years of my life on you and wont waste another minute" to us actually having a good time together is a positive to me.
No, I did NOT say it was nothing -- please re-read my post. I said that it's more important that she indicate that she actually wants to TRY TO RECONCILE, and begins to treat you with more respect, than it is that she plays games and messes around with the dogs with you.
Puppy
After W woke up we watched a comedy DVD and after we watched a few of our favorite TV shows. We had a few good laughs, at one point the dog jumped on W while she was sitting on the couch and began to lick my W face relentlessly causing W to fall back on me, W did not seem too haste in getting up.
W made a comment about turning our front window into a bay window and so I said "That would look great, ask your father to do it" W did not respond.
After the shows ended, I pulled out the telescope, went on the back deck and W joined me. After about 10 min W decided she wanted to go in and now she is laying down on the couch in the dark she said "I'll going to lay down here for a little bit" and so I went up to the bedroom.
They had a big fight and he told the supervisor OIN's wife was pursuing him and he got his shifts changed...
I always qualify with "if" the affair is over and out of her head.. and I think its leaving now slowly...
I think it's been pretty well established that OM has been full of chit from the get-go as to what his relationship with OIN's wife has been, and who's been pursuing, etc.
So now we are to believe all of this?
I don't.
Puppy
Phuck OM!!!
W made a comment about turning our front window into a bay window and so I said "That would look great, ask your father to do it" W did not respond.
I am wondering if your wife loses some respect for you when you turn to her father for assistance?
It may be in your better interest to NOT lean too much in that direction.
You can always compliment her father but still bow out :
"I know your father's quite good at this stuff, but I think I would like to have that done for you on my own in this case... Would that be ok?"
Or something like that... You would have to think on this, but how do you think your wife perceives it when you suggest she ask him to work on your home for you?
i am worried it may not be helping your case?
What do you think?
I say this because I am not going to invest in a home remodel and then have W leave it.
For example
W: I am leaving
Me: What about all these repairs/remodeling we did to our home?
W: That was you not me, you wanted, you did them.
Where as if she asked her father, he would get the impression he is going to stay and I know W would not waste his time. Of course I help FIL do these things
Why not take the opportunity to ask if she is still planning to leave. If she says, "We should redo the kitchen", you say, "I don't need a new kitchen if you're moving to the apartment." She might be looking for a way to tell you she is not moving.
Why not take the opportunity to ask if she is still planning to leave. If she says, "We should redo the kitchen", you say, "I don't need a new kitchen if you're moving to the apartment." She might be looking for a way to tell you she is not moving.
Shortest distance between two points . . . AGREE.
Too much innuendo and dancing around the issues at hand. Puppy
Why not take the opportunity to ask if she is still planning to leave. If she says, "We should redo the kitchen", you say, "I don't need a new kitchen if you're moving to the apartment." She might be looking for a way to tell you she is not moving.
Yes, and women in particular like to HINT rather than say things outright...
I say accept the hint and don't pressure her.. It's just pursuit if you do try to get a straight answer from her - no relationship talk is right out of the book.
I woke up this morning, W out in the yard, walked back in and W was up. W was looking for flag for our flag pole. I helped her find it. W and I then went out front and agreed what a beautiful day it is...Ultimately we both agreed to go to the zoo, something we have not done in a while.
There are times where I see/hear my old W, though they are brief. I get the urge to jump on the opportunity but I refrain from doing so knowing we still have a long road ahead of us.
I will let you all know how the day goes.
OfficerInNeed,
My continued advice is going to be around people who like to spend time with you.
Why not take the opportunity to ask if she is still planning to leave. If she says, "We should redo the kitchen", you say, "I don't need a new kitchen if you're moving to the apartment." She might be looking for a way to tell you she is not moving.
Yes, and women in particular like to HINT rather than say things outright...
I say accept the hint and don't pressure her.. It's just pursuit if you do try to get a straight answer from her - no relationship talk is right out of the book.
Allen, it's not "pursuit" the way Lotus has it phrased above. Pursuit would be OIN, suggesting to his wife that they remodel.
His wife is on record as saying she's leaving. I'm not necessarily advocating a "What are your intentions regarding this marriage?" convo today (altho I do think it needs to happen), but I certainly think that if SHE keeps bringing up these home improvement projects, household logistics, expenditures, etc., then OIN should just take the opportunity to ask her what her intentions are.
Guess we'll have to disagree on this one.
Puppy
Let me think on it pup... There's a lot of variables at play here... And a well-worded inquiry may be appropriate... There's just a lot that's happened there in that last few days... right now i am inclined to suggest OIN play it cool to see if OIN is gonna stick to his wife and family or screw OIN over again...
I do like the interactions of the last 72 hours. So long as OIN has an intel system in place, I'm not disinclined to give it some more time, SO LONG AS he calls her on any rude or disrespectful behavior.
Puppy
Yes, we are on the same page then... Not to worry... I don't think she's pouring syrup on him at the moment...
Yes, we are on the same page then... Not to worry... I don't think she's pouring syrup on him at the moment...
Hey, if this were the SSM forum, that'd be a GOOD thing!!
Sorry, OIN -- I thought we could all use a laugh today.
Puppy
Ah, leave it to the dog to think of that!
Don't bring bestiality in as well! It's low enough already
I do like the interactions of the last 72 hours. So long as OIN has an intel system in place, I'm not disinclined to give it some more time, SO LONG AS he calls her on any rude or disrespectful behavior.
Puppy
Agree, some of our serious and probing interactions are too close up on one another. Perhaps space them out, and maybe even go an entire week without worrying about the "problem". Perhaps have fun yourself, and just maybe the wayward spouse might be wondering what the hell is OIN doing thats just so much fun.
He's giving her too much concentrated and dedicated attention today. We're all guilty of doing it, its how we know.
Yes, we are on the same page then... Not to worry... I don't think she's pouring syrup on him at the moment...
She's pouring powdered lime on him.
She's pouring powdered lime on him.
No it was a reference to Ken's thread actually... His wife is REALLY ADDICTED...
Allen A. "Addicted" to OM in ken's thread?
DLS, you've either got to keep up or get out of the boat!
I don't want to be in the "I get cheated on" boat, LOL.
I have been watching Ken's thread and Allen A did mention that the Wife is very addicted in that thread, but not exactly sure what he was talking about. My assumption was she was addicted to being in her affair.
OK here it goes....
This morning I spoke with OMW just to make sure we are on the same page. OMW asked me if my W said anything to me about a supervisor talking to her about the situation. I told OMW that W has not said anything to me.
According to OMW a sup. is going to talk to my W. This sup told OMW that she can guarantee that my W will not talk to OM anymore, that is if she wants to keep her job. I asked what about OM going up to my W? OMW said that OM will just make himself look like a damn fool and he will then get disciplined.
Also acording to OMW my W is telling female frined from work that OMW is talking about her. Now female friend from work and OMW get along also female friend from work and OM best friend are involved. SO now this is causing issues between them two. They all now think my W is doing this on purpose to make them all miserable like her.
There is a little more that OMW said but I want to get into our day.
=============
W and I were getting ready to head out. W went into the bathroom to try on a pair of pants. The door opened so I thought that it was cool for me to get in there now and that she was coming out. As I walked into the bathroom W was actually in the middle of changing pants and she closed the door in my face. I nearly said something but walked away, upset but I walked outside in the backyard to cool off.
After a few min I went back into the house, W was done in the bathroom and so I headed in. W was down stairs and yelled up
- "When you come down can you grab the ring and bring it with you"
- I said "Sure what ring you want? the heart shaped ruby one?"
- W said "Does not matter, anyone"
I instantly thought to myself if I should bring the wedding ring down to her.
Now, the wedding rings have sat in a cup in the bathroom for months now, so I eventually moved them into a box and put them in her bottom drawer, I don't think she knows they are there. My W has been wearing this ruby ring she bought herself a couple months back on her ring finger, only in the past few days has she not worn it at all.
I decided not to take the wedding ring to her and just brought down the ruby ring.
We eventually left and headed for the zoo. We had a pretty good time there. There were times where I had the urge to hold her hand or say a few things that may be considered pursuit but I held back. There were times where W seemed distant but I did not let it spoil our time. W actually fooled with me a little bit. She has a water bottle that also had a mist spray on it, and she jokingly sprayed me in the face a few times (for which it is intended and feels good in the hot sun). We had a good time and eventually left and decided to get something to eat.
We first went and visited my grandfather's burial site then went and got our food, on the way home stopped at a store.
While driving a song came on the radio and W looked like she was in a daze, my only thought was "she is thinking about OM" so I turned the station.
W talked about purchasing something and I told her to go ahead and do so. W said "no that is bike money" My W has wanted to get a bike for a little bit now. W swung by a bank cashed her check and went to a couple stores to look at bikes. W found the bike she wanted and asked if I was going to get one too. W ended up buying us both a bike so we could go bike riding....
Some where between store to store W talked about us buying a boat and spoke a lot of future tense words. W said she wanted to get her motorcycle permit and I told her that is something I would be interested in as well, W then said "Me and you can barrow my fathers bikes and go riding"
We got home, unloaded the bikes and went for a bike ride. We ended up at a park where we, like little kids, went on the swings. W started to talk to me about how her father use to take her to the park and go on the swings (I took her to the same park when we first started to date and pushed her on the same swings as her father did).
W talked about trips to Florida and the amusement parks (where we went on our honeymoon btw). W said "When we go back we are going to epcot and going on that ride" What she meant was on our honeymoon we waited 45 min in line for a ride that I chickened out on just before getting on and we left. Later that night I said "I wantto go on that ride" W was so upset. I said to W "if we ever went back you have more word, we will go on that ride" Then W started to talk about going to the grand canyon with her father when he goes but did not use "WE" but "I" and I said nothing about it.
We then road our bikes back home. We were out in the backyard. My nephew was back there and I asked him a question and he said "hmmm" in response. I said to my W "does that not bother you?" W shakes her head yes, then I said "The majority of the time I ask you a question or say something to you, I get the same response" W said "Do I do that?
and I said "yes"
W were walking in the house and I said something to my W and she said "hmmm" then I said "Are you being serious?" W said "What?" I said "I take that as disrespect" W then replied "Its not disrespect, you just need to speak up"...I admit ever since our sitch began i became more soft spoken but at the same time W does this even when she does hear me but I just left it at that.
We sat down and ate watched a little TV and here I am.
===========
Today was OK. Sometimes I feel so tempted to say or do something that might be too much too soon.
W still very "shy" around me or maybe just does not want me to see her anything other than fully cloth. This does bother me as I feel we'll never be intimate again. I don't expect for it to happen over night and I do understand that I have many other hurdles to jump before we reach that one.
W did give me the "hmm" "ummm hmmm"'s today but not as many as usual
There were times where I actually touched W hand , because there was a indent of some sort, so I asked what it was as I touched it and she allowed the touch not pulling away like she usually would or had in the past.
Also I gave W compliments about what she was wearing looking great....I really want to let her know how beautiful I think she is without pursuing.
I am sure I am leaving some things out but that is the bulk of it.
IMHO,
She does what she does with you and to you because it's "safe". It's obvious she's still addicted to the OM. Think about it in terms of an alcoholic, when confronted by others about their problem, they'll swear they've changed, make grand gestures and "show" that they've changed. But under the covers you'll find a bottle hidden.
That's how she's acting right now. While they are good, they aren't anything until she actually APOLOGIZES to you. She hasn't shown remorse so it will come up again. That's almost a guarantee from what I've seen on the boards.
Right now you're the back-up plan. If something or someone else comes along, in her state of mind right now, you're going to get dropped and left holding the bag again.
Be cautious and act like YOUR life is good. That YOU could live with or without her. That YOU would like her in your life and activities, but if she chooses not to, it's no big deal.
OIN I think that was a pretty good day.
You made some excellent judgement calls there... Selected the right ring, walked away when she closed the door on you, etc
All masterful choices.. this IS what DBing IS supposed to be about... In my opinion.
Lots of positives there OIN.
You MAY want to prepare a response when she gets talked to by the Sup... I smell another blow up coming...
You KNOW to stay OUT of it this time RIGHT?
When she's upset just STAY BACK, do NOT try to HELP.. she will just take it OUT on YOU and YOU will LOSE YOUR TEMPER and blast her right back...
Just STAY AWAY.
I think its way too soon to expect an apology from your wife... that takes MONTHS before that happens...
Good work OIN... Prepare for the next blow up from work...
You did a great job attacking that affair... Its a big ugly mess now that she seems to want to AVOID, or at least OM wants to avoid... that's exactly what exposure is about...
Excellent work
Mr. Bond, I follow what you are saying. That thought has crossed my mind, that is why I am trying not to get too attached to the way the past few days have gone.
I am just trying to make the most of them and fill that void.
I honestly think and feel like my W will never apologize because in her mind she has done nothing wrong. She does not knwo that I or anyone knows what I do...She would first have to tell the truth then apologize for it. I don't think she will reveal the truth because she will be afraid of the reaction (assuming she wanted to reconcile).
Only time will tell.
As for the potential blow up on the horizon...I think she will be in a terrible mood and mope around enticing me to ask what is wrong, then she will say it. Either way what sort of response do I give?
Personally I wouldn't give her any response. Whatever you say to her at that point is going to blow up in your face. You've seen it time and time again. She finds a way to twist it and make it like it's your fault or brings up how bad you were.
Don't poke the hornet's nest if you don't want to be stung.
Let her go through what she needs to on her own. Be there for support, but don't enable her behavior.
I honestly think and feel like my W will never apologize because in her mind she has done nothing wrong. She does not knwo that I or anyone knows what I do...She would first have to tell the truth then apologize for it.
I don't see how either she or you can think that you don't know that she has been chasing after some guy at work. Hello? They have called you up 3 times and told you what was going on. Meanwhile she has been telling you she plans to move out. Surely, you can put 1 and 1 together and figure out that she is looking for a new husband. And if you can figure it out, you should have a discussion about it. Because it is the stuff you sweep under the rug and pretend doesn't exist that destroys the marriage. You don't need any more info than what came into your house and asked to speak to you.
Why wait for an apology? Demand one. She is playing her baby games, swinging on the swing and pretending she's some kind of ten year old virgin. Is this what you want for the rest of your life? To life in a sexless marriage while your wife fantasizes about other men?
Life is long. The next time she brings up how to fix up the house, I recommend telling her that after she moves out you'll get a new wife. And the new wife will have ideas for the house. No point in changing the house now when she is fixing to move out!
I think its way too soon to expect an apology from your wife... that takes MONTHS before that happens...
Yep.....months. Even after deciding to stay in the M, she has to get through all her "stages" and the apology seems to be far down on the list.
I wouldn't be looking for an apology, or more broadly even remorse or contrition. As the best infidelity research points out, more than half the time, this never comes.
I'd be looking instead for an overall commitment to the reconciliation process, for TRUE no-contact, and for respectful and courteous behavior from her (the "no worse than you would treat a stranger" standard mentioned above).
Puppy
I wouldn't be looking for an apology, or more broadly even remorse or contrition. As the best infidelity research points out, more than half the time, this never comes.
I'd be looking instead for an overall commitment to the reconciliation process, for TRUE no-contact, and for respectful and courteous behavior from her (the "no worse than you would treat a stranger" standard mentioned above).
Puppy
The sad truth is we LBS are treated worse than a stranger.
I'd be looking instead for an overall commitment to the reconciliation process, for TRUE no-contact, and for respectful and courteous behavior from her
To be honest, I did not realize just how important an apology from the WAW was until I began reading the post from LBH's. Sadly, I think that is almost the last stage for her.
You see, the WAW blames her H for much of the reason why she did what she did (turning to OM, etc.) so IMHO, she doesn't feel that he deserves an apology from her. Frankly, I was stunned and had some very ugly feelings toward my H when he told me that I had not even apologized to him. I looked over at him setting there and all I could see was a self-righteous do-gooder who had a lot of people fooled. I almost hated him. He never apologized to "me" for the years & years of emotional neglect (amoung a ton of other things) and never admitted he had done anything to contribute to the breakdown of our M.
I remember telling him that I was working to reach the point of being willing "to be willing" and for him not to push it. It was all I could do just to make the decision to drop the EA and no farther contact with OM. The grieving would last for months and my resentment toward my H would continue past the grieving. I had to turn lose of the past and the bitterness I had built. Nothing was going to change the past, but I had no energy to put forth in the MR. That is what my H wanted to see.....me putting a lot of "effort" into working on the M. I thought that was very ironic beings that I had always been the one putting forth that effort.
The "respectful and courteous behavior" is really a milestone for some WAW's and not to be discredited.
The only reason I relate back to my personal stitch is that I wondered if it would help you relate. WAW's have so much in common. I do not condone a WAW in an A, but I understand.
I'm not saying it's easy, Sandi -- in fact, I know from my wife's own experience that it's NOT -- but I do think that "courteous and respectful behavior toward your betrayed spouse," coupled with a commitment to at least END THE DIVORCE PLANS, is a pretty fair MINIMUM standard at this stage, don't you?
I think it'll be another 6-12 months before OIN gets his emotional needs met in any significant way from his wife, don't get me wrong. But it needs to START with the above, in my opinion, and I don't think it's unrealistic -- or unfair -- whatsoever.
Puppy
What Sandi says is probably true. But, I note, you and your husband talked about it. There was discussion. He was not so frightened of you that he didn't bring it up. So, I say, "Good for him!" And whether you like it or not, you thought about it.
The problem here is no discussion. Avoidance of the issues. Problems do not solve themselves, and they don't just go away. This will fester under the rug until it destroys the marriage. Surely, OIN is not about to trust his wife anymore.
I wouldn't be looking for an apology, or more broadly even remorse or contrition. As the best infidelity research points out, more than half the time, this never comes.
I'd be looking instead for an overall commitment to the reconciliation process, for TRUE no-contact, and for respectful and courteous behavior from her (the "no worse than you would treat a stranger" standard mentioned above).
Puppy
Good stuff here... This nonsense of demanding apologies and such just isn't realistic, not to mention contrary to DB strategy guidelines...
I usually stick to MWD unless there's an affair happening... MWD is spot on unless there's infidelity at work, then I think a hardball approach is necessary...
For me an apology would be a complete recommittal to the marriage. It would show in everything that the WAW does, they would take it seriously and give respect and time.
It would be the same as if a good friend of yours got influenced and turned on you putting you in danger, in the end the friend knew they were wrong. If the friend wants to recommit to the friendship, it would show in transparency, his attitude and respect toward you. None of us want anyone to grovel.
Apologies and rebuilding the marriage come LATER
Putting away the knives, implicitly declaring a "ceasefire" and trying to act like adults is the first few steps
Yes, courtesy, please, thank you, no name calling, trying to use language like an adult, DESPITE how you may FEEL.
A person can be furuious but still offer up a please and thank you... and over time it DOES sneak into the brain and warm the relationship...
I am onside with pupper here, end the divorce proceedings, act civil, etc... That's best after an affair has just ended or is fizzling out due to final showdown etc... Being wreckless and demanding apologies at this stage will just invite the war to start all over again...
I am not looking fro an apology but rather progress. I want to rebuild a relationship, a friendship with my W. I WANT TO BE THE NEW OM. Leave the old me for the new me.
I think we are at the point where we are establishing a respectful level of communication. Yes she still expresses resentment from the past at times but we exchange the "thank you" and "your welcome" and I feel it is progressing more just in the past few days.
The whole at the park, at the zoo, games here, bike ride there is all who we were before our sitch started. That is just us and is some instance what we wanted to be...
I'm not saying it's easy, Sandi -- in fact, I know from my wife's own experience that it's NOT -- but I do think that "courteous and respectful behavior toward your betrayed spouse," coupled with a commitment to at least END THE DIVORCE PLANS, is a pretty fair MINIMUM standard at this stage, don't you?
I think it'll be another 6-12 months before OIN gets his emotional needs met in any significant way from his wife, don't get me wrong. But it needs to START with the above, in my opinion, and I don't think it's unrealistic -- or unfair -- whatsoever.
Oh, absolutely. I was agreeing with what you said before. Sorry if I wasn't clear about that. I "do" believe that good behavior must be the first step b/c people "can" behave well....even if they don't have the right feelings yet. But as long as a couple shows disrespectful behavior, then only
bad will come forth from that.
No, it is not easy for either person. I guess the message I try to get through to the LBH is that he wants her to change back to how it used to be....and do it right now (snap). She just can't, and if she
did seem to change that quickly or easily, I would think something was still stinking (if you know what I mean) and she was simply putting on a show......
not an effort.
Lotus, yes if there is no communication then there are serious, serious complications. That was the birth of my M problems....so I understand that completely. Even in trying to talk to work things out, there were few words spoken from my H...and I'm sure that is one reason it took a long time for me to get through some of my personal cr@p.....but maybe that's just "me" in my stitch. In other cases, the LBS may want to talk too much....IDK. But I agree that sweeping it under the rug never solves anything.
Yes, OIN and his wife should talk... But NOT YET.. IT's too soon...
And demanding an apology is NOT how to start that conversation...
Keep doin what you're doin OIN... avoid bad turns like the plague, that's more important than the good days is avoiding the bad.. you are checking yourself, that's good.. keep that up...
Give your wife a few weeks to process this work stuff... her Sup talk to her yet?
I would expect another blow up... don't get involved... Just be somewhere else if you can.
I agree with the way Allen has expressed his opinion of all of this. And this kind of sums up what I've tried to say:
A person can be furuious but still offer up a please and thank you... and over time it DOES sneak into the brain and warm the relationship...
Exactly. Trying to live under the same roof while being respectul.
But, I don't agree with DLS about the way he sees it:
For me an apology would be a complete recommittal to the marriage. It would show in everything that the WAW does, they would take it seriously and give respect and time.
Then you don't fully understand the deep stuff that the WAW is still going through. Sometimes she says to herself, "Today I decide to end it will OM", the the next day she might be strong enough to say, "Today I decide not to get a D", then the next day she makes another decision. She has a battle raging inside of her and she's trying to do the "right thing" even if her brain and her heart is screaming to do differently. Don't you think that deserves a little bit of credit? That is VERY hard to do when you are despartely unhappy. She is trying to grab ahold of something and pull herself up to where she can say, "Today I decide to live with my H".
But, when the LBH is not satisfied with that and he demands or sits back expecting an apology for her sins.......then that attitude comes across to the WAW loud & clear....and it can interfer with her feelings of remorse. Therefore, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.
It would be the same as if a good friend of yours got influenced and turned on you putting you in danger, in the end the friend knew they were wrong. If the friend wants to recommit to the friendship, it would show in transparency, his attitude and respect toward you. None of us want anyone to grovel.
I don't agree. The intimate, complex relationship between a H & W cannot be compared to someone who is a friend. You don't live with a friend. You are not physically intimate nor share children (and a ton of other reasons). You can apologize easier to a friend than you can your own S in some cases. (However, if your WAW actually put your life in "danger"....then I could understand you expecting an apology for that!)
Ah, isn't it great that we can all share our thoughts?
I'd be looking instead for an overall commitment to the reconciliation process, for TRUE no-contact, and for respectful and courteous behavior from her
To be honest, I did not realize just how important an apology from the WAW was until I began reading the post from LBH's. Sadly, I think that is almost the last stage for her.
You see, the WAW blames her H for much of the reason why she did what she did (turning to OM, etc.) so IMHO, she doesn't feel that he deserves an apology from her. Frankly, I was stunned and had some very ugly feelings toward my H when he told me that I had not even apologized to him. I looked over at him setting there and all I could see was a self-righteous do-gooder who had a lot of people fooled. I almost hated him. He never apologized to "me" for the years & years of emotional neglect (amoung a ton of other things) and never admitted he had done anything to contribute to the breakdown of our M.
I remember telling him that I was working to reach the point of being willing "to be willing" and for him not to push it. It was all I could do just to make the decision to drop the EA and no farther contact with OM. The grieving would last for months and my resentment toward my H would continue past the grieving. I had to turn lose of the past and the bitterness I had built. Nothing was going to change the past, but I had no energy to put forth in the MR. That is what my H wanted to see.....me putting a lot of "effort" into working on the M. I thought that was very ironic beings that I had always been the one putting forth that effort.
The "respectful and courteous behavior" is really a milestone for some WAW's and not to be discredited.
The only reason I relate back to my personal stitch is that I wondered if it would help you relate. WAW's have so much in common. I do not condone a WAW in an A, but I understand.
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
Sandi, I love your arguments here.
The only small item I might challenge is the use of the term "heart" when referring to infidelity pulling one back in.. It's not your "heart" or even your emotions.. it's an addiction and your imbalanced and unhealthy brain chemistry pulling you back in... Use of the term "heart" romanticizes things over much... One woudln't use "heart" when referring to a gambling habit, or a hoarding compulsion, or alcoholism.
I love the position about the battle ongoing inside, and I think we CAN see that with OIN's wife here... she needs TIME to emotionally process all of this and get her brain back into a healthy balance...
Demanding things from her isnt' going to solve anything. Serious commitment at THIS TIME is NOT REALISTIC
Courstesy in word is realistic, but not serious commitment... no way is she ready for that right now...
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
If you don't "care" then you have some growing up to do too CK. Caring WHY it happened is important to reconcilliation. If you can't muster enough strength and courage to care then you are headed for trouble.
The entitlement to cheat comes from a messed up brain chemistry AFTER the affair is in place... and the addiction has kicked in...
Simply attacking someone's moral character because of their position during an affair isn't constructive to reconcilliation, or even realistic to the facts.
People get confused, they get vulnerable, they get scared, they get angry... if they run into the wrong person at that time and don't have sufficient education or experience to hold them steady they can fall over the line... By then its too late, the brain's chemistry is rushing 90 miles an hour...
Sorry CK, but condeming someone's moral character for making mistakes when their marriage is in a rough spot isn't solving anything... or even an honest appraisal of what's going on... Sandi's argument still stands in my opinion... And stands much taller than condemnation...
I agree with the way Allen has expressed his opinion of all of this. And this kind of sums up what I've tried to say:
A person can be furuious but still offer up a please and thank you... and over time it DOES sneak into the brain and warm the relationship...
Exactly. Trying to live under the same roof while being respectul.
But, I don't agree with DLS about the way he sees it:
For me an apology would be a complete recommittal to the marriage. It would show in everything that the WAW does, they would take it seriously and give respect and time.
Then you don't fully understand the deep stuff that the WAW is still going through. Sometimes she says to herself, "Today I decide to end it will OM", the the next day she might be strong enough to say, "Today I decide not to get a D", then the next day she makes another decision. She has a battle raging inside of her and she's trying to do the "right thing" even if her brain and her heart is screaming to do differently. Don't you think that deserves a little bit of credit? That is VERY hard to do when you are despartely unhappy. She is trying to grab ahold of something and pull herself up to where she can say, "Today I decide to live with my H".
sandi2, what I did not explain is I know there is a time factor. It took time for the relationship between WAS and LBS to become undone, it will take piece by piece and step by step to go into the new relationship. There are occasions where the WAS might come "running" home and happy to do it. For example: the affair partner turned out to be a murderer, was doing an investigation on them, was raping them, etc. This is not likely or the norm.
But, when the LBH is not satisfied with that and he demands or sits back expecting an apology for her sins.......then that attitude comes across to the WAW loud & clear....and it can interfer with her feelings of remorse. Therefore, you are cutting off your nose to spite your face.
I don't think we can expect grovelling. We can expect that someone learned their lesson, and in time wants to make sure that they convey our value to us. It should show up in the priority the WAS places upon us and the marriage.
It would be the same as if a good friend of yours got influenced and turned on you putting you in danger, in the end the friend knew they were wrong. If the friend wants to recommit to the friendship, it would show in transparency, his attitude and respect toward you. None of us want anyone to grovel.
I don't agree. The intimate, complex relationship between a H & W cannot be compared to someone who is a friend. You don't live with a friend. You are not physically intimate nor share children (and a ton of other reasons). You can apologize easier to a friend than you can your own S in some cases. (However, if your WAW actually put your life in "danger"....then I could understand you expecting an apology for that!)
I was trying to make an analogy outside of marriage, thats the best I can think of. I was trying to show a strong trust based friendship that ended with a deep betrayal. What is messing me up is how we forget our spouse was our friend. Some of our WAS's did put our lives and livelihoods in danger with their actions. Its why a simple "i'm sorry" is not going to cut it. I explained to my current wife, that when I was more on the "player" side of things, I knew of professional OM's who prey'ed on a situation like ours. They are of course going to pleasure themself with your wife, while gaining knowledge on your maritial situation, assets, relationships, business matters, etc. Also sometimes for fun, they would target the husband and play with his life. So if the husband recieved a random act of violence, got shot, got his car stolen - it was a good chance it was the OM or his cronies. Its why I say its not a joke, and why I say if you want to brings harms way to the OM, do it. You never know what he was going to do to you.
Ah, isn't it great that we can all share our thoughts?
So sandi2, was a former WAW. How would a LBH go about regaining his WAW, in that she has a high interest level, high respect, high passion - all that stuff that probably initially brought them together. All of this and also losing the desire to have affairs, because they really don't want to lose LBH?
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
If you don't "care" then you have some growing up to do too CK. Caring WHY it happened is important to reconcilliation. If you can't muster enough strength and courage to care then you are headed for trouble.
The entitlement to cheat comes from a messed up brain chemistry AFTER the affair is in place... and the addiction has kicked in...
Simply attacking someone's moral character because of their position during an affair isn't constructive to reconcilliation, or even realistic to the facts.
People get confused, they get vulnerable, they get scared, they get angry... if they run into the wrong person at that time and don't have sufficient education or experience to hold them steady they can fall over the line... By then its too late, the brain's chemistry is rushing 90 miles an hour...
Sorry CK, but condeming someone's moral character for making mistakes when their marriage is in a rough spot isn't solving anything... or even an honest appraisal of what's going on... Sandi's argument still stands in my opinion... And stands much taller than condemnation...
I'm thankful for sandi2's insights and contributions. I also agree that feelings of entitlement grow during the affair. The WAS might not even have a clue that by starting and continuing in their affair that they are going to basically disenfranchise their spouse.
If you don't "care" then you have some growing up to do too CK. Caring WHY it happened is important to reconcilliation. If you can't muster enough strength and courage to care then you are headed for trouble.
The entitlement to cheat comes from a messed up brain chemistry AFTER the affair is in place... and the addiction has kicked in...
Simply attacking someone's moral character because of their position during an affair isn't constructive to reconcilliation, or even realistic to the facts.
People get confused, they get vulnerable, they get scared, they get angry... if they run into the wrong person at that time and don't have sufficient education or experience to hold them steady they can fall over the line... By then its too late, the brain's chemistry is rushing 90 miles an hour...
Sorry CK, but condeming someone's moral character for making mistakes when their marriage is in a rough spot isn't solving anything... or even an honest appraisal of what's going on... Sandi's argument still stands in my opinion... And stands much taller than condemnation...
Well-said, Allen.
Puppy
Okay, I agree with that.
So sandi2, was a former WAW. How would a LBH go about regaining his WAW, in that she has a high interest level, high respect, high passion - all that stuff that probably initially brought them together. All of this and also losing the desire to have affairs, because they really don't want to lose LBH?
Hey, I am all of those things you've just described in that WAW...
Seriously, if a woman has those qualities, it is even tougher for both people, and I don't mean that in a bad way.
That's kind of like asking me how to go about getting someone to fall in-love with you. Except I believe the second time around is much harder. As I harp all the time, the number one most important thing is that she respect you. Don't worry about sexual attraction or anything else
until she truly respects her man. A lot of the other things will fall into place once the respect has been restored. Along with respect will come admiration for her H. Of course the more damage that's been done........well, you know the answer to that.
I believe the sexual attraction is vital! If it doesn't return in a couple of years, then therapy or a medical doctor is needed. It returns faster for some, but when there is depression or lack of sex hormones....then there can be real problems in the R.
I guess I am very weird compared to most, but I never really thought of my H like so many people refer to their S "as their best friend". I never thought of him that way before we were engaged or even now. I thought of him in terms of my lover/husband......but as a
friend, he stinks! I had to find friendship elsewhere. He didn't have friends he ran around with before or after we M. Maybe he didn't make a good friend with
others, either. He has become a little better since my EA. That really shook him to the core.
It does take so much more time than LBH's realize when they first arrive here on the board. I have been asked how long it took me, but I don't tell, usually, b/c I know it will be so discouraging.
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
If you don't "care" then you have some growing up to do too CK. Caring WHY it happened is important to reconcilliation. If you can't muster enough strength and courage to care then you are headed for trouble.
The entitlement to cheat comes from a messed up brain chemistry AFTER the affair is in place... and the addiction has kicked in...
Simply attacking someone's moral character because of their position during an affair isn't constructive to reconcilliation, or even realistic to the facts.
People get confused, they get vulnerable, they get scared, they get angry... if they run into the wrong person at that time and don't have sufficient education or experience to hold them steady they can fall over the line... By then its too late, the brain's chemistry is rushing 90 miles an hour...
Sorry CK, but condeming someone's moral character for making mistakes when their marriage is in a rough spot isn't solving anything... or even an honest appraisal of what's going on... Sandi's argument still stands in my opinion... And stands much taller than condemnation...
I don't see it that way. We'll have to agree to disagree.
I work in law enforcement so maybe I see everything in black and white. Everyday I deal with people who make choices. I can tell you from my experience that almost all of them, with the exception of the few suffering from mental illness, know what they're doing is wrong. They simply choose to do it anyway. The fact that there may be mitigating circumstances doesn't matter, they had an opportunity to make a choice and they chose the behavior that either benefits them the most or feels the best. To me, cheating si no different. Before this so called "addiction" takes place they make a choice to turn away from their marriage and engage in behavior they know to be inappropriate. So many people seek out some underlying trauma or whatever to justify their spouses infidelity, it helps to try to mitigate the pain. Whatever works for you. In my experience in life and in work, is that some people are just selfish. They will always put their self interest above the well being of others. There is no cause and affect, they're just low quality people.
Interesting CK... It will be even MORE interesting to hear from OIN, as he is a Police Officer and works in law enforcement as well...
Note : The argument that infidelity is an addiction isn't some wild claim. There have been scientific tests done on the brain to compare the brain chemistry of those having an affair with drug addicts, alcoholics etc... The patterns were the same in both samples...
I hear you... And yes I am in no way justifying or excusing the behaviour... I DO think reparations are in order... The reconcilliation process is part of that repair effort... Consider it public service...
My concern is more for the interloping third party.. particularly if they are single... Attacking a marriage that is in trouble is pretty much the same as pouring gasoline on a house fire... I would be the first one in line to lobby for a criminal law against violating a marriage like that...
But I am a bit more understanding when it comes to the wayward spouse.. most of my condemnation goes to the interloper that took advantage of someone at a troubled time.
Consider it the drug addict vs the drug pusher... I am more after the pusher than the addict.
I can forgive the addict, but I DO think the pusher belongs behind bars.
Today I will categorize as a bad day...
This morning dragged. I woke up early to go to court, When I got home W was up and making herself something to eat then she went back up to bed. I went up to the bedroom and changed out of my work uniform and laid down in bed to get in a nap before work tonight, W watched TV. I dosed off and when I woke up W was in the shower and a co-worker of mine was calling me.
After I got dressed and ready to go grocery shopping, W was getting ready as well but I was not sure for what. I walked in the room and said "I am heading to go shopping, did you want to join me" W replied "Yes" and so we went.
W, at times...again, was short with me, not as bad as she was in the past...this is more like she is disinterested or resentful toward me.
There are times where maybe I get too close and W does the pull away thing...Not as haste as she use to but more nonchalantly.
We had some good conversation...
I think I missed some posts here. I didn't see the ones from Canadian Kid or the responses to him about what I had said. So, if OIN will be patient with me, I would like to address some things CK said.
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
I wish I knew your age, b/c that would help me. I certainly don't want to sound as if I am talking down to you or anything like that. I do know how to "respect" people and I want that to show through what I am about to say.
Anyway, I wish you
could understand....but I know you can't b/c your mind is closed to it and b/c you've apparently never been on this side. But I truly want you to know that I never woke up one morning and decided I would have an A. I never....
NEVER felt
entitled to have an A. Why didn't I just get the hell out of my M if it was really that bad? B/c I had not made
plans to cheat. I had not made previous plans to leave my M. Did I make a knowing choice about contact OM? Of course I did. However, in some cases, things are not always as simple as others make it sound.
Have you ever heard how a frog can be boiled alive? I bet you have but in case someone is reading who doesn't know the story... then please bear with me. If you want to boil a frog, you do not place him in hot boiling water b/c he'll jump right out of the pot. Instead, you place him in a pot of lukewarm water and turn the fire on under the pot. You gradually warm the water until it boils. Why doesn't the frog jump out? B/c he did not realize his blood was the same temperture as the water and he was cooked before he knew to save himself.
You refered to me (or WAW's as a whole) in very unflatering terms, CK, and even though I might deserve to hear that...it still hurts. It hurts b/c
that WAW was not who I was before or who I've been since that time. That is not the girl my parents raised or the young lady my H M. She is not the mother of my children. She is not the role model her church members have looked up to her entire adult life.
You see, I use to be
YOU in the form of a female. That's right, I saw things just the way you described in your response to what I had said. I was judgmental and self-righteous. There were no excuses for any sin whatsoever....but cheating...well, that was just plain low-down. Oh, and I'm sure I rejected any idea of giving such a sinner a second chance or even listening to the whys or wherefores of their story.....b/c after all, look back at the before paragraph to see what a "special" person I was. (In case there's doubt...I am being sarcastic here.)
You spoke of strength of character.....well, I actually thought I had exceptional character. My parents had raised me with all the right traits. But then I suppose I must have lost all strength of character, right? Does one lose good character and moral judgment for all eternity if they commit one sin? How about two or more sins? Can they ever gain any purpose in life other than to be considered a cheater and a selfish, low quality human being? Does that mean they have no chance at ever tasting grace and that they might as well burn in the everlasting flames of hell? Tell me CK, if you have a daughter some day who should make this very unwise....and perhaps even desparate choice, what would you pick as her sentence? And since "you" raised her, instilling values in her....would you tell her she is of no worth or purpose.....that you no longer love her? Or, would you cry for what happened and for the pain that had touched everyone concerned? Most of all, would you really feel that she was a low quality human being? I hope not, I really hope not. We never know when that might happen to one of our daughters, so be careful before you speak too harshly b/c she will remember those words.
I can't imagine what you must see in your line of work. If a person could be in law enforcement and not get hard-hearted would seem like a miracle, I suppose. But somehow I don't think that law enforcement has everything to do with how you feel about this issue. I don't think bad of you CK....not at all. I am concerned about you. Anytime a heart is hardened....joy has a very difficult time getting inside. Bitterness......that is what makes a person ugly on the inside, and I hope for your sake that you can get past this.
I do not want you to think that I am making excuses for myself or any WAW b/c I'm not. If you do not like my mentality, that's your choice....and I understand. Remember, I used to be just like you. But the day I messed up, brought my judge's seat crashing down. I believe
that is the day I started to become a "real" human being. And, CK......I have not only
tasted grace, but fed upon it...and I try real hard to pay it forward.
Just before I left for work, I was sitting in bed gathering my things, W walked in room and laid on the bed.
W said to me "I forgot you had work today" and I replied "Yes. Why did you have something planned?" W said "I thought maybe we could take the dog for a walk to the park" I then said "Oh, I would had called off if I knew sooner, I would enjoy going to the park." W then said "It's fine."
I could have still called off but I decided to go to work instead.
After I got to work, I see that my W was on you tube watching videos that deal with break ups and broken hearts such as Taylor swift tear drops on my guitar and a few elvis songs (OM favorite artist btw)
Good Lord... My heart bleeds... AT least she's looking like she's processing an END to that nightmare finally...
I need a little guidance here....
Do I just overlook what she is doing? The searches and the heartbreak?
My W and I have had some good times in the past 5 days. We shared some good moments (it appeared reciprocated) and we created some new memories while at times we'd recollect on old ones.
It is hard to believe the time spent is sincere considering she is still thinking bout OM...
Now my W had not gone on the computer as often since the last blow up. Only after tonight when I decided to go to work rather than take off and spend time with her did she go on the computer and search these songs.
I feel like my W is looking in me for what OM provided and because I don't want to pursue I refrain and hold back from saying and doing a lot of stuff. I think W thinks to herself "he is not meeting my emotional needs, he is not ever going to be abvle to, I miss OM"
I am not sure how to handle all of this, I don't want to push my W away either way....
ok OIN...
1. Your wife needs a time to transition here. It DOES look like she may be headed in the direction of EXITING the OM from her brain... Don't mess with that.. Its a healthy thing for her to finally do... It's like a drug and she is going through withdrawal... OK?
2. It doen'st have to be sincere right now, she just has to make the effort so she CAN SEE that YOU are making an effort.. for a LONG TIME she has been BLOCKING you OUT.. so even though YOU were getting some good practice time in, she wans't allowing any of it in... We aren't after sincerity... we just want her to make the effort... trust that the emotions will gradually over time follow the actions...
3. Keep an eye on her, but don't interfere if she's processing an exit to this affair.. that's what you WANT... don't mess with it
4. LEARN what she likes yes, but she is NOT going to be ready to accept any of your advances or pusuit likely for 12 weeks or more... Just watch and learn about her... Don't mess with the process if its heading in the right direction.. and it sounds like it is.. if you push, you can mess things up...
Again be ready for a blow up from work anytime soon...
you WILL have blow ups still.. they will be LESS OFTEN and they will NOT be as STORMY as before... assuming she is processing an affair exit... which it looks like what she is doing...
I hope so...I hope it is an exit.
I did not want to say this (one of those times snooping does bad) BUT earlier this afternoon before we went shopping, My W was upstairs on the computer. I walked in the room and said "what you up to?" and she closed the laptop. I said "DO you really want me not looking at your screen? what do you have going on there?" She said "you'll see"
Curious to what she was hiding, I looked at the logs and seen she had went onto hallmark website and she created a custom card for Fathers day to me from the dog and it read something like "You are the best dad a dog can have" and on the front, inside were pictures of the dog and one of me and the dog together.
I think I missed some posts here. I didn't see the ones from Canadian Kid or the responses to him about what I had said. So, if OIN will be patient with me, I would like to address some things CK said.
I appreicate Sandi2's willingness to be open and her insight into the mind of the WAW. I am, however; infuriated with this type of thinking. I don't care what has gone on inside a marriage, you don't cheat. If it's really that bad, then get the hell out. The whole WAW's mentality that the marital problems somehow "entitles" her to cheat is disgusting and a sign of someone who is a real low quality human being.. It's not even about your partner, its about having the strength of character to respect and honor yourself. Just my opinion.
I wish I knew your age, b/c that would help me. I certainly don't want to sound as if I am talking down to you or anything like that. I do know how to "respect" people and I want that to show through what I am about to say.
Anyway, I wish you
could understand....but I know you can't b/c your mind is closed to it and b/c you've apparently never been on this side. But I truly want you to know that I never woke up one morning and decided I would have an A. I never....
NEVER felt
entitled to have an A. Why didn't I just get the hell out of my M if it was really that bad? B/c I had not made
plans to cheat. I had not made previous plans to leave my M. Did I make a knowing choice about contact OM? Of course I did. However, in some cases, things are not always as simple as others make it sound.
Have you ever heard how a frog can be boiled alive? I bet you have but in case someone is reading who doesn't know the story... then please bear with me. If you want to boil a frog, you do not place him in hot boiling water b/c he'll jump right out of the pot. Instead, you place him in a pot of lukewarm water and turn the fire on under the pot. You gradually warm the water until it boils. Why doesn't the frog jump out? B/c he did not realize his blood was the same temperture as the water and he was cooked before he knew to save himself.
You refered to me (or WAW's as a whole) in very unflatering terms, CK, and even though I might deserve to hear that...it still hurts. It hurts b/c
that WAW was not who I was before or who I've been since that time. That is not the girl my parents raised or the young lady my H M. She is not the mother of my children. She is not the role model her church members have looked up to her entire adult life.
You see, I use to be
YOU in the form of a female. That's right, I saw things just the way you described in your response to what I had said. I was judgmental and self-righteous. There were no excuses for any sin whatsoever....but cheating...well, that was just plain low-down. Oh, and I'm sure I rejected any idea of giving such a sinner a second chance or even listening to the whys or wherefores of their story.....b/c after all, look back at the before paragraph to see what a "special" person I was. (In case there's doubt...I am being sarcastic here.)
You spoke of strength of character.....well, I actually thought I had exceptional character. My parents had raised me with all the right traits. But then I suppose I must have lost all strength of character, right? Does one lose good character and moral judgment for all eternity if they commit one sin? How about two or more sins? Can they ever gain any purpose in life other than to be considered a cheater and a selfish, low quality human being? Does that mean they have no chance at ever tasting grace and that they might as well burn in the everlasting flames of hell? Tell me CK, if you have a daughter some day who should make this very unwise....and perhaps even desparate choice, what would you pick as her sentence? And since "you" raised her, instilling values in her....would you tell her she is of no worth or purpose.....that you no longer love her? Or, would you cry for what happened and for the pain that had touched everyone concerned? Most of all, would you really feel that she was a low quality human being? I hope not, I really hope not. We never know when that might happen to one of our daughters, so be careful before you speak too harshly b/c she will remember those words.
I can't imagine what you must see in your line of work. If a person could be in law enforcement and not get hard-hearted would seem like a miracle, I suppose. But somehow I don't think that law enforcement has everything to do with how you feel about this issue. I don't think bad of you CK....not at all. I am concerned about you. Anytime a heart is hardened....joy has a very difficult time getting inside. Bitterness......that is what makes a person ugly on the inside, and I hope for your sake that you can get past this.
I do not want you to think that I am making excuses for myself or any WAW b/c I'm not. If you do not like my mentality, that's your choice....and I understand. Remember, I used to be just like you. But the day I messed up, brought my judge's seat crashing down. I believe
that is the day I started to become a "real" human being. And, CK......I have not only
tasted grace, but fed upon it...and I try real hard to pay it forward.
I wasn't attacking you at all so please don't think that. I'm grateful that you're here and willing to let others learn from your situation.
And I have been on your side of the fence. When I was 20 I dated a woman and cheated for at least a year. I knew from the first moment of contact with OW that what i was doing was wrong. I put myself in a position that was inappropriate and I made a choice to cheat because at the time it felt good. I never once blamed my girlfriends lack of attention or our relationship for my choices because they were just that, my choices. There was no DBing, in fact, she never found out. What made me change was getting up one day, looking in the mirror and being ashamed of the person staring back at me. That day I made a choice to stop cheating. I never cheated again.
I'm sure what Allen said is true that an affair creates a biological reaction similar to an addiction. But it still starts with a choice. I believe everyone deserves a chance for redemption but i think that requires at least a minimum amount of self awareness. If WAS's don't see their behavior as wrong, how can they ever facilitate change.
I don't want to sidetrack OIN's thread. Sandi2 and Allen, I appreciate both your point of views.
This sitch has been going on for so long that I have forgotten where we started. Have you asked your wife to go to counseling with you? It seems to me, with the gift of the bicycle and the Father's Day card from the dog, that she is trying in her non-verbal kind of way, to say she is sorry. (Granted to those who want real penance, not to any great depth, just a little gift/card giving kind of sorry.) To say that you and your wife have serious communication problems is an understatement. You could benefit from work on communication within the marriage, if you could find someone to help you with it. Perhaps, if and when you do decide to talk to her about more than shopping or the dog, and if she says that she has changed her mind about leaving, then maybe you could suggest that the two of you go to a marriage counselor and learn techniques for better communication within the marriage.
Lotus, I agree and hope that day does come. My W will not go to counseling. I have not asked her in since the first month of our sitch, we are on month 4 now.
I want to give my W time to get over OM before making any significant attempts to reconciliation. I am just trying to establish a positive relationship with my W and build from there.
Better question OIN... Have YOU found a good family therapist yet for you two to go to?
You should be going to one ahead of her so you know them well... You don't want to introduce your wife to some quack who tells her to leave you...
And they ARE OUT THERE... Buyer beware here...
I think you said you couldn't afford it right now... Not sure... But you will need to do that research...
My fear is that she may open a window to a family therapist for a short time and you won't have one ready before she changes her mind on you...
You want a FT in your pocket ready to draw on at any minute
PS : Yes I agree, give her 8 - 12 weeks.. the OM did a LOT of damage that you have to undo...
Allen,
Yes I did mention finances being an issue. Several pages back I posted links to FT. My concern is and has been that if my W agreed to go to FT that she would open up and once again recall the past and relapse to the mindset she currently has "I'll never forgive you, never forget, therefore never be happy with you"
If she does that, "you can do better".
If she thinks that, why did she buy you the bicycle? It's not that simple. But, as I said earlier, when problems are swept under the rug, they just stay there and fester. Things don't get better by themselves. This article talks about how a person who feels that he/she has been a victim turns into an abuser. Once the cycle is started it is very hard to break.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ange...e-more-not-okay
Allen,
Yes I did mention finances being an issue. Several pages back I posted links to FT. My concern is and has been that if my W agreed to go to FT that she would open up and once again recall the past and relapse to the mindset she currently has "I'll never forgive you, never forget, therefore never be happy with you"
That's not a constructive position and it is something the family therapist is trained to work with... a good one anyways.
You can't NOT go to family therapy simply because you are afraid your wife won't want to cooperate...
If she agrees to go but won't cooperate then she's just wasting her money... and YES... make HER pay for half of it...
If she's willing to spend her money to go someplace and REFUSE to COOPERATE or work on her marriage let her spend her money... YOu can talk to FT about your issues and get something useful out of it.
You really will need to talk to these FT's ahead of your wife anyways... The FT will explain to you how they would handle her stubborness... And if they CAN'T explain it... Find a new FT
I had a long day yesterday...
I did not get out of work till 830 then had to be in court by 9. Was at court till 1130 by the time I got hom and finally in bed my W got home from work...
W was acting kind of odd when she got home. She walked into the bedroom letting out a deep breath I looked at her she glanced at me then looked foward as she was walking and she had a slight smirk on her face...a look as if she knew something I did not.
W then got changed laid in bed with her back to me. I got up and decided to go run an errand...never getting any sleep...
I told my W I am taking the dog for a walk and said she is welcome to join us, she did. We took the dog to a nearby park..
While there my W brings up my health insurance and the fact I will be switching over to a new plan. W then began talking about how she wanted to get corrective eye surgery done along with a couple other things...w is currently not on my health insurance so I found it odd she would start talking as she is or will bed. I just went along with it saying nothing more than "yeah, it would be great to get that procedure done". Thinking to myself is my w now trying to get things out of me before she departs? My w was never such a person but now I am weary...
We eventually walked back home, then drove w's car for a car wash and returned.
Now here something I wanted to ask...should I make the following a big deal?
W was on the computer she goes to youtube she starts searching for a video. Then she ask "what was the name of that song?" But the night before she was on youtube looking at ALL these videos already so she already knew the song title ect she was just playing dumb with me. Should I but concerned she was in a sense being dishonest?
Shortly after I was out I feel to sleep after being up for more than 30 hours
W left work early today again due to a "headache"
She sent me a txt saying "I was looking for you to see if I past you on the way home, did not see you"
Then w called, I missed the call so called her back and she said "just letting you I made it home from work" completely catching me off guard.... She told me about the headache, I suggested she try to relax and had to go since I am at court...
I am wondering is today was the day the talk occured....OM has today off
I am wondering if your wife knows you have been collecting INTEL... That's what it sounds like...
I think it's more like she feels the void of the OM and is looking at something to fill it. She hasn't apologized for her behavior so when someone else comes along she's going to go to him rather than stay with OIN.
Continue with the positives and show her the bright spots of living with you OIN.
I think it's more like she feels the void of the OM and is looking at something to fill it. She hasn't apologized for her behavior so when someone else comes along she's going to go to him rather than stay with OIN.
Continue with the positives and show her the bright spots of living with you OIN.
Mr Bond this has been debated to death already.. WS' VERY RARELY APOLOGIZE for their behaviour explicitly early on... and some never apologize at all...
It's not a realistic expectation to hear an apology at this time...
It follows from that, that the absence of an apology does not mean the WS is pursuant of another affair... All one can reasonably conclude is that they don't want to apologize at this time...
Well huge blow up again...I am so tired of this I feel like just giving in at this point.
I get home from court my w walks downstairs looks at me then tells me an update of FIL GF and I walk out to the kitchen, w pulls from her pocket a phone and asks "what's this?"
I f'd up big time....
This morning I used a house phone in attempts to contact OM/OMW to find out if this had been reported of if they can confirm if W was spoken to...I got no answer. I failed to put the phone back on the receiver and left it in the bathroom...W hit redial and seen the number...
I was honest with her. Told her I was talking to my friend about something and he asked if my W had spoke to me about anything and he said how he overheard my W was going to get a "talking to" by a sup. I told W I was calling OM/OMW to confirm
W said "I want to know who he heard this from" and she demanded I call my friend and find out and I refused. W became upset.
W then started to accuse me of using house phone to call OMW allthe time so she cannot track the phone logs. Then she said how she believes I manipulate the phone logs.
W said how it is dumb that I can talk to omw and she cannit talk to him....I bit. I said how she just does not get it. If she never carried on with om there would be no calls. W started to feed me the friend line again.
I said "friends" don't carry on like you two have. I said "why is it that only you see it as something innocent but everybody else aroind you seen it as how it really was?". W said it does not matter what others thing and we can all think what we want and then she said "he made his decision to work on his marriage"
I expressed briefly how it was not right and in some instances infidelity explaining "friends don't talk on the phone fo hours behind their spouses backs" W then said "I talk to my father on the phone for an hour so I guess I am cheating then too?"
I attempted to explain my rational W played stupid with me. W starte to say how I am hiding things and she has nothing to hide...I was some tempted to bring up all the intel but held back but did bring up the saved messages on the phone...the song lyrics, poems and quotes and stupidly said "sorry he broke your heart"
W said she knew I deleted the messages, I admitted I did because it was of a time I was not thinking clearly. W said then I guess u were not thinking clearly for 10 years...and that just because I deleted the messages does not mean anything cause she told her father everything and mentioned about using it against me
I said I did not delete ur other messages intended for him...
She flipped on me....W said "do u everthing u are the one who broke my heart? And killed me inside to the point I will never be able to get over it that u ruined me?" And went on to bring up things from the past
W said "don't u think I have not tried to make it work by doing things with you and trying to be happy but I can't because of all the pain you caused I just can't be happy with you. Just because I like a quote does not mean it has to exactly apply to my life. Do you ever think that one day I hope to be in a fairy tale relationship. I use to think you were everything but not anymore I realize that I cannot be happy with you "
I said "I did not take our interactions as an attempt to reconcile, I did not know you even considered the thought"
W said " that because I am doing it the only way I know how to, the steps I need to take not the one those rediculous books you read suggest.". She mist had found my books...so I said
"Those books have helped me ou greatly and provided a better understanding on how to do things a healthy way"
W said "good pat yourself on the backn make someone else happy"
I said "my knowldge is you are onlytrying to co exist"
W brought up 10 years and what I put her through that she will never forget and she'll never be happy. That she knows how it really was with other male and I can think whatever I want ect....
Just 20 of pure chaos that I tried to walk away from but bit...I screwed up again W does not trust me and can careless if I can trust her because I can "think whatever I want"
Should I just come clean and tell her what I know or let her play dumb with me?
I am tired of holding onto hope when there is none and everytime I thonk there is progress I shoot myself in the foot and I hjave to start all over again...it is taking its toll on the both of us and I am sure she thinks it is not worth saving
I had left the house not saying anything to her
I am leaving a lot out...just cannot recall everything said right now
Well huge blow up again...I am so tired of this I feel like just giving in at this point.
I get home from court my w walks downstairs looks at me then tells me an update of FIL GF and I walk out to the kitchen, w pulls from her pocket a phone and asks "what's this?"
I f'd up big time....
This morning I used a house phone in attempts to contact OM/OMW to find out if this had been reported of if they can confirm if W was spoken to...I got no answer. I failed to put the phone back on the receiver and left it in the bathroom...W hit redial and seen the number...
I was honest with her. Told her I was talking to my friend about something and he asked if my W had spoke to me about anything and he said how he overheard my W was going to get a "talking to" by a sup. I told W I was calling OM/OMW to confirm
W said "I want to know who he heard this from" and she demanded I call my friend and find out and I refused. W became upset.
W then started to accuse me of using house phone to call OMW allthe time so she cannot track the phone logs. Then she said how she believes I manipulate the phone logs.
W said how it is dumb that I can talk to omw and she cannit talk to him....I bit. I said how she just does not get it. If she never carried on with om there would be no calls. W started to feed me the friend line again.
I said "friends" don't carry on like you two have. I said "why is it that only you see it as something innocent but everybody else aroind you seen it as how it really was?". W said it does not matter what others thing and we can all think what we want and then she said "he made his decision to work on his marriage"
I expressed briefly how it was not right and in some instances infidelity explaining "friends don't talk on the phone fo hours behind their spouses backs" W then said "I talk to my father on the phone for an hour so I guess I am cheating then too?"
I attempted to explain my rational W played stupid with me. W starte to say how I am hiding things and she has nothing to hide...I was some tempted to bring up all the intel but held back but did bring up the saved messages on the phone...the song lyrics, poems and quotes and stupidly said "sorry he broke your heart"
W said she knew I deleted the messages, I admitted I did because it was of a time I was not thinking clearly. W said then I guess u were not thinking clearly for 10 years...and that just because I deleted the messages does not mean anything cause she told her father everything and mentioned about using it against me
I said I did not delete ur other messages intended for him...
She flipped on me....W said "do u everthing u are the one who broke my heart? And killed me inside to the point I will never be able to get over it that u ruined me?" And went on to bring up things from the past
W said "don't u think I have not tried to make it work by doing things with you and trying to be happy but I can't because of all the pain you caused I just can't be happy with you. Just because I like a quote does not mean it has to exactly apply to my life. Do you ever think that one day I hope to be in a fairy tale relationship. I use to think you were everything but not anymore I realize that I cannot be happy with you "
I said "I did not take our interactions as an attempt to reconcile, I did not know you even considered the thought"
W said " that because I am doing it the only way I know how to, the steps I need to take not the one those rediculous books you read suggest.". She mist had found my books...so I said
"Those books have helped me ou greatly and provided a better understanding on how to do things a healthy way"
W said "good pat yourself on the backn make someone else happy"
I said "my knowldge is you are onlytrying to co exist"
W brought up 10 years and what I put her through that she will never forget and she'll never be happy. That she knows how it really was with other male and I can think whatever I want ect....
Just 20 of pure chaos that I tried to walk away from but bit...I screwed up again W does not trust me and can careless if I can trust her because I can "think whatever I want"
Should I just come clean and tell her what I know or let her play dumb with me?
I am tired of holding onto hope when there is none and everytime I thonk there is progress I shoot myself in the foot and I hjave to start all over again...it is taking its toll on the both of us and I am sure she thinks it is not worth saving
I had left the house not saying anything to her
I am leaving a lot out...just cannot recall everything said right now
OfficerInNeed, this sounds bad. Thing these women don't understand, and I guess OW's don't understand. They can think what they want to. I am basically a victim of some of my wifes female friends enabling a bunch of bad behaviors that makes it nearly impossible for me to be around her. Another of my brothers who did used to specialize in married women would say something to them like "Well your husband is a good provider, but not a good friend". He would then go onto say "Why do you care what he thinks". It was part of a process to get the wife to stop thinking about whats important for her husband, in the end she turns on him.
I think your wife from her communication felt "free" in the other situation. While around you, she may not feel it. Maybe she feels that she has to watch what she does, even though I hear from you its a bunch of bad behaviors and attitudes. She's probably going to have to run into more problems in life before she can appreciate a man such as yourself.
I'm also surprised she has not tested out intimacy even one time with you yet, its been so many weeks. I guess she was in love with the OM, and didn't want to cheat on him.
I wish you luck, and like I said, your sitch is better than most of ours.
AllenA,
Again. I did not say the apology comes right away. I'm saying that somewhere down the line in order for there to be a successful R, there is an apology. Every successful thread and book shows it.
OIN is not close to it. I was just making a comment.
OIN,
Sorry to hear about the turn of events. But you backslid and it happens to everyone. As hard as it is, you have to let the stuff about the OM go. Even if by trying to find out if the supervisor talked to your W.
You can't "fix" this. Let it die on it's own.
You can do this. If you want to continue your M, then be strong.
The "apology" could be in the form of actions.
DLS, I agree, I think the apology IS coming in that form now with the bicycle etc...
I don't even know who brought it up initially but this idea of expecting apologies is ridiculous right now... It's just going to mess things up worse looking for an apology or thinking that way.
OIN, there will be bad days.
To be honest, it sounds like you two both had things to get off your chest... And neither of you are in aplace where they can come out gently so they come out as a shout instead.
There will be bad days, I WARNED you a blow up was coming... and there will be more... but FEWER than before and not as bad usually.
1. Don't argue with your wife, just give her space, STOP BITING as you put it and let it GO
2. Stop romanticizing her affair... talking about him "breaking her heart" just sentimentalizes her nonsense behaviour.
3. The HUGE RED LIGHT i heard was her talking about a fairytale life with you being impossible... Fairytale lives ARE IMPOSSIBLE PERIOD.. that's why they are FAIRY TALES... A Fairy Tale is a story about soemthing that ISN'T TRUE
YOur wife is still romanticizing marriage WAY TOO MUCH and when reality hits.. she thinks YOU are the problem. Your wife needs marriage education, she has unreasonable expectations of marriage... Check out MWD's ten marriage myths... your wife likely is falling for many of them.
4. She was snooping into the books you got as I thought she would... that's good..
She's got a lot of rage about work and the OM and her embarassment right now... do NOT volunteer to be the punching bag for that... stay OUT of it... let her be angry at someone else, you do NOT want to create painful memories for her.
You are doing well here despite what you may think. You need to STOP ARGUING and stop taking her bait.. she baits you and you fall for it... WALK AWAY
TELL HER outright..
"You are baiting me for an argument here and I don't want one... I am not being rude, I just don't want a fight so I am going to go away now and calm myself down ok?"
And you walk away...
Don't say it mean or accusingly or even loudly, say it calmly, just tell her that she's inviting an argument and you don't want to fight... and walk away... Don't wait for her to reply or anything.. say what i wrote above and slowly walk away...
I think when its good we'll just know, and it will take time, alot of time. For me it would be after sufficient time had past and the wife had through her actions, and priorities indicated I am the number one man in her life and that she does not have enough time to contribute to any more affairs or anything else going against the marriage. That nearly in every facet of life that they are thinking about their marriage as a priority, in their actions and interactions. I believe after sufficient time has past where the relationship partner has put the relationship as number one, that the pain of the past will eventually fall off. Kinda like bad credit on a credit report.
So it may be after 2 or 3 years of good, things are pretty good and after 7 years of good they may be pristine, that the pain of the past would be a small and distant memory.
OIN, your wife needs a FT to teach her this :
MYTH #2: A GREAT RELATIONSHIP REQUIRES A GREAT ROMANCE
- Yes, your life with your partner should include plenty of romance. But don't kid yourself and expect an unrealistic Hollywood fairytale. The truth is that in the real world, being in love is not like falling in love.
- Falling in love is only the first stage of love. It's impossible to remain in that stage. A mature relationship will shift from dizzying infatuation to a deeper, more secure love.
- Don't make the common mistake of thinking that when the initial wild passion fades you aren't in love anymore. The answer is not to start a new relationship so you can recapture that emotional high with someone else. The answer is to learn how to move on to the next stages of love for a different but richer experience.
I know she refuses therapy.. She DID admit she tried to fix things "the only way she knows how". If that comes up again you tell her outright that's what marriage therapy does.. It TEACHES you how to be married PROPERLY... Its like any other class in school..unfortunatley schools don't teach Marriage Classes.. They seem to think chemistry, auto shop, and foreign languages are more important...
What started this all is W found the phone and seen I called OMW...I brought this on myself. I did not get through to OMW/OM but I did want to find out if the conversation happened. It was a stupid move on my part.
Now W thinks every time I go next door I am using the phone to make calls and that I have been making calls all along. Somehow the phone number of OMW/OW was saved into the phone's directory (I swear I did not do that, don't know how it happened) and now I am being blamed for that too and W does not believe what I have to say.
I should had never made the call and we would not be in this mess.
I said somethings to my W about OM maybe I should not had. I called her out on her feelings for him and said she was being dishonest. It just kills me when she tells me "I have nothing to hide" when she is hiding a lot.
Then my W wanted to make it as if though those poems and song lyrics may have been meant for me. NO, they were NOT.
I am not sure how to proceed from here.
W thinks I am a liar. W thinks I have been lying all along. W saying she can't trust me. W saying she tried to make it work but cannot be happy so she is done trying.
OIN,
Stop thinking that you know what your W thinks. It's what she believes right now. It doesn't mean that it won't/can't change later. Last week you were saying the same things, yet once you started loosening up, she responded much more positively. Your actions are having an effect but you have to understand that you can't control the sitch.
If you found out that she was talked to by the supervisor, what then? What would you have done? Probably nothing.
If you go next door and she starts accusing you of calling the OMW, then tell her she can come if she likes, then leave without waiting for an answer. Let her paranoia feed on itself. You don't need to feed it yourself.
1. Your wife is still in wayward mode... You haven't beat that yet, you have just driven the affair away... further away...
2. Your wife thinks you are a liar partly because SHE is a liar. When people lie they get paranoid and start thinking everyone lies to them too.. its a psychological response
3. Don't expect your wife to tell you the truth fully yet
4. Don't talk about her feelings for OM, it just brings them BACK TO HER AGAIN... STOP ROMANTICIZING her affair talking about her "feelings for him" and how he "broke her heart".. you sound like HER... stop that
5. Give your wife your phone then if she doenst trust you.. you know how to build trust.
6. Your wife is brainwashing you into thinking SHE is trustworthy and that YOU making a CALL is BAD.. its NOT.. you are just following up and its acceptable right now... I would tell her to get used to it for the next six months and it will get more gradual over time... your WIFE has this self-righteous attitude that SHE is INNOCENT and YOu have no business checking up on her... She's Full of it.
I would maintain that
"I know you two weren't "just talking" and i know you two weren't "just friends"... everyone knows it.. ok?"
"I am going to call OMW sometimes to keep everything in the OPEN.. when people engage in TALK that is DESTRUCTIVE to their MARRIAGE BEHIND their spouses BACK it IS FAIR to CONFRONT THAT ACTIVITY.. and I WILL do that... If I go BEHIND YOUR BACK to do HARM to our MARRIAGE you can call me on that too... I would appreciate it, it will help me fly straighter and be fair to you... but this is RECIPROCAL... I will call OMW to check in on her marriage to make sure its getting better.. Its' the ADULT thing to do... YOU talking to her Husband BEHIND HER BACK was doing DAMAGE...damage I am trying to repair... ok?"
and walk away
And walk away
4. Don't talk about her feelings for OM, it just brings them BACK TO HER AGAIN... STOP ROMANTICIZING her affair talking about her "feelings for him" and how he "broke her heart".. you sound like HER... stop that
I will stop it. I said it in a sarcastic tone and implicating I know she is lying.
[quote[\]"I am going to call OMW sometimes to keep everything in the OPEN.. when people engage in TALK that is DESTRUCTIVE to their MARRIAGE BEHIND their spouses BACK it IS FAIR to CONFRONT THAT ACTIVITY.. and I WILL do that... If I go BEHIND YOUR BACK to do HARM to our MARRIAGE you can call me on that too... I would appreciate it, it will help me fly straighter and be fair to you... but this is RECIPROCAL... I will call OMW to check in on her marriage to make sure its getting better.. Its' the ADULT thing to do... YOU talking to her Husband BEHIND HER BACK was doing DAMAGE...damage I am trying to repair... ok?"[/quote]
OMW and OM said over the phone that all communication must and will stop. OMW and I are protecting ourselves as well as our marriages at the same time my W and OM are not aware of this talk going on. Their rational is/would be "If they can do it so can we." OM doe snot OMW talking to me period, he want to put this all in behind them. For him it is that easy, as they work on their marriage my W is still hooked and we live in misery.
Just so I am clear, I was not using my cellphone but rather my neighbors home phone that I accidentally left on the counter, so giving my W my cell phone will not do anything for her because she now assumes I am calling them form another phone anyway.
How is your neighbour's relationship with your wife?
What you can do maybe is
1. You DO need to find a way to express the difference between the calls that YOU and OMW make and the calls that SHE and OM make so she can absorb that. She may realize there is a difference, but wording it simple and precise helps a lot.
2. Maybe you can have your neighbour make an agreement with her that you won't be calling OMW from neighbours phone. If the three of you are there she can trust you. Your neighbour just has to make a verbal confirmation to her that he will not allow YOU to use the phone for that call. But YOU do need to make it clear you WILL be calling.
Many spouses OIN want to SWEEP an affair under the rug, they HATE the follow up, the spying, the fact-checking, etc.. They want it all to just dissappear...
Re-read "Other Reassurances" in MWD Divorce Remedy book on pp 211-212.
The fact-checking MUST and WILL continue to PROTECT marriages. I would find a way to word that. Pupster may have a suggestion. But your wife needs to learn that what she and OM were doing cannot be swept away and will be checked up on by you and OMW... Do NOT do it in secret... I would confront her on it and explain WHY it is being done and reassure her it will decrrease over time and will eventually not be done at all... But I would make it crystal clear that she knows it WILL be DONE right NOW... I would NOT try to check up with OMW in secret.. I would make sure she knows you two are following up to protect each other's marraiges...
OM and your wife made a BAD choice and they are going to have to live with that for six months or so...
Just find a way to word it kindly but clearly that this will continue and its NOT a secret. If she doesn't want you using neighbour's phone then use your own phone... Don't hide it.
Read that piece in the book, it may help you find a way to word it or someone here may have suggestions.
You dont want to put it mean and shove it down her throat, you just want her to understand why YOUR calls are ok and hers were NOT... and why YOUR calls will continue for the next while.
I would print out that reassurances piece in DR and send to OMW so she has a good explanation of why this is being done... MWD puts it well in the book I think.
OM needs to get over himself and live with his wife checking up on him for a while too... These two are both a couple of self-righteous children.
It is very common for people who cheat and come back to NOT want it to be discussed, they just want to put it behind them and will LIE to do it... THey will tell you songs they are listening to are for you, etc.. its all BS
These two need to learn they crossed a line and that LINE will be CAREFULLY GUARDED for a while until you and OMW feel safe again.. I would NOT guard it in secret and tip toe around those two on this one...
It is times like these when you can say, "Look, we can't solve this thing ourselves. We need help. Will you go to marriage counseling or Retrouvaille with me and see if we can learn to get along with each other?
And if she says, "No! I'm moving out!" Then tell her to do it already. Because living in limbo is not working. You plan to have a happy marriage with someone. If she is not interested, then she needs to move on, now.
Maybe just put it like :
There's a difference between a phone call to protect or save a marriage, and a phone call to destroy a marriage
You and OM calling one another does damage to your marriage, ours is protecting a marriage.
Yup, I know your wife will likely say :
"Well your calls are destroying our marriage now"
That's GOOD... she's LEARNING.. That would be GREAT if she could come up with that one.
Why?
1. It shows she understands boundaries in marriage MUST be respected for the marriage to thrive
2. It implicitly suggests she WANTS to protect YOUR marriage... what do you think of that?
I don't know if she would reply that way, but it wouldn't be a bad thing if she did ... I would then reply with this :
Yes, you are right, marital boundaries need to be respected by both of us here for this to work... Right NOW the calls will continue. I had to tolerate them for months on end... My calls are protecting a marriage, even if they make you and OM uncomfortable... I DO get that they upset you. They WILL become less often over time and in a few months they will end completely... I DO understand they make you uncomfortable, and I don't like having to call either.. Do you think I ENJOY having to call another man's wife to find out that my wife is pursuing her husband? I don't. I can make these calls in front of you if that would make you feel better, but I am going to protect OMW marriage if I can. She needs reassurance from us that I don't konw if any calls and that you aren't calling her Husband.. it makes HER feel SAFE... SHE didn't deserve any of this... She is entitled to as much comfort as we are isn't she?
It will stop soon enough, but not yet... OMW and I are trying to protect two marriages here OK? Please try to understand that. It will end, I don't like having to call either. And no one else knows I am calling... Just you and those two.
Does the OMW call you? It seems like you've been doing most of the calling. The OM wants to leave it all behind him because he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. And now of course he wants to "save his marriage". Male cheaters especially are funny that way. My W's boss kicked her to the curb when I found out about them.
No omw does not call me unless something important comes up and in that case my W will be on the other end with me listening.
I did not want me W to know that we had this contact because she would feel it justified her talking to om and also would thing it is me being controlling. I worded this for her so many times in the past about "protecting our marriage" and "its not the same" and the responses I get "there is no marriage" and "we are just friends" noone or anything can convince her otherwisesn she believes what she believes and that is it.
So I made the decision do to what I had to do to protect our marriage without my W knowing. I slipped up today bit to be honest I am tired of it.
Maybe I should just lay it out there like lotus suggest.
To us it is an affair but to her it was jist a friendship and she is set on thinking that. The only way I can ever prove to her we know its more than that is buy putting the facts out there but I am not willing to expose my intel gathering.
NEVER REVEAL THE SOURCE(S) OF YOUR INTEL.
Puppy
That's right. Just let it go and detach. You're driving yourself crazy trying to figure out what she thinks. Concentrate on yourself.
Maybe I should just lay it out there like lotus suggest.
To us it is an affair but to her it was just a friendship and she is set on thinking that. The only way I can ever prove to her we know its more than that is buy putting the facts out there but I am not willing to expose my intel gathering.
OIN MWD says this in her book, but I will put it more explicitly here for you :
What your wife SAYS to YOU, is NOT the SAME as what SHE is THINKING to HERSELF or saying to OM
You seem to think that your wife actually BELIEVES she wasn't having an affair and wasn't cheating... Sorry, but I don't buy that for a second. I am positive your wife knew what she was doing and she KNOWS its not "just friends"
YOU can't get her to ADMIT that TO YOU, but she IS thinking it and KNOWS IT.
You don't NEED to CONVINCE her, you just need her to KNOW that YOU KNOW... which you ARE DOING...
Don't think for a second that her protesting that she and OM are just friends has anything to do with what she knows or believes.. It doens't.. its a WALL she's putting up to protect her reputation and to save face...
your wife does NOT want to ACNKNOWLEDGE right NOW that she WAS cheating... It has NOTHING to DO with what she BELIEVES... Your wife knows' she was cheating... She's no fool and she knows you aren't.. But right now, she is determined to save face and keep that wall up...
THe PROBLEM is that you THINK she BELIEVES that crap.. she does NOT believe she was just friends... She has convinced you she's deluded and believes her lies... she does NOT.
THe ONLY LIE she believes to be true right now is that OM and her had a potential future. That I think she is childish and deluded enough to believe.
You do NOT need to PROVE to her it was an affair. You just need to TELL her
We BOTH KNOW it was MORE than that. I am not going to argue, but I am no fool and neither is the rest of your workplace. Everyone knows what was happening. It's sad that it happened in the first place. People got hurt and trust got damaged in both our home and in OMW's home. I am no fool. I am man enough to ignore it, but I am also intelligent enough to know what was happening. I do NOT want to argue about it at all right now... Just KNOW that I KNOW...And walk away...
That gives your wife some face while you maintain your own dignity.
The problem is
a. She won't admit the truth
b. You refuse to be indignified with obvious lies
So just tell her
I know. Leave it for now, I do NOT need to prove it to you and you don't need to argue either.. We BOTH KNOW... Lets just leave it ALONE for now... I, unlike your workplace refuse to make it an issue. I am calling OMW to protect marriages and that's IT. I know what you two were up to and you know you two weren't just socializing either... Lets not dig a grave for ourselves digging evidence out of each other. That will just make us miserable... I know, you know, lets move on and just let it Go... in a few months this will be gone and we can forget about the whole painful thing. I got hurt, YOU got hurt... OMW got hurt... It's sad, but it happens. Let's not fight about it ok?
You see what I am doing here is giving HER some face, and you so no one has to feel humiliated. OIN, right now your wife feels humliated. This is part of why she won't admit the affair. You trying to prove she was cheating is just going to bring up her defenses. Let it GO.
You CAN let it GO and let her have her dignity AND you have yours. You just tell her you KNOW, it happens, move on... She realizes you aren't trying to villify her and then feels safer, and YOU don't feel like she thinks you are a fool.
It allows both of you to walk away with some dignity with minimal damage.
That is my point. If I say to W "I am calling OMW to make protect our marriage" W will say "there is no marriage to protect" , "There is nothing going on, it was a friend of the opposite sex so that means something has to be going on? whatever think what you want"
So the only way I can justify calling OMW is to prove I know something is going on and the sacrifice of that will be exposing how I gather intel and I don't want to that therefore I cannot tell W that I will talk to OMW.
Right now and all day since this has occurred W has slept and gave me the silent treatment. Told her I was leaving and taking the dog with me, she just looked at me then closed her eyes again.
If there was any chance I think today killed it. For the first time since our sitch began she verbally admitted there was a chance and she was trying, now that she exposed some feelings I know she will now reconsider and push for separation. She said she has tried and still cannot be happy.
I wanted to say to her, that if she was committed to reconcile we can take the necessary steps to building a better relationship. I wanted to tell her that it took a lot for our marriage and relationship to get to this point and it will take a lot of work to improving it.
W had said during all this earlier when she mentioned she was trying but still not finding happiness that she never said anything because she did not want me to know she was vulnerable, I wanted to say "There is no reason to be vulnerable, I can understand if you have doubts or concerns about the process of reconciliation but the process will be quicker and healthier if we communicated to each other and worked together on this"
I just can't imagine her actually wanting to work on our marriage so soon after the last blow up.
Also, I spoke with my friend today. HE said he is about 50% sure they spoke yesterday. He said my W was down in training area and seen OM coming up from the stairway that leads to the training area and from what my friend told me, OM had no reason to be down there. He said he is not 100% sure that is the case but he will try to find out and let me know.
Also he said he has heard nothing about any managers being notified about the situation or about my W getting pulled aside and getting the talking to by any manager. SO now I am starting to wonder if OM is BSing again.
Maybe I should just lay it out there like lotus suggest.
To us it is an affair but to her it was just a friendship and she is set on thinking that. The only way I can ever prove to her we know its more than that is buy putting the facts out there but I am not willing to expose my intel gathering.
OIN MWD says this in her book, but I will put it more explicitly here for you :
What your wife SAYS to YOU, is NOT the SAME as what SHE is THINKING to HERSELF or saying to OM
You seem to think that your wife actually BELIEVES she wasn't having an affair and wasn't cheating... Sorry, but I don't buy that for a second. I am positive your wife knew what she was doing and she KNOWS its not "just friends"
YOU can't get her to ADMIT that TO YOU, but she IS thinking it and KNOWS IT.
You don't NEED to CONVINCE her, you just need her to KNOW that YOU KNOW... which you ARE DOING...
Don't think for a second that her protesting that she and OM are just friends has anything to do with what she knows or believes.. It doens't.. its a WALL she's putting up to protect her reputation and to save face...
your wife does NOT want to ACNKNOWLEDGE right NOW that she WAS cheating... It has NOTHING to DO with what she BELIEVES... Your wife knows' she was cheating... She's no fool and she knows you aren't.. But right now, she is determined to save face and keep that wall up...
THe PROBLEM is that you THINK she BELIEVES that crap.. she does NOT believe she was just friends... She has convinced you she's deluded and believes her lies... she does NOT.
THe ONLY LIE she believes to be true right now is that OM and her had a potential future. That I think she is childish and deluded enough to believe.
You do NOT need to PROVE to her it was an affair. You just need to TELL her
We BOTH KNOW it was MORE than that. I am not going to argue, but I am no fool and neither is the rest of your workplace. Everyone knows what was happening. It's sad that it happened in the first place. People got hurt and trust got damaged in both our home and in OMW's home. I am no fool. I am man enough to ignore it, but I am also intelligent enough to know what was happening. I do NOT want to argue about it at all right now... Just KNOW that I KNOW...And walk away...
That gives your wife some face while you maintain your own dignity.
The problem is
a. She won't admit the truth
b. You refuse to be indignified with obvious lies
So just tell her
I know. Leave it for now, I do NOT need to prove it to you and you don't need to argue either.. We BOTH KNOW... Lets just leave it ALONE for now... I, unlike your workplace refuse to make it an issue. I am calling OMW to protect marriages and that's IT. I know what you two were up to and you know you two weren't just socializing either... Lets not dig a grave for ourselves digging evidence out of each other. That will just make us miserable... I know, you know, lets move on and just let it Go... in a few months this will be gone and we can forget about the whole painful thing. I got hurt, YOU got hurt... OMW got hurt... It's sad, but it happens. Let's not fight about it ok?
You see what I am doing here is giving HER some face, and you so no one has to feel humiliated. OIN, right now your wife feels humliated. This is part of why she won't admit the affair. You trying to prove she was cheating is just going to bring up her defenses. Let it GO.
You CAN let it GO and let her have her dignity AND you have yours. You just tell her you KNOW, it happens, move on... She realizes you aren't trying to villify her and then feels safer, and YOU don't feel like she thinks you are a fool.
It allows both of you to walk away with some dignity with minimal damage.
DO I bring this up even if the discussion has ended. DO I just walk up to her and tell her I need to talk to her about this?
During our conversation earlier I said things along those lines. I told her "I know more about what is going on than you think, and to me it is not just a friend, it was more than that" she said "think what you want, I know what it was"
I also said "These poems, lyrics, quotes I know they are intended for him" she said "Do you ever think they were intended for you? just because something does not exactly match the situation does not mean it does not apply" I said "to be honest NO, I don't think for one minute they had to do with us."
Maybe I should just lay it out there like lotus suggest.
To us it is an affair but to her it was just a friendship and she is set on thinking that. The only way I can ever prove to her we know its more than that is buy putting the facts out there but I am not willing to expose my intel gathering.
OIN MWD says this in her book, but I will put it more explicitly here for you :
What your wife SAYS to YOU, is NOT the SAME as what SHE is THINKING to HERSELF or saying to OM
You seem to think that your wife actually BELIEVES she wasn't having an affair and wasn't cheating... Sorry, but I don't buy that for a second. I am positive your wife knew what she was doing and she KNOWS its not "just friends"
YOU can't get her to ADMIT that TO YOU, but she IS thinking it and KNOWS IT.
You don't NEED to CONVINCE her, you just need her to KNOW that YOU KNOW... which you ARE DOING...
Don't think for a second that her protesting that she and OM are just friends has anything to do with what she knows or believes.. It doens't.. its a WALL she's putting up to protect her reputation and to save face...
your wife does NOT want to ACNKNOWLEDGE right NOW that she WAS cheating... It has NOTHING to DO with what she BELIEVES... Your wife knows' she was cheating... She's no fool and she knows you aren't.. But right now, she is determined to save face and keep that wall up...
THe PROBLEM is that you THINK she BELIEVES that crap.. she does NOT believe she was just friends... She has convinced you she's deluded and believes her lies... she does NOT.
THe ONLY LIE she believes to be true right now is that OM and her had a potential future. That I think she is childish and deluded enough to believe.
You do NOT need to PROVE to her it was an affair. You just need to TELL her
We BOTH KNOW it was MORE than that. I am not going to argue, but I am no fool and neither is the rest of your workplace. Everyone knows what was happening. It's sad that it happened in the first place. People got hurt and trust got damaged in both our home and in OMW's home. I am no fool. I am man enough to ignore it, but I am also intelligent enough to know what was happening. I do NOT want to argue about it at all right now... Just KNOW that I KNOW...And walk away...
That gives your wife some face while you maintain your own dignity.
The problem is
a. She won't admit the truth
b. You refuse to be indignified with obvious lies
So just tell her
I know. Leave it for now, I do NOT need to prove it to you and you don't need to argue either.. We BOTH KNOW... Lets just leave it ALONE for now... I, unlike your workplace refuse to make it an issue. I am calling OMW to protect marriages and that's IT. I know what you two were up to and you know you two weren't just socializing either... Lets not dig a grave for ourselves digging evidence out of each other. That will just make us miserable... I know, you know, lets move on and just let it Go... in a few months this will be gone and we can forget about the whole painful thing. I got hurt, YOU got hurt... OMW got hurt... It's sad, but it happens. Let's not fight about it ok?
You see what I am doing here is giving HER some face, and you so no one has to feel humiliated. OIN, right now your wife feels humliated. This is part of why she won't admit the affair. You trying to prove she was cheating is just going to bring up her defenses. Let it GO.
You CAN let it GO and let her have her dignity AND you have yours. You just tell her you KNOW, it happens, move on... She realizes you aren't trying to villify her and then feels safer, and YOU don't feel like she thinks you are a fool.
You tell her that you know and do NOT engage any wall she puts up.
Here's your destructive dynamic :
a. You challenge your wife's claims
b. Your wife puts up her defenses (manifested as lies and claims of innocence)
c. You try to argue a case with evidence
d. Your wife accuses you of spying, controlling, and secret-keeping
e. You claim you were trying to protect your marriage
You both end up frustrated and humiliated
1. She humiliates you with lies
2. You humiliate her with the truth
Just tell her you know, and then BACK OFF, give her some ROOM to preserve some dignity... She won't admit it right now, but you CAN maintain you KNOW and leave it...
It allows both of you to walk away with some dignity with minimal damage.
YOU : I KNOW you two weren't just socializing
WIFE : We're just friends, everyone is making a big deal out of nothing
What is going on in your wife's HEAD :
a. Wow, he does know what I was doing
b. I feel like a fool; I got lied to by OM, and I got caught by my husband too
c. Now he won't trust me, he didn't before, but now I just proved to him I'm not trustworthy
d. I have made a huge mess here and it's all my fault
e. Him accusing me of cheating makes feel so bad about myself
f. I am going to make him stop - how can I get him to stop?
g. I will just tell him we we were friends... That's it
Trust me, your wife's got all this in her head and more. Just tell her you know, GENTLY, and then tell her you are doing the work with OMW to repair damage so you and she can put it
behind you.
You need to STOP taking what she SAYS ... SERIOIUSLY.. that's one of your HUGEST mistakes in this whole mess is when she says something, YOU TAKE IT IN... you let it get in and beat you up and make you feel worthless and angry.
You gotta step BACK and let it Go
What are you going to do when your kids one day yell at you that you are a horrible father because you grounded them for two weeks?
What are you gonna do when your kids attack you verbally for you parenting them? And they WILL, kids do that...
PARENTS IGNORE IT and dont' take it to HEART
YOU need to learn to do that.
What your wife says right now has nothing much at all to do with what she's thinking... There is a world of subtext going on that you need to learn to hear and work with WITHOUT the bad stuff getting to you...
Suit of armor man, that's what you need. An emotional suit of armor.
DO I bring this up even if the discussion has ended. DO I just walk up to her and tell her I need to talk to her about this?
During our conversation earlier I said things along those lines. I told her "I know more about what is going on than you think, and to me it is not just a friend, it was more than that" she said "think what you want, I know what it was"
I also said "These poems, lyrics, quotes I know they are intended for him" she said "Do you ever think they were intended for you? just because something does not exactly match the situation does not mean it does not apply" I said "to be honest NO, I don't think for one minute they had to do with us."
Nope
When SHE tries to criticize YOU for calling OMW or anything related...
Note :
What you told her before is an ACCUSATION. The way you write it, you sound like you are accusing her of something underhanded. Yes, what she did WAS underhanded, but she KNOWS that... you do NOT need to SHOVE it in her face.
You just need to GENTLY say "I know and you know that it was a lot more than you want everyone to think...I dont care.. I am doing the work to get it OUT of our home and behind is.. It's not healthy for you, me, or OMW to point fingers or gossip. I am repairing the damage and then I intend to put all of this behind us and hopefully OMW will be doing the same."
What I wrote above is NOT accusing her or gloating in any way that you know her secrets etc... its a gentle explanation of what is in your head and a gentle invitation to work WITH you to get PAST it all...
I assume you shouted what you typed too.. Just stay calm even when she shouts and waves her arms.. think Mr Spock here...
OIN,
I agree with Allen that she tells you one thing thinking she is keeping her secret to herself. She will not reveal her secret to you no matter what you say. It is her one possession from OM. But I have stood in her shoes, and it is one thing to say "I'm leaving" and a whole other thing to do it. So again, I say, it is time to, as my father would say, "poop or get off the pot". If she is going, then go. If she is staying, then get professional help and fix it. No other choices. Sticking around and claiming that you are making her miserable is not an option. Go, or stay and fix it. And yes, she will run crying to her father. If he is any kind of father he will tell her to work it out with her husband.
Unfortunatley Lotus her father is divorced and ENCOURAGES her behaviour... He treats her like an innocent child and texts her sabotage regularly... He's a marriage meddler and poisoning her mind.
I am inclined think a lot of the garbage you get OIN is because of FIL's meddling..I think he's the one teaching her all her bad habits... He's ignorant, childish, and opinionated.. Just like your wife right now.
Look, you need to preserve your dignity, I get that. No one likes being lied to when they KNOW it is a lie.
Your wife wants her dignity too, so she has to hold onto this as a "frienship" right now.
The ONLY way you can protect BOTH of you and avoid doing damage to the marriage is to tell her
I know, you know, we both know, It happens, lets move on
And do NOT argue the case like a courtroom lawyer...
your wife will TRY to argue, ignore it...
Just put it gently and over TIME your wife will gradually accept that you know when she realizes you are NOT going to vilify her for it.
That's the problem a lot of the time, people cheat and they want to get it overwith but they feel like they will be vilified for it so they try to keep it a secret.
I just told my wife outright "I'm no fool, and neither are you. We both know the truth so lets just leave all that behind us for now... It's not going to make either of us feel better arguing to spare ourselves some embarassment"
You are embarassed OM turned you into a cuckhold
Your wife is embarassed OM make her into a fool at work
Just tell her you know, simply and gently, and then move on.
It sounds like your wife DOES want to exchagne more kindnesses to explore rebuilding things... Her instincts are good there..
She just has to realize that the calls to OMW will end and it is NOT to make HER out as a villain... its to protect both marriages, provide OMW a sense of safety, and to allow everyone to process things in orde to move quickly to CLOSURE
Oftentimes OIN, repeating something, even if it is rejected will eventually be implicitly accepted.
I think your wife knows you know. I think she feels like you are accusing her of something terrible and doens't want it rubbed in her face right now.
Just tell her you konw to get the idea in her head, then drop it and make you both a nice dinner and stay out of the argument.
Wait for her to lie to you again and just gently tell her you know and then walk away to make a nice dinner..
When your wife sees you aren't trying to beat her up for the lying she will be a lot less defensive.
Even if the father won't stand up to her, OIN should.
Unfortunatley Lotus her father is divorced and ENCOURAGES her behaviour... He treats her like an innocent child and texts her sabotage regularly... He's a marriage meddler and poisoning her mind.
I am inclined think a lot of the garbage you get OIN is because of FIL's meddling..I think he's the one teaching her all her bad habits... He's ignorant, childish, and opinionated.. Just like your wife right now.
Look, you need to preserve your dignity, I get that. No one likes being lied to when they KNOW it is a lie.
Your wife wants her dignity too, so she has to hold onto this as a "frienship" right now.
The ONLY way you can protect BOTH of you and avoid doing damage to the marriage is to tell her
I know, you know, we both know, It happens, lets move on
And do NOT argue the case like a courtroom lawyer...
your wife will TRY to argue, ignore it...
Just put it gently and over TIME your wife will gradually accept that you know when she realizes you are NOT going to vilify her for it.
That's the problem a lot of the time, people cheat and they want to get it overwith but they feel like they will be vilified for it so they try to keep it a secret.
I just told my wife outright "I'm no fool, and neither are you. We both know the truth so lets just leave all that behind us for now... It's not going to make either of us feel better arguing to spare ourselves some embarassment"
You are embarassed OM turned you into a cuckhold
Your wife is embarassed OM make her into a fool at work
Just tell her you know, simply and gently, and then move on.
It sounds like your wife DOES want to exchagne more kindnesses to explore rebuilding things... Her instincts are good there..
She just has to realize that the calls to OMW will end and it is NOT to make HER out as a villain... its to protect both marriages, provide OMW a sense of safety, and to allow everyone to process things in orde to move quickly to CLOSURE
Oftentimes OIN, repeating something, even if it is rejected will eventually be implicitly accepted.
I think your wife knows you know. I think she feels like you are accusing her of something terrible and doens't want it rubbed in her face right now.
Just tell her you konw to get the idea in her head, then drop it and make you both a nice dinner and stay out of the argument.
Wait for her to lie to you again and just gently tell her you know and then walk away to make a nice dinner..
When your wife sees you aren't trying to beat her up for the lying she will be a lot less defensive.
Saving face and protecting ego is almost automatic when your blown out like this. You can't even prevent it, because it is painful. It takes time to come out of the ego built off an affair, and to figure out that the face your trying to save is not even the one you WANT.
I am trying to fight temptation today...
Friend txt me this morning told me that female co-worker who is friends with my W came up to him and said "W name, wants to ask you a question"
At that time my W had yet to go up to my friend and ask him that question.
Friend said that female co-worker said that my W text her and also said to her that it is not fair that I talk to OMW and she cannot talk to OM.
W believes I was lying about what happened yesterday and won't believe a word I say.
I was so tempted when W got home from work to bring up the conversation we had yesterday and convince her I was not lying and that any contact I made with OM/OMW ever is not the same as the contact she had with OM.
I held back so far but the urge to bring this all up is eating away at me. I W thinks I am being dishonest which is enabling her to think it's OK for her to be dishonest, an it is not.
OfficerInNeed, did the "friend" defend your wifes viewpoint. I'm not sure if I read that.
Your wife's just playing more childish games... stick to your script and wait for HER to confront you.. do NOT BLAST her..
You read like you are on edge just waiting for the chance to have a go at her.. go blow off some steam, you can't talk to her when you are in this kind of mindset or you will just DO DAMAGE
I am very calm actually. My concern is my W thinks I am lying. Yes I did something suspect by using a phone other than mine but my W thinks my intentions were something other than what they really were. Now she sees this as unfair and justification to talk to OM.
I want the opportunity to tell her the truth or set the record straight. This misunderstanding has killed what was going so good.
This morning I woke up early and clean the house. Rearranged furniture in living room W said it looks better now then it did. W then asked if I could call the salon for her and I did...I asked if she wanted the dog and I to drop her off she said OK but when we left the dog ended up not going so I drove her. We talked a little about non-R things.
Do I bring up what happened yesterday or not?
Do I ask her were we stand?
I know my W has a great relationship with her father and will take his advice no matter what. If he finds out I contacted OMW/OM he is going to tell her that she does not need this crap ect...
OfficerInNeed.
When they are lieing so much that they believe you are lieing, in their mind YOU ARE LYING. You may as well not say anything.
OIN you know the answers to those questions... why are you asking?
Let your FIL meddle... HE is doing DAMAGE too...
THAT is the difference.
The OM needs to set the record straight with your wife that he does NOT WANT to HEAR form your wife at ALL
She is still clinging to this ridiculous fantasy? What kind of half assed message is OM and OMW sending her that she's still fighting for contact there?
You bring this subject up you are going to regret it. Just stick to your initial position and wait for HER to bring it up... she will...
Why would you ask your wife where you two stand? You KNOW that's blatant pursuit and ridiculous to even TRY that stunt right now.. you KNOW what she will say...
When your wife is in a hissy fit she threatens to leave... that's her default tactic
Just let her stew for a while
WHen your wife comes and brings this up hit her with this :
You know what? If it's ok with OMW, then its ok with me...
Hand her your phone and invite her to call OM's WIFE and ask if she's comfortable with it...
THAT takes the pressure OFF YOU and onto OMW...
When your wife refuses to call, and she WILL
You tell her
OMW knows as well as you and I do that it's NOT healthy for a marriage to be talking to another woman's husband in SECRET in a way that does DAMAGE to that marriage.
OMW wants you to stop meddling in her marriage, that's it.
When I call, I am keeping OMW INFORMED and REASSURED that NO ONE IS MEDDLING... are YOU gonna do that? If so, go ahead, call OMW and reassure her that you aren't calling OM... That's what I am doing.. if YOU want to take on that responsability and make those calls you go for it...
OfficerInNeed.
When they are lieing so much that they believe you are lieing, in their mind YOU ARE LYING. You may as well not say anything.
This is just some silly children's grade school game.. Don't stoop to that nonsense... I can't believe a grown woman is acting like this...
Justlet her go... she's not cheating on you and she's not harming anyone.. She's just making a fool of herself at work and she will regret it
Let her humiliate herself.. it's not going to fall back on you as long as you steer clear
WHen your wife comes and brings this up hit her with this :
You know what? If it's ok with OMW, then its ok with me...
Hand her your phone and invite her to call OM's WIFE and ask if she's comfortable with it...
THAT takes the pressure OFF YOU and onto OMW...
When your wife refuses to call, and she WILL
You tell her
OMW knows as well as you and I do that it's NOT healthy for a marriage to be talking to another woman's husband in SECRET in a way that does DAMAGE to that marriage.
OMW wants you to stop meddling in her marriage, that's it.
When I call, I am keeping OMW INFORMED and REASSURED that NO ONE IS MEDDLING... are YOU gonna do that? If so, go ahead, call OMW and reassure her that you aren't calling OM... That's what I am doing.. if YOU want to take on that responsability and make those calls you go for it...
Puppy
Your wife should not take this crap. She should move out on her own and support herself and grow up. When she finds out that it is not so easy out there alone she may realize her husband was not so bad. But she can't come back unless she leaves. You are arguing in circles. Nothing changes. Mr. Bond is right. She is outsmarting you if she has you believing that a business call is the same as an emotional affair call. When will you accept that you will never win the argument with her?
I can't just throw her out or make her leave, she is co-owner of the home. I can't leave because my parents rent from us on one side.
I want to avoid her leaving because it will be that much hard to DB. I been telling you all this entire time she is a child when it comes to relationships. We been together since she was 14yo, I am all she has ever known
Ignore it OIN, you don't want her walking out that's not the way to rebuild a marriage.
If you can get this affair OUT of your home without her leaving do it, and it looks like you are doing that...
Just because the affair is dying doesn't mean your wife's grown up yet... Just steer clear of her while she's playing these childish games or you might be tempted to get caught up in them.
Fine. Maybe you can agree to quit arguing about the past. You won't talk to OMW, and she won't talk to OM. And just move forward. You can't change the past and you won't go to a professional to try to deal with it and put it to bed. So you will have to just drop it. both of you.
W won't go for that, the past is why she wants out of the marriage, the past is what she hold on to. No way am I going to be able to break her loose from it.
After W and I returned home we agreed to go on a short bike ride, we ended up at the park where we played a little basketball. W thought she pulled something in her back. W then started to say "if it is not one thing hurting me it is another" W and I began to talk about injuries we both endured as we were younger. It was a great conversation till W started to bring up the past and so I said
You did not need to bring that up in a calm humbling tone. W said "well I am just saying, I have to live with it" and I replied "As do I, it hurts me just as well and I fell terrible about what happened in the past" nothing was said after we just carried on. We headed back home and watched a little TV then played a game...
Went on the computer for a little bit, W aunt uploaded pictures of our wedding and Hallowrecption (Halloween party/wedding reception). We looked at some of the pictures and laughed, I commented on nice W looked in her costume and W said "you told me I looked terrible"
The story behind this was, W and I had planned our costumes for weeks in advanced, the day of things did not go according to plan and W had to compromise big time. Due to the stress of last minute rushing and costume plans falling through I said to my W that the costume looked terrible, never meaning she looked terrible but that is how she sees it today. SO I said to W today
"It was a stressful day and the costume was last minute, it was thrown together, the costume looked terrible, not you."
W then went into shower...
Beautiful! that was great. everything you said was perfect. What you said about the past was great. Do it everytime she brings up the past. It would be really good if somehow you could both apologize to each other for past hurts and then just let it go. Holding onto past hurts can do nothing but ruin your future!
i forgot to mention that my W was talking about something that reminded her of a conversation that FIL and W had about OM/OMW that if they called the house again to tell them to F-off. I did not bit and just remained silent not sure how to respond. not sure why W is nothing following her fathers advice to just "forget them"
W has been withdrawn ever since the incident occured yesterday. Up till then she was speaker future tense and "us" or "we" often now all that talk has ended.
She'll get over it. It takes time. I will be surprised if she ever moves out. Some people are happy in their misery. She seems to be one of them. She's got it all set up so she can be grumpy because the world isn't perfect, but then again, it's not so bad, either.
Why is FIL doing that?
Because...
FIL is an ass and avoids accountability just like his daughter.. NEITHER of those two wants to acknowledge the horrible nightmares and trauma that OMW has been through ... all the panic and feeling violated...
Those two both think the same way OIN... they brush away anything that demands they be accountable for any wrongdoing... they are both CHILDREN
Let's not come down too hard on FIL. First of all, can we assume that he is well informed about the real relationship between W and OM? No. She's told him some story where the two of them are just innocent employees discussing important company policy and everyone is making up stories about them. And then OMW gets a crazy bug and decides to call OIN just to make trouble. So of course he says, "forget them." And, actually, it is good advice. Forget them. We wish she would!
I am coming down hard on FIL because he's NOT fact checking his daughter's story and is simply taking it at face value.
And worse, he's meddling in the marriage using text messages daily.. that's not just ignorance, its cowardly too...
OIN TRIED to talk to her FIL and he wouldn't listen... he's just as stubborn as OIN's wife is... OIN's wife and FIL are reinforcing each other's behaviour and have been for some time now...
I you aren't going to help repair a marriage you need to stay out... and meddling covertly with text messages is cowardly
This morning when W left for work I said "bye" and she said nothing in return.
I talked to OMW today to find out if OM said anything further about reporting W to manager. OMW told me how OM has been an ideal H ever since this "ended." OMW told me how OM makes fun of W. I told OMW to get tape recorder and record OM saying these things and then send it to my W in mail. OMW will try to barrow tape recorder from work.
When W got home from work I was sitting out on the front steps just enjoying the weather, As W was getting out the car she said "What are you doing out here?" with an attitude and stupidly I said in response "Oh, I did not know I was not allowed outside"
Of course this got W upset, I explained to her the dog tore somethings up and I was upset because of it that I did not mean to get smart with her.
W got over it. While W was at work I made a banana cream pie (her favorite) I dont recall if she thanked me...
she told me a little but about what happened at work today then changed and laid down in bed. My W and I had planned to go to a car show but she went to sleep instead. I told W "If you don;t want to go to the car show that is fine, I won't mind going by myself" W never answered me but did eventually get up and got ready.
We went to the car show and I ran into a few of my friends. We talked for a bit, W and I walked around and I took the opportunity to bring up a concern.
I said "I know how things are right now, but I think at the very least you should treat me with the respect you would give to a complete stranger..."hi" "bye" "thank you" "your welcome", you know just common courtesy"
W said "what do you mean" with a little attitude
I said "Well I say by to you in the morning and you say nothing in return"
W said "I say what I feel...and I said bye"
I said "I just want a little respect is all"
W said "Don't talk to me about or have a conversation to me about respect"
I said nothing and headed straight for the car...up to that point I was talking calm and like an adult, W tried to turn it into an arguement and I simply walked away. When we got in the car I calmed my self down and started to talk upbeat again....
Good for you! You'll be giving lessons in this after a while!
No OIN, that was a bad move.. I mean, your wife got home and asked you an honest question and you "got smart" with her.. you BOTH do it...
I don't think during that time block you really had much to complain about when you so recently had been a bit rude...
AND, I warned you that you wouldn't get much help if you confronted her
Sigh... just be the better man... She's feeling lousy and thinks expressing lousy comments is ok... but you both do it..
My advice is to just set a good example and keep doing it... Don't ask her to do teh same, he's just going to get defensive.. and she DID
Good call on the tape recorder, very inventive
Allen,
I know it was a bad move when I gave her a smart remark after her asking me the question. She said it as if I was not allowed to sit out front of our home. I reacted in a immature manner. I slipped up.
I was a calm and easy talking as could be when I brought up the common courtesy talk. I said it and left it at that, I did not argue like she wanted to and I will not bring it up again.
It's tough when all get for a response or acknowledgment are sounds and goofy looks....just not my W and I know I could be much worse off so I will stomach it.
================
W had gave me the card from the dog for fathers day early. It was a great gesture, W even got the dog to bring it to me. I said to W "I know it is from the dog but thank you for doing that, it means a lot to me and thank you for bringing her into our lives."
W and I drove up to the water fronts with our bikes hitched on the car, we then rode our bikes along the water front talking ect. I got a lot her little sounds and short snippy responses but it was not too bad. My W fell from her bike going down hill, I rushed over to her in concern , she was laughing about it but hurting. I tried to help her up but she would not help me, I expressed concern and tried to make sure she was OK but did not want it....We stopped at a drug store on the way home, I ran in and got her a first aid kit. W asked for a sling just in case she has to wear it to work tomorrow...I can see/hear it now "My H did this to me"
I helped W run the bath water since her arm is not quite mobile at the moment. W still covers up around me as if I am a complete stranger.
I know its hard OIN, but remember you said on this forum some time ago that your wife had to deal with that for ten years off and on roughly yes?
How long has it been? Six months?
You are doing fantastic, just keep it up... Your wife does not seem to be behaving like someone who has her mind set on leaving... My impression is that she's unconsciously testing you... every day to determine your resolve and maturity level... She wants to know this is going to last LONG TERM and it isn't just a short term stunt to trick her into trusting you again...
That's my take on it anyway...
Not sure if you can either ask for or demand respect from your W. She must decide when and if to give it to you. Asking for or demanding respect right now is a sure fire way to an argument (or sigh, scoff, or eye roll).
I don't know...
It has been 4 months and 6 days since the bomb but at least 5 months since my W started to "fall out of love" with me.
Sometimes this all just baffles me. Like this morning, W is getting ready for work, I wake up and turn to her as she stood beside the bed and ask "how do you feel, arm still hurt" and W responds "umm hmmm" and I think "what did I do from the time I slept to the time I just woke up and asked you that question to piss you off now?"
My W decided to wear the sling to work. I got out of bed and went down the stairs to assist her with anything she may need assistance with.
I am standing on one side of the kitchen as W asked if I could grab something from the fridge, I head to the fridge but obviously not fast enough because W immediately said "NM I'll get it myself, can you do this instead" with an attitude. W puts on boots and attempts to tie the laces, I offered to help but she refused. She rather struggle and hurt than to allow me to help.
W was leaving, I closed doors behind her and said "bye" and she walked out and she did say "bye" in return.
And honestly, I don't doubt for one moment my W is serious about leaving. Despite everything we do together I can still see her walking out the door just for her to proof a point to me and herself. If she can make it a few days, she'll make it a week and if she can make it a week she'll go for two and so on till she can do without.
I watched my W shut her own mother out and to this day still does so.
Sometimes this all just baffles me. Like this morning, W is getting ready for work, I wake up and turn to her as she stood beside the bed and ask "how do you feel, arm still hurt" and W responds "umm hmmm" and I think "what did I do from the time I slept to the time I just woke up and asked you that question to piss you off now?"
Funny! But you don't have to assume that her moods are all about you. Probably they aren't.
I am standing on one side of the kitchen as W asked if I could grab something from the fridge, I head to the fridge but obviously not fast enough because W immediately said "NM I'll get it myself, can you do this instead" with an attitude. W puts on boots and attempts to tie the laces, I offered to help but she refused. She rather struggle and hurt than to allow me to help.
OK, here I would assume she is pissy at you.
W was leaving, I closed doors behind her and said "bye" and she walked out and she did say "bye" in return.
Very good. She listened to you and did what you asked.
And honestly, I don't doubt for one moment my W is serious about leaving. Despite everything we do together I can still see her walking out the door just for her to proof a point to me and herself. If she can make it a few days, she'll make it a week and if she can make it a week she'll go for two and so on till she can do without.
How can you stop her? She is determined to do her own thing. Maybe she should have thought of that before she got married young. Are you going to spend the next 50 years of your life worrying every day that she will leave you? Why not let her go and see if she comes back?
I watched my W shut her own mother out and to this day still does so.
I don't know the story behind this, but it is not a good personality trait. Goes back to the same question above, do you want to spend the next 50 years worrying every day about this?
How can you stop her? She is determined to do her own thing. Maybe she should have thought of that before she got married young. Are you going to spend the next 50 years of your life worrying every day that she will leave you? Why not let her go and see if she comes back?
No ultimately I can't force her to stay and if I had to then it's not worth it. Yes we got married young but each of us knew what a big commitment we were making. Giving the extent of our relationship and our bond up we shared, getting married felt natural.
This person is not my W or the girl I had known for the past 10 years. She has done a complete 180. There is a part of me that thinks maybe somewhere inside is still the person she once was and I know...there are times when that person surfaces.
Also I forgot to mention in a previous post that, the wedding photos my W's relative uploaded to facebook, my W had saved to her laptop.
Not sure if you can either ask for or demand respect from your W. She must decide when and if to give it to you. Asking for or demanding respect right now is a sure fire way to an argument (or sigh, scoff, or eye roll).
OIN can't demand respect. He can, however, demand to be
treated respectfully, with common courtesies and civility that one would give a stranger, and remove himself from the situation when she doesn't do it. A subtle -- but important -- distinction.
He's doing that very well.
Puppy
I know its hard OIN, but remember you said on this forum some time ago that your wife had to deal with that for ten years off and on roughly yes?
How long has it been? Six months?
You are doing fantastic, just keep it up... Your wife does not seem to be behaving like someone who has her mind set on leaving... My impression is that she's unconsciously testing you... every day to determine your resolve and maturity level... She wants to know this is going to last LONG TERM and it isn't just a short term stunt to trick her into trusting you again...
That's my take on it anyway...
I used to think like this, but what has she done to gain his trust?
That's not her objective right now DLS, never was... HE has to convince her to trust HIM first...
W came home from work early due to the pain associated with the fall from yesterday.
W got changed out of her work clothes and had walked into the bedroom to show me the bruising on her buttock as a result of the fall from her bike. I expressed concern.
W then came to bed barely able to use her right arm due to the pain. W asked for something to eat and so I prepared her something. W then went to sleep.
W is being secretive with her text messages, but from the logs I can see she is texting female friend from work...this is usually who my W turns to talk about OM for the most part.
W has not spoke future tense since the day she learned about the phone call and admitted in her own way she was trying to make it work but cannot find happiness with me. Right now it seems she is just going with the flow until the apartment is ready.
She should have her arm x-rayed. If it is broken it will need to be set for it to heal properly. And, hey, she showed you her buttock!
And, hey, she showed you her buttock!
lol
I suspect your wife is talking to her friend about OM and looking for support for the mess she's made of her workplace reputation and her household...
I would guess her friend will eventually get sick of your wife playing victim to everyone... The tune does get old... even to friends and family.
OM may need to keep clear of her friend too, just to reassure his wife he's not picking up messages from a third party.
OK this is what I am told.
This female co-worker already is annoyed by my W, but she listens. This female co-worker is better friends with my friend who also works with them. This female co-worker tells my friend at times what they talk about. This female co-worker told my friend that she has her own family to worry about she does not want to get involved.
Now this female co-worker does have a "relationship" with OM good friend who also works with them.
So it is hard to determine what female co-workers intentions are or what advice she is giving.
What signs am I looking for at this point? How do I know we are progressing and she is getting over OM? No one can guarantee the two do not at least exchange a few words here and there but I have people who are looking out for me then I have OMW who tells me all is glory on their end.
OIN,
IMO, I would say to stop looking for signs. They've driven you crazy. Detach your feelings from your W and start concentrating on yourself and your needs. I'm not talking about dating, etc. I'm saying that you need to detach so that you don't get sucked into your W's drama.
And it is your W's drama. Not yours.
Let me put it to you this way. Just because your W might have ended things with this OM, there's not guarantee that there's not another one in the future.
Start detaching now and see if she continues to follow.
I have detached the best I can for the situation we are in. We still live together and often do thing with each other. I do not let her emotions impact mine like I use to.
I am not sure how detached I have to be....
What are things I should try to initiate at this point if any?
Just follow your wife, she seems to be trying to initiate things here and there.. when she tries, cooperate... If she just wants to be left alone then don't push her...
It was a beautiful day out and I asked W a few times if she was up to doing anything, she did not say no but would say "not right now" I would let time pass getting myself occupied then I would ask her again if she wanted to do something, each time something different.
Eventually I just said to her "I know you are hurting and are not up to doing anything, just relax. I am going to go to the cookout and allow you to rest." I then left and went to family cookout by myself. Of course while I was there everyone was asking about her.
I got back home W was still sleeping, she did wake up shortly after I got home and asked if something to eat. We then sat in bed watched some TV and had a little conversation....
There was an instance where W the dog bumped into W sore arm and W started to groan in pain. I placed my hand on W arm and kind of rubbed it for her asking if she was OK. Then years of habit prompted me to do it. She did not pull away or object thou.
while w was in bath she txt messaged female co-worker and deleted the messages from phone.
W had grabbed my phone from night stand, I had a txt message I did not want her to see...I was trying to plan a gathering for tomorrow to go on a boat ride and did not want her to see the plans just yet, so I took the phone back and deleted the message. This sparked an attitude from her to me, as I tried to explain all I would get is "whatever it does not matter anyway" "I'm done, its fine, it does not matter"
I then was able to explain to W what was going on and let her read previous txt messages about the plans so she knew I was doing nothing malicious.
W watched TV together and and looked at some old pictures.
I asked W if she heard from FIL and she had just received a txt from him. I said to W "I don't know what it is if anything but I txt ur father often about updates on GF and he never responds. He use to send me updates but does not anymore" W just played dumb and said "maybe he assumes I will give u the update."
I asked W if I could see her phone, she gave a little fit and handed it over...I said "You delete your messages often, you did not do that before" W said "If I want to delete messages I will delete them" I said "I know, and I am not saying you can't or should not but would you have a problem with not deleting them?" W asked "Why"I said "Well I don't delete mine and are free to see" W said "That's fine, delete them if you want I am not going to govern your text messages" Then she gave me a pissy attitude about how I asked that question...
When ever my W does something it is fine, but if I do it then I am being a jerk or hiding something. Although my intentions are good I am getting caught up in this mess and I look like the bad guy as if I am the one being dishonest which gives her the fuel she needs to continue doing what she does
You are too wrapped up in this. You need to stop all the interfering. then you won't have anything to hide. As I remember, her complaint about you is that you are too controlling. What are you doing to fix that? I see a lot of focusing on her problem, and none on yours. Even if she comes around and decides, "OK, I don't have any better option than to stay here with OIN", she will look at you and think, "yeah, but he treats me like his prisoner, I don't want to stay here".
that's the thing, I have done so much work on myself and this marriage and all she has done is cause more damage.
I made 180s, I got the help I needed. She lives in the past and fails to see the present OIN.
I start to think that when people say "make the changes and your WAS will notice" is a myth but I still made the changes to better myself.
As for the controlling part, yes I am caught up in her nonsense but I am just trying to protect myself. I won't sit back and let my W damage our marriage by being a dishonest cheat.
Sounds like you are ready to stand up for yourself the next time she attacks. I hope you get a chance to tell her all of that.
OIN your wife has been fantasizing about another man for MONTHS... THAT is what is holding her back... NOT YOUR EFFORTS...
There are other things messing your wife's head up besides anything you may be doing.
If you change what YOU are doing that doen'st mean your wife is suddenly goign to snap out of it... Your wife has a LOT of myths in her brain about marriage in general, not to mention fantasies of running off with woman's husband... THAT is what's holding her back most likley, NOT you.
I know OM claims he's staying away and all that, but he's already messed your wife's head up now... It's going to take her months to process his exit... You have a very stubborn wife who doesn't give things up easily... OM is going to have to make a LOT of grand statements to make it clear to yoru wife that he is 100% committed to his wife... chit chatting to YOUR wife in private just REINFORCES her fantasy.. .he's been DOING that for MONTHS... MONTHS...
Keep all your messages on your phone... The next time your wife wants to see your phone call her on deleting her messages...
"If you want us to trust each OTHER.. and I Have a good reason NOT to trust YOU either then we are BOTH going to have to STOP DELETING and HIDING MESSAGES... BOTH of us need to follow the SAME GUIDELNES if we want to trust each other here... ok?"
She will throw a fit, tell her she is welcome to see your phone if she hasn't removed her messages from her phone.
Educate her when you are interacting, don't just hand phones over.. TALK to her so she understands why its being done, and REINFORCE that SHE isn't 100% trustworthy either...
If she makes a fit, and she may tell her
"You were chasing another woman's husband for months... everyone at work knows about it... If you want to be trusted, you have to act trustworthy... Deleting messages does NOT make me trust you OR you trust ME does it?"
SHe will likley throw a fit and walk away...
That's fine, you got your point in... Each time you have a chance to talk.. at HER INITIATING IT... you educate her GENTLY... I think she DOES get it... she's just growing up and acting like a stubborn teenager... she doesnt' WANT to grow up so she's being beligerent.
The fact that she DID hand you her phone is a good sign, so try to remember that... She is showing that she understands trust is bi-directional... you both exchange phones at the same time right?
God damnit I hate cell phones...
No, she puts up a fit about handing over the cell phone. I hand mine over usually with no objection, I then ask for hers and she will ask why 100 times before she does, even then it does not matter because she removed everything.
All I am to my W is a big mistake. This is the word she uses often for passwords ect..
I never expected things to be great or even OK between us in such sort time but I never expected them to be this bad either.
Her bitterness and the grudge she is holding, I don't ever see it going away. People see the toll this has took/is taking on me and many say "Just let her go she is not worth it, she is not the person she once was so why bother"
Seems now that W is trying to keep me out of her family's mind. Her aunt just wrote her an email about a few things and ask how I was doing, W ignored it. W family has gathering every year on memorial day. I ask where the gather is this year and now its "I don't know, I don't think there is one"
Figure out how much more time you can do in this. I'd lay back and do some things on my own. Your not a mistake, she's being a liar.
Keep acting like you are, and you will attract high quality mates who don't want to play games with you.
If your wife asks why TELL Her...
YOU LIED
You deliberately mislead myself, people at work, and violated someone's marriage.
We both are having trouble trusting each other right now and offering ourl ives up OPENLY is ONE WAY professional therapists reccomend to REBUILD TRUST that's been DAMAGED.
I am cooperating here rather than fighting, are you willing to cooperate or do you want this to be a fight - if you want to fight then the fight is YOUR OWN, NOT MINE.
And when she hands you the phone and you hand her yours... let he go through yorus... don't even LOOK at her phone.. just hold it until she's done with yours then exchange them back.
When your wife asks why find simple precise ways to get a point across, dont' ARGUE back, just state the facts like the above sample and wait for a response.
A marriage isn't a mistake, it's a choice you make EACH DAY... A choice to work WITH your partner, or AGAINST them... Your choice here... But if this doens't work and I am cooperating then we know who is sending this marriage into the toilet, and it won't be me...
And set your phone down in front of her and watch...
Each time you have a chance, sneak in some education.. she will likely dismiss it, but it WILL sit in her brain a while...
If she refuses to hand over her phone after saying the above then just walk away.
YOu need a solid simple response like this to all her statements... if you keep them simle it DOES sink in and resonate.. they may not change, but it does sneak something in there for you...
Allen,
I agree with everything you've said here (and above) 100%, but at some point, don't you think the time for talking, teaching, educating, and persuading ends?
Tens of thousands of WORDS have been given to OIN here, and thousands of those have been conveyed from him to his wife. The only thing she's going to understand at this point, in my opinion, is ACTION, BOUNDARIES and CONSEQUENCES.
My mentor when I was going thru my sitch, NOPkins, used to say "You can't teach an infidel." I think that's about right.
These posts, conversations, etc., between OIN and his wife this week are exactly the same as they were a month and a half ago. They are STUCK, dead STUCK.
I don't think any amount of "educating" is going to change that, as "correct" as the curriculum may very well be.
Puppy
You may be right, I am just thinking that OM may have finally sent an END THIS message and she may gradually open up...
It's pretty clear OM has been leading OIN's WS on for the last several months... in THAT time block yes she wont' learn much...
But I am thinking IF there is a clear END to the AFFAIR in her head now that in a few weeks she may warm up a little... she did buy OIN a bike for them to go riding after all... That's not something she would have done several months ago...
Yesterday...
W had agreed to do something but was undecided what. While W was getting ready to go she asked me if I had switched my health insurance yet.
During this time (time we got up till we left) W would giving me her typical responses in sounds.
I had to take something out our shed and put it on the back of the truck. W offered to help, I turned down her offer and said "thank you." W was still wearing her sling from the bike fall.
We headed out not knowing where...I asked W if she wanted to go up to the falls (Niagara Falls). She shrugged her shoulders and said "if you want" I then said in response "I would love to go but I want to make sure you do as well before we go all the way out there" all she said is "I won't know how I feel till we get there"
So we went there. Once we got there W wanted to go into to aquarium, so we did. We had a pretty good time. We had some good conversation.
We then walked up to the falls but then decided to cross the border (luckily they let us over with our work IDs). We went to Clifton Hill. We visited a spot we were at 7 years ago and took a pictures together on rock with a pond and garden in the background. I asked W if she wanted to take the same pic (7 years later) she said "NO."
We decided to grab something to eat. We went into the rain forest cafe, the place we ate at the very first time I took her to Clifton Hill for her B-Day when she was 18. We talked about then and now, comparing things. For the most part it was a good lunch. There was a time where she looked spaced out.
We then decided to go into a wax museum. We enjoyed, it. Taking pictures of each other with wax figures but not together. At one point W set off an alarm by reaching, we had a good laugh about that.
Then we decided to go on the giant Ferris Wheel. I am deathly afraid of heights but I overcame my fear to go on there with my W. She knows that I am and I told her that I was doing this so we could enjoy it. Once I calmed down it was great. there was an amazing few of the falls from there. While up there we seen yet another wax museum she wanted to go to, so when we got off we headed there as well.
We had a great time at the second wax museum. We each took pictures of each other and once again not together. We had fun.
We were heading back but then there was another museum she wanted to go in, so we did...we exited through a store front where we seen a stuffed dog that looks like our dog, so W wanted to purchase it. There was also an infants "onesie" that was too unique not to get, so I said "I have to get that. I'll get it now for later" (hint, hint) W did not bite.
So now we were heading back to our vehicle, it was a long walk but we made it and headed home. We first had to stop at a toy-r-us to get a kiddie pool for our dog, they were sold but we ended up getting a board game of sorts... W went home, played with the dog then fooled with the game and then fell to sleep.
There were times where my W of old surfaced and then there were times I experienced her bitterness and W would give an attitude or object to something I said but I would say it was a good day...
We'll see how today goes.
W and I scanned through the pictures we took yesterday while at the Falls. We laughed pretty good at a few of them.
W and I went out today in attempted to find our dog a kiddie pool she can soak in on hot days, we had no success but while out W decided to buy a couple more board games she had interest in playing (don't know what it is with her and games but at least we have fun during those times).
On our way back home I asked W if she would like and stop for a bite to eat she said she was not hungry but suggested I stop and get something to pack for work later on. So I did.
When we got home we played the games W had purchased, had a good time.
At one point my hand was on the on couch, W moved her hand and touched mine by accident and she jumped back as if she touched a hot stove. It kills me. 10 years of intimacy and affection and now nothing...
On another note, talk to OMW today. She said things still going good, said that OM is going to talk to manager again since W still has bot been pulled aside. We'll see.
W doing google searches for OMW.
Patience. Let her self-destruct.
Distance yourself from her now.
I try to distance myself but yet we go out and do things and have fun (well it seems like she has fun). DO I keep these things up? or stop doing stuff with her for now? Not sure....
You don't need to necessarily stop going out with her, but just cut back on them a bit.
It's obvious she's still obsessed with OM and is now having fantasies of doing something to his W. She needs to let all those emotions process. The faster she can crash and burn the better.
Right now you are like her security blanket. Not someone she respects. What was it about the OM that she found attractive? Emulate some of those traits.
Well I did thin the time we spent did help our sitch.
From what my W has ever told me OM is easy to talk to and he listens.
From what friends told me he is an obnoxious BSer who jokes all the time.
From what omw told me, he has a great personality which makes him easy to get along with and talk to
I try to be a better communicator but I don't get much opportunity. I listen to W talk I give indication I am listening with acknowledgments nodding eye contact at times repeat what she is saying, I do my best
Well I did thin the time we spent did help our sitch.
From what my W has ever told me OM is easy to talk to and he listens.
From what friends told me he is an obnoxious BSer who jokes all the time.
From what omw told me, he has a great personality which makes him easy to get along with and talk to
I try to be a better communicator but I don't get much opportunity. I listen to W talk I give indication I am listening with acknowledgments nodding eye contact at times repeat what she is saying, I do my best
Funny how thats an endearing quality to alot of women. The bigger the d-bag, the more women they get. Crazy.
Some women like the jokers, ones who take not much serious, but also who don't put out alot of serious information. I guess its his job to amuse them.
Today was the day.
This morning when W left for work and arrived at work we had a descent exchange of text messages. I had asked W a question but she did not response to it.
W had doctor appt. today after work to get her arm checked out. W had txt me that she had arrived at the doctor. I had a feeling something was not right.
I txt W that I had errands to run and a few things to do. I left house to do those things. When I was out, W called me. W said that the doctor had seen her and referred her to go straight to another dr. that she might have a fracture. When W said this I expressed my concern and asked W if she wanted me to meet her at the doctor, she said "why?" in a calm tone and I replied "I am concerned, this is a bad situation and I want to be there for you." W replied "It's OK, it might not be anything, I could be there for a few minutes for all I know" so I did not go.
while W was waiting in doctor office we exchanged a few text messages non-r related.
I arrived at home, shortly after W called and told me what the outcome was and that she was on her way home. Turns out she has a sprain.
When W got home, she interacted with the dog. We had a brief exchange and then she said it....
She sat her purse down on the table and said, I got pulled to the manager's office today and said the managers name. this is how my W narrated what was said
Manager: This situation has to end the talking needs to stop
W: It already did
Manager: I spoke to the higher up and he said maybe it is best one of you two go to second shift in order to squash this.
- I wanted to say "he should be the one to go" but kept my mouth shut
W: From my understanding it is squashed we don't talk anymore. It was already decided we don't work together anymore.
Manager: Well it just needs to end, don't even look at one another. Let people move on to the next thing. People talk, I been there. Let this blow over
W: Understood and it is.
I am sure I did not get it exactly how the convo went but W said all this in such a calm tone and she down played it as if it were not big deal to her getting pulled in by the manager because according to my W the manager down played it. I am not sure if I should be worried...
I said nothing, I offered no opinion, I just gave head nods and maybe a "huh" or "hmm" or two. Soon as she finished saying what she had to say, I directed the focus to something else, I believe I started talking about the dog.
After we talked like we usually do. W was starting to upset me due to not meeting emotional needs, I remained calm and then walked up stairs. W followed me up stairs she laid in bed and went on laptop. She started to play a game on laptop and I joined in. During this time, I accidentally did something I should not had but something I use to always do, W gave me a dirty look and told me she would punch me in the face lol.
I told W and I seen her struggling to do something "Don't be too proud to ask for help. I don't want you to make your injury any worse. I don't mind helping you out" W simply relied "i'll be fine"
Shortly following W feel to sleep.
As a side not, I had spoke with a friend today who is her co-worker he said was in a good mood, this is before I learned she got pulled aside and I was wondering if anything did happen at work. friend of mine was nit aware she had got pulled aside.
Friend said W was in a good mood. W explained to him ho she hurt her arm (she told the true story). W mentioned to friend how she things people talk about other people at the work place and to watch out and said "like her over there, I know she has said something about me" friend said he did not offer a response. This is unlike my W to worry about what others say or even care...
Friend said at one point he was behind W and W did not know. Someone asked my W what OM had to say about her arm being in a sling and she replied "we don't talk anymore." She said this without knowing friend was near.
You mentioned a few slips, but at least you got through this without being a punching bag... you changed the subject.. EXCELLENT
See that's the thing...W was calm almost too calm when talking about as if it were no big deal or a joke so I just let it ride and offered no opinion or objected anything.
I am sure I did not get it exactly how the convo went but W said all this in such a calm tone and she down played it as if it were not big deal to her getting pulled in by the manager because according to my W the manager down played it. I am not sure if I should be worried...
About what??
Puppy
What are you worried about?
Oh that the point did not get across to W and she thinks it is a big joke or if the convo did not even happen and this is some lan them two thought up....
She won't get the "point". And you can't "expect" her to get it either. It'll take time.
I wouldn't worry about whether or not the convo. happened or not. If that's more game playing she wants to do, then well that's her.
Detach my friend.
I'm detached. I guess I expected a bigger deal made of this than she projected today. I will see how it plays out. I have eyes and hears
Yes, I had anticipated a blow up too... She may be bottling her frustration... She may just blast you two days from now over nothing... Just keep your distance... She may just be looking for a willing target... She must be mad... Maybe she's just learning to control it...
This is all very bizarre. I would bet your W is not telling you the whole story.
You live in NY state, correct? As soon as the higher ups at my H's company learned he was having an affair with a co-worker they could not contact me fast enough. And no, that is not how I found out. You see, due to the divorce laws in this state it is a *very* serious matter to begin an affair in the workplace. Essentially when an affair starts at the company and the company building, telephones, property or computers are used in *any* sense to conduct the affair it is very bad.
My H works for a very trendy/hip company with nearly 5000 employees and that place is rife with affairs. It makes a soap opera look like nursery school. Behind closed doors this company has shelled out millions in legal fees getting wrapped up in litigation in adultery cases and they are more than willing to do whatever is appropriate to prevent that from happening.
I hope your W wakes up and realizes what a very serious matter this is should you decide to file for divorce or she does for that matter.
Who has the insurance with their jobs?? If you have access call them and check on the billing!! If she really went to two appointments they would show up!
She did go. I never doubted that sje went to the doctor. She used the debit card for our joint bank account for the co-pay.
Seeking advice going forward.
What to do/What not to do.
I know the DB obvious what not to do (say ILY, gifts ect...)
For the past few weeks my W and I have done a lot together. We enjoyed ourselves for the most part during these times. Up until a week ago there was a stretch of 4 or 5 days where W seemed to put in an effort to try and make M work. Once she found the phone she has since stopped her efforts. Sine that day we still do things but nearly every time has been initiated by me. I don't know if this is good or bad. It could be considered pursuit if I ask W to go somewhere with me or do something but at the same time W can make her own decisions and she choose to go. There were times where I felt her attitude was as if I was forcing her or dragging her out to do something she did not want to but why would she agree to go if she did not want to go.
Do I keep on doing these sort of things, such as asking W to join me in doing something or acts of service? I am trying to make the most of what could be an opportunity of filling the void but I don't want to do too much that it creates pressure and pushes her away but at the same time I don't want to sit back and not meet a need she is looking for me to fulfill.
Just be your normal self. Go with the flow. She knows she is being watched at work. Don't call OMW, don't borrow your neighbor's phone. You'll be fine.
W unexpectedly arrived home form work early. I asked her is everything was OK, I thought maybe it had something to do with her arm, W said "It was slow at work and they were offering early out."
W plans on attending a female co-worker's grandmothers funeral this evening and was looking for a particular shirt at 9am... I got up and helped W find the shirt due to her arm and she was attempting to move mounds of clothes.
W and I were laying in bed, W was on the computer and she turned to me and said "guess who is giving a free concert here in August?" So I went along with her guessing game and threw out one of my favorite band names and turns out it is them. I expressed my excitement about the concert and said something along the lines of "That is going to be a great concert, we have to go" and W replies "We can go but I don't know if it is going to be together" I kind of gave a "pffft, and turned my head" and W said "what?" and I replied "the comment you made" and left it at that.
I probably handled that wrongly but I had just woke up and did not expect her to say that...
It's not a big deal...
I honestly am thinking your wife is getting some perverse pleasure out of making you squirm and pursue her like this...
Each time she throws out the "I'm leaving" and you show a negative reaction your wife gets her fix.
I am thinking on the best way to handle things... Divorce-busting is not my strong suit, its affair-busting and you pretty much put an end to that I'd say... Excellent work there btw
It's not a big deal...
I honestly am thinking your wife is getting some perverse pleasure out of making you squirm and pursue her like this...
Gee, ya
think???
and she turned to me and said "guess who is giving a free concert here in August?" So I went along with her guessing game and threw out one of my favorite band names and turns out it is them. I expressed my excitement about the concert and said something along the lines of "That is going to be a great concert, we have to go" and W replies "We can go but I don't know if it is going to be together"
Better answer:
(cheerfully) "Well, your loss. I'm gonna go -- I think it's gonna be great."
PDT your right, I should had said something along those lines. I was tired and caught of guard.
She did NOT say "I will be moved out by then" or "I wont be here"
she said "I don't know if we'll be going together"
Just read my posts in the past few days, I was fooled and got too relax and assumed we were heading in the right direction again.
You are in a good place OIN, you have two things going for you many here do not :
1. You both are in the same home - this makes your changes easily viewable by the spouse
2. There's (hopefully) no interloping party picking away at your marriage covertly bullying it into divorce (unless you count your FIL)
Yes we are in same household, for now. I am not sure how long this will last.
I seen a TM on W phone from FIL and it read "How are things?" W has not responded to that text message.
I was told that when W got pulled into the managers office after W TM female co-worker whom she had been talking to all along and I question the advice she may be given to my W. I was told W was upset about the situation but yet when she told me she down played it.
Right now W thinks life stinks as she would put it.
According to OMW things are great. OM surprised OMW at work with a dozen roses, delivered them to her himself. The situation is still being monitored but things in their marriage seem to be going well so I will limit contact unless I hear something.
I wanted to know for those who have reconciled, during the time the sitch was bad did your WS express same feeling "ILBNILY" "can never be with you again" "we got married for all the wrong reasons" did they ever 180 since you started to piece back together and say "ILY" or "I am happy with you"...cause as of now I just can't ever see that stage happening.
I also have this lingering concern another OM will come into the picture...
We have all heard that stuff OIN.. all of us...
And yes, it DOES change back for hte better, but it takes TIME... a LONG TIME
I think Saffie said her husband took a year after the affair ended to actually fully own it like an adult and speak up
a YEAR... And this affair in yoru home just ended days ago... Your wife was still holding on even though OM was trying to exit.. he WAS leading her on by continuing the contact...
The OM in your situation enjoyed the ego boost your wife was lavishing on him... so he didn't want to let go of that.. he may have done so now...
Once that ENDS.. and your WIFE OWNS the end rather than carrying some torch in her imagination for months on end... THEN you can start the clock ticking and in one year your wife may be back to normal... a YEAR
I understand it takes time. If W would agree to work on M then a year does not seem so far away but in this instance where she tells me she is going to leave every so often or one day she speak future tense and the next she reverts back to 'it's over' makes it hard to imagine dealing with that for a year assuming she is still in the same home. I don't know how much time I have left before she walks out...
I just need some heavy hitters as a response for
1. She tells me she is leaving
2. Says something that would suggest she might stay with out pressuring her or scaring her off.
3. Throws jabs at me like she did today "We can go but I don't know it will be together"
4. When she thinks negatively about our marriage and says it is a mistake.
===============
Also how about you (Allen) or PDT personally has your WS said to either one of you that they loved you again like they did before or something more? or for the WAS (lotus) have you said ILY or expressed joy reconciling with LBS?
The affair that hit my home is only 8 months ended... I haven't heard anything like that and I don't pursue that... I look for ACTIONS that are positive and I keep myself afloat with those... the words come LATER
For many WS its easier to DO something loving (like going to an event with you or buying you a bicycle) than to express it verbally outright to their spouse
Your wife is not one day going to suddenly start smiling.. its gonig to be gradual...
I get the sense already that you are hearing her threats to leave LESS OFTEN now than when the OM was racing through her imagination daily... yes?
You need to stop aiming so high here... you want positive actions gradually increasing in number and the negative ones VERY GRADUALLY decreasing in number...
From your posts I am reading them and I think a lot of them are going right over your head unnoticed
Your wife IS talking to you, she IS having dinner with you, she IS going to do errands with you yes?
You CAN last a year doing what you are doing now.. there are MANY here that last LONGER than a year and deal with a LOT WORSE than you have... If you think you can't deal with your pain believe me you don't know what pain is yet... You have only tasted a drop of it...
You are right.
What about responses for things outlined above?
Also should I say something to W about not responding to FIL?
like "I seen the text message your father sent you and noticed you did not respond back to him I know he worries about you. At the very least let him know you are OK." and maybe add "You don't need to be happy to be in a good situation. Things are good for you here in our home and he should know that"
I think if you approach your wife with that about her father its just an invitation for her to say "I am not happy here and havne't been for years" again... Just ignore it...
The fact that it says "how's it going" instead of "get out of there NOW" is a good sign in my opinion...
It sounds more like she's been on the fence about leaving and sending him daily reports or something ... whcih again I would take as a positive and leave it alone
Responses to her negative commentary?
You could try something new like NOT reacting. Don't act casual, don't dismiss it, just look at her and hold your reaction... just look at her and watch her... she may just turn away eventually and walk out of hte room
I tried that with my wife when she was cheating and i think it was a good approach to take... I dind't SAY anything, but the fact that I just looked right at her NOT showing anger, joy, or anything other than maybe projecting some dissappointment energy that she's acting like a jeuvenile is all I did... she ended up turning away shamefully and leaving the room...
If your iwfe wants to make you upset and get some reaction... Don't react... don't IGNORE the negative comment... look right at her NOT like you are angry or hostile just like you are waiting for her to say
"Sorry I meant to say..."
Just wait calmly for her to correct the outburst... she may actually correct it or she may just walk away... she may say something like
"what are you looking at..."
YOu can just say
"Just trying to understand why you want to waste energy with non-constructive commentary... no matter... I won't engage that stuff... It's not helping anyone to be negative"
And I would leave hte room FIRST
Trying to talk her into being happy or reasoning with her isn't going to help, she WANTS to argue the negative...
if she has depression she is going to look for any opportunity to reply negatively to what you offer up...
The best thing to do is invite her to keep the commentary constructive like i suggested OR project a positive energy and ignore her commentary completely...
engaging the negative commentary or reacting to it is not going to help you I don't think...
You have to gauge this fully, we can only make a rough assessment here from th forum i'm afraid...
It's not a big deal...
I honestly am thinking your wife is getting some perverse pleasure out of making you squirm and pursue her like this...
Gee, ya
think??? She is getting a focused and determined OfficerInNeed, and all she has to feed him is crap. Why should she even change anything? One may assume she can keep her home life like this, and pick up a new OM for the other needs of hers.
FIL and W do not keep in contact often. I see the logs, they communicate once or twice a week whether it be TM or a call. When the two do not communicate he gets concerned and send W TM asking how she is. When W and FIL were communicating at least once a day via TM or call and when I was seeing FIL every other day going up to the hospital FIL got a better impression of how things were going and said things to me like "be safe" "Love you guys" and kept in touch with me via TM sending me updates on his GF.
This is how a usual conversation between me and my W go.
Sometimes W would spontaneously say "I'll be leaving soon anyway" if I don't respond she will just keep going and talk like such
- I'm leaving anyway
say nothing
- I will talk to my father's lawyer
say nothing
- and I don't know what were going to do about the dog
She will just keep going. I think if I say nothing she will think that I have given up and she'll want out even more because she will feel unwanted.
The one time I responded with "running away is not going to make things better for either of us long term" it seemed to have an affect.
My W is not the type of person to just walk out the room if I stare at her in such a way. She is the type to keep at it to get her point across.
I have been so caught up in the A and OM that I strayed away from actual recommended DB techniques. I will have to get a refresher.
W and I had a descent interaction today for the most part besides a few slip ups on my part my expecting something in return from her and allowing it to affect me.
Also I did something said something stupid...W has naturally curly hair and she is straightening it again today, dont get me wrong it looks good as well but not the same. So I said "Straightening your hair?" she replied "yes" and I said like a nitwit "I don't think <dog name> likes your hair straight" and W looked at the dog and said "Well pup, I make my own decisions and if I want to straighten my hair I will"...I knew that was intended for me.
You could try something new like NOT reacting. Don't act casual, don't dismiss it, just look at her and hold your reaction... just look at her and watch her... she may just turn away eventually and walk out of hte room
She say "WHAT? I am. I put up with this and that for 10 years, I want to be happy..." and that will go on and on until she gets a reaction.
I wanted to know for those who have reconciled, during the time the sitch was bad did your WS express same feeling "ILBNILY" "can never be with you again" "we got married for all the wrong reasons" did they ever 180 since you started to piece back together and say "ILY" or "I am happy with you"...cause as of now I just can't ever see that stage happening.
OIN,
all thru July, 2007 -- my wife tells me (and voice recordings pick up her telling OM): "I can't stay married to Puppy anymore." . . ."I can't STAND you!" . . . "I WANT A DIVORCE!" . . . "Our marriage has been bad for a LONG TIME, and YOU KNOW IT!" . . . "If I have to stay married to (Puppy) much longer, I think I"ll be PHYSICALLY ILL!"
Aug. 19, 2007 -- my wife sends TMs to OM: "I love you" . . . "No one ever did it for me like you before."
Aug. 24, 2007 -- my wife begs me to take her back, sobbing, telling me "You're my home" . . . "I've always loved you" . . . "I can't imagine being married to anyone but you!"VERY normal stuff, OIN -- her brain's a mess right now, chemically.
Puppy
OIN,
I reread my last statement. I am definately not trying to pour salt on you or your situation. Sometimes I have to use cynacism to keep my head. Do what you think you need to do, just like the rest of us. You will know how much you are willing to do and when you are done.
Have a good weekend.
quick question...
I asked my W if she would like to go to the movies today. I would have to call off work to spent the evening with her. W said "if you want" I replied "I would like to but it is really up to you, if your up to it" W then shrugged her shoulders and said "we can go"
I asked W what is the best way to do this. She is going to a wake for co-worker grandmother. I suggested that I drive with her, drop her off at the funeral home and go to a store in the area, when she was done we would go tot he show straight from there...W said we can go when she gets back home, which is senseless because we would have to drive back out that way again...
I made a comment to W about her arm brace and she said "I know somebody already made fun of me about it" as she laughed and I said "I was not making fun of you just commenting is all" and I turned my head back to the news and she said "What!?!?" I asked what in response she said the faces your making as she nods her head walks away and talks to herself.
I wanted to say something but did not.
my question is, Would I be wrong to now go to work canceling out our plan to see the movie? would that leave a bad taste in her mouth? I am just upset about her attitude and her decisions that I don't think it is work me not going to work for her to act like this OR should I just suck it up and be thankful she is willing to go to the show with me?
Why don't you see what's available first... I am big on movies, but if you pick some flighty romance film it's just going to put a sour taste in HER mouth comparing you to some movie star...
I try to be very selective about the films I endorse seeing...
I don't see the harm in the film in general, depending on what it is... Don't take her to some romantic chick flick, you are going to just pale in comparison to some fantasy romance film ...
Why are you two batting around this "i only wanna go if you wanna go" crap...
Why not tell her you want to see x and invite her along... If she says no, you go anyway...
It is a comedy that we both want to see and agreed we would go see. I asked if she wanted to do it this evening. I would not "bat" around it if it did not require for me to call off work to spend the evening with her BUT she is being a 'you know what' so I am debating if I should even call off of work.
If I decide to go to work then I crush the plan and I am wondering if that is a bad move at this point since we agreed to go already.
Whatever you do, don't surprise her. If you changed your mind about the movie, just say so. "Hey, let's do the movie another time. I have work and you have the funeral. We'll do it another day." You are not blaming her for calling it off; you are just calling it off.
Any reason why you didn't keep her company at the wake?
She did not allow me. The wake for a co-worker's grandmother whom W talks to about our sitch. Last thing W wants is for me to be there, will send wrong signal to co-worker.
While W was gone I called off work and decided to go through with the movie.
W returned home. W started to tell me how the wake was and how she met a few people ect... W said I had an attitude which I did not. She does that often I don't necessarily know how to respond to it.
So we were about to head and I realized I needed to mail out my car payment, usually W handles such task (finances) but she has been slipping up as of late. I said to W "I need to write out the check for car payment can you show me how to make it out for future reference?" W did not respond so I said "nevermind I just remembered that pas checks and scanned on posted on banking website I will log on there and look at a past check and use it as an example" W did not like that, she rolled her eyes and shook her head and said "I'll do it, its ok" so W did it and I thanked her, W then questioned "whats you problem?" and I said I have none, she ask that often as well.
We went to a store looked at some new bedding, we were pointing out the sets we each like after a short while W said "well it is up to you whatever you want" we ended up getting a few things for the house. I started to pay and W said she had it, I insisted but then she said "I'll pay for this you pay for the movie" and so we agreed...
we headed to the movie. IT was good, we had some laughs ad exchanged words during the movie, overall pretty good time. Movie ended we exited the theater, it was pouring rain so I told W to wait inside adn I will get the car. W waited inside I went and got car. We then headed home and had a couple convos on the way.
A lot of bitterness and her assuming something is wrong with me....
She's playing games with you. Don't fall for them. She knows how to push your buttons and she's doing it now because the OM isn't around as a distraction any more. You've become the bad guy again.
I had a major slip up today.
Yesterday W agreed to go with me to a ball game today. When W returned home from work today she was her typical WAS self. She had not mentioned anything about the game but I assumed our plans were still on.
Time to head to the game W was sleeping I asked her if she was still going with and she said NO, she wanted to just sleep. This just blew my mind.
I admit I let it get to me more than it should but I was caught off guard. I then asked w a question I guess she had said yes I did not hear her so I asked "was that a yes or no" she got loud and said "I said yes, god" and I saod "god what?" She replies "you and your attitude" then she mocked me..I then said "I have no attitude I was npt able to hear you" W just remained silent and I said I was leaving and left
Yes, I may have had a little frustration In my tone but I lost focus and did not have my blinders up. finding her terrible attitude hard to deal with. Not to mention she was on a WAS high when she got home listening to music about leaving,and moving on during her drive
home from work
OIN,
It seems to me, that there's a whole swath of middle, grey ground, between the the "black" of these types of passive-aggressive exchanges, and the "white" of completely kissing this woman's ass.
I'd suggest you learn the grey. That's where you'll get your best results.
Puppy
Explain the grey area.
My big concern is not filling the void and allowing her to become attached to an OM and more detach to our M.
OIN, how are you going to handle children or teenagers?
I know your wife is different and they just have a way of bringing out the fury in their mates, but this is something you need to work on... you SHOULD be able to listen to her crap and not bat an eye... You need to get to a place in yourself where you can do that.. it's
essential in your personal development to cultivate that talent...
Take a yoga course
Learn some eastern medication
Count to 10
Get some sort of habit put together that you turn to when this stuff comes up...
I know your wife is a different case, but when a spouse is wayward they will act like a child and YOU need to find a way to NOT get sucked into that and REACT like a child yourself... When your spouse goes wayward YOU need to be the ADULT... And adults have control of their emotions ...they don't simply react to what's thrown at them on instinct...Adults
choose their actions... They don't just let them happen.
Keep your chin up and your temper in check man... you're doin well...
Explain the grey area.
My big concern is not filling the void and allowing her to become attached to an OM and more detach to our M.
Grey is being upbeat, but not placating her.
Grey is being confident, but not pursuing.
Grey is calling her on her rude behavior, but not being an ass about it, and saying something like "Look, you don't have to be a jerk about it. If you don't want to go, just say so -- I'm not a mind-reader. I'm gonna go; let me know if you change your mind."
It's taking a strong, leading position, respecting yourself to not put up with her crap behavior, but staying upbeat about it all.
I go back to what I first posted to you, and that is BOTH of you seem to feel like it's okay for her to treat you like crap NOW, because you used to treat HER like crap BEFORE.
It ain't healthy, she's pushing your buttons over and over because she knows you're riddled with guilt and are going to let her do it, and the dysfunction merely continues.
STOP.
Puppy
I know your wife is different and they just have a way of bringing out the fury in their mates, but this is something you need to work on... you SHOULD be able to listen to her crap and not bat an eye... You need to get to a place in yourself where you can do that.. it's essential in your personal development to cultivate that talent...
Since when it is a "talent" to be cultivated, to allow others to treat you like crap?
I DISAGREE. OIN needs to learn the art of CALLING PEOPLE on their crap behavior, and doing it in a strong, detached, loving way.
Button-pushing is one thing. A pattern of repeated rude, boorish and disrespectful behavior is quite another. The ONLY thing different in this situation is that OIN used to treat his wife poorly in the past; so why should that change our advice to the two of them NOW? They BOTH need to learn to demand courteous, respectful treatment from each other, and to be able to call "b.s." on each other when that line is crossed, and do it in a way that doesn't harm their relationship. Heck, if done correctly, it can STRENGTHEN their relationship.
Puppy
I think we are talking about the same thing here Pup.
I agree he should say something when his wife is bitter, I just don't think being bitter back is constructive.
I do think it takes time to cultivate a talent to control oneself or as you would put it "detach" and respond constructively...
I am all for speaking up and saying something, but before you can do that you need to get control of your instinctive responses... those are killers...
Once you can control your instincts you can choose to say something constructive that yes will strengthen the relationship...
We are both talking about the same thing pup, just different parts, my focus is on controling instincts, yours is on speaking up constructively
You need to be able to do both to pull off the mature adult thing... you can't do one without the other...
yes, controlling onself and NOt saying anything isn't helpful either, but I don't think one can speak up until they have their instincts in check... or they will just do damage and get sucked in...
Here is the deal. Sometimes I get offensive toward W as in "Why is she acting like this" and actually hold a grudge and project resentment toward W. I am having trouble detaching in a healthy way. My way of detaching is getting upset with the way she treats me and just say "whatever" tricking myself. When I try any other approach I get attached and allow her words and action affect me to the point I get let down or my feelings get hurt.
While I was gone I read what you all had to say and realized I handled what happened earlier in the wrong manner and allowed my buttons to be pushed. I don't think it was an instance where she was trying to push my buttons, I think I was so upset that she was not going that I was nearly lashing out at her by being a jerk in a way.
When I returned W was still sleeping, she woke up and said her stomach was upset. W then asked who won the game and I said "It was a great game, you would had enjoyed yourself." If I'm not mistaken she may have rolled her eyes.
We then talked about the dog and she went back to sleep...
Well, if your way of detaching is getting upset and saying "whatever" then you are not detaching in a healthy or proper way.
I don't understand why you wonder why your W is acting like this. I think we all know why. She wants OM and can't have him. Her fantasy has been busted by her job and you. She views you as the obstacle to her happiness. She also sounds highly depressed and in need of some sort of medical assistance for her mental health.
It is not normal for a grown woman to sleep and watch as much tv as your W does. It certainly is not normal for a grown woman to mumble as a form of communication as your W does. It is not normal for a grown woman to need somebody to make her something to eat as much as your W requests. It is not normal for a grown woman to communicate to her H through a dog. It's all beyond bizarre and I type this as a person who (A) does have a chronic and incurable disease but I can get it together better than your W (B) who lived in such a highly depressive state for over a year I thought I would die and (C) who eventually developed a situational clinic panic disorder.
I know you treated your W very bad in the past and that is a shame. But now she is treating you very, very bad and not only is it a shame it is all very premeditated IMO. And that doesn't make her somebody that is confused or lost, no, quite frankly it makes her a very undesirable human being to even read about let alone have to be around in person.
I don't believe in the "fog" and all that BS. Your W knows exactly what she is doing OR she is deeply mentally disturbed (I don't think she is).
Personally, until she decides to communicate with you in ways that don't emulate a deaf mute then I would just leave her be and get on with your life. The more I read about her the more ridiculous and cruel she seems.
The more I read about her the more ridiculous and cruel she seems.
I am not even going to tell anybody why reading that makes me feel so good.
how do I break the cycle without being destructive to all my DB efforts? Trust that I hate going through this as much as you all cannot stand reading it. Take this morning for example...
I wake up and W is getting ready for work. W is sitting on the bed beside me...I was unsure but thought I heard rain so I ask "is it raining outside" W continues doing what she is doing and responds "uh huh" then gets up and walks away.
I fall back to sleep but once again wake up just as she is walking out the bedroom to head downstairs. usually I get up to see her out the door and lock the doors behind her. Mainly because she has trouble locking them herself.
I left the window open in the living room and water was splashing through the screen so I was attempting to close the window which was jammed and W asked with an attitude "did you put my keys back in my purse" I said "yes" and maybe had a little excitement in my tone 1. I was trying to close the window and 2. She watched me put the keys in her purse once I returned home last night so as a result she responds "Whats with the attitude"
W then just about to walk out the door and I ask "are you going to need the umbrella?" because I know where it is and I don't think she does but either way she said "huh?" and I repeated myself and she said "no"
Then W started to walk out the door and asked that I close all the door behind her, sure why not and as I was doing so I said "bye" and W gave a soft "bye" in response.
W ran to her car and after she got in I seen her scanning through her iPod, more than likely throwing on her WAS mix.
W then just about to walk out the door and I ask "are you going to need the umbrella?"
Stop trying to be her servant. I keep reading examples of you doing that in your thread, and it's not working.
She's a grown up, and if she wants to go out in the rain without an umbrella, let her, and if she asks where the umbrella is, then tell her if you happen to know (don't even help look for it unless she asks).
Take all of that energy you are expending on her, and use some of it on yourself. I don't care if it is just something simple like taking your dog for a walk. Get out and do something for you when she is being like this. Give yourself a break from it.
Questions: when was the last time this woman complimented you? Name three things she has said she liked about you.
how do I break the cycle without being destructive to all my DB efforts?
I don't see where your efforts are currently working. That's why I'm recommending a different approaching.
Doing "x" has yielded you "y." Try something different. THAT is what DBing is all about -- doing what works, and STOP doing what isn't!
Puppy
usually I get up to see her out the door and lock the doors behind her. Mainly because she has trouble locking them herself.
W then just about to walk out the door and I ask "are you going to need the umbrella?" because I know where it is and I don't think she does but either way she said "huh?" and I repeated myself and she said "no"
Why does she have trouble locking the doors?
And can she not get an umbrella for herself?
This is the kind of supplicating behavior that I think is not only working, it's making things WORSE. If your wife is going to respond to you, she needs to first RESPECT you. These pursuing/placating/supplicating behaviors are KILLING respect, not building it. And since women tie their feelings of love very closely with their feelings of respect, you've got a problem.
Puppy
OIN, a couple of examples from this morning's exchange of what I'm suggesting:
Take this morning for example...
I wake up and W is getting ready for work. W is sitting on the bed beside me...I was unsure but thought I heard rain so I ask "is it raining outside" W continues doing what she is doing and responds "uh huh" then gets up and walks away.
Try doing this as a STATEMENT, and not a question. "Sounds like it's raining outside; I needed to mow the lawn today" or "I didn't know they were calling for rain today," or whatever. You ask your wife SO many questions, trying to elicit positive exchanges with her, and I think they just annoy her and her mumbling responses only leave you frustrated.
I fall back to sleep but once again wake up just as she is walking out the bedroom to head downstairs. usually I get up to see her out the door and lock the doors behind her. Mainly because she has trouble locking them herself.
Let her see herself out if you're tired. If you're already up, then fine, but don't follow after her like a servant. When you get up, check the doors. If they need to be locked, then lock them -- no big deal. LET HER DO MORE FOR HERSELF.
I left the window open in the living room and water was splashing through the screen so I was attempting to close the window which was jammed and W asked with an attitude "did you put my keys back in my purse"
A: "Yes, I did, but you don't need to be snotty about it." If she persists with the snotty tone, refuse to engage with her and leave the room.
W then just about to walk out the door and I ask "are you going to need the umbrella?" because I know where it is and I don't think she does but either way she said "huh?" and I repeated myself and she said "no"
See above.
Then W started to walk out the door and asked that I close all the door behind her, sure why not and as I was doing so I said "bye" and W gave a soft "bye" in response.
Not bad. Maybe say something like "Yeah, don't worry, I'll get that in a minute," and try not to literally follow after her to do it.
W ran to her car and after she got in I seen her scanning through her iPod, more than likely throwing on her WAS mix.
Why are you driving yourself nuts observing her every little action? This comes SCREAMING THRU in all of your posts, and if we notice it, I guaran-damn-tee you your wife notices it and feels like you're smothering her, judging her, and watching her every little move constantly. After you said goodbye, let her go to her car unobserved, and try not to read something negative ("more than likely throwing on her WAS mix") into everything she does when you DO observe it.
As TH says above, OIN, you need to stop obsessing over your wife and do some things for YOU. You're driving yourself crazy here, and only annoying her in the process.
Puppy
Questions: when was the last time this woman complimented you? Name three things she has said she liked about you.
She has not since our sitch began back in January. She us ect always. Well I don't know if this is a compliment or not but one day last week when she was telling me that she is "done" she said "I use to think yo were everything." I drop compliments to her whenever possible. The reason why is I use to put her down more than compliment her in the past. She always brings it up. I overheard how OM complimented her and this is how her obsession grew for him. Her gave her the attention and words I failed to give to her. I want her to know that I do find her to be very attractive contrary to what I might had said in the past.
Why does she have trouble locking the doors?
And can she not get an umbrella for herself?
I am just trying to be the H she always wanted me to be. I know before our sitch if I had done these things there would be no sitch right now to talk about.
Let her see herself out if you're tired. If you're already up, then fine, but don't follow after her like a servant. When you get up, check the doors. If they need to be locked, then lock them -- no big deal. LET HER DO MORE FOR HERSELF.
If I was not already up she would had said to me "I'm leaving for work." Just something we have ALWAYS done, let each other know we are leaving for work. I remember before our sitch sometimes I would just leave for work and not say anything, just leave, and she would call me on the phone so upset because I did not say "bye" (upset as an hurt not angry).
A: "Yes, I did, but you don't need to be snotty about it." If she persists with the snotty tone, refuse to engage with her and leave the room.
Her response: "I'm not being snotty, you are the one who has the attitude"
I am looking for all the advice I can get but do you think if I gave that response that it would just start an argument? and to me using the word "snotty" sounds juvenile and entices a negative response from her. it may also lead her to think a button had been pushed.
Why are you driving yourself nuts observing her every little action? This comes SCREAMING THRU in all of your posts, and if we notice it, I guaran-damn-tee you your wife notices it and feels like you're smothering her, judging her, and watching her every little move constantly. After you said goodbye, let her go to her car unobserved, and try not to read something negative ("more than likely throwing on her WAS mix") into everything she does when you DO observe it.
My W in her WAS state had made her so vulnerable that is so easily influenced tot he point where a song can tell her what to do. Over the past 4 months I seen her become obsessed with OM, let songs dictate her action and now it seems like she is becoming female co-worker's flunky. She is using music (one song in particular) to help her make decisions for our marriage.
I forgot to mention that W txt me when she got to work (PURSUIT ALERT)
W: it is WET out there!
Me: It is, I can her it coming down, hope your hair did not get wet because it looked great today
I was speaking in the way she styled it. If I don't compliment her surely someone else will and she may think "strangers and co-workers compliment me but not my W"
I feel deep down she wants to hear this stuff, she wants me to say as I feel but knowing her she will not give a reaction because as she would put it "I don't want you to know I am vulnerable."
That's why I ask more a more constructive way to compliment her that does not make it sound like pursuit.
I think the best way to compliment her that doens't sound like pursuit is to put it in the context of something else...
"Be sure to take an umbrella, your hair looks good and you likely don't want to mess it up"
The focus of this sentence is just to give her factual advice about the umbrella... It's similar to what you said, but the compliment is in the middle, it isn't hanging on the end.
Her response: "I'm not being snotty, you are the one who has the attitude"
I am looking for all the advice I can get but do you think if I gave that response that it would just start an argument? and to me using the word "snotty" sounds juvenile and entices a negative response from her. it may also lead her to think a button had been pushed.
Try talking to her in an adult, negotiating way. "I think we have misunderstandings because of the way we talk to each other. I will try not to have an attitude with you, if you will try not to have an attitude with me. To help us recognize those times when we might misunderstand, let's just ask nicely if the other person is mad before we assume there is an attitude problem. After all, our lives will be better if we try to get along.'
ry talking to her in an adult, negotiating way. "I think we have misunderstandings because of the way we talk to each other. I will try not to have an attitude with you, if you will try not to have an attitude with me. To help us recognize those times when we might misunderstand, let's just ask nicely if the other person is mad before we assume there is an attitude problem. After all, our lives will be better if we try to get along.'
This is similar to the whole "same respect you would give a stranger talk" where my W said "I will do as I feel." One day this lasted. The very next day I said bye and she said nothing. It is very intermittent. She does say 'thank you' however. She does not say "your welcome" at all.
I will give this a try, do I just bring it up and wait for the next time she tells me I have an attitude?
I wanted to know for those who have reconciled, during the time the sitch was bad did your WS express same feeling "ILBNILY" "can never be with you again" "we got married for all the wrong reasons" did they ever 180 since you started to piece back together and say "ILY" or "I am happy with you"...cause as of now I just can't ever see that stage happening.
OIN, I'm going thru the same situation. Month # 22 and counting. It was just recently my wife started to lean on me while watching tv. It's a loooooong process. Our sex life isn't that bad as yours (1-2 times a week from 0). I remember 5 months back I touched her breath and she blasted in flames. Now I can touch her and she say nothing. Make love, try to reconnect.
Thanks dgtal, this confirms what I was saying before... a YEAR was the estimate I gave earlier... 22 months sounds about right to be where you are now... If you were still where OIN was at after 22 months I would wonder myself, but OIN is still in the early stages... very early...
I will give this a try, do I just bring it up and wait for the next time she tells me I have an attitude?
You could do it either way, whatever you feel more comfortable with. Whether you like it or not, your wife resists growing up. Just because she doesn't like suggestions that she conduct herself like an adult is no reason to stop letting her know that it is what you expect from her. People will try to get away with whatever they think they can get away with. Thank you is more important than your welcome anyway. An English friend once told me they don't say your welcome. Someone says thank you and no reply is needed. Perhaps someone from England will comment on that.
Why does she have trouble locking the doors?
And can she not get an umbrella for herself?
I am just trying to be the H she always wanted me to be. I know before our sitch if I had done these things there would be no sitch right now to talk about.
But you said she had "trouble" locking the doors. Why?
Quote:
Let her see herself out if you're tired. If you're already up, then fine, but don't follow after her like a servant. When you get up, check the doors. If they need to be locked, then lock them -- no big deal. LET HER DO MORE FOR HERSELF.
If I was not already up she would had said to me "I'm leaving for work." Just something we have ALWAYS done, let each other know we are leaving for work. I remember before our sitch sometimes I would just leave for work and not say anything, just leave, and she would call me on the phone so upset because I did not say "bye" (upset as an hurt not angry).
I'm not saying that you guys shouldn't let each other know when you're leaving. I'm saying that when she tells you, there's no need to get up out of bed and follow after her like a puppy dog.
Her response: "I'm not being snotty, you are the one who has the attitude"
I am looking for all the advice I can get but do you think if I gave that response that it would just start an argument? and to me using the word "snotty" sounds juvenile and entices a negative response from her. it may also lead her to think a button had been pushed.
Are you saying you THINK that's what her response would be, or that you tried this, and she said that?
As for the word "snotty," I like to call a spade a spade, and she IS being snotty to you. As for "starting an argument," sometimes you have to break a couple of eggs to make an omelette. I'm NOT saying to go around LOOKING for a fight, but -- in drawing a boundary -- sometimes one has to endure some short-term resistance in order to gain the long-term respect. Once you get better at this (learning to do it in a calm, loving -- but firm -- way), you'll usually have to do it only ONCE.
As for the last part of my post (about smothering her, and observing every little thing she does), and your response to it, I just don't think you're getting it. You have answers and justifications for everything you're doing, OIN, but
IT'S . . .JUST . . . NOT . . . WORKING.Why not try something different???
Puppy
I understand you are trying very hard to change and rectify the hurt you caused your W for a very long time because you treated her poorly. I think the issue is the way you are trying to change may not be the best way.
Every couple has weird little quirks but if you add up all the weird little quirks you and your W have it is a bit disturbing IMO.
If your W can maneuver a flat iron/curling iron, operate a vehicle/ipod/computer/cell phone/remote control and function at work then why can't she lock a door in her own home? Do you see why that comes off as beyond bizarre? And even more bizarre is the fact you continue to do such a basic task for her. It almost seems like the two of you have a R that is not a husband and wife who are at odds with one another but more like you are the lonely/overbearing parent and she is the spoiled/sullen teenager.
All these strange rituals the two of you have seem to block the building of equality/respect and simple fuel this odd dynamic the two of you share.
If your W can operate a motor vehicle and technology she can lock a door. And if she cannot work the lock why not ask her to take a ride to the hardware store with you so the two of you can choose a lock that you both can work? IMO such a simple action could really go a long way to stop the cycle of the very odd rituals the two of you seem to have.
What you perceive as actions towards being a good H (doing EVERYTHING for your W and essentially following her around and having to cajole her into acting normal) are really adding to the toxicity of the R you two share.
I know you are trying here and that is good. Very good. I just think it might be time to do something else.
CG, you said it much better -- and much more sympathetically -- than I did.
I'm sorry if my posts were overly harsh, OIN. CG's post better sums up what I was trying to convey.
Puppy
Understood. To answer the question, yes she is very well capable of locking the door herself, there were times in the past where so would only lock one hatch and the door would pop open. On the nights I have work she handles the task very well. I do it more because I like to say bye just before she walks out the door, it is something she use to always do for me and no longer does obviously (walk me to the door with lunch in hand, hug and kiss me before I left). So I will stop.
While W was at work I decided to put up the new shelves I purchased for the living room wall. While I was putting the shelves up W came home from work, she fooled with the dog for a little bit then went upstairs where she remained as I finished putting the new shelves up. A little while later I went upstairs we had a little conversation, I went back down stairs, W eventually came down herself.
On the shelves were two framed pictures of her grandmother that had been on the shelves I took down. These pictures had been displayed in our living room since day one. W took the pictures off the new shelves. I asked as to why she took them down (not those exact words but in a very kind manner) W just shrugged her shoulders. I said nothing. W took the pictures upstairs and placed them on her nightstand.
While I was putting the shelves up W came home from work, she fooled with the dog for a little bit then went upstairs where she remained as I finished putting the new shelves up. A little while later I went upstairs we had a little conversation, I went back down stairs, W eventually came down herself. . . .
Try to let her come to YOU. See what happens.
Puppy
OIN, I'm going thru the same situation. Month # 22 and counting. It was just recently my wife started to lean on me while watching tv. It's a loooooong process. Our sex life isn't that bad as yours (1-2 times a week from 0). I remember 5 months back I touched her breath and she blasted in flames. Now I can touch her and she say nothing. Make love, try to reconnect.
Did you W ever threaten to move out the house or actually move out the house?
Today when I walked in the room for the first time after W came home from work, there was scent I could not figure out where it was coming from. I made a comment to my W about it. She said she was not sure where it was coming from either and did not smell it herself. While laying net to her in bed, I said "excuse me for a moment" I slightly leaned toward her and attempted to smell her hair (I know but that's I thought it was coming from) she jumped back as if I was attempting to bite her head off and had the dirtiest look on her face. Kills me because I know if it were anyone else she would not had reacted in such a way.
While I was putting the shelves up W came home from work, she fooled with the dog for a little bit then went upstairs where she remained as I finished putting the new shelves up. A little while later I went upstairs we had a little conversation, I went back down stairs, W eventually came down herself. . . .
Try to let her come to YOU. See what happens.
Puppy
I do. When she is watching TV downstairs I go upstairs, 8 out of 10 times she would shortly follow BUT it doe snot happen the other way. If I am downstairs and she is up she won't come down.
I did not go up to pursue her but rather to retrieve something from the bedroom.
What do you find odd or are you being sarcastic?
I think your intentions are good but the execution is off.
Now really think about what you just wrote. She came home from work and her first communication was again with the dog. She went upstairs to pout until you went up there.
She is not blind and saw you putting up shelves. Once she realized you were done she went downstairs to make her juvenile statement of.. OIN, nothing you do is good enough ya dumb ass and I am going to take down the photos just to get a rise out of you.
Again, shrugging her shoulders is not an acceptable form of communication when you are asked a direct question. Since your W's preferred method of communication is grunts, moans and a variety of other sounds the way to avoid having to be exposed to this is stop asking her questions you know there is no good answer to.
Do you think if you had not put up new shelves she would have randomly made the grand gesture to remove photos from the old shelves? My guess is no, she would not have. She simply wanted a way to undermine the effort you put forth in hanging the new shelves.
She started this exchange with a toxic gesture. Instead of detaching yourself from her BS you responded with a toxic question. Now I understand it was not an unreasonable question but given your W's behavior when she acts like a silly child she will respond like one when questioned. So, don't question her.
Now really think about what you just wrote. She came home from work and her first communication was again with the dog. She went upstairs to pout until you went up there.
When I walked in the room she was playing "family feud" on the computer lol.
Do you think if you had not put up new shelves she would have randomly made the grand gesture to remove photos from the old shelves? My guess is no, she would not have. She simply wanted a way to undermine the effort you put forth in hanging the new shelves.
Or maybe she seen the photos as an anchor...She leaves them up then that is her implying she is comfortable here and will stay. She does not want to give me that impression so she took them away.
Now what if I took down my one photo now on the the shelf and put it on my nightstand? she will ask "why did you do that?" and I will say "the shelf was intended to hold these pictures and is not being used for that purpose so I too brought my photo upstairs until I decide what will go up"
Again, shrugging her shoulders is not an acceptable form of communication when you are asked a direct question. Since your W's preferred method of communication is grunts, moans and a variety of other sounds the way to avoid having to be exposed to this is stop asking her questions you know there is no good answer to.
Another way she communicates in through the dog. She will say "<dog name> go get me something from the fridge" and I know it is intended for me.
And something that took place today... I was eating something and W ask "Are there any more of those" and I responded "I believe so, did you want any?" she mumbled "unndunnnooo" but shook her head yes.
Playing the tit for tat game (you taking down a photo and putting it on your nightstand just like she did) will get you nowhere and only fuel the cycle of negativity.
Does it really matter why she took the photo down? It doesn't really and I doubt she is going to say "OIN, I took the photo down because I enjoy being a total bitch to you" and I really doubt she is going to say "OIN, I took the photo down because I might not be living here much longer". All she is going to do is grunt so why bother asking?
The next time your W communicates through the dog why not just say "W, if you would like me to do something for you please ask me directly and not ask through the dog".
And while she may have been playing a game on the computer my point was she came home and gave attention to the dog then went upstairs to isolate herself while paying you no mind at all. She may have not been pouting in the actual sense but it *is* her form of a pouting ritual that you seem to respond to each and every time.
Like today when your W asked if there was more of what you were eating. Why not just say "yes, W, there are more <insert food item here>" and leave it at that. Instead you got yet another mumbled response when asking her if she wanted some.
I would start saying in a polite yet firm fashion "W, I am unable to decipher what grunts, moans and mumbles mean. Please use words when communicating with me". I mean c'mon, do you think she could grunt and mumble at work and not be told not speaking is not acceptable?
Your W doesn't seem ready to treat you or look at you like a H or even a friend but that doesn't give her a free pass to treat you like garbage.
If your W doesn't want to communicate with you sans dog or mumbles that is her choice but at least you put it out there that it doesn't work for you any longer.
So I gave it a try. I remained downstairs while W was up in bed watching TV. A show we usually watch on Sunday's at 7pm was near starting. W had walked downstairs "acted" as if she was going to get something from the kitchen and said "the show will be starting soon" I responded "oh it is that time already?" she replied yes...then she said "I have to go up stairs and turn the channel" so I made my way up and we realized that the show was not on today. I walked back downstairs, W then came down and was looking on the digital TV guide to see when the show will be airing. W then laid down on the couch.
W the began to moan that her stomach still hurt I asked "Did you take anything for it?" she said "yes" she then asked if I could grab her phone from upstairs...sure I did.
W was never so attached to her phone. She would leave it laying around and at times forget where she put it now it is always on her as if she is anticipating a call or TM. I monitor her logs, I see nothing coming in except for her father and female co-worker who has been her "support" through this all (as in OM situation).
W said I had an attitude which I did not. She does that often I don't necessarily know how to respond to it.
W then questioned "whats you problem?" and I said I have none, she ask that often as well.
She's pushing your buttons and you are falling for it. She resents the hell out of you. That, to me, is a byproduct of you past controlling behavior. Like someone had mentioned before, you had a parent-child relationship. Eventually, children rebel. She's doing it now. I've been in your exact position. I was pretty controlling at times. I got the same type of comments, snide remarks, and dirty looks. The comment about the hair straightening was texbook interaction. My suggestion would be not to take it all so personally. Be positive, be very cognitive of any critical statements you make. I still think that you should stand up for yourself, in a non-confrontational way, that you expect she communicate with you respectfully.
W said I had an attitude which I did not. She does that often I don't necessarily know how to respond to it.
W then questioned "whats you problem?" and I said I have none, she ask that often as well.
She's pushing your buttons and you are falling for it. She resents the hell out of you. That, to me, is a byproduct of you past controlling behavior. Like someone had mentioned before, you had a parent-child relationship. Eventually, children rebel. She's doing it now. I've been in your exact position. I was pretty controlling at times. I got the same type of comments, snide remarks, and dirty looks. The comment about the hair straightening was texbook interaction. My suggestion would be not to take it all so personally. Be positive, be very cognitive of any critical statements you make. I still think that you should stand up for yourself, in a non-confrontational way, that you expect she communicate with you respectfully.
The only thing I control now is my anger. I need to learn to control my emotions. Just a short while ago I guess we had a descent exchange.
W laying on couch talking about how bad her stomach hurts and speaking to the dog as if it is going to do anything for her. few mins later same thing, she rolls over and says "ohhhhh my stomach." Usually when her stomach is upset she does an array of things so I asked if she tried any of those remedies so got a little attitude and said "emm ummm" so I said "that is not necessary, I am just concerned for your well being" W said nothing after a pause she then asked if I could grab a blanket. I did, I laid it over her and she thanked me after.
This is were I have trouble finding that gray area...if W ask for something and I do it, is that pursuit?
W said I had an attitude which I did not. She does that often I don't necessarily know how to respond to it.
W then questioned "whats you problem?" and I said I have none, she ask that often as well.
She's pushing your buttons and you are falling for it. She resents the hell out of you. That, to me, is a byproduct of you past controlling behavior. Like someone had mentioned before, you had a parent-child relationship. Eventually, children rebel. She's doing it now. I've been in your exact position. I was pretty controlling at times. I got the same type of comments, snide remarks, and dirty looks. The comment about the hair straightening was texbook interaction. My suggestion would be not to take it all so personally. Be positive, be very cognitive of any critical statements you make. I still think that you should stand up for yourself, in a non-confrontational way, that you expect she communicate with you respectfully.
The only thing I control now is my anger. I need to learn to control my emotions. Just a short while ago I guess we had a descent exchange.
W laying on couch talking about how bad her stomach hurts and speaking to the dog as if it is going to do anything for her. few mins later same thing, she rolls over and says "ohhhhh my stomach." Usually when her stomach is upset she does an array of things so I asked if she tried any of those remedies so got a little attitude and said "emm ummm" so I said "that is not necessary, I am just concerned for your well being" W said nothing after a pause she then asked if I could grab a blanket. I did, I laid it over her and she thanked me after.
This is were I have trouble finding that gray area...if W ask for something and I do it, is that pursuit?
I understand, bro. I've had to deal with that same resentment as you are now. Its tough. You were previously controlling because you are/were insecure. Now, by being a WAS, she has kicked that insecurity into overdrive. Thats why your putting every word/gesture/action under a microscope. Please stop. I know how hard it is. Its only going to make it harder for you to DB. You're still being reactive instead of responsive. After 10 years she knows everything about you. Including how to push your buttons and hurt you. You cant change her but you can change youor triggers and you can create boundaries. You are just empowering her poor behavior.
Like Puppy said, you really need to focus of what works. No one here doubts your efforts, you are definately fighting for you marriage. Try to maximize your efforts by doing what works. My .02
I think you need to refrain from helping her at all and simply validate her when she CHOOSES to communicate you with words and not noises.
Like when she was on the sofa moaning about her stomach and she told you she had a stomach ache... all you should have said was "sorry to hear that" or "sounds painful" or something like that. Instead you wanted to fix things by making sure she took medicine. Again, she is a grown up and if she does not feel well she knows to take meds or see a dr. Her moaning was then rewarded by you running another errand for her (getting her phone and getting her a blanket).
I think you need to try a variety of approaches but stay firm with the notion of NO MORE SOUNDS OR TALKING TO YOU THROUGH THE DOG and if she does that you will not respond or do things for her. You will not be ugly or snide about it but you simply will not engage with her unless she decides to speak to you directly and with words. IMO unless this changes you will go bonkers as it is so terribly unhealthy to live in an environment like that.
When is the last time your W had a physical and blood work? She doesn't sound well at all. She is in bed or resting way too much and it seems like there is always something wrong with her. Either she is not healthy or her anger/resentment/depression is manifesting in a physical way I think. I take it neither you or your W are not elderly so I am very confused as to why she is ALWAYS laying down.
I think you need to at least try and set an example that laying around and watching tv all the time is not a good quality of life no matter what the status of your marriage is. If the show ya'll wanted to watch was not on why not cheerfully say "I think I will take a walk or bike ride, care to join me?" If she says no then fine, let her lay around and moan but at least you will be out aiming for something more than watching her behave this way.
From what you have posted it seems like you like to go out and do things... you mentioned movies, baseball games, concerts and so on. If your W doesn't want to go don't cajole her into going. Ask once and if she declines just go on your merry way. You need more enjoyment in your life and you won't find it watching your W lay around the house all the time.
She doesn't like her job (stressful as you said), no longer enjoys going to work because of the OM situation and clearly cannot tolerate being at home. If you don't remove yourself in some way, even if just for a little while, something is going to blow.
Have you ever considered seeing an IC? I think you are aware tools exist for this type of situation and I think you want to use them but it sort of seems you just don't know how to (yet).
Honestly just reading about the way your W communicates with noise and through the dog is stressful to me. I can't imagine having to live with it.
I think you need to refrain from helping her at all and simply validate her when she CHOOSES to communicate you with words and not noises.
Like when she was on the sofa moaning about her stomach and she told you she had a stomach ache... all you should have said was "sorry to hear that" or "sounds painful" or something like that. Instead you wanted to fix things by making sure she took medicine. Again, she is a grown up and if she does not feel well she knows to take meds or see a dr. Her moaning was then rewarded by you running another errand for her (getting her phone and getting her a blanket).
I think you need to try a variety of approaches but stay firm with the notion of NO MORE SOUNDS OR TALKING TO YOU THROUGH THE DOG and if she does that you will not respond or do things for her. You will not be ugly or snide about it but you simply will not engage with her unless she decides to speak to you directly and with words. IMO unless this changes you will go bonkers as it is so terribly unhealthy to live in an environment like that.
When is the last time your W had a physical and blood work? She doesn't sound well at all. She is in bed or resting way too much and it seems like there is always something wrong with her. Either she is not healthy or her anger/resentment/depression is manifesting in a physical way I think. I take it neither you or your W are not elderly so I am very confused as to why she is ALWAYS laying down.
I think you need to at least try and set an example that laying around and watching tv all the time is not a good quality of life no matter what the status of your marriage is. If the show ya'll wanted to watch was not on why not cheerfully say "I think I will take a walk or bike ride, care to join me?" If she says no then fine, let her lay around and moan but at least you will be out aiming for something more than watching her behave this way.
From what you have posted it seems like you like to go out and do things... you mentioned movies, baseball games, concerts and so on. If your W doesn't want to go don't cajole her into going. Ask once and if she declines just go on your merry way. You need more enjoyment in your life and you won't find it watching your W lay around the house all the time.
She doesn't like her job (stressful as you said), no longer enjoys going to work because of the OM situation and clearly cannot tolerate being at home. If you don't remove yourself in some way, even if just for a little while, something is going to blow.
Have you ever considered seeing an IC? I think you are aware tools exist for this type of situation and I think you want to use them but it sort of seems you just don't know how to (yet).
Honestly just reading about the way your W communicates with noise and through the dog is stressful to me. I can't imagine having to live with it.
I do the things she asks because in the past I would not. This is a 180 for me. Also if I do not care for my W when she is ill then she will find someone who will.
Yes, W does have health issues. Allergies, herniated disc in her back. pinched nerve in the neck, knee problems and a host of other little things. She is depressed (refuses to see therapist). She works from 4am-12pm, she cannot handle the schedule.
I on the other hand, I am very active. I job requires for it. I work out 3-4 times per week. I play semi-professional football.
Actually we go out and do things, often. Not as often as we use to. (BTW when I said ball game I meant football, I hate baseball)
Sorry, I assumed baseball as it is summer and I didn't know football was around this time of year!
I understand you are trying to do a 180 by being more helpful to your W but IMO it seems you are rewarding very bad behavior. And honestly, the way your W carries on I doubt she will find anybody that would tolerate it for any length of time.
I am sorry to hear of your W's health problems. It is not easy living with chronic physical pain and even in a perfect marriage, enduring constant physical pain is tough. Her behavior makes a little more (but not much) sense now. Many of her problems though that really put a very dark cloud over your household have solutions yet she refuses to investigate alternative options. Not much you can do about that other than steer clear of getting sucked in to it any further than you already are.
I know you go out and do things often but as I understand it, it seems to take a good bit of prodding and pleading on your part to get her out of the house.
I guess what I am saying is ANYBODY can find "somebody" else and just because that is an available option to your W (or anybody for that matter) it doesn't mean you have to put up with her garbage so doesn't find somebody else.
Point taken.
Now here is something that just occurred. As I said earlier W was looking for what time show came on. We seen it was 11pm. W fell to sleep on the couch in living room. At 11pm, I got up, turned the TV off and left W sleeping on couch as I went upstairs and watch the show. W knew I went upstairs as she woke up as I started to head up the stairs. I assumed if she wanted to watch the show with me she would have got up and came upstairs OR was it wrong of me to just get up and walk away and not inviting her to watch the show...? This is where my confusing lies
This morning W woke up before I did and went downstairs, to eat and then I guess she settled on the couch to watch TV ( I heard it). I eventually woke up and headed down myself, when I got down there W was watching TV, I sat on other couch and W began to talk to me about the funny things the dog had done since she had been up. I went back upstairs shortly after and W remained downstairs.
A short while later I got dressed and went back downstairs W asked me where was I going. I said "nowhere at the moment but I had planned to go..." and I told W my plan which did include invite to her.
Shortly after W went to take a bath which I assumed was so she can get ready to go. W came into the bedroom covered up and turned her back to me and began to rest. I asked "Do you plan on going?" W said "Maybe in a little bit, but you can go do whatever you wanted to get done" I decided that there were a couple things I could do while she stayed at home and rest.
As I was getting ready to leave we had an exchange. W has habit of leaving dirty dishes laying around (since sitch began she started doing this) and normally I would be Mr. Nice guy and just take it to the sink with no issue. This time I let it sit there and allow her to do it herself. One day later the dishes are still sitting there so I said "The plate and bowl need to go down stairs" with alight attitude W said "What?" I repeated myself and she said "obviously" and in a nice calm down I said "No need for an attitude I was only saying, they have been there for two days" W then replied "1 day" instead of going back and forth I said nothing in return and left the dishes where they were. Then I left. We'll see how long or if she even does take them down.
BTW PDT if you are reading this, I made a few comments directed toward you a page back...
"No need for an attitude I was only saying, they have been there for two days" W then replied "1 day" instead of going back and forth I said nothing in return and left the dishes where they were. Then I left. We'll see how long or if she even does take them down.
Reminds me of that segment on Everyone Loves Raymond with Debra & Ray seeing who would hold out the longest in putting the suitcase in the closet.
BTW PDT if you are reading this, I made a few comments directed toward you a page back...
???
Puppy
While I was putting the shelves up W came home from work, she fooled with the dog for a little bit then went upstairs where she remained as I finished putting the new shelves up. A little while later I went upstairs we had a little conversation, I went back down stairs, W eventually came down herself. . . .
Try to let her come to YOU. See what happens.
Puppy
I do. When she is watching TV downstairs I go upstairs, 8 out of 10 times she would shortly follow BUT it doe snot happen the other way. If I am downstairs and she is up she won't come down.
I did not go up to pursue her but rather to retrieve something from the bedroom.
What do you find odd or are you being sarcastic?
Just as a quick update. W woke up and is in the process of getting ready. I heard W say something but was not quite sure what exactly it was I believe she asked "What are you doing" without being sure I ask "I'm sorry, what did you say" her reply was "nothing" so I said "thought you said something" and carried on....
I went downstairs and was heading back up and W yells "Hold on stop right there" so I did, then she said OK and I walked in the room and I asked "What was that about" she said "I was getting changed" just brutal..I know it can be a whole lot worse but this alone kills me. 10 years of intimacy and now this....
"10 years of intimacy and now this...."
It's all tied together with trust issues, her issues, her not being able to be open with you emotionally.
It's another thing you're going to have to let slide.
While I was putting the shelves up W came home from work, she fooled with the dog for a little bit then went upstairs where she remained as I finished putting the new shelves up. A little while later I went upstairs we had a little conversation, I went back down stairs, W eventually came down herself. . . .
Try to let her come to YOU. See what happens.
Puppy
I do. When she is watching TV downstairs I go upstairs, 8 out of 10 times she would shortly follow BUT it doe snot happen the other way. If I am downstairs and she is up she won't come down.
I did not go up to pursue her but rather to retrieve something from the bedroom.
What do you find odd or are you being sarcastic?
OH, that one. I found it odd that she would do that with the frames.
Update:
W and I eventually made it out the door. W decided to drive for once (I usually offer since in the past I would criticize her driving.
W stopped off at the bed store. My W wanted to get shirt for my parents dog (long story lol). We then headed out to FIL's house to visit him and his GF who was just released from the hospital. On the way I stopped and got FIL GF some flowers.
We arrived at FIL and we were greeted. FIL usually gives W hug and kiss and he would shake my hand. This time he did not shake my hand but he did ask how I was doing.
We hung out for about about an hour talking about a wide range of things at times laughing and joking. FIL asked me how work is going.
FIL and W were talking about THE HOUSE. W said nothing about moving in or when it will be ready for her but it was more of FIL talking about what he wants to do with it and how much he has done to this point.
When we left FIL said to W "ILY" and to me "OIN I'll be seeing you"
On the way back home we stopped off at MIL house (VERY RARE THIS HAPPENS) and dropped off a gift we had got for W's sister. I could detect the tension between W and MIL.
We continued to head back home and to my surprise W decided to stop by THE HOUSE FIL is fixing up. We walked around the house and looked into the windows ect...W did not say anything about moving in or that being her future apartment. One thing she did make reference to was she said "I should have a key for this anyway" but I said nothing thinking she was trying to bait me. W would inherit this home one day from FIL so it could had meant that but I am not sure.
We left. On the way home W wanted to stop at another store and give the dog shirt another attempt (seems weird but like I said long story). W was looking at other things like new bedding, new pillow, table cloths, candles for the back desk ect... but purchased none. Then W was looking at undergarments. I made a suggestion of something I thought looked nice and she purchased it, too bad I won't get to see her in it lol.
We get back home. W and I go to parents and put t-shirt on new dog. My father said <W name> I have not seen you over her in a long time. W laughed. We then were leaving and father said to W "stop in again" W laughed and said "OK"
throughout the course of the day had her typical WAS attitude. Bitterness and shortness in her responses at times and stupid facial expressions ect...
Well as I was typing this W comes out the bath and ask "are my pants and shirt out there?" I said "yes" W asked if I could bring them to her. I took them to her handed them over as she put just her arm out the bathroom door shielding her body from me...sorry but that just blows my mind every time. Why get the undergarments I suggest and I can't see you in them>?
Update:
I know it can be a whole lot worse but this alone kills me. 10 years of intimacy and now this....
sorry but that just blows my mind every time. ?
Same as we talked about yesterday. She's bitter and she's trying to hurt you. She knows how to push your buttons and what action will produce the greatest amount of damage. Stop reacting to them. If you do they will lose their power and she'll move on.
OIN, I'm going thru the same situation. Month # 22 and counting. It was just recently my wife started to lean on me while watching tv. It's a loooooong process. Our sex life isn't that bad as yours (1-2 times a week from 0). I remember 5 months back I touched her breath and she blasted in flames. Now I can touch her and she say nothing. Make love, try to reconnect.
Did you W ever threaten to move out the house or actually move out the house?
Yes,she did it for 4 months (threaten) she was ready to move to her sister's house. $ months that was a nightmare. She stopped it when I stopped interrogating her or making quotes about he A.
I'm sorry I'm trying not to spent too much time in my computer. She's not confortable with it. Part of the process...
Update:
I know it can be a whole lot worse but this alone kills me. 10 years of intimacy and now this....
sorry but that just blows my mind every time. ?
Same as we talked about yesterday. She's bitter and she's trying to hurt you. She knows how to push your buttons and what action will produce the greatest amount of damage. Stop reacting to them. If you do they will lose their power and she'll move on.
That could be true or it could have a lot to do with the resentment she has toward me and insecurities as a result of the harsh things I had said to her in the past.
As for last night, after she came back into the room her and I played pictionary for nearly an hour and had as great time. I had not seen my W laugh so hard in a long time. Then we went to bed.
We both woke up early this morning. W before I. We watched a little TV, I got up and headed out the door for a court hearing. Before I left W asked if I was switching medical plans and wanted to know if I was going to add her.
I said to W "Do you want to go on my insurance?" W said "Yes, I want to get work done" referring to her eyes (and other things she mentioned in the past....) I then said "We will have to talk about it then" she said "yeah but you dont have much more time before the cut off date"
I will not add my W to my insurance unless there is a commitment from her to work on our M. I never thought my W to be such a person but I am weary that she would use me for the insurance to get what she wants from it and still leave, I only think this because she is now under the influence of a female co-worker who is married to a co-worker of mine who has the same benefits...
How do I discuss this w/wife and get my point across w/o pursuit ect...
I dunno about this one... I get the impression she's hinting that she is considering staying there with you for longer... I dunno... It's not like she's cheating here.. THAT i would cut her off my insurance for... If she IS staying there, then you should keep her on your insuranc euntil she leaves no?
Well here is the deal...
A few months back when our sitch first began I asked W to get on my insurance. She pays for her own insurance through her work and I get it free through mine. We would safe money ultimately. I admit it was a poor attempt to get W to stay.
Months later my W starts bringing up the idea of getting on my insurance because I plan to switch over to a new plan. The new plan is a cosmetic rider. Which means we can get ANYTHING done.
Female co-worker of my W is on her husband's insurance who works for the same department and is on the same plan I will be switching to. THis co-worker of my W has had 'WORK' done if you know what I mean. This women is "shady" I am told and is the one who 'cheats' on her husband with a co-worker. This woman has been a mentor if you will for my W.
I would not be surprised if she is telling my W to get on my insurance get the work done and then boot me...I will not be used (for my W to try to outlook OMW and gain his attraction?) and plus I love my W just the way she is. So in a sense this is a big deal.
OfficerInNeed,
If she is listening closely to these shady folks, I can't even say that you have your work cut out for you. If that is her main source of influence you have alot of pain ahead.
I think you're overanalyzing things again.
Point is. Do you want to do it or not? If you're going to do it, do it for the right reasons. You can't control what she's going to do with the insurance if you put her with you. If you're uncomfortable with doing so, then don't do it.
My W said the same thing when all this stuff happened. She was going to get some "work" done, go to the gym to start getting a great body, etc. How much of it has she done? zilch.
Not saying your W is going to do the same, but sometimes they say and do things that just pop in their heads. Doesn't necessarily mean they'll follow through on it.
I want to add her because she is my W, I offered to add her 2 months ago and she declined saying she has her own insurance. I am not making the commitment unless she makes a commitment to work on our marriage. When she wants to start being/acting like my W I will treat her as my W and put her on the insurance. How I a propose this to her?
In my situation I added mine because it cost me no different than adding all of my kids. She has benefitted from the medical insurance too.
The insurance shouldn't be used as a bargaining chip. Isn't going to work. Do you honestly think she's going to say that she wants to work on the marriage because of the insurance?
If you offer her the insurance you need to do it with no strings attached. Or you can't say what procedures she can or can't get. That goes back to you being controlling.
I agree that insurance should not be used as a bargaining chip for the marriage.
I do find it upsetting though that she can ask you in a clear fashion about health insurance but most other times she only can make noises and faces when communicating with you.
Keep in mind this is NY state and the laws are very different here than anywhere else in the country when it comes to legal separation and divorce. While it is an unfortunate thing to have to consider you putting her on your plan now certainly could put you in a position to have to pay her health insurance should you separate or divorce as you willingly put her on your plan while married. Since your insurance is free through your employer it might be less of a consideration I guess.
While I am sure this is not the best course of action at this point I might consider asking her why she is able to communicate with you for the insurance but most other times she chooses not to barely acknowledge you. I might also consider telling her that your insurance has great C'ing coverage and you plan to go as you have some big decision to make about your life.
Your W has a very easy escape route available to her (her dad's house) and the means to provide for herself financially.
I agree not to use the insurance as a bargaining chip but I am not sure I would be so quick to put her on the insurance. I am not sure really.
Can't tell you how many times I've heard of the departing wife getting breast implants, paid by the husband, before she splits.
I might also consider telling her that your insurance has great C'ing coverage and you plan to go as you have some big decision to make about your life.
LIKE that idea!!!
Puppy
Can't tell you how many times I've heard of the departing wife getting breast implants, paid by the husband, before she splits.
Oh sh!#T my wife just had her lipo done like 40 days ago. But that's ok, if she leaves me, she will remember me as the person who made her feel happy...
I'm typing this message using her therapeutic massager computer right now. She's happy and that's important. That's called unconditional love.
OIN read "The 5 Languages of Love" by Gary Chapman. Unconditional love, very important. Put her on your insurance. You have to express your feeling, who you are and you will look attractive if you express it with love. I got to go!
Can't tell you how many times I've heard of the departing wife getting breast implants, paid by the husband, before she splits.
Oh sh!#T my wife just had her lipo done like 40 days ago. But that's ok, if she leaves me, she will remember me as the person who made her feel happy...
I'm typing this message using her therapeutic massager computer right now. She's happy and that's important. That's called unconditional love.
Are you being facetious? Or serious?
Puppy
For the reasons CG stated, it is kind of a big deal in this state. I am not necessary trying to use this as leverage. I just find it odd giving the circumstances. Just for the record the last thing my W needs is breast augmentations.
As for the remainder of the day...
W and I had planned to go out and do a few things today but unfortunately W feel to sleep and woke up ill. Stating her head was heading and she felt as if she was going to vomit. As a result we did not follow through on our plans.
We ended up watching an old family film of my FIL when he was a child along with all my W's uncles. Well my W started to watch and I joined her. We made comments ect...
After W said to the dog "<dog name> don't you want to play pictionary" and I said "<W name> if you would like to play just ask me" W said something in response sort of defensive but I fail to remember. We then played pictionary. We played for nearly 2 hours and we had fun again.
After W and I started to watch a show on TV and then decided to go get some ice cream. We then returned home finished watching the show and went up to bed. W went to sleep.
W has altogether stopped talking future tense and has once again lost interest in updates to the home.
Our dog was a little sick today needless to say we had some messes to clean up around the house as a result and we actually cleaned up together.
W was her typical WAS self times but there were moments were I called W out on her attitude. When ever W uses sounds instead of words to communicate with me I just say "I'm sorry I could not understand you" in return she then uses words. I still let somethings slide considering she is a WAS after all.
I failed to mention in an earlier post that while I was at my hearing W was attempting to log into my mobile phone account (she failed). She did not mention anything to me about it though.
I have not heard anything new concerning OM, my concern is they may still talk. In the morning they park in the employee lot and then get on a shuttle which drops them off in front of the airport. It is very possible that the two could be on the shuttle alone during these times. They ride together every sat, sun, and wed. I am trying to find away to monitor this....
After W said to the dog "<dog name> don't you want to play pictionary" and I said "<W name> if you would like to play just ask me" W said something in response sort of defensive but I fail to remember. We then played pictionary. We played for nearly 2 hours and we had fun again. . . .
W was her typical WAS self times but there were moments were I called W out on her attitude. When ever W uses sounds instead of words to communicate with me I just say "I'm sorry I could not understand you" in return she then uses words.
Puppy
Well, I am not my best at calling her out without confrontation. She has lashed back saying "I dont have an attitude" but I just ignore it and not argue the point any further
It's bad habits -- by both of you. And bad habits take 21 days to break, at a minimum (and that's if consistently replaced by new, BETTER habits).
Again, nicely done, officer!
Puppy
I forgot to mention that last night I was heating something up in the oven for the both of us. I was checking up on the food and burned my finger. I was in terrible pain but I tried my best to hold it in. W seen I was in pain and asked if I burned myself. I told her yes and expressed the pain I was in. W then asked me if I wanted a refill on my drink and if I wanted ice....
This morning I tried to follow the advice of some who suggested not to get out of bed when W leaves for work if I am not already up. W was walking out of the room and said "I'm going downstairs" usually she would say "I'm leaving"
I said bye and she said "what did you say?" I repeated "bye" and she replied "bye" she sounded as if she was caught of guard by me not getting up. about 2 min later W calls for me and ask for me to come down. So I did and she needed help finding something. I helped her find it. W then gathered her things and was heading out the door saying and waving bye to he dog...
I said bye and she said "what did you say?" I repeated "bye" and she replied "bye" she sounded as if she was caught of guard by me not getting up. about 2 min later W calls for me and ask for me to come down. So I did and she needed help finding something. I helped her find it. W then gathered her things and was heading out the door saying and waving bye to he dog...
I don't like this dynamic you two have right now.
She calls--makes you get out of bed--to come down and help her look for something. She is treating you like a servant. Under normal circumstances, I would say this is fine, but I am not sure it wasn't just a way to see if she still has some control over you in this present situation.
And then you say she said goodbye to the dog, but I didn't read about her saying goodbye to you. Is that what happened?
Did she get you up out of bed to look for something and then say goodbye to the dog and not you? If so, next time stay in bed and pull the danged covers over your head and pretend you are asleep.
AGREE, with all of that. I think it was a test, either conscious or subconscious.
When my kids (or my wife) ask me to "Come here" -- unless the tone of their voice indicates it's urgent or they're hurt or something -- I usually say "What did you need?? I do the same thing with e-mails at work, when a co-worker will e-mail me "Call me," with no explanation. I think it's common courtesy to let the person know what you need, otherwise it's a beckon call.
Puppy
The same woman that asked you just 24 hours ago to provide her with health insurance couldn't be bothered to say goodbye to you but could say goodbye to the dog? I am sorry but this is unacceptable.
Didn't you say your W begins work at 4am? So she is asking you to help her at that hour and can't even muster a goodbye?
I really think you need to change your routine for you! I really am not sure how else you will break the dynamic the two of you have.
I know you work full time and you mentioned playing sports and working out but what about a new hobby just for you? Right now your W has NO CLUE what it would be like not to have you around 24/7. It seems the two of you spend LOTS of time together.
I think you really should maybe consider building a life for you outside of your W. It will give you time to recharge and it will also be good for you to interact with people to practice your new skills/tools.
Your W seems to live and die by the dog. I would start taking the dog out of the house... to the park, a dog park or on a hike. If she wants to come along great. If not that is fine as well but I am not so sure you and her spending so much time in the house is the best course of action right now.
No matter what, it's terribly rude to wake up an entire household in the middle of the night for no good reason other than not being able to find something. I understand she can't control her work schedule but some common courtesy is in order.
Has your W always acted so entitled? I found it odd in a previous post you stated your W said she was going to call her dad so he could call the attny.
I said bye and she said "what did you say?" I repeated "bye" and she replied "bye" she sounded as if she was caught of guard by me not getting up. about 2 min later W calls for me and ask for me to come down. So I did and she needed help finding something. I helped her find it. W then gathered her things and was heading out the door saying and waving bye to he dog...
I don't like this dynamic you two have right now.
She calls--makes you get out of bed--to come down and help her look for something. She is treating you like a servant. Under normal circumstances, I would say this is fine, but I am not sure it wasn't just a way to see if she still has some control over you in this present situation.
And then you say she said goodbye to the dog, but I didn't read about her saying goodbye to you. Is that what happened?
Did she get you up out of bed to look for something and then say goodbye to the dog and not you? If so, next time stay in bed and pull the danged covers over your head and pretend you are asleep.
She did not force me out of bed. She did not demand I get up and help her out. She asked if I could help her and I did. Laying in bed pulling the covers over my head and ignoring her requests is the old me.
I cannot tell you how many times in the past I MADE my W get out of bed (or wherever) to do something for me that I was very well capable of doing myself and my W was always hesitant to ask for to do much because she was unsure what OIN she would get.
The same woman that asked you just 24 hours ago to provide her with health insurance couldn't be bothered to say goodbye to you but could say goodbye to the dog? I am sorry but this is unacceptable.
Didn't you say your W begins work at 4am? So she is asking you to help her at that hour and can't even muster a goodbye?
I really think you need to change your routine for you! I really am not sure how else you will break the dynamic the two of you have.
I know you work full time and you mentioned playing sports and working out but what about a new hobby just for you? Right now your W has NO CLUE what it would be like not to have you around 24/7. It seems the two of you spend LOTS of time together.
I think you really should maybe consider building a life for you outside of your W. It will give you time to recharge and it will also be good for you to interact with people to practice your new skills/tools.
Your W seems to live and die by the dog. I would start taking the dog out of the house... to the park, a dog park or on a hike. If she wants to come along great. If not that is fine as well but I am not so sure you and her spending so much time in the house is the best course of action right now.
No matter what, it's terribly rude to wake up an entire household in the middle of the night for no good reason other than not being able to find something. I understand she can't control her work schedule but some common courtesy is in order.
Has your W always acted so entitled? I found it odd in a previous post you stated your W said she was going to call her dad so he could call the attny.
She said bye in response to me saying it while I was still in bed.
Yes, right now the dog is an important part of each our lives. We both have become attached. I have read somewhere on this forum that other WAS did the same thing when their sitch was going on, talk to the dog and try to project happiness.
It is not like she asked me to help her find a hair clip or something foolish. In this instance it did warrant my assistance.
Has your W always acted so entitled? I found it odd in a previous post you stated your W said she was going to call her dad so he could call the attny.
Yes. She said she was going to call her father (who went through a divorce with her mother) and get the number for her his attny. This was just a little over a month ago.
How did you MAKE your W get out of bed in the past? Did you threaten or harm her if she didn't comply? Did you drag her out of bed?
IMO you are taking all kinds of terrible behavior from your W because it is what you used to do. You feel guilty for the way you treated your W and now you are allowing her to do the same thing for you as "punishment". And really, how does that stop the cycle of negative behavior. It doesn't. What it does do is create an ongoing power struggle you will never ever break.
I know things are fragile but you have to learn it is okay to tell your W no. She is ALWAYS asking you for something... to help her find stuff, food, a blanket and so on. You don't have to say yes each time. And if that is what pushes her out the door then so be it. Let her live alone and see what it's like not to have a full time servant.
As isolated incidents some of this stuff would be fine but the incidents are not isolated. A very clear pattern is developing. My H and I lived in a power struggle for years and I can assure you once the struggle begins it gains momentum fast.
Have you considered IC for yourself? If not, why?
I really think you need to limit the amount of time you spend with your W. The two of you need more than computer games, tv, shopping and playing with the dog. I think you both would do much better if you found healthier ways to spend time together as it might create a new dynamic, you would get to see new sides of each other and it would break up the routine the two of you seem stuck in. It also might help create some immediate positive memories and feelings. If your W is not up for it then so be it.. do it for you!
I cannot tell you how many times in the past I MADE my W get out of bed (or wherever) to do something for me that I was very well capable of doing myself and my W was always hesitant to ask for to do much because she was unsure what OIN she would get.
OIN, you keep reverting to this as your default position for justifying your current interactions with your wife: "Yes, they may be unhealthy, but I did it to her in the past, so now I need to make up for that."
You have several different people, all coming from different backgrounds and perspectives, suggesting to you that your communication style between you and your wife is somewhat dysfunctional, and that your pleasing/supplicating/placating behaviors are detrimental to your current stage of DBing.
And you dismiss them.
Which of course, you are free to do, but don't expect to get different results if you're not willing to jettison your held belief of "I hurt her in the past, so now I need to respond to her requests or I will push her to someone else who will."
Food for thought.
Puppy
OIN,
One thing about the bad behaviors is the longer they do them, the more ingrained they become in their interaction with you. So by "taking it" you may make it so you can never have a "good" interaction with this particular female. Just something to consider.
Looking back I think one "shouldn't take it".
I really think you need to limit the amount of time you spend with your W. The two of you need more than computer games, tv, shopping and playing with the dog. I think you both would do much better if you found healthier ways to spend time together as it might create a new dynamic, you would get to see new sides of each other and it would break up the routine the two of you seem stuck in. It also might help create some immediate positive memories and feelings. If your W is not up for it then so be it.. do it for you!
Our interactions have expanded beyond the aforementioned activities. These are the only activities W will engage in with me right now. Should I no longer do those things with her and have no interaction at all? When I have things planned to do and W chooses not to join me I still do them.
Yes I admit there was a span of time where I felt like I deserved the bitterness or because of our past. I am starting to break those patterns as you seen I have posted in the past few days. I just can't where it is wrong to assist my W when she asks. She is not demanding she is asking. Sitch or no sitch I would do it.
I do agree that she does speak to me in an unacceptable way a good percentage of time and that is something I am working on diminishing. SO what to do?
Help me develop a habit breaking plan/responses.
W - uses sounds to communicate
ME - Sorry I cannot understand you
W - Asks me or tells me I have an attitude when I don't
ME - ?
I have to think of the other common responses or comment shse gives me so I have a prepared response that is constructive and gets a point across.
The past is the past and the activities you used to do don't really matter right now. What matter is what you are doing NOW. If your W chooses not to do anything more than stay around the house and play computer games and watch tv that is fine but IMO you will be better off if you start doing more.
A change of scenery or something new will do wonders for you. You will gain a new perspective on your situation. And you will be in the company of other people that you don't have to cajole in to doing something outside of the house or errands. It will also give you some space from this very tedious situation and give you time to recharge and regroup. You need some space I think.
Since your W still lives at home then you will still have interaction and at this point I think it's far better to have fewer POSITIVE interactions than many not so positive ones. If your W doesn't want to join you then so be it. You have given her no chance to miss you. And you will be able to monitor the phone and computer.
When your W uses sounds to communicate be firm and say "W: when you use noises and facial expressions to communicate I cannot understand you. Please use words when communicating with me".
When your W tells you you have an attitude simply say "W: I am sorry you feel that way". Don't argue and don't defend yourself. If she tries to argue more then simply reiterate what you said and walk away cheerfully.
If your W talks to the dog through you tell her "W: Please do not communicate to me through the dog:
Lastly, I see no problem in telling your W when her behavior is disrespectful.
The point I think we are making is your W asks an awful lot for things to be done for her. When she doesn't need a task/favor done she isn't all that pleasant to you. Can you see why many of us feel your W treats you as a servant?
There are many routines and patterns that need to be broken and that won't happen overnight. IMO you need to start breaking them by behaving in a totally different way. You said your W does not handle her schedule well. Why not say something like.. "W, I know your work schedule is really hard on you. Would it be helpful to you if we set everything out you will need the night before so your pre-work routine is as smooth as possible?"
You have to teach your W how to create some healthy and less dependant patterns in her life.
I asked him to do this too, minimize the interactions while she is sorting through her issues and enjoy his life. Allow her to participate if she would like.
She's happy and that's important. That's called unconditional love.
Put her on your insurance. You have to express your feeling, who you are and you will look attractive if you express it with love. I got to go!
I know you consider it good manners whenever you say, "I'm sorry but....." Do you think you could change your habit of saying I'm sorry....to saying "Excuse me but...." Makes you sound much less of a doormat and so much stronger of a man.
As for today.
W returned home from work. She acted as if she was in a good mood but I am unsure what put her in it. She walked in the door immediately gave the dog her attention. I stood in the Kitchen with my back turned to her reading something. W started to tell dog "Go get your dad" I turned looked and smirked then turned back to what I was doing.
W went upstairs to change out of work cloths. I went up stairs to grab laptop. AS I was walking out the room W asked if I wanted to play pictionary (lol) so I did. We played for a bit. I know it sounds childish but we have a great time.
W then agreed to take a ride. We stopped a few places and had a little lunch. Then we returned back home. W was in the bathroom and I asked her a question but was unable to hear her. I asked her to repeat herself and she gave me an attitude and said "I'll be right out"
I walked into the bedroom and W said "I could not hear you and you were not able to hear me, I said" and she repeated herself.
W then asked if I wanted to play pictionary again and I said "No" W took offense to it and I said "I am not pleased with the way you just spoke with me" W tried to defend herself but in a calm tone. We spent a little time before I left for work talking about non-R things and I headed for work.
Before I left W asked if I needed anything else before I left because she was going to hop in the shower, I forgot an item upstairs so I ran up to get it. I walked out the room and said "bye, goodnight" to W and if I am not mistaken W said "goodnight" in return.
Overall today was a descent day. Good exchanges and far less noises as responses when she did I would say "I was did not understand what you are saying." W caught eyes quite a few times. Had good conversations. A time or two I initiated a touch to her hand or leg VERY BRIEFLY and it was not opposed.
W just called me to tell me she is not feeling well (tired, stomach ache, running nose) and she decided to call off work.
I simply said "if your sick then your sick, just try and relax" not trying to be too sympathetic...
She's sick a LOT.
Nice come-from-behind handling of the convos, btw. Well done.
Puppy
OK CONVERSATION THAT JUST OCCURRED...
W was in shower and then came walking out then into the bedroom. W said
"What if I said to you, that I wanted you to invite my family over for my birthday and I want to know if we can have the house together by then?"
I wanted to make sure I heard her correctly so I said
"You want me to invite your family over the house for your birthday?"
W replied "I was going to invite them but I wanted to make sure the house was in order before then" W then gave examples of things that need to be replaced ect..
I said "It is possible but I cannot do it alone"
W said "I did not say you would have to do it alone"
I said "Just wanted to ensure that" then I told W that it is something we can accomplish...
The story behind this, her family has not seen our new home yet. Only family member of hers that had come over since our purchase is my FIL.
Did I handle this well?
Should I leave it at that and assume she is trying?
Are they any heavy hitters I can say to her that can help our cause?
This is very good. You will work together on a project that satisfies something she desires. If this is a good experience, you will be building your marriage with it. However, if this is a bad experience, you will be destroying it. You handled the agreement part well. I think you can do it!
Very good!
The one thing I might suggest is for you to avoid using words like "cannot" with your W and always going right to the negative.
Your W just asked about having her family over and you right away went to "I can't do it alone". IMO that sounds negative.
Just for the future something along the lines of "W, I think it's possible if WE work TOGETHER".
At this point I would take things for what they are. Your W wants to have her family over and show off her house. It may or may not mean something for the future. But use this opportunity to your advantage. Working on a common goal is a GOOD thing!
No negativity during this process, no assuming, no snotty comments and make it all about the two of you working together!
What Lotus and CityGirl said!
Puppy
P.S. How far away do her family members live?
sandi,
I could use your input on my sitch if you got a minute. Thanks.
Sorry for the hijack OIN.
W and I went out and got invitation for party and set a date. It is june 26th. W purchased little things for the house. I am trying to make things as smooth as possible and a great interaction between us.
W and I were talking when we got home about how we should word the invitations then W said
"I want it to be a house warming/birthday party" I told W "whatever ypu think is best, either way we will make it happen"
W then said "it's just that it will be my family's first time seeing the house so we should do it as a house warming party as well" I said "sounds like a good idea"
W then said " I don't want them (W family) think we are shutting them out"
I hope this is all for the better of our sitch. Who knows if W will revert back to full WAS mode after the party and still threaten to leave.
W has been using sounds to communicate far less. When she does I simply tell her that I cannot hear/understand her but she has not done it enough to warrant an actual talk about it. There are times where she does use sounds/body language to communicate with me but nothing to make a fuss about.
Before I left for work I said "goodnight" to W and I got no response I then sai "bye" and W said bye in return with a tone and facial expression as if she had said it three times already.
And PDT I am not sure if she is sick or "sick" but I can say she has been like this for 10 years but who knows...
And PDT I am not sure if she is sick or "sick" but I can say she has been like this for 10 years but who knows...
You are a patient, patient man, Officer.
Puppy
City Girl hit it for you OIN... when you say something like
"I can't do it alone" YOu instigate a fight...
The implied point in there is
"You don't help, you stick me with all the work"
It's a very subtle attack to the audience... you liekly don't know you are doing it, but it is instigative... CG was right on the money there...
YOu assumed she wouldn't help (reasonable, but still instigative) and she went right after it...
You are doing fantastic... Keep on it OIN, i think this is yet another sign that she's turning around...
WHy would she want to clean up her home and invite people there if she's LEAVING?
She's not leavin man.. She's just trying to hurt you... let it slide off I say...
Understood, I changed me approach no more negative.
I seen that W was searching for wall decor. At the very least she is serious about getting the house ready for this party.
OK... Do YOU see what she's tryign to TELL you here?
What do YOU think she's trying to say without saying it?
I get what your implying but her mannerisms do not suggest the same.
How do I handle this? Just go with the flow and allow her to iniate everythibg (which I think she will not do)
Also I am not sure how far gone om is...
OM still causing trouble?
Not surprised.. what's the news there?
Just follow along... If she's willing to contribute I would say that's a good thing...
I think there's enough indicators here OIN to warrant you keeping on this track woudln't you say?
I am not suggesting celebrating anything yet.. but I do think its a good sign ...
According to friends who work with them, nothing yet.
There is a very gray area that concerns me but I am doing my best to monitor the situation and according to my friends so are they, we'll see.
I often see w space out and I assume she is thinking about om. I feel. W is extremely vulnerable toward om that if he did talk to her she would relapse HARD
Yup.. she's in withdrawal still.. it can take 8 - 12 weeks I think that's the number Harley offers...
OM really messed her head up.. Man I hate creeps like that... OIN they belong in Jail.. isn't there a law against messing someone's head up like that?
What Lotus and CityGirl said!
Puppy
P.S. How far away do her family members live?
W family range from 30 ming away up to about 1hr half away.
Body language is a good indicator IMO. I think your best course of action is to keep calling her out when she mumbles, makes noises and talks through the dog. Do so in a polite but firm way. Eventually she will get the message and stop or you will grow tired of her games and decide you don't need this kind of crap in your life anymore.
I would not initiate any work or planning for the party. Let her initiate then you join in. She is very used to getting catered and coddled when she wants something so this is a GRAND opportunity for you to do a 180 and let her put in some effort first then you join in. If she wants to prepare for this party as a team she must behave like a team player and not simply a delegator.
How you handle the party preparation is a huge opportunity. And how you handle the actual party is also huge. Just because her family is present it doesn't mean she won't be called on snotty comments, noises, mumbles and so on. You must be *very* consistent in this or it will never change.
Long day. Got out of work at 6am but had dentist app. at 8am. W called off work again just for the sake of calling off work. I had returned home from dentist app. W was up in bed. I went and laid in bed and attempted to sleep. I had asked W if there was anything on her list of things to do for the party she wanted to get down today. W shook her head no then said "I wanted to clean up the mulch in the front" I replied "We can do that, I will get a little rest then we can head outside" W then said "I can do it" so I replied "I know you can but if we do it together it will get done quicker and be much easier.
A few hours later I woke up then W and I headed outside. We cleaned up the mulch around the front yard (a lot of work). There were times when W said it was a lot of work and felt like stopping but I encouraged her by saying "I know it is a lot of work but WE can do this." W then made a comment about hiring someone to do it and I said "I understand why you would say that but we'll get it done, just one step at a time and when we're done it will feel good because we did it ourselves."
At one point W took a break to spray the dog with the hose, I joined then we got back into it and finally finishing up. In the past we W and I did tasks together I would always find something wrong with the way she was doing something and complain. This time like I have been for the past 4 months I was very patient and encouraging.
After W seemed worn out and just no longer interested in yard work but agreed to take a ride to the hardware store in attempts to locate a few things. We went and found nothing then headed back home.
W does not seem all that excited about the party so I would say "I'm excited for this party, we're going to have a great time" and her expressions and mannerisms do not match her words. See looks down and out or mopey in a sense but tells me she is excited.
W and I sat down and went over the invite list. W asked who else should we invite. I said to W "Whoever you want, invite <friend name from work>" and W said "No, I will just invite family" in a very depressed tone and I replied "are you sure? It is for your birthday" and with a little attitude W said "I said just family is fine"
I left it at that...
I don't know what it is but she does not seem all to happy about the party even though it was her idea but I am doing my very best to be supportive and interested complete 180 from the past, I did not even help plan our own wedding.
I seen that W had pulled a few of our wedding decorations from the basement and brought them upstairs unsure why...
At one point just before I left for work I had touched W on the leg and she moved her legs andhad a dirty look on face, I asked if that bothered her she replied yes. I guess I am pushing it, I need to slow down.
While I was getting ready for work, W asked if I could go down stairs and check on the dog. I did it even though W was very capable. As I was walking back upstairs W said "Thank You" in a loud pleasant tone, so I let it slide.
Just before I left, I said "bye" to W and she replied with the same.
While gone I seen that W did a thorough search on cosmetic surgery. This bothers me because I love W for what she looks like now, I don't want her to change anything. Also I think female co-worker is feeding my W to the point W wants to be like her.
I know in the past W had said after we had children she would consider different types of surgery but now it seems like she wants more work then ever mention done and soon. I want to have children and it now seems like that thought has moved from her head. I don't expect for my W to say anything to me about the thought of children I know that is far too premature for our sitch but to hop on my insurance to get "work done" ASAP is not something I am OK with.
Also I have been doing a better job of establishing better communication between us. At times when she uses sounds I simply say "I could not understand you" or "what did you say" W would then repeat and use actually words. hopefully she starts to get the point and break the habit.
W said "No, I will just invite family" in a very depressed tone and I replied "are you sure? It is for your birthday"
Umm... you need to work on your listening skills here, I think.
She told you she felt like only inviting family, and then you ask her if she's sure as if she might not know how she feels. That's not very validating. Stop doing that so much.
Stand up for yourself, but learn to listen better.
Now... on the yardwork you did the same thing. Instead of saying "Yeah, it would probably be easier to hire somebody" (I hear you) and continuing to work, you started sounding like a parent trying to teach a child.
She needs a good kick in the butt, but if you are the one doing it nicely all of the time, that's not a healthy dynamic.
If W wanted to give up on something that we were working on together I should encourage that? And say "your right we cannot do this together its best we hire someone" and inject negativity? We can't do yard work together because w wants to give up (just like our M) and I tell her it is worth doing on our own and keep at it (just like DB to save our marriage), is this the example I want to set?
Ok made huge mistake but need help resolving.
W and I had intended to go grocery shopping yesterday but ran out of time. W was going to work without lunch. I, like a pursuing nitwit decided to pick w up something for lunch and had planned to meet up with her before work.
I got tied up on my job. W was at work called me for an eta but I was 15min out. W could not wait cutting it close. I told w I had picked her up a lunched and hiped to meet up and get it to her.
W was talking about how she had to park in other lot ect...I then heard w say "thank you" but very faint. I asked w what she had said and she replied "I said thank you to the bus driver for opening the door up"
I felt completely disrespected. I told w that I would let her go and the call ended.
I set myself up on this one and did not expect for her to overlook my gesture.
I need to know.
A. When she gets home from work do I bring it up and if so what do I say?
B. Do I let it go and let it be a lesson learned?
C. Something else.....
I know some will say "why do you keep doing these things for her" and your right but as stated in past w is a vegetarian and has special diet she cannot just go anywhere and get something to eat. I can't imagine her going a whole work day without eating so I decided to do this...
"your right we cannot do this together its best we hire someone" and inject negativity? We can't do yard work together because w wants to give up
Not only don't you listen, you read what you want to read as well.
I said, "You're right. It would be easier to hire somebody" (I hear you) and keep on working.
You have a problem with that. You are not her parent. You sure as heck aren't mine. If you don't want to hear about why it is unhealthy to take on a parenting role with your own spouse, that's fine with me.
There's a line between being a responsible adult and taking on a parenting role for your spouse that you keep crossing, and it just isn't healthy.
Can you see a family therapist (pro-marriage) for individual counseling?
When she says something, try to validate it every once in a while. That means you have to listen. No second guessing, no fixing, to teaching.
Definetely none of this "Are you sure you only want to invite your family?" stuff. It's like telling her she doesn't know what she feels.
There's a line between being a responsible adult and taking on a parenting role for your spouse that you keep crossing, and it just isn't healthy.
Bingo, bingo, bingo, bingo.
Puppy
What Lotus and CityGirl said!
Puppy
P.S. How far away do her family members live?
W family range from 30 ming away up to about 1hr half away.
And yet they've NEVER seen your house?
I can't remember; is your wife estranged from her family for some reason? If so, why?
Puppy
Pupper you are on vacation.. go away! lol
Bare with me here, I am doing the best I can. I am reading/making all these posts from a blackberry screen.
Maybe I am reading too much into these posts that somehow I thought I was saying the right things.
Just for the future something along the lines of "W, I think it's possible if WE work TOGETHER".
No negativity during this process, no assuming, no snotty comments and make it all about the two of you working together!
I thought I was doing this by saying the following
W then made a comment about hiring someone to do it and I said "I understand why you would say that but we'll get it done, just one step at a time and when we're done it will feel good because we did it ourselves."
My words were meant/intended as validation and understanding and then I was making it all about us two working together.
Just because you use the word "we" it doesn't necessarily mean you are validating your W.
If I may say something...
I am going to guess you are an officer of the law of some kind (based on your username). Would it be okay to assume in your line of work the way you deal with people is short answers and to the point information? I ask because it seems that is how you communicate all the time. Like when a suggestion is made to you, you always say "understood".
It has been pointed out to you that you and your W have a very, very unhealthy dynamic. You do not treat each other as equals. She treats you like a servant and you treat her like a child. And now the "child" is lashing out and things are only going to go downhill.
I know you are trying and I think we can all really see that but it seems you are trying in a way that is not working. There are so many books out there that clearly spell out the male/female dynamic and the different ways men and women communicate. Why not pick up a few?
I do agree that IC would do you a world of good. It is very easy for an outsider to see the very unhealthy dynamic the two of you have but I gather to you it seems somewhat normal.
You keep going out of your way for your W (EX: wanting to bring her lunch) and she is rude and ungrateful then you get offended she has reacted that way. SHE ALWAYS REACTS THAT WAY! So, the solution would be to stop doing things until she decides to change. It should be a huge red flag that she can say thank you to a bus driver but not somebody going way out of their way to bring her lunch.
There are many, many issues in your R that will have to be dealt with or else you will go crazy. Your W's chronic fatigue is something that must be addressed. It is telling she is a vegetarian and always tired. It is not at all uncommon for vegetarians to have chronic sinus and allergy problems due to the high amounts of dairy products they consume. Your W has little incentive to go get checked out because when she is sick you coddle her to no end.
I know this is tough and a total life change on so many levels. I know you are trying but I am not sure you are applying things in the most effective manner.
I am going to guess you are an officer of the law of some kind (based on your username). Would it be okay to assume in your line of work the way you deal with people is short answers and to the point information? I ask because it seems that is how you communicate all the time. Like when a suggestion is made to you, you always say "understood".
As I have mentioned in previous posts, I am typing from a blackberry, it is tedious and finger cramping so I try to be brief when given the opportunity.
I know you are trying and I think we can all really see that but it seems you are trying in a way that is not working. There are so many books out there that clearly spell out the male/female dynamic and the different ways men and women communicate. Why not pick up a few?
Any recommendations?
I do agree that IC would do you a world of good. It is very easy for an outsider to see the very unhealthy dynamic the two of you have but I gather to you it seems somewhat normal.
I have but unfortunately I do not have the financial support to go on a consistent basis.
Your W's chronic fatigue is something that must be addressed. It is telling she is a vegetarian and always tired. It is not at all uncommon for vegetarians to have chronic sinus and allergy problems due to the high amounts of dairy products they consume. Your W has little incentive to go get checked out because when she is sick you coddle her to no end.
There are many factors that contribute to my W's chronic fatigue. My W does not consume dairy products. My W has been a vegetarian sine the age of 7. Here chronic fatigue is something we've (me my W and her doctor) has dealt with since day one of the past 10 years (nothing new). FIL and other family members in W's family have the same medical condition but unfortunately nothing has helped remedy the situation.
Is her chronic fatigue autoimmune in nature? I ask because I have an autoimmune disease and they can be VERY hard to diagnose.
Just a suggestion but if your W does get yearly blood work she might see about getting an ANA test along with the regular CBC panel.
Without a diagnosis one can't know how to remedy the situation and it doesn't sound like she has a firm diagnosis. The problem with chronic fatigue and other autoimmune disorders is most family dr's are not equipped to deal with it. But without a proper diagnosis a specialist won't see you. I dealt with that for years. Nine years to be exact.
What are the factors that contribute to your W's chronic fatigue?
Just because you have the opportunity to be brief it doesn't mean being brief is always the best response.
IMO practicing a different type of communication skills here (or in your social circle sans W or with your family or co-workers) can serve you well when you do choose to communicate with your W.
City girl,
Regarding a high ANA count and chronic fatigue, what do doctors do about that?
My STBXW had a high ANA count, so I was just curious.
I have but unfortunately I do not have the financial support to go on a consistent basis.
Your insurance is comprehensive enough to cover plastic surgery but not counseling?
If your W has a high ANA count she should really consider seeing a rheumatologist. There are thousands of autoimmune diseases that cause chronic fatigue. I have SLE (systemic lupus) and I take a cocktail of drugs that are most commonly used to fight malaria. It alters the pH of my cells but I still feel the symptoms (massive fatigue, joint pain and blah blah blah). Essentially my cocktail is designed to block the overproduction of autoimmune antibodies. AI diseases are hell. The symptoms mimic so many other things and living with chronic pain is NOT easy. Not to mention the vulnerable state one's organs are always in. In my case my kidneys are "attacked".
CFS is an actual disease. I don't have it so I am not familiar with the particular treatment.
CG,
W has terrible work hours 4am-1230pm, she gets up 2am every work day. W has admitted she is "borderline depressed" but won't get help. W has chronic neck/head pains due to nerve damage in the shoulder/neck area so W things sleep is the best solution. In addition to the above she also has chronic fatigue in general. W and I spoke today about her going and getting blood work.
W and I had a descent day. We went to the art festival and spent nearly 3 hours walking and looking around. After we went and watched a football game then went back home.
We had some good conversations. There W times I called W out on her attitude but I think I did not effectively communicate with her when I did. I think I am overacting to somethings and taking too much offense to others. I need help. I am making things worse start near arguments. Anyone have any book suggestions?
Just purchased the following book and halfway through the first chapter.
Communication Miracles for Couples: Easy and Effective Tools to Create More Love and Less Conflict
I have a better understanding of what validating is. Could have did this earlier and W would not had gone to bed upset with me.
Those work hours do sound tough but at the end of the day she is only working eight hours per day which is what most people work.
The nerve issues sound painful but there are so many treatments available for things of that nature. What treatments does she get now?
Chronic Fatigue Syndrome *is* an autoimmune disease but one I am not very familiar with. Blood work is a good idea but depression can be linked to many things. People who suffer with chronic pain or fatigue often are depressed because it is a very, very hard way to live. But your W should be able to manage it all much better than she is if she has the proper medical team. I hope she can find some help.
I think the main problem is your W does not respect you. IMO the two of you spend way too much time together and it isn't helping at all. You have not shown her what it will look like if you are not around, if you detach and what life would be like without you in it. There are ways to do this without hate or arguments. Have you read the DB'ing books?
His Needs Her Needs is pretty good. The examples are pretty silly but maybe they are silly to make obvious points. Honestly, until your W respects you and starts to realize if she doesn't change her attitude and outlook on life you won't be around I don't think much will change.
Start going out as much as possible without her. Start doing less around the house for her and NO MORE PURSUIT. All this time together is really not allowing you to grow and learn as an individual.
You worry your W will find somebody else to do stuff for her? Honestly, a borderline depressed woman who hasn't really explored options to treat her depression and fatigue is A LOT of work. She has already been signaled out at work for inappropriate behavior so that should not longer be an issue if her boss is smart. You are tracking the computer so you will be aware of what is going on. What do you have to lose? You either get your W's attention or you make a better life for you.
Until the dynamic changes and the two of you spend far less time together until you have a better handle on the basics she is always going to find some reason to be upset with you.
The Five Languages of Love is also a very good book.
June started a thread in Newcomers with a long book list and I think there is also a link to that thread in the sticky section at the top of Newcomers.
There is a book (look in the Surviving the Big D section) that many forum members rave about but the name is escaping me.
I haven't read His Needs Her Needs or the 5 Languages of Love for a while so I might be mixing up the book with the silly examples. Both are decent reads though.
The Art of Seduction is good and might help you understand how to be more sensual with your W and how to reach her in a new way.
W has gone to neurosurgeon and they sent her back to primary physician saying "nothing we can do." W has app. setup in July. W called off work again today, W said she is calling Dr. tomorrow to get app. for blood work.
My sitch has gone on since 01/24/10. When this all began and for the first few months my W would not so anything with me so it was a lot of GAL and doing things we normally did together alone. In the past month W actually wants to do things with me.
I read 5LL, DR, co-dependent no more (not all the way through yet) and I have other books that were recommended for the point where/if we do start to reconcile. I just started to read a couple books on body language.
A neuroSURGEON would deal with surgery, no? There are many other kinds of dr's who specialize in pain management. You said your W's nerve issues stem from trauma (herniated disk). Anti seizure medications have a good history of helping with nerve pain when surgery is not a good option. Acupuncture is also very helpful (and I would have never believed it until I tried it. I have severe neuropathy from my lupus). I didn't hear you mention physical therapy (something I have also had good luck with). There are many options to explore.
I suffered for a LONG time thinking this is simply what I would have to tolerate. While she might always have to tolerate some level of chronic pain for fatigue there are ways to treat it for temporary relief and better management of the rest.
I understand your W didn't want to spend time with you before but I guess only you can evaluate what is better... quantity or quality? While you might be spending time together it seems much of the time is filled with snotty remarks, you have to ask her to speak normally and the two of you nipping back and forth at each other. It seems that the two of you are falling right back in old patterns. Quality is always better than quantity IMO.
The herniated disc in her back are separate from the nerve damage in her upper back/shoulder/neck area. herniated disc were caused by a fall she had when she was 17. The latter is something that just recently developed.
You are right quality is better than quantity. The past week and more so in the past couple days the snottiness has been at an all time low. W is starting to use sounds to communicate less and less. My issue has been getting an inch and wanting to take it a mile. I am expecting to much in such little time that I am getting offended too easily. The result is me becoming short myself where W detects my frustration and calls me out on it.
What we exhibit now verse how it was in the past is a world difference IMO. We always had a hard time doing things with each other it always started out with me finding something wrong with her or with what she was doing and nitpicking but now it a lot healthier than it use to be and with the assistance of all you on this forum and books and IC (hopefully soon) it will get healthier.
MWD said it takes on average one month to db a marriage for every year you were married...
OIN in your case that's a rough estimate of 10 months of dbing with zero help or cooperation from her before she starts to show some signs of input... You have a bit to go yet... but you are starting to look for the small the small things and are accepting half measures on her part... THAT is the difference... you are working at her pace now rather than yours... a very important change
Ok, I am not going to go back and forth with you about medical stuff. Since you have posted here, your W has been sick almost weekly. I hope she gets the medical attention she needs. I understand living with chronic pain all too well and it is a terrible strain on a marriage. It is horrible for the person experiencing the pain. She has to be proactive though on getting help and despite the reason for her pain, there are options that sound like they haven't been explored.
Think about what you said... you are expecting too much too soon. Why is that? IMO it is because you have not detached from your W.
In order to have a healthy R BOTH individuals must work on getting healthy as individuals hence the need to detach and focus on you. GAL for a few months is not enough. It has to be lifelong even if you do stay married.
Today W and I went back to art festival, we wanted to pick a few things up that we seen the day before. While there W and I had our charactures done together (lol). We then went to nephew's birthday party.
W and I then cleaned some of the house together and started to go over some plans for decorating the house.
There were a few slip ups when it came to communication, something that I am still working on.
We actually finally got rid of the old bed set that W had declared hers a while back.
W said something about not having lunch for tomorrow, I validated what she said but offered nothing ...in other words I did not say "i'll go out and get you a lunch"
I like it that you are starting to think about communicating, listening, validating, and not being a servant or a fixer.
You're not alone in needing to improve those skills. We could all improve on them (and I speak from the experience of beting terrible at doing it), and I'd say more than 50% of the people out there aren't that good at it.
I am listening to more of what W is saying. I also try to look into W's actions as well.
She is more into fixing the house up then she ever was throughout our entire sitch. Three months ago W was sleeping in the bed set that she recommended to throw out today.
Two months ago if W made a suggestion on how the interior design of the house can be improved or something she would like to get for the house and I would attempt to discuss further W would instantly shut me out and say "It's up to you because I am leaving" NOW W and I can talk about these things and actually have a productive conversation AS IF she really is interested.
When we first moved into our home we had big plans for the rooms in the house and then when the sitch began W forgot everything we had ever planned on, Today W had those plans again and talked about them.
There are so many things today that W was not doing/saying 2 months ago. Based on these actions, in my W's own kind of way is she telling me she is staying?
I agree with everyone here, even though we do not argue like we have in the past and I am not the same person who would talk down to my W that brought us to this sitch, I AGREE that our communication is NOT healthy. I am so tempted to sit down with her and just get it out in the open "If you and I are going to carry on any type of R I want to ensure it is as healthy as possible and it all starts with communication..." I don't know.
I know we are still in the early stages of our sitch and it is at her pace I just don't want to develop bad habits that can not be broke and ultimately lead us right back down this road. I also don't want W to think this is the best it can get. We could be so much better is we could just communicate better.
The best leaders lead by example.
I think it is too early for a big R discussion.
So in other words (I hope I am following you on this) I should become a better communicator myself and that will help influence her?
So in other words (I hope I am following you on this) I should become a better communicator myself and that will help influence her?
Yep. You are Nelson Mandella right now, so you have to put some white folks on your staff to set a good example.
You lead by example. If your work has any program for family therapy, now would be a good time to go by yourself.
How do I validate when W makes insecure comments about herself?
Usually I would tell my W it is wrong to feel that way because it is not true and then tell her that she is attractive. W would roll her eyes or give me a stupid look and say "well that's not how I feel" or "you made me feel like garbage for so many years"
This book I am reading has a formula the author developed that I should be adapted and my own words applied so it sounds sincere.
1. It sounds like (or, it seems) you....
paraphrase in a sentence r two what you partner's experience seems to be.
2. That must feel... Guess as to how such an experience must feel.
3. I'm sorry you feel...Guess as to what they're feeling.
I learned validation is not necessarily agreeing with what my W says but understanding that is HOW she views the situation and to validate her view point as crazy as it may be.
Wish I would had read and understood that before this morning when she threw the whole "you have an attitude line" at me again. Besides that (a rough start to the day) we has a pretty good day.
Isn't this what many forum members have been telling you all along?
Telling your W her feelings are WRONG is really not much better than you used to be with her. My H used to tell me all the time my feelings were wrong and I can tell you that it killed a ton of love and respect I had for him. I got so tired of hearing how wrong my feelings were I stopped telling him things.
My feelings were wrong when my dad died. My feelings were wrong when I got sick. My feelings were wrong when the wind blew the wrong way. It is a horrifying way to live.
I told him for close to a decade my feelings were not wrong even if he didn't agree with them. It's maddening and I can tell you do all you can do to stop it now or else your W will continue to have terrible feelings towards you.
I guess I am confused as to what you are taking away from this forum because the post you just made is the very basis of this forum (validation to improve communication).
Well for the most part I have been busting the A. Validating her feelings she has for OM was wrong.
I use to do all those things you mentioned BEFORE our sitch. Since reading DR and being on this forum I learned to validate many things W says/feels but not all. My W is sick or something is hurting nearly everyday and I validate never telling her it is wrong.
The only time I tell her the way she feels is wrong is when W tells me she wants out of the marriage and when W says she is unattractive. I need to know how to validate when W says she is unattractive rather than just saying "No, your beautiful"
Okay, well let's practice. How do you think you should validate the issues with her looks and wanting out of the marriage?
I know you are not totally sure so maybe if you practice a bit it will come more naturally when it happens with your W.
"I hear you say that you're unattractive and I that must make you feel insecure about yourself, sorry you don't see yourself for the beautiful woman you are"
Needs work...is that too pursuing?
=======================
AS for today, W went to get blood work done. W and I went and purchased a gift for W's aunt for aunt's birthday. We then went and picked up some items on our list. During this time W was once again talking about decorating rooms in the house.
Quick back story. Before our sitch and when our sitch first began (for the first month or so) W would often talk about during things around the house and if I said "We should do that what do you think?" (something along those lines) W would then flip it around and say "Up to you, I won't be her anyway) now W does not say those things...
Also W seems to had forgot many things she said a few months back but I remember all of it. For example: 4 months ago W picked out decor for a room in the house but did not purchase it. Today W looking for decor for the same room and I said "I recall you wanted this" and W would reply "Oh, did not remember doing that"
There was an instance today were I made a comment to W that enticed a response and the response she gave was "umm hmm" so I said "Our conversations could be a lot more enjoyable if we used words rather than sounds" and W's response was "I respond how I feel at the time" and not knowing what to say or want it to escalate into anything resembling an argument I just carried onto another topic knowing I stated my point.
W and I did quite a few things around the house together without incident. We hung pictures up on the wall and installed our new light fixture.
W then gave me a gift she had got me for father's day (Father to the dog that is). She decided to give it to me early since I was in need of what she got me and did not want me buying it on my own.
Sir,
Its been approximately 7 weeks of this and no strong positive affirmations for you. I guess after this going to 16 weeks should not be a problem. Keep an eye on your esteem along the way. You do not indicate that you make many errors at all, and if she ever allows it it can be about her around the house as long as you get what you need.
Your response is not really pursuing IMO but it doesn't sound quite right. Hearing and understanding are two very different things. Telling her how she "must" feel is not good either.
I think you need to look at the big picture. Your W does not take care of her health. Instead she buries her head in the sand and sleeps (the blood work is a good first step). You have caught her looking at plastic surgery sites and she wants to go on your insurance to obtain plastic surgery. IMO your W is broken in the inside and is looking for "outside" fixes to make herself feel better. That is a huge problem.
I would simply tell your W when she complains about feeling unattractive: W, sorry to hear you feel that way. Anything I can do to?
If her answer is "put me on the insurance to get work done" then you know where you stand.
If she says nothing then do nothing. Eventually your W will have to put some effort in beyond the daily activities you do. She will have to learn to manage (or change) her work schedule, her physical issues and she will have to learn to communicate better. At some point she will need to show some remorse and not act so entitled towards you.
IMO it is time for you to start turning things around a bit. Validate her feelings and give her the opportunity to come to you. If she doesn't then she doesn't. If she does, well, then we might start to see some progress.
Your response is not really pursuing IMO but it doesn't sound quite right. Hearing and understanding are two very different things. Telling her how she "must" feel is not good either.
First part listening, second part understanding. I agree that the third part does not sound too good.
Your W does not take care of her health.
Maybe this is a misinterpretation of what I have posted. W does her best to take care of her health. W goes to the doctors more times in a month than I have in the past 2 years. The issue is they (doctors) don't know exactly what is the cause for her constant headaches and sleep disorder.
I know my W's health issues could be a major contributor to our sitch but I don't really want to get into that discussion. I know she needs help and she knows it as well. It is up to my W to continue to get that help.
I would simply tell your W when she complains about feeling unattractive: W, sorry to hear you feel that way. Anything I can do to?
I like that
She will have to learn to manage (or change) her work schedule, her physical issues and she will have to learn to communicate better.
This is where we are at now. AS W has in the past she is "dealing" with the physical pain and starting to contribute more. Before I was lucky if she pulled herself out of the bed more than just go to the bathroom. Now she has become more active in maintaining the household (could have everything to do with the party on the 26th but it's a start).
W has pulled out my old "Officer of the Month" awards and the articles she clipped from the newspaper, framed them, and hung them on the wall.
COMMUNICATION is where we lack. Just not as healthy as I want it to be. I need some heavy hitting responses for when W starts using sounds to communicate with me.
IMO it is time for you to start turning things around a bit. Validate her feelings and give her the opportunity to come to you. If she doesn't then she doesn't. If she does, well, then we might start to see some progress.
Need some examples.
COMMUNICATION is where we lack. Just not as healthy as I want it to be. I need some heavy hitting responses for when W starts using sounds to communicate with me.
How about "Hunh?" Also good are: "wha?" and "hmm".
And when she tells you she is feeling unattractive, laugh and say, "Oh, now you're just fishing for compliments! You know you are beautiful!'
Need some examples PLEASE?!
I gave you the example above... you asking your W is there anything you can do. Now it is up to her to answer/provide you with info/communicate with you or not.
The reason I continue talking about your W's health issues is because as you may have read on various threads I have SLE (systemic lupus) which is a chronic and incurable disease. The physical pain, sleep issues and fatigue can be nothing short of life altering and debilitating. I understand (now more than ever) the toll it can take on a marriage for both the person suffering and the other spouse.
In an eight year span I went to the doctor 96 times with the same complaints. I understand not being able to get a proper diagnosis and living in what feels like hell.
I think you will fare better if you learn to use your resources. And I am a resource for a person who lives with a very, very painful disease and one that went through hell getting a diagnosis. If you don't want to talk about it with me that is fine but there are plenty of people who can relate and you should be talking to them.
You have been given some heavy hitting responses for when your W chooses to grunt at you. W: please stop making noises to communicate with me. It is disrespectful to me and I no longer will respond to grunts or moans as a form of communication.
If she doesn't like it.. tough! Physical pain is not an excuse for being a mute.
With the examples I was referring to when you stated...IMO it is time for you to start turning things around a bit.
I'm nit sure how to take the advice given. I have DB'd for months to get to a point where W would start coming around and doing things with me and now it is being suggested I do less things with her.
I have started and will continue to call W out when she uses sounds or communicates to in a negative way.
And I gave you examples to illustrate the point.
W: I feel unattractive.
YOU: Sorry you feel that way. Anything I can do?
You are validating her feelings and leaving the door open for her to come to you and let you know what you can do. If she says nothing, well, then it is nothing. If she communicates something to you then GREAT.
This is "turning things around a bit" because you are giving her the option to open up to you or not. If she chooses not to then do nothing. If she chooses to then you can go from there.
You have said multiple times you are asking for "heavy hitting" responses to your W's grunts. So I gave you one then you said you are already doing that. Not sure what else you are asking for.
Other than your W doing things around the house (and this is happening because she wants a party) and her doing more with you outside of the house because you ask her to what has really changed? That is why I suggested you do less with her. If she wants to keep doing things outside of the house with you then IMO you will need to see if she initiates in a way that is not riddled with entitlement or dread. She is not receptive to any form of very brief physical touch and she has not really offered you any affirmation.
Of course you can't rush things but that, IMO, is why you need to offer less and see where you are at.
Improving communication is important but as long as the underlying issues are present then eventually things will halt.
My advice to you would be as follows:
Participate in other threads. It will give you new ideas for your own situation and it's nice to offer the same that you have gotten for some time now.
Practice your validation, appreciation and communication skills here and in other areas of your life other than with your W.
Do more for you and build things in your life other than work that don't involve your W.
Step back and see if she initiates anything (it could be as simple as HER doing one nice thing for you or asking you to go somewhere that is not related to errands). IMO it is time for a temperature check. Right now she is used to the dynamic of you doing all the work, suggesting and initiating. See what happens if you cool off on that for a bit. That doesn't mean ignore or exclude her but see if she does more when you do less.
I get the feeling you see this is very black and white and it really isn't. Work in shades of gray.
Recently w has asked me if I would like to go "somewhere" whereas in the past and was all initiated by me. To be honest I have not focused on this and will begin to.
As I mentioned W is doing more than she has since sitch began. W also makes small gestures such as she poured us both a beverage (small but improvement)
I will need to start looking for these things perhapse I was over looking them.
Unless my W ask me to do something or go somewhere I will try to do more on my own but as a 180 I been giving w the option to go along with me.
Recently w has asked me if I would like to go "somewhere" .
Where would she like to go?
There is a lady in my divorce support group (her H walked out on her while having an affair) that is now in the reconciliation process. Her H has moved back home and they are both in IC and couples C'ing. Her rule of thumb is she initiates an invitation, text, phone call or e-mail ONLY after her H has initiated three. It is working beautifully for her.
Her H was just like your W... very cold, zero communication unless it suited him and seemingly miserable. My friend had very strict "rules" for him moving him (he asked to after she went dark for nearly two years, she did expose his affair but it did no good).
To her, now is the time her H should be doing lots of work and pursing her. Now is the time to see if something else will work for you. This might be something to consider.
That sounds like something I can start doing.
It is hard to explain. W and I just plan to go places or do things and thinking back I am not quite sure who initiated. I just go with the flow. There are things I still do on my own and W does too.
Going back to this post
She is not receptive to any form of very brief physical touch and she has not really offered you any affirmation.
I would not necessarily say W was receptive but she was not rejecting but there have been times where I did briefly touch W on arm or hand and she did not pull away like she had in the past. More recently I have been tempted to hold her hand in a public place but unsure if that is a constructive thing to do at this point. Would it? I don't want to pursue my W but I often wonder if she is waiting for me to initiate something.
Today I will wait for W to ask/invite me to do something. She has already alluded to a couple things but we'll see if she verbalizes them today.
For those who have followed and contributed to my thread and sitch I thank you. I started a new thread in another section thinking it would better serve our sitch ( I apologize if that offends any of you, just thought I was doing the right thing).
There has been some developments in our sitch and an embarrassment moment for my W that happened today that some of you may get a kick out of.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2023723#Post2023723